Attic conversions – exempt development
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@esterelle wrote:
And Henno just for your information some attic conversions do not require compliance with the Building Regs (ie those where there is no fixed ladder or stairs and no structural work was involved in the conversion)
If you are any way familiar with the Building Regs then I suspect you will know precisely what works are required to make those attics which require compliance with the Regs so compliant. By the way this is not a quiz and I know that you are upset with having your mind changed on the matter of attics and planning permission.At no point was anyone talking about conversions that were NOT for habitation….
every instance i refer to above is regarding habitable conversions…oh, and you certainly have not changed my mind.. the order you linked to i svery interesting and may be very helpful in certain situations but….
as far as i am concerned, if a client comes in to me looking for an attic conversion, i will contact the local authority and ask them if it requires permission and i can guarantee you that 100% will tell me it does.. .therefore i will still prepare the planning application, but more importantly i will ensure i am engaged to supervise the likes of you carrying out the work to ensure everything is compliant with building regs.
@esterelle wrote:
Res ipsa loquitir
I presume you mean ‘Res ipsa loquitur’?
Still, I suppose at least you’re being consistent in your failings.
@ctesiphon wrote:
I presume you mean ‘Res ipsa loquitur’?
Still, I suppose at least you’re being consistent in your failings.
vous êtes trop parfait
@henno wrote:
At no point was anyone talking about conversions that were NOT for habitation….
every instance i refer to above is regarding habitable conversions…oh, and you certainly have not changed my mind.. the order you linked to i svery interesting and may be very helpful in certain situations but….
as far as i am concerned, if a client comes in to me looking for an attic conversion, i will contact the local authority and ask them if it requires permission and i can guarantee you that 100% will tell me it does.. .therefore i will still prepare the planning application, but more importantly i will ensure i am engaged to supervise the likes of you carrying out the work to ensure everything is compliant with building regs.
I would respectfully direct you through the link below to the paragraph entitled “If I have planning permission, do I need to comply with Building Regulations? This is the Cork County Council website and it shows clearly the differences between Planning Permission and the Building Regulations. Some local authorities and contributors here are still fudging the issue and trying to combine the two. They are disctinct and different and are regulated under seperate legislation. If someone gets their attic converted for storage purposes only it does not need to comply with the Regs regardless of what works were involved. It may be the most elaborate conversion ever undertaken, but this is the position. Planning permission is regulated under the planning acts and if one wants to have a dormer window that needs permission in all cases.
@esterelle wrote:
I would respectfully direct you through the link below to the paragraph entitled “If I have planning permission, do I need to comply with Building Regulations? This is the Cork County Council website and it shows clearly the differences between Planning Permission and the Building Regulations. Some local authorities and contributors here are still fudging the issue and trying to combine the two. They are disctinct and different and are regulated under seperate legislation. If someone gets their attic converted for storage purposes only it does not need to comply with the Regs regardless of what works were involved. It may be the most elaborate conversion ever undertaken, but this is the position. Planning permission is regulated under the planning acts and if one wants to have a dormer window that needs permission in all cases.
You dont need to direct me to anything, i know the difference and requirements for both and i have never suggested otherwise. Again i reiterate, i have never once in this thread refered to a non-habitable conversion.
Contributors here KNOW that habitale conversions require planning, and that these then MUST comply with building regs….
theres no fudge, muddle or confusion….
@henno wrote:
You dont need to direct me to anything, i know the difference and requirements for both and i have never suggested otherwise. Again i reiterate, i have never once in this thread refered to a non-habitable conversion.
Contributors here KNOW that habitale conversions require planning, and that these then MUST comply with building regs….
theres no fudge, muddle or confusion….
But there you go again creating the fudge. You have absolutely no basis for what you say. The Board Order sets out the position. You are not accepting it and you are trying to tie planning and building regs together.
@esterelle wrote:
But there you go again creating the fudge. You have absolutely no basis for what you say. The Board Order sets out the position. You are not accepting it and you are trying to tie planning and building regs together.
OK, I WILL MAKE THIS SIMPLE FOR YOU.
1. According to my local authority, nearby local authorities, and building control officers… habitable attic conversions need planning. Therefore everytime a client requests one, i will make a planning application!!! Im not about to embark on a crusade for you or anyone else in your position.
2. Habitable conversions MUST comply with building regulations. These can be life or death measures.
IS THAT CLEAR ENOUGH?
@henno wrote:
OK, I WILL MAKE THIS SIMPLE FOR YOU.
