An Taisce – the béte noire of our concrete dreams

Originally posted by anto

Now Minister Martin Cullen has promised another lap dog to guard our environment. But, sorry Brigadier, what we needed all the time was a Rottweiler.

Thanks Anto Patricia’s article was beyond my eye-line. I concur entirely with her prognosis, adding two short observations.

1. I really enjoyed working at Tailors Hall and it was only upon entering my next employment that I valued the freindships I had established.

2. Martin Cullen PD can award the National Trust to a few mates in Mohair suits but it won’t be recognised by either IUCN the world national trusts association or the EU who use An Taisce to keep an eye on this appalling government. The last person I heard referred to as a Rothwieller was Michael McDowell PD and he has had the effect of an poodle.

“But for all that, I think we’ve been very unfair to the only independent environmental watchdog we’ve known. I certainly don’t think An Taisce was enormously successful, and looking at the state of the Lough Derg shoreline today, I’m inclined to think they failed miserably, but the thing is, they tried. They were probably too altruistic altogether for their own good and for the earthy ambitions of the nation. “

who the fuck is this talking this shit…!!!!! the only thing wrong with lough derg’s shore line is it was sold to foreigners years ago underneath the natives. there is a lot of bord na mona peat in lough derg… i know this cos i swam in it a few years ago and all the bottom is peat… nothing wrong with the shore line at all..there is a lot wrong within the lake. but the shannon thing that was introduced last year…this was jackeen bollox at it’s finest from a jack taoiseach…. what the hell is the story!!!! nobody can sell land beside the shannon??????? wha the fuck use is it then? it again is people with over inflated opunions of them selves talking absolute and utter shit.
saying an taisce have a bad rep….. of course they do!!! unless u have money to shut them up… i think the article mentioned is trying to protray an taisce as the victim when in actual fact they victimise everyone in this country to there bullshit…sorry disapora but i had a celebration when an taisce didn’t get funding this year because it means that everyone outside the pale doesn’t have to be subjected to the shit talk ye d4’ers spout to save the “countryside”. what bollox i shout from every roof top. if you came to ireland( i don’t consider the pale to be ireland) outside from every bank holiday then you may know different. it is the reason that every t.d. is scared shitless.

I would imagine that the day ruralites pay a fair share of the tax revenue used to pay for their motorways and to clean up their pollution is the day they can give out about those of us living in the Greater Dublin Area. Grow up; you make yourself look like a fool and make others think that everyone from the country side is a fool as well.

Ya, lets throw up a tudor style housing estate on the burren and show them interfering jackeens. God sake Fin, grow up, im originally from as rural a community as you can get and its quite glaringly obvious we’re destroying the place, take your blinkers off!

what motorways? all the motorways my good man are in the dublin area….time for you to come outside and see. and as for pollution????? hmmmmm!!!! where do i start on that one!!!!

and mob79…no need why not in kildare for “the greater dublin area”…. or meath or wicklow… the burren is an international protected area so couldn’t really if u wanted to!!!! besides it’s all bloody rock so it wouldn’t pay…
the reason i went off in a rant other than alcohol was that an taisce seem to think they have the divine right to interfere with the business of the countryside. this is wrong and is partly the reason for the dramatic decline in agriculture as a viable industry.the tone of the message is an insult to everyone who is or was from “the country”.

I hate saying this but when you see some of the grossly ignorant destruction of the countryside by its residents i feel the need for someone to please interfere (and yes i know its not often balanced interfering, but is anyone else objecting?). It’s just unfortunate it has to come from Dublin further fueling such a passionate divide i can’t really understand.

no argument there from me. i agree that some is terribly offensive on the eye but it’s the blanket approach to objecting that has angered everyone.

Your dead right FIN as with your previous opinions of those stupid old Georgian buildings up in Dublin that should be pulled down, the countryside is there to be fully abused… err, I mean used …lets get those sprawling suburban housing estates built in the burren and the bogs. Let’s get that road through the Hill of Tara too. I do hope they will build that incinerator down there by the lakes of Killarney and a much needed landfill site for Dublin would be a welcome there too.

Jasus , but you really do come across as being very young and naive FIN!
Start reading those architecture, history and environmental books.

what?

