Architectural legacy of the Celtic Tiger ?
- This topic has 24 replies, 12 voices, and was last updated 20 years, 3 months ago by Roy.
March 5, 2003 at 10:08 am #706063Luke GardnierParticipant
Sunday Times February 23rd â€“ Justin Oâ€™Brien.
â€œThe modern party (FF) have squandered the fruits of the boom without leaving a legacy of work in architectural or legislative formâ€
Leaving aside the legislative debate I have to agree on the architectural assessment.
March 5, 2003 at 10:36 am #725048
I agree, one thing Haughey had an eye and a genuine interest for was architecture. Some great jobs initiated by him the early 90s.. Grand refurbishments of Royal Hospital, IMMA, Dublin Castle, Government Buildings etc.. What have we to show for Celtic Tiger… National Stadium, Connference Centre, Metro.. New Carlton??????
March 5, 2003 at 11:04 am #725049SimonParticipant
Spot on Charlie.
Legacy = Office blocks, gated mansion type developments, miriad of private golf courses, holiday homes and 18,000 one off houses in 2002 alone – not one ‘grand project’ ala Waterfront Hall, Odyssey Areana etc.
March 5, 2003 at 4:18 pm #725050
Well noone can ever say Bertie and Metterand ever have/had anything in common!
I doubt we’ll ever see any “grand projets” in Dublin to mark his legacy (besides missed opportunites obviously…)
March 5, 2003 at 4:30 pm #725051
Ah lads don’t forget Croke Park – that wonderful stadium unused for most of the year run by a bunch of bigots who classify rugby as a foreign game (although invented by someone who was half Irish half Welsh) but not American Football invented by Hirem J. Hackencracker III (or some well known Irisah name)
March 5, 2003 at 4:37 pm #725052
But lets not be too hasty, we are getting Luas, The Spire, HARP, Museum at Collins Barracks, a more sensible Spencer Dock scheme (boring but not as alien as the previous proposal), etc, I agree that there is a lot more that needs to be done but give it time…
Dont forget Haughey’s legacy Tribunal after Tribunal. Just like Mitterand the guy is dodgy as hell although he has an interest in architecture. Hitler – he had some great plans drawn up for Germania in the Centre of Berlin by Speer, nobody’s saying spot on Adolf.
March 5, 2003 at 5:09 pm #725053
ah Rory, Charlie was no Hitler, you’re getting carried away.
Corruption is and was a part of European life. Look at Haughey’s opposite numbers, Mitterand, Kohl, Anderotti….
All were in the soup with something or the other.. The last I heard Anderotti was going to prison.. And then what about Papandriou of Greece????
Irish people tend to think Charlie was exceptional… Yeah maybe for creating and kickstarting the tiger, at least he appreciated architecture unlike bbbbertie
March 5, 2003 at 5:14 pm #725054fjpParticipant
Excuse me, but Haughey can go screw himself. The worst thing is that there’ll be people singing his praises when he dies. I’m no expert, but I believe there is a theory in criminology that explains how criminals justify their crimes by affirmation of all the “good things” they’ve done. Classic Haughey…
Projects: there were plenty of proposals, but look at the delays placed on the Spike alone through objections. Could they have actually got away with more???
March 5, 2003 at 5:32 pm #725055
Eh – I don’t get where Haughey comes off as divine or good just because he had a thing for renovating a few buildings (including one vanity project that was to be his own bloody office). I’m not criticising these projects either – Dublin is immeasurably improved by having them. But I think Dublin and our country as a whole is disimproved by what that man did (as has largely gotten away with).
Bertie cannot claim anything for the Luas – he hardly did anything to stop the sprawl in two storeysemidetatched Dublin – if there was abit of vision on his part maybe we wouldn’t all have to get in our cars and drive from our bungalow in Lucan to our jobs in campus style offices in Sandyford. Luas is being offered reactively – not proactively.
I think the attitude of the public too might have something to do with our lack of “grand projets” – I can see the French public all agreeing about something for the “civic greatness” and benefit to their society – a bit of altruism if you will – but just look at the moaning and complaining of the public about the spike when it was proposed.
March 6, 2003 at 9:39 am #725056
I know that Haughey was not Hitler obviously, but they both were interested in Architecture very few people will say “Oh the former Reich Air Ministry building, what a wonderful part of Hitler’s legacy” for example. Just because somebody was into architecture doesn’t make them a good person or out weight some of the things that they have done.
We have a lack of vision from the Government insofar as there is no strong leader (in the same way that CJH was a leader) who pushed for things because they wanted them. Politics have moved so much to the centre ground that everyone is trying to please everyone else all of the time. Tough decisions are not being made.
March 6, 2003 at 10:18 am #725057
Well – nearly all the tough decisions: jet or no jet – that is the question…
March 6, 2003 at 10:49 am #725058
Well they do need something to get to off licence openings…
If they are travelling in Ireland they should travel by public transport – see then how quickly things would turn around.
