British Symbolism on Buildings in Ireland

Not buildings, I know, but many of our pillar and wall-mounted post boxes bear royal monograms.

(What’s the word I’m looking for- I know it’s not monogram? Think it begins with a D…)

The general post office in Sligo has an ER coat of arms above the main door. There is also a huge stone coat of arms sculpture at the back of the Quad in the University in Galway – I think it was taken down from the top of the courthouse in Galway. If I think of more, I will post them.

The Four Courts has a crown/standard or two.

Then there’s the bandstand in Dun laoire (perhaps not a building) which was reinstated for some bizarre and shameful reason.

Monaghan Court House
http://www.irish-architecture.com/buildings_ireland/monaghan/monaghan/courthouse_lge.html

The old quad building in UCG has a big lion and unicorn hidden in the garden behind the building: it was on the building but they took it of and hid it.

@murphaph wrote:

Is that ER as in Edvardus Rex VII, like what’s on the post boxes?

I presume so. The building would probably be from that era.

I think Baggot Street Hospital may have something like what you’re looking for – in the name written in big letters across the doorway. (I can’t remember what the full title is).

And the Royal College of Physicians (Kildare Street), Royal Dublin Society and possibly even Royal Dublin Golf Club may have something for you.

Post boxes you’ll see VR (Victoria Regina) pre 1901, ERVII (Edward VII Rex) 1901 – 1910 & GR VI (George VI Rex) 1910 to free state.

I’d take all ‘Royal’ societies as a british colonial hangover. The RDS, RCSI, Royal Automobile Society, Royal Heraldic Society etc.

There’s also a couple of nice RIC heads over the door way into Pearse st. Garda station.

The yoke in Dun Laoghaire is a metal type gazebo thing originally built for the visit of Queen Victoria. Torn down by republicans it was reinstated a couple of years ago.

I like that we still have some reminants of our past. I’m sure the Sinn Fein supporters are cursing me to death for saying that, but wheter they like it or not, it’s part of our heritage. The Australians and Canadians are really big into the whole “Royal” thing…. although Australia is still looking for it’s independance (which they turned down in a vote about five years ago, wanting to remain under Quenn Elizabeth’s rule), the country is scattered with statues of old monarchs as well as present day Elizabeth II. It’s a shame though that we don’t have any of the nice phone boxes left, I always liked those, even though they are being wiped out in the UK. And alot of old public buldings i.e. courthouses and town halls in most towns around the country would bare some type of coat of arms with a crown.

I’m with A-ha on this; the desire to remove all references to the brits on buildings, monuments, names of things, etc. makes me think of the Taliban blowing up old Buddha statues, Mao’s “cultural cleansing” efforts or other institutional attempts to hide history. Surely as a country we should now have the self-confidence to be able to view symbols of our past colonial status with, if not interest, at least indifference and not with shame or hatred/anger.

The Excise bar in the IFSC has a stone set in it’s facade ‘His Majesties Excise Office 1827″ (William IV I think). It would be a bit heavy handed to go knocking 180 year old granite plinths out of buildings to affirm independence. However, one has to decide if we are retaining these things as a recognition of our past or as a little bit of ‘Pale’ colonial snobbery. Like mentioned before, I don’t see all these societies dropping the Royal out of their names ???

“nice RIC heads”

Not so, two members of the Dublin Metropolitan Police are outside the police station.

Given that the indigenous ( i.e pre-Norman) people in the Island were not that urban – we dont have much left, archictecturally, of Irish culture. There is NewGrange ( which may have been pre-Celtic), beehive churches, a few cultural areas ( i.e. Tara) and the Rock of Cashel, monastic remains, and round towers. I may be missing stuff. If we rejected colonial architecture we would reject most of Irish castles, and churches ( as Norman). And most things since.

As it happens I prefer the older stuff, but I am partial to a norman castle nevertheless 🙂

It’s not Pale snobbery, it’s part of our heritage and these relics of auld dacency should be preserved. What happened in the 20’s was bad, what has happened since is worse. Only emerging countries with no sense of self did away with that which scared them. When Hong Kong left the Empire several of its clubs had to drop the “Royal” prefix – Jockey and Yacht spring to mind. Singapore did the same back in the 60’s. Has this ever been an issue with the RIAI?
I like the fountain “yoke” in Dun Laoghaire, it was a disgrace for the local shinner vandals to destroy it, similarly the obelisk which had one of its balls destroyed. Q. Victoria also presented a crane to “the fisherfolk of Kingstown” which was (is?) in the coal harbor and had a daily usage rate of 7/6 . However, it cost several pints to get the guy with the crane handles to turn up when last used by me in the 1970s.
Kerrybog
p.s why did the sun never set on the Empire? God did not trust the Brits when the lights were out

There is a fine set of what looks like RUC cap badges on the facade of the new Habitat on College Green (Formerly The Ulster Bank ?)