Correct me if I’m wrong here, but the M7 is in Kildare and Laois and is being extended to fill the gap, the M4 is in Kildare and is being extended westward, the M3 will be in Meath and Westmeath, half of the M1 is in Louth, the M11 and N11 dual carriageways are in Wicklow and Wexford, the M8 will be in Tipperary and Limerick. Dublin has the M50 (tolled) and part of the M1 (tolled).

And it’s not Dubliners’ shit that’s polluting the groundwater in the West of Ireland. Ours doesn’t smell, you’ll find.

and only one u mentionied not connecting dublin with it’s satelite towns… and none going too far out into the wilderness.

ans what groundwater is getting polluted? and ur shit doesn’t smell!!!!! hmmmmm!!!!

An Taisce can be criticised for essentially 2 things:

– Disaffecting the pros:

An T appear to view development – any development – anywhere – as a kind of disease to be resisted, but if implemented, cured by alterations so as to satisfy a prejudiced concept of what should be where, everywhere. Negative, negative, negative. Even where their lordships deign to approve what might be put up, it’s never without a side swipe at some deemed inadequacy. Yep I like some 200 year old stuff, but I would knock as much as I like. Just cos it’s old doesn’t make it worth keeping. Taken to the limit it means that once something is up, then nothing can replace it, or be added to it. A doctrinaire approach to adaptation and development of old stuff doesn’t help.

– Disaffecting the proles

When dealing with rural blight, the clever, as opposed to the momentarily pleasing, thing for An T to do was not to lecture and harangue ‘the great wide people of Ireland’ etc, but to pressure the planning authorities to implement their own rules. As Fin says, the cussed thing about recent controversies is that An T’s methods have had the result of imperilling the implemenation of those policies – most folks believe that they are An T’s policies.

It ain’t what you do but the way that you do it.

Originally posted by Non-Taiscist
An Taisce can be criticised for essentially 2 things:

– Disaffecting the pros:

An T appear to view development – any development – anywhere – as a kind of disease to be resisted, but if implemented, cured by alterations so as to satisfy a prejudiced concept of what should be where, everywhere. Negative, negative, negative. Even where their lordships deign to approve what might be put up, it’s never without a side swipe at some deemed inadequacy. Yep I like some 200 year old stuff, but I would knock as much as I like. Just cos it’s old doesn’t make it worth keeping.

I advise you to visit any Local Authority office and examine any An Taisce observation that was submitted. All observations are carefully considered by built environment professionals and only specific grounds of objection are raised. The ‘ Negativity’ that you speak of represents less than 5% of all applications submitted. The article upon which this discussion is based deals with some bad planning decisions going through with the other 95% of applications describing some of them as An Taisce’s ‘Sins of ommision in the absence of intervention’ This strand of your theory could be dealt with as the ‘Micro level’

Originally posted by Non-Taiscist
Yep I like some 200 year old stuff, but I would knock as much as I like. Just cos it’s old doesn’t make it worth keeping.

I believe Mary Finan is looking for Staff at Wilson Hartnell PR, you should apply since Fergus Finlay left, they have been looking for a senior political analyst.

Originally posted by Non-Taiscist
Taken to the limit it means that once something is up, then nothing can replace it, or be added to it. A doctrinaire approach to adaptation and development of old stuff doesn’t help.

Now we turn to the Macro level, the Irish approach to the environment has been appawling and it has deteriorated significantly with Martin Cullen’ appointment. The only doctrine of this administration is power at all costs. An Taisce are far from doctrinal the organisation possess many diverse policies all of which are promoted upon the basis of merit.

–

Originally posted by Non-Taiscist
Disaffecting the proles

When dealing with rural blight, the clever, as opposed to the momentarily pleasing, thing for An T to do was not to lecture and harangue ‘the great wide people of Ireland’ etc, but to pressure the planning authorities to implement their own rules. As Fin says, the cussed thing about recent controversies is that An T’s methods have had the result of imperilling the implemenation of those policies – most folks believe that they are An T’s policies.

It ain’t what you do but the way that you do it.

Why do most people think they are An Taisce’s policies?

There are two simple reasons, Firstly it is because this government has had to be dragged kicking and screaming into the European Court to implement many important EU environmental directives.

Secondly it is because when these directives are implemented and voted upon by government they are directly opposed by the SAME politicians on the ground. Constituents are advised cynically by politicians that it is An Taisce’s observation of a breach of National Law that is the blockage. When in fact breaches of environmental regulation are not tolerated in other juristictions.