March 6, 2003 at 10:56 am #725059J. SeerskiParticipant
Does anyone ever consider the absence of great buildings owing to the corruption in the eighties?
Also, Stalin had a great architectural legacy – and look at the state of Eastern Europe and Russia now!
Our great buildings derive from a time when over ninety per-cent of Ireland was excluded from having any say in anything. Perhaps legacies are the preserve of despots…
Finally, how could you say that the Luas is an architectural legacy??????? The mind baffles….
March 6, 2003 at 11:07 am #725060
But Haughey doesnt have an architectural legacy. His pet projects like at Government Buildings, the Royal Hospital and Dublin Castle and Temple Bar involved renovating and giving purpose to other peoples buildings. It may well be argued that he has left a ‘cultural’ legacy in regards to the IMMA, tax breaks for artists, and vocal support for the arts, but I dont think there are any physical monuments to the Haughey years.
In fact I would be argued that Lemass was the last Taoiseach to leave an actual architectural legacy behind. Certainly Bertie has absolutely no inclination or imagination in that area. Bertie just wants to be seen as a good ‘manager’ or ‘chief executive’. I dont think the astethic look of the country is of any interest to him.
March 6, 2003 at 11:17 am #725061AnonymousParticipant
except for the stadium of course, obviously he considers landsdowne to be an embarrassment …
March 6, 2003 at 11:37 am #725062
What stadium…. I havent seen any stadium yet.. 🙂
March 6, 2003 at 12:02 pm #725063AnonymousParticipant
good point ! god knows when we’ll see one either …
March 6, 2003 at 12:36 pm #725064
Yeah big projects require a big personality (and maybe just a dash of corruption). These days every Joe Soap and a certain Heritage body lodge objections to almost anything and everything in the name of public interest. I guess the trade off for having a say in things is that nothing gets done, is is dramtically scaled back or diluted in form! I agree that the “grand projets” of this country happened when the majority had no say at all.
I agree that Haughey has no architecture to speak of – culture was his thang – we have him to thank for Temple Bar remember?!? Otherwise there would have been a lovely functional underground bus station (Dublin Bus user speaking) instead of the vomit we have today.
Meanwhile in modern times… The Tate modern was funded by Lottery money in the UK – where does our Lottery money go??? (Besides political slush funds)
Collins Barracks is still only partially developed for example.
March 6, 2003 at 3:37 pm #725065
What I was trying to say is this country is crying out for strong leadership, not bbbbbbbbbertie or Garret dithering, being all things to all men. At least Charlie showed leadership, and wasn’t afraid to make decisions, whether you liked him or not, we live in a free country! With strong leadership come better things.
March 7, 2003 at 12:09 pm #725066J. SeerskiParticipant
Leadership? Haughey? Ha Ha!
He had no leadership qualities – he tried to emulate Mitterand – and he failed. The most memorable artwork from his era was the floozie – and where is it now……..?
He abolished the Metropolitan Streets Commission – which planned to rejuvinate O’Connell Street – in 1987. Some leadership…
March 7, 2003 at 12:28 pm #725067
Thats true, I remember the plans published by the Fitzgerald government to pedestrianise College Green and Westmoreland Street. they were pretty radical and would have been a great project during the 1988 Millennium.
March 8, 2003 at 4:48 pm #725068AkenParticipant
The problem with building any grand projects to day are manyfold.
Most projects would be held up by objections by small minded people who cant embrace change for years. (I’m still in shock the spire made it past the drawing board, and only 3 years after it was planned)
So if the project isn’t scraped at the inital stages (after spending large amounts of money aswell, national stadium springs to mind) everybody will be up in arms about spending money on whatever it is. I find this strange as over the last few years the country has been making money hand over fist.
Hitler could only have these buildings built because he was a curel leader, the people were terrified of him, Most Great projects were undertaken in a time when the rich were rich and thw poor had nothing. Even back in the eighties th epeople were more worried about their jobs than Charlie’s office.
I dont know what the solution to this is but it is ture at in an era where irelands economy was at its peak there is little to remind us of it in the future.
March 10, 2003 at 9:25 am #725069GregFParticipant
Very sad to see that all we have to show for the legacy of the Celtic Tiger in regards of public art and amenities is a Spire, a Swimming Pool and a delayed LUAS public transport system. Oh dear……where did all the billions of punts/Euro go…..maybe a tribunal is required!
March 10, 2003 at 11:01 am #725070
I watched an excellent programme on BBC2 (via BBC3) on Sunday afternoon called Dreamspaces. Anyone catch it? It featured Antwerp in Belgium, reporting on how a visionary and daring city council have rejuvenated the city and created some pretty fantastic new buidlings all in sympathy to the historical look of the city. It was very interesting..well worth catching next week. And definately a great example of what can be done with vision, willpower and good managment.
March 10, 2003 at 8:50 pm #725071RoyParticipant
Was in Antwerp recently, some parts could still do with some attention, but considering that it’s golden ages is longer passed than Dublin’s, they’ve kept a decent amount of the town pleasant and interesting. The main railway station in particular is terrific.
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