Surprised Governemnt Buildings of all places hasn’t been mentioned – the blatent nature of the inscriptions is really quite hilarious given the use of the building today, probably the most prominent British influence on a major Dublin building, and on the building where such remnants are least desirable! Brilliant 🙂

It’s not necessarily true to say that the Custom House and Four Courts feature elements of British symbolism – the coat of arms and crowns are that of Ireland – not the British Crown as is commonly percieved. The ‘Kingdom of Ireland’ or something along those lines.

Youghal in Co. Cork is a very “Anglo” town. Sir Walter Raleigh was mayor of the town in 1588 and Queen Elizabeth I visited his house which still stands today. I went to Youghal a few days back because they are having a historical week type thing. The town was chartered and given a mace like all towns and cities in Ireland, which of course, had the emblem of the United Kingdom and the seal of the monarch at the time. You’ll propably find that all of the old towns like Youghal, Kinsale and many other places all have their own maces, which were given to them by the King or Queen of the time. Ireland will never escape it’s British past, we were part of the United Kingdom for over 500 years…… it won’t all dissappear overnight. Oh and Oliver Cromwell left Ireland for the last time from Youghal Harbour…. hehehe, and people say school is a waste of time!

Court house in tralee

http://www.irish-architecture.com/buildings_ireland/kerry/tralee/courthouse.html

we were part of the United Kingdom for over 500 years

For 121 years to be exact.

You tend to be loose with your terminology, for example

lthough Australia is still looking for it’s independance (which they turned down in a vote about five years ago, wanting to remain under Quenn Elizabeth’s rule),

They rejected a republic, but I am not sure whether that republic would have stayed part of the commonwealth, or not. In any case they are not ruled by Elizabeth, but by the local parliaments.

In Seoul, the Korean destroyed almost all physical references to their Japanese colonial past, which was a shame in the sense that many buildings of architectural merit were destroyed and replaced by buildings which were relatively bland and austere are not very pleasing to the eye. As a result, there are veyr few ‘historic’ building in the city, which tends to extinguish whatever charm might exist. I find the city relatively boring in the sense that it is all glass and steel office blocks and concrete housing blocks and not much else besides.

Although I don’t know of any physical references to British rule, the name of the ‘Old English Market’ in Cork probably qualifies as a partial form of British symbolism. And of course Queen Vic was buried in UCC for many years and only recently excavated from her hidden ‘grave’ when the college marked it 150th anniversary. Not sure where she hangs out now though! In any case, she was never given pride of place. After all, this was a city which the crown forces burned to the ground.

Would not be surprised if a garrison town like Bandon had many references. The place seems more ‘English’ than any other town in Ireland. The Heritage center is located in what was Ireland’s first protestant church.

mmmmm….(why do I mostly start this way? Continue lest I regress.) A note: the person who started the thread is a prime example of current symbolism of ‘foreign’ origin being overtly present, albeit phonic. Not living on the Emerald Isle it would be interesting to know at what stage an indigenous resident used the word cheers other than when raising a glass.

Part of the zapper syndome? (Push button ‘1’ and see what you get.)

Kilmainham Court House, Kilmainham Garda station, Royal Hospital, the Richmond Tower and on what remains of the Richmond Barracks.

@corcaighboy wrote:

Although I don’t know of any physical references to British rule, the name of the ‘Old English Market’ in Cork probably qualifies as a partial form of British symbolism. And of course Queen Vic was buried in UCC for many years and only recently excavated from her hidden ‘grave’ when the college marked it 150th anniversary. Not sure where she hangs out now though! In any case, she was never given pride of place. After all, this was a city which the crown forces burned to the ground.

Queen Vic is given pride of place- she’s in a glass cabinet in the main staff common room (adjacent to the aula maxima). This statue was replaced with a statue of St. Finbarr – perched atop the aula maxima roof.
I can still remember the controversy of a few years ago when it was dug up- ridiculous.
Part iof our history is that we were ruled by Britain. There’s nothing we can do about so just embrace it.
I know this thread is NOT going down the line of ripping down ‘English’ buildings and renaming ‘English’ Streets but it reminds me of a guy on local radio in Cork a few years ago.
He was from dublin and was bemoaning the fact that in ‘Rebel’ Cork we still kept places like Wellington Road and Victoria Cross. He then went on to say that it was a shame that our Railway Station was named after a County in England!! How embarressing.
By the way, Cork train station is named KENT station!
True story!

this thread seems to be going off on a life of its own.