1. According to my local authority, nearby local authorities, and building control officers… habitable attic conversions need planning. Therefore everytime a client requests one, i will make a planning application!!! Im not about to embark on a crusade for you or anyone else in your position.
2. Habitable conversions MUST comply with building regulations. These can be life or death measures.
IS THAT CLEAR ENOUGH?
Have to agree.
If in doubt apply for a Section 5, you’ll soon be told whether it is exempt or not. 😉
@parka wrote:
Have to agree.
If in doubt apply for a Section 5, you’ll soon be told whether it is exempt or not. 😉
Not the case. Why? Because Bord Pleanala have said so in their Board Order 28.RF.0784, a habitable attic conversion. Not development according to them. Therefore no planning required. Sorry guys you are wide of the mark on this one. No S5 declarations required where works involving “no development” is concerned.
Planning and Building Regs separate. I agree that compliance with Building Regs is required with many habitable conversions. Explanation of what is required in terms of the Regs given in the DOE document found through the link below.if there was a yawning smilie I’d insert it
stop feeding the troll
@wearnicehats wrote:
if there was a yawning smilie I’d insert it
stop feeding the troll
Nice one “wearnicehats” I have had a look at all my competitors sites (attic convertors) to see what they say and I have yet to find one that agrees with the line adopted by you guys. Interesting agenda though for whatever reason.
@henno wrote:
OK, I WILL MAKE THIS SIMPLE FOR YOU.
1. According to my local authority, nearby local authorities, and building control officers… habitable attic conversions need planning. Therefore everytime a client requests one, i will make a planning application!!! Im not about to embark on a crusade for you or anyone else in your position.
2. Habitable conversions MUST comply with building regulations. These can be life or death measures.
IS THAT CLEAR ENOUGH?
Well, they would say that, wouldn’t they. And what should a Bldg Control officer know about planning? Not that I have ever met one. There is a very good article by the late David Keane in “Irish Architect” about exemption. It was probably about ten years ago, but is still largely relevant.
@goneill wrote:
Well, they would say that, wouldn’t they. And what should a Bldg Control officer know about planning? Not that I have ever met one. There is a very good article by the late David Keane in “Irish Architect” about exemption. It was probably about ten years ago, but is still largely relevant.
ok, disregard the fact that i mentioned ‘local authorities’ altogether…..
my local building control officer is also part of the enforcemnet section, so he IS the exact person to ask…
@henno wrote:
ok, disregard the fact that i mentioned ‘local authorities’ altogether…..
my local building control officer is also part of the enforcemnet section, so he IS the exact person to ask…
These days local authorities are in the business of making a few bob. Unless you show them that planning is not needed they will say it is. Its a bit like the parking meters which are not in use on Sundays. Yet people put in money. What does the LA do with that? Give it to charity. I think not. What you are doing by applying for permission for developments which dont need it is effectively paying the LA to facilitate your neighbours to object to things they have absolutely no right to object to. People should wise up. Money is scarce and giving it away to your local planning authority will not get you very far. They will not even say thanks for it these days.
But I do not blame people who are confused, the issues we have discussed here should be on the DOE web pages. But they are not and each authority is allowed do its own thing. Whats “not development” in one county is “not development” in any county but will your local planner tell you that? No he / she will not. Thats why you must arm yourself with all relevant documents before you make contact with them. And if you dont need to make contact, then steer clear of them. It will probably save you a lot of money, time and frustration. Thats all I will say on this matter. Its been ventilated sufficiently I think.Well, if you meant your local Planning Enforcement Officer, it would have been better to describe his/her as such, rather than by one of his other titles, I can hardly think of any examples of a planning authority telling me something didn’t require permission, although there was one notable case where they told a developer that permission for a change of use was not required, when it turned out that it did. That was an expensive mistake.
If I were doing an attic conversion I would be very careful to appraise the client of the disagreement surrounding this matter. I mean, if you put the client to the cost of putting an advertisement (or two) in the paper, preparing six sets of drawings, and hanging around for three months or twelve, you would want to be pretty sure that it was necessary. In the current climate there a lot of people turning quite nasty and if your advice were to lead for example to delayed or cancelled sale……
there are too many people in this world who expect to be told what to do
anyway, now that esterelle has had her/his/its final say I would like to have mine. Simply put, whilst you might be able to gloss over the grey area that exists betweeen planning and building regs and between planning and attic conversions, there is absolutely no grey area between attic conversions and building regulations.