The fact is that we were a British colony whether we like it or not.

However there is a case for renaming streets etc in certain cases. Afetr all we did so with the train stations – Heuston, Connolly, Mallin, ceannt etc and who would argue with that? Pearse got a street and a station renamed for him. Would we prefer to sit in traffic on Great Brunswick st (as it was known)? In cases where it is fitting to commemorate a great irish man or woman then i would be 100% behind renaming a street whihc bears the trappings of our colonial past. Particularly where the streets bear the names of trueenemies of the Irish people like Camden.

It is perfectly natural for an indepenedent state to remove trappings of a misruled past. In the same way as granite swastikas were destroyed in Warsaw, Amsterdam and Paris

@lunasa wrote:

Not living on the Emerald Isle it would be interesting to know at what stage an indigenous resident used the word cheers other than when raising a glass.

I often sign off emails with it, though I think it’s a legacy of a period spent in Edinburgh rather than English influence (many Scots I know say it out loud as a parting comment, on the phone, say).
Also, I sometimes say farewell in person with a ‘cheerio’- can’t see what all the ruddy bally-hoo is, mate. 🙂

Just myself nitpicking ct, so many people are good rather than grand. It wouldn’t be so bad if it were just a question of ethics. It’s the pervasive soap culture. Push buttons one, two, three or four on the zapper. Home decoration is the same.
Me, I’m just grand thanks.

Good man, lunasa, good man.
I’m grand too, most of the time.
However, I’m never swell (‘Merikay), and don’t think I’ve ever been bonzer (‘Stroyleea), to be sure to be sure.

This bit

ruddy bally-hoo … mate

was just me trying to get as many Englishisms into as short a sentence as possible. Not a dig at your good self.

Ciao for now. 🙂

Murphaph:
I thought of ‘insignia’, but that’s not it either. It’s driving me mad now trying to remember it. Still think it starts with a D though.

Don’t think the swastika comparison holds any water.
British interests in Ireland spanned hundreds of years and like-it-or-not are largely responsible for the present fabric of the city.
The occupation of places like Paris and Amsterdam from 1940 to 1944 saw little if any building, rather the attachment of Nazi paraphenalia to pre-existing buildings.
Equally, many Nazi buildings have quite rightly been left in situ in Germany.
The argument about Seoul is a particularly good one. Had we destroyed everything built during our “occupation”, Dublin would be a very bland city.
And as previous posters said, most of these buildings were built on the instructions of an Irish parliament.
I think we should be at a stage politically and emotionally where no further royal or British insignia should ever be removed.
I would also imagine that any structures with such references are already listed.

i wouldn’t sugest we destroy everything built during the occupation – far from it – that would mean dismantling everything from Trim castle up. However some things should go and others were correctly removed.

Take the queen victoria statue outside the dail for instance. It would be utterly incongrous and at odds with the exercise of independent government in the houses of the Oireachtais to have let a statue of the figurehead of the country which denied us these rights since 1801 remain there. We gave it to the Australians as a present!

There is a major distinction to be drawn between insignia such as a crown or lion attached to buildings and statues for instance. The latter are clearly erected to memorialise individuals / events and i for one could not countenance the likes of Nelson, Victoria, Gough, William (all gone now) etc (who like it or not took hands in the subjugation of a race) looking down at me from their plinths. The odd crown attachment etc can stay as far as i’m concerned.

One last point while we consider what grand buildings the British gave us. We can have no idea of what would have built by the Irish themselves in their places had we not been colonised and our native industries, trades destroyed. Who is to say we would not have built grander and better. Afterall pre colonisation we were doing alright and had made a contribution to international architecture.

We have had eighty years of independence to add to the stock of great buildings in Dublin and haven’t done such a good job.

@dodger wrote:

Take the queen victoria statue outside the dail for instance. It would be utterly incongrous and at odds with the exercise of independent government in the houses of the Oireachtais to have let a statue of the figurehead of the country which denied us these rights since 1801 remain there.

Don’t forget that Prince Albert is still standing proundly on Leinster Lawn 😀

@corcaighboy wrote:

Although I don’t know of any physical references to British rule, the name of the ‘Old English Market’ in Cork probably qualifies as a partial form of British symbolism.

I was told by a reliable Corkonian source that it was called the “English” market because the sellers spoke English. Up until then Irish was spoken. I’m sure someone will tell me if it’s arse.

@crestfield wrote:

Don’t forget that Prince Albert is still standing proundly on Leinster Lawn 😀

wouldn’t miss him one bit if somebody was to suggest a trip for him down under. He must be missing his missus. this is a connection with the past that i’d like consigned there – to the past.

@kefu wrote:

We have had eighty years of independence to add to the stock of great buildings in Dublin and haven’t done such a good job.

That may be true but there are also good examples of talented irish architects forced to emigrate as a result of misrule – take James Hoban of Kilkenny – built the Whitehouse and the carolina statehouse. He could have been our Gandon.

@dodger wrote:

One last point while we consider what grand buildings the British gave us. We can have no idea of what would have built by the Irish themselves in their places had we not been colonised and our native industries, trades destroyed. Who is to say we would not have built grander and better. Afterall pre colonisation we were doing alright and had made a contribution to international architecture.

Dodger, sometimes you just have to accept things for what they were and move on.

ct the verb you’re looking for is emblazon, methinks there is no noun.

So there, now.

Its sad that there is a failure by some to realise that the anglo-Irish who commissioned the majority of our great buildings in the 18th-19th centuries should not be dissmissed as being British. I also don’t accsept that the influance of architects from outside Ireland is a bad thing, we are priviliged to having work by the likes of Sir William Chambers, just as today our National Gallery extension is by outside an practice and rightfully so.

I reluctantly checked thesaurus.com (I’m a proud man, don’tya know) and the word I was thinking of was ‘cipher’- to do with letters intertwined. So it would be suitable for Victoria’s monogram, but not Edward’s or George’s, both of which are standard capitals.
When I worked for the NIAH we used ‘insignia’ and ‘monogram’ interchangeably.

Thanks to all for input.

The “Irish Embassy” pub in Toronto has a big plaque outside the door declaring the building the “British Colonial Building”. 😀

Ctesiphon – not sure that you’re right ; cipher is correctly used for figures, from the French “chiffre” – number.
Lunasa – not sure that you’re right either; emblazon is when the arms are put on the building, as in “Emblazoned with the Arms of …..”
I do agree that monogrammed is done to linen, not buildings. Cannot (yet) think of the word you seek.

Escutcheon??????

With respect to the statues, I think they only bother people who let themselves be bothered by ’em. Isn’t one of the finest examples of Nazi architecture actually the former german embassy in London?

A building is not a statue. I imagine that the statue of Hitler, if any, ( and the pictures on the wall ) have been removed. And Nazi insignia too.

Should the statues of those ‘nasty’ emperors be sent back to italy for example?

People forget with time, in any case Roman imperialism was not extreme in Britain, at all, and non-existant in Germany. The fact is – too – we celebrate English leaders we like. Gladstone for instance has a few streets named after him – and generally in places where the main street has been changed to an Irish patriot.

( Had the house of lords not rejected his Home Rule proposals, we would almost certainly now be in the UK).

@Rusty Cogs wrote:

The Excise bar in the IFSC has a stone set in it’s facade ‘His Majesties Excise Office 1827″

(1821)
The first time I went down to the docklands and saw that, it was eerie. It was a very tangible feeling of being under British rule. I think it was because nothing had been done to that part of the docklands at that point (early ‘90s) – it was like stepping into the past. The effect probably wouldn’t be the same today because of the regeneration. Still, I’m sure it is a bit of an eyecatcher for people who see it for the first time.

I hope nobody has forgotten the Royal National Lifeboat Insitution (RNLI) which has a crown on it symbolising the monarchy. Every lifeboat station in the country will have that on it’s building.

I was told (by some Donegal extremely nationalist lifeboat operators) that the reason the crown is kept is because they get alot of their funding from voluntary contributions from people in English cities. The Donegal guys bemoaned the fact that the Irish people had little interest in supporting the lifeboats to the extent that the English do. Don’t know if it’s true or not, but these guys viewed keeping the crown as essential to keeping the boats servicable, whether they liked the crown being there or not.

In the TCD car park by Nassau Street there is a plaque, a bit worn, to someone who died in 1916, what makes it unusual is that this person died fighting against the rising.

on the subject of statues of nazis, sean russell in fairview park is still missing his head!