Anyone thinking of converting their attics must read this document issued by the Department of the Environment
you can quote ABP decisions until the cows come home but the requirements to protect your family are quite clear, regardless of whether you needed planning or not so there’s a very clear process here
1. do you want to convert your attic?
2. If yes you should discover what needs to be done to meet the building regulations above document either in discussions with an appropriate professional. Most people won’t pay for this and / or ignore the advice but, again, it’s up to youThis process might, for example, show up the need for velux windows that are suitable for escape – a much different animal altogether
3. You might want to consult with your local authority to garner their opinion on whether the work needs planning. DCC for example hold clinics and it’s free. Contrary to what goneil says above, the €40 they’d get isn’t much of an incentive. If they do advise that planning is required (at the front, side or rear, especially for escape standard windows) the decision to do so is, again, up to you
4. consult an attic conversion “professional”. There are hundreds of them out there and it’s a total minefield. I found a very good guy via word of mouth from other architects
Ask them about the building regs. Ask them about planning. If you don’t get replies that tie in with the above think very hard about using them. If they don’t know the basics then who knows what they’re doing up there. It’s up to you
IF you do find someone who appears to know what they’re doing and you have decided to comply with the building regs then get them to quote for the whole package. If they don’t want to then you can decide to try someone else or get a separate contractor to do the rest. Or not bother. Up to you
As I said before I don’t do domestic work, run a mile from it in fact – but the nature of my propfession is that friends ask me advice off camera and I make a point of knowing the facts or else I don’t give an opinion
The property market is changing. It is no longer a seller’s market. I have done several (free) Opinions of Compliance on Planning and on Compliance with Building regs for friends and family. In one case I refused as it didn’t comply and wrote a letter explaining why. The decision was then with the vendor – and they chose not to address the issues. The sale fell through and the house is still for sale. This was the ultimate decision and, in the end, it wasn’t up to them
caveat emptor – a little knowledge is – in this case, literally, a dangerous thing
@wearnicehats wrote:
there are too many people in this world who expect to be told what to do
anyway, now that esterelle has had her/his/its final say I would like to have mine. Simply put, whilst you might be able to gloss over the grey area that exists betweeen planning and building regs and between planning and attic conversions, there is absolutely no grey area between attic conversions and building regulations.
Anyone thinking of converting their attics must read this document issued by the Department of the Environment
you can quote ABP decisions until the cows come home but the requirements to protect your family are quite clear, regardless of whether you needed planning or not so there’s a very clear process here
1. do you want to convert your attic?
2. If yes you should discover what needs to be done to meet the building regulations above document either in discussions with an appropriate professional. Most people won’t pay for this and / or ignore the advice but, again, it’s up to youThis process might, for example, show up the need for velux windows that are suitable for escape – a much different animal altogether
3. You might want to consult with your local authority to garner their opinion on whether the work needs planning. DCC for example hold clinics and it’s free. Contrary to what goneil says above, the €40 they’d get isn’t much of an incentive. If they do advise that planning is required (at the front, side or rear, especially for escape standard windows) the decision to do so is, again, up to you
4. consult an attic conversion “professional”. There are hundreds of them out there and it’s a total minefield. I found a very good guy via word of mouth from other architects
Ask them about the building regs. Ask them about planning. If you don’t get replies that tie in with the above think very hard about using them. If they don’t know the basics then who knows what they’re doing up there. It’s up to you
IF you do find someone who appears to know what they’re doing and you have decided to comply with the building regs then get them to quote for the whole package. If they don’t want to then you can decide to try someone else or get a separate contractor to do the rest. Or not bother. Up to you
As I said before I don’t do domestic work, run a mile from it in fact – but the nature of my propfession is that friends ask me advice off camera and I make a point of knowing the facts or else I don’t give an opinion
The property market is changing. It is no longer a seller’s market. I have done several (free) Opinions of Compliance on Planning and on Compliance with Building regs for friends and family. In one case I refused as it didn’t comply and wrote a letter explaining why. The decision was then with the vendor – and they chose not to address the issues. The sale fell through and the house is still for sale. This was the ultimate decision and, in the end, it wasn’t up to them
caveat emptor – a little knowledge is – in this case, literally, a dangerous thing
There are may items in the wearnicehats contribution which require comment and clarification but I will wait a week or so in order to let everyone else have their say
Contrary to what goneil says above, the €40 they’d get isn’t much of an incentive.
Did I say they do it for the money?
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