Finally got around to finding the book – it’s CYPHER, “a monogram, sometimes ensigned with a coronet of rank and used as a personal or household device.” Popular in 18th and 19th centuries when the use of armorial badges was in decline, and the new rich of the Ind. Revolution felt a need for some means of personal identity. The re-introduction of grants of badges by the College of Arms in 1906 was instrumental in stemming the tide to some extent. Cyphers are not generally subject to heraldic authority, but those of the English royal family are usually recorded at the College of Arms.
srismhh as in acciss

What’s the book, KB2?
Interesting that it’s spelled with a ‘Y’, but nice to have the confirmation. 😉

It’s “A Dictionary of Heraldry” edited by Stephen Friar, published by Harmony Books in NY. Great bedside book, full of arcane info such as the duties of theChampion of England!
KB2

I think Baggot Street Hospital may have something like what you’re looking for – in the name written in big letters across the doorway. (I can’t remember what the full title is).

Passing by it today I saw the official name in gold letters above the front door – “Royal City of Dublin Hospital”

And I don’t think The Royal Hospital in Donnybrook has been mentioned.

@corcaighboy wrote:

Although I don’t know of any physical references to British rule, the name of the ‘Old English Market’ in Cork probably qualifies as a partial form of British symbolism.

@burge_eye wrote:

I was told by a reliable Corkonian source that it was called the “English” market because the sellers spoke English. Up until then Irish was spoken. I’m sure someone will tell me if it’s arse.

I’m not an authority on this, but I think it’s called the ‘English Market’ due to the ethnicity, rather than the language, of its patrons and/or sellers.

To back up this claim, I noticed that there is a sign in Grand Parade pointing to the market. The sign is in Irish and says “Sean Mhargadh na Sacsan”.

There are also several Royal Standards and insignia around UCC, particularly on the old building in the Quad.

I never noticed this before. I think that’s the crown there on the Trinity Arch Hotel..

@murphaph wrote:

I love that bulding and I often look up at it and I’ve never noticed that crown either! It’s tiny.

😀 Yeah, I only noticed from zooming into my photographs. There’s actually two crowns there.

Hmmm interesting – never noticed them before either, just assuming them to be the marble baubles usually featured.
The crowns seem to be mutlitonal too – though that could just be the dirt 🙂

Archiseek: “modelled on the London head office of Crown Life” – if that says anything…

One of the magnificent heraldic sculptures of the Custom House:

AFAIK, it’s a Deane and Woodward building, which means Freddie O’Dwyer’s fantastic book on them should have a mention of the crown. He’s not a man to miss a detail like that. I’ll check in the library when I have a chance.
(C’mon Freddie, don’t fail me!)

As a ‘relative’ of the Crown Life building, might that have something to do with the feature? Was it perhaps a company logo?

I love those sculptures on Custom House aswell, and love getting to see ’em when I go to Dublin. If Sinn Fein had their way, they’d probably be knocked down, crushed, melted and re-made as a 1916 war memorial.

@crc wrote:

I’m not an authority on this, but I think it’s called the ‘English Market’ due to the ethnicity, rather than the language, of its patrons and/or sellers.

To back up this claim, I noticed that there is a sign in Grand Parade pointing to the market. The sign is in Irish and says “Sean Mhargadh na Sacsan”.

There are also several Royal Standards and insignia around UCC, particularly on the old building in the Quad.

The english market was for the protestatnt acendancy, who I suppose still saw themselves or others saw them as english.

The poorer catholic Irish went to the Coal Quay market. Still a bit of a market there on Saturdays and it’s still the poor relation of the two markets.

Nobody seems to have mentioned that King John’s Castle in Limerick has his coat of arms over the gate on Castle Street. Interesting considering that one of the four walls of the castle had been demolished for a social housing project in the 1940’s.

@GrahamH wrote:

Hmmm interesting – never noticed them before either, just assuming them to be the marble baubles usually featured.
The crowns seem to be mutlitonal too – though that could just be the dirt 🙂

Archiseek: “modelled on the London head office of Crown Life” – if that says anything…

One of the magnificent heraldic sculptures of the Custom House:

But is this not a representation of the arms of the Kingdom of Ireland? A scaled down version still appears on Irish coinage!

@A-ha wrote:

Youghal in Co. Cork is a very “Anglo” town. Sir Walter Raleigh was mayor of the town in 1588 and Queen Elizabeth I visited his house which still stands today. I went to Youghal a few days back because they are having a historical week type thing. The town was chartered and given a mace like all towns and cities in Ireland, which of course, had the emblem of the United Kingdom and the seal of the monarch at the time. You’ll propably find that all of the old towns like Youghal, Kinsale and many other places all have their own maces, which were given to them by the King or Queen of the time. Ireland will never escape it’s British past, we were part of the United Kingdom for over 500 years…… it won’t all dissappear overnight. Oh and Oliver Cromwell left Ireland for the last time from Youghal Harbour…. hehehe, and people say school is a waste of time!

A-ha!

Here are a few examples of those Cork maces.

The UCC mace made by WIlliam Egan, Patrick’s Street (1910)
The Castlemartyr mace with the arms of James II, c.1685
The mace of the Cork Trade Guilds, by Robert Gobel of Cork 1696
The armorials of Chales I and of the town from the mace of Youghal (1630)

and here is Robert Goble mace for Midleton c. 1700

I suppose the important thing is that we have developed our own sense of identity as modern Ireland and that we’re now sufficiently self-confident to be able to simply treat those old british symbols as a part of our history and just move on with being modern Ireland without feeling the need to demolish all the post boxes.

It’s just all part of a very rich history of various contacts (good and bad) with neighbouring countries.

As for the RNLI. I find it very odd indeed that both the UK and Ireland effectively have a charity operating our coast guard system!

Surely the RNLI should be getting heafty state funding from both the Republic of Ireland and the UK’s governments!! It’s an absolsutely vital service.

Queen Victoria Statue
Very familiar site if you’ve been to Sydney. The statue of Queen Victoria stood outside Leinster House until 1947, but was given to Australia as a gift in 1987 by the people of Ireland (after being in storage somewhere in Dublin for 50 years). A popular touist destination in Sydney is the Queen Victoria Building, and the statue is right outside that. It was made by an Irish man aswell, but I can’t think of his name.
Thanks for the pics. of all the maces’. I saw them last year in the Crawford when the Cork Silver exhibition was on. Extremely fascinating.
And Mr. X, I totally agree about the RNLI….. how they manage on donations I don’t know. It would be similar to having the fire brigade run on a charitable basis.
Did anyone mention the Royal Cork Yacht Club.

@asdasd wrote:

People forget with time, in any case Roman imperialism was not extreme in Britain, at all, and non-existant in Germany. The fact is – too – we celebrate English leaders we like. Gladstone for instance has a few streets named after him – and generally in places where the main street has been changed to an Irish patriot.

( Had the house of lords not rejected his Home Rule proposals, we would almost certainly now be in the UK).

In Cork, for instance, we have Charlotte St., Coburg St., Hanover St., York St., to name but a few, while in Dublin you have Nassau St……

Don’t forget too King Billy’s mush is on the Lord Mayor of Dublin’s gold chain. The Lord Mayor of Dublin’s coach is a briiliant left over too. All these symbols are part of our history and as has already been said shouldn’t be removed. There’s a little part of Brit blood in all of us. The Gaelic revival as wel as partial Irish independence gave precedence to this Gaelic aspect of Irish history to enhance our national identity when we were a somewhat broken and battered isolated people.

@Praxiteles wrote:

But is this not a representation of the arms of the Kingdom of Ireland? A scaled down version still appears on Irish coinage!

Not like you to miss out on a detail Praxiteles ]It’s not necessarily true to say that the Custom House and Four Courts feature elements of British symbolism – the coat of arms and crowns are that of Ireland: not the British Crown as is commonly percieved. The ‘Kingdom of Ireland’ or along those lines.[/QUOTE]

And of course that harp is now the emblem of the IAA.

Many Church of Ireland have military memorials etc too – often overlooked when thinking of crown symbolism

Pitty our current harp doesn’t have a pair of tits.

There is prudery for you!!

In the Custom House in cork, the Sign for the Customs office clearly has the Prefix “HM” in recently removed letters.

Also Much of the Naval base maintains its Royal Naval heritage(and rightly so) including the sign for the Royal Naval Hospital, and the Housing with streets named after famous Royal Naval Warships.

Was not only in 1937 that the Union Jack came down in Haulbowlin?

No they left Haulbowline in 22, but remained in Spike and Fort Carlisle and Camden until 38.

The quite interesting issue mentioned earlier about whether or not the indigenous Irish could have surpassed the architecture of the British, seems to me to have been answered in stone.

The Bank of Ireland building, the Custom House, the Four Courts, the Kings Inns, our magnificent City Hall and formerly the Royal Exchange, domestic Georgian Dublin, the foresight of the Wide Street Commissioners..all this was the work of an Irish parliament, Irish people and Irish associations.
Anglo-Irish perhaps and Protestant by definition..but does that detract from the Irish nature of the work or the Irish nature of those hwo commissioned much of it? Does anyone here consider these buildings-these wonderous buildings-as anything other than ours?

@fergalr wrote:

Anglo-Irish perhaps and Protestant by definition..but does that detract from the Irish nature of the work or the Irish nature of those hwo commissioned much of it? Does anyone here consider these buildings-these wonderous buildings-as anything other than ours?

That question demands (or perhaps risks?) a response that could be construed as political. Firstly, I do not agree with your statement that “Anglo-Irish” is Protestant by definition. In that era there were many Catholic Anglo-Irish, disparagingly called shoneens or West Brits, for their views that were seen as anti-nationalistic.
I always have believed that the reason Ireland has such a poor “Big House” stock is that the vast majority of landlords transferred most of their income/loot/ill-gotten gains (pick according to your persuasion) to maintain their lifestyle and estates off this island, particularly since the Act of Union. The subsequent lack of style in rural Ireland led to a bleakness in rural architecture; anyone who had the wherewithal to better himself had nothing to emulate or model his aspirations on. Think of the manor houses or those of yeomen in Sussex, for example, and the design impact they had on the local built environment. In the Irish vacuum there also was punitive taxation (Hearth Tax, Window Tax, Tithes, etc.), an equally punitive legislation (Penal Laws and no fixity of tenure for leaseholders) so there was not much incentive to build even a modest house. Add to that the frequent risings, invasions, rebellions, etc., and there was no incentive at all.
I agree that the great buildings from that era metaphorically are “ours” regardless of class or creed because we have inherited them in trust, to be preserved and passed on in similar or better condition. Many literally are ours because we have fought to preserve them with little or no help from anyone. It is regrettable that many Irish people rejoiced when the built heritage was burned in 1922 and there are many today who would pull down what remains because their twisted outlook regards that as a sign of British Imperialism…. it’s not so long since the “patriots” took sledge hammers to the cast-iron Victoria Fountain in Dun Laoghaire and tried to blow up the obelisk on the seafront. Not to mention poor old Nelson.
KB2

Ah for all the talk of poor Nelson..it looked like a dumpy oul’ thing and, I’ll be honest, I prefer the Spike.

The statue itself would have been moved by now if not for the bombing. Nelson has no relevance to Irish people or culture. It was suggested at one stage to replace Nelson with President Kennedy or the Sacred Heart!

What does the Spire represent again? :confused:

The arms on Monaghan (?) Court House are interesting in that they show the arms used between the arrival of the Elector of Brunswick-Lueneburg in England in 1714 to the separation of Hanover from England, Ireland and Scotland in 1837.

The arms are the usual: England, Scotland, England and Ireland. Superimposed are the arms of the Duchies of Brunswick and Lueneburg and those of the Principality of Calenberg. Superimposed on these is the Crown of Charlemange indicating that the Elector of Brunswick-Lueneburg was also Arch-Treasurer of the Holy Roman Empire

Attached is a picture of the arms which are probably more German than British.

I was just musing on this topic since I read it recently and was wondering, if you took the view that buildings that were built/commisioned by/associated with an occupier or conqueror were to be demolished what effect it would have on other countries of the world. This is the likely scenario:
1. The UK.To start with we would have the removal or destruction of the baths in Bath, Hadrians Wall (Roman),Durham Cathedral and scores of other religous buildings, the Tower of London and a score of other castles-(Norman).
2.Spain:The Alhambra,The Mosque in Cordoba,Medina el Zahra,The Aljafiera in Zaragosa,The Tower of gold in Seville (to name only 5 complexes out of many).All built by Muslim conquerors
3. All the Ottoman structures in The Middle East and Eastern Europe outside of Turkey.
4.The Serbian-built, Orthodox monasteries (Sopocani. etc) of Kosovo.
5.Everything built by the Mongol Yuan Dynasty in China
7.The Taj Mahal and the thousands of other Moghul-and earlier-buildings in India.
8. The entire centre of Helsinki..built under Russian rule.Not to mention other buildings in Estonia, Latva and Lithuania like Vilnius
Cathedral,Presidential Palace and Town Hall.
9.The Hispanic Churches and palaces in Mexico at Oaxaca, Mexico City,Gualadlupe etc etc
10. Many buildings in Budapest .especially the Castle
11. Most buildings in Prague including the University,St.Nicholas in Mala Strana and most of the churches.
12. The Castel Nuovo (and doubtless other buildings in Southern Italy) constructed by The Spanish and many churches in Naples built by the French.
13. A vast numbers of buildings in South Africa

..and that’s just the beginning of the possible list!

@Praxiteles wrote:

The arms on Monaghan (?) Court House are interesting in that they show the arms used between the arrival of the Elector of Brunswick-Lueneburg in England in 1714 to the separation of Hanover from England, Ireland and Scotland in 1837.

The arms are the usual: England, Scotland, England and Ireland. Superimposed are the arms of the Duchies of Brunswick and Lueneburg and those of the Principality of Calenberg. Superimposed on these is the Crown of Charlemange indicating that the Elector of Brunswick-Lueneburg was also Arch-Treasurer of the Holy Roman Empire

Attached is a picture of the arms which are probably more German than British.

Yep that is Monaghan Court House – taken before the Shinners burned it down (in an attempt to rid the building of its arms I believe)

@KerryBog2 wrote:

In the Irish vacuum there also was punitive taxation (Hearth Tax, Window Tax, Tithes, etc.), KB2

I was talking about this with the da a while back when we entered an old house with a very low doorway. While I argued that this was because people were smaller in those years due to poorer nutrition, he argued that there was a door tax. Is this right?

And how did you tax a hearth? By its homeliness?

Number of fireplaces, possibly?

@PTB wrote:

I was talking about this with the da a while back when we entered an old house with a very low doorway. While I argued that this was because people were smaller in those years due to poorer nutrition, he argued that there was a door tax. Is this right?

And how did you tax a hearth? By its homeliness?

At the rate of 2/- a hearth. See this for some general info.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hearth

@PTB wrote:

I was talking about this with the da a while back when we entered an old house with a very low doorway. While I argued that this was because people were smaller in those years due to poorer nutrition, he argued that there was a door tax. Is this right?

And how did you tax a hearth? By its homeliness?

Not sure about door tax but there certainly was a window tax!

People were a lot smaller – one only has to look at suits of armor to realize how small they were.
I’m not aware of there ever being a tax on doors.
Window tax was introduced in 1697. It was actually a tax on houses, scaled according to the number of windows in the house. Initially the occupier was charged 2s per year, or 4s for those with 10-20 windows, and 8s for those with more than 20 windows. In 1747 the charges were: 10-14 windows at 6d per window, 15-19 windows at 9d, and 20 or more windows at 1s. In 1825 houses with less than 8 windows became exempt. In 1851 the tax was abolished. Window tax avoidance can sometimes explain blocked windows, but blind windows could be a design feature of Georgian houses, springing from the passion for symmetry.
From http://www.building-history.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/Buildings/Houses.htm

KB2

they should remove all british symbols because its an absolute joke that another country has them on your own national buildings. It just highlights how deformed some of the people are in the political establishment here.

I guess everyone is forgetting Fusiliers Arch better known as “Traitors Gate” in the early 1900s. Traitors gate is the entrance to St. Stephens Green at the Grafton ST. end. This was erected to the Royal Dublin Fusiliers who fought with the British empire (1899-1902) in the second Boer war.

Like Maskhadov said…The wellington monument in the Phoenix Park. This celebrates the British victory at waterloo and it stands at 205 feet tall. The four bronze plaques are from cannons captured at the battle of Waterloo. They were then melted down and cast for this monument.

Was it not an allied victory at Waterloo involving Austria, Prussia, Russia, the emigé French, and the British?

Aren’t those plaques by Irish sculptors?

@Maskhadov wrote:

they should remove all british symbols because its an absolute joke that another country has them on your own national buildings. It just highlights how deformed some of the people are in the political establishment here.

I have tried to point out before on this thread that many of the armoral displays on Irish buildings -especially before 1800- are not British but are proper to the Kingdom of Ireland, irrespective of whomsoever ruled it.

Also, other displays are so diluted that they can hardly be regarded as British. Take the coat of arm on Monaghan Court House. Of 8 fields on it, only 2 are English, one is Scottish, 1 is Irish, 3 are German, and 1 (in pretence) refers to the Holy Roman Empire!!

Praxiteles, yes there was a coalition against the French

ake…I don’t know who cast them, but they are cool considering the history in them. My Dad use to bring me to the Phoenix Park as a boy and he told me about the plaques. To me it was the coolest thing ever ,besides the German graveyard in Glencree (WW2 guys), I lived near there and used to play with German toy soldiers at the time. I live in the U.S now, they never sell German soldiers, only American troops. I was born in 1970, I remember every toy shop in Ireland selling mostly German soldiers in the late 70’s.

Sorry, just made me go back to my childhood days:) 🙂

They make those German toy soldiers in Ballyvourney – lots of them!

BTW The coalition was not against the French but against the French Revolutionaries under Napoleon!

Praxiteles, I dont give a hoot about the French. You study this stuff? Since Napoleon the French have always been loosers. They love to surrender, those people.

@colm07 wrote:

Praxiteles, I dont give a hoot about the French. You study this stuff? Since Napoleon the French have always been loosers. They love to surrender, those people.

There could be something to that. It might be connected with their well known sense of national humility!

According to wiki, two of the plaques are by Hogan and Farrell.