The article is entirely correct, it really is a pity that so few people in Ireland stand up for the built and Natural environment, not all of whom are members of An Taisce. We all continue because we care not because we want power or popularity, but because on specific issues we feel that decisions require careful consideration. 🙂

Would dubliners loose that superior attitude towards the rest of Ireland. We are ALL IRISH. The British look down on the Irish, we don’t need our own people looking down on us. Just because Dublin has been given EVERYTHING dose’nt make them better people. I am so sick of paying tax for the people of Dublin to have good facilities, roads etc, while I have to drive on what are literally dirt tracks. I want to go to a concert I have to travel for three hours, I want to go to the theatre I have to drive for three hours, I want to see a sporting event I have to drive for three hours etc,etc. By the time you can travel from one major point to another on motorway standard roads, which are by the way planned for years, I believe I will be long gone, at the rate it’s going. Luas tram for Dublin Couple of billion, new underground for Dublin proposed 2 billion, new interchange and upgrading for the M50) 600 million, port tunnel nearly 1 billion, while I travel on what simply are lethally dangerous so called roads which have’nt changed since the horse and cart. The East of Ireland has modern european infraustructure while the majority of the rest of Ireland simply dose’nt have infraustructure full stop. How can the rest of Europe have good infraustructure and facilities throughout there Country?? Simply European grants that where intended for outside Dublin have been used in Dublin, corruption I say. The county I live in has 120,000 people but has only two, yes two good stretches of road that total about 20 miles???. One good stretch had too be resurfaced badly for two miles but they could only afford to resurfact 1 mile of it, a joke or what. The town I live in has NOT ONE childrens play ground, bet theres plenty in Dublin, probably one for every couple of thousand kids. This Country needs radical change quickly or everywhere outside Dublin will not develop and will be stuck in the past forever.
FEDERAL GOVERNMENT FOR IRELAND NOW, IT’S THE ONLY FAIR WAY.

i grew up in west cork and thats a good example of both good and bad efforts to add to/ destroy the environment. You are caught between a rock and a hard place…wasnt so long ago you coulodn’t throw a stone for hitting a sign saying built with/made possible by etc etc the EU or EEC!!!
now everyone and their dog remotely involved in building or land wants to be a mogul so bungalows and such are all over the place. we do need a conservation wing with a bark and a bite. we need better distribution of the EU money and we need to stop bitching at each other about bogmen vs dubs!!!
its a beautiful place but people litter all over the island…and thats a disgrace

Originally posted by Sean Carney
Would dubliners loose that superior attitude towards the rest of Ireland. We are ALL IRISH. The British look down on the Irish, we don’t need our own people looking down on us. Just because Dublin has been given EVERYTHING dose’nt make them better people. I am so sick of paying tax for the people of Dublin to have good facilities, roads etc, while I have to drive on what are literally dirt tracks.

I know I also blame Thatcher for the demise of Welsh Rugby, life must be tough in Cardiff.

Originally posted by Sean Carney
I want to go to a concert I have to travel for three hours, I want to go to the theatre I have to drive for three hours, I want to see a sporting event I have to drive for three hours etc,etc. By the time you can travel from one major point to another on motorway standard roads, which are by the way planned for years, I believe I will be long gone, at the rate it’s going.

Whats wrong with the train?

Originally posted by Sean Carney
Luas tram for Dublin Couple of billion,

800m and thats twice the original estimate

Originally posted by Sean Carney
new underground for Dublin proposed 2 billion,

1bn as found by the oireachtas transport sub-commitee to be the only viable method of connecting all existing networks effectively.

Originally posted by Sean Carney
new interchange and upgrading for the M50) 600 million, port tunnel nearly 1 billion,

The M50 figue is correct and a disgrace considering sections built in the past decade require further investment. But the Port Tunnel was the best infrastructural investment in the history of the EU funds, why should central Dublin suffer from 80% of Irelands ro-ro export traffic?

Originally posted by Sean Carney
while I travel on what simply are lethally dangerous so called roads which have’nt changed since the horse and cart. The East of Ireland has modern european infraustructure while the majority of the rest of Ireland simply dose’nt have infraustructure full stop. How can the rest of Europe have good infraustructure and facilities throughout there Country??

Because they have a higher population density to justify more blue lines on the map. The current scenario of Co Meath getting 4 seperate motorways is a sop to boreen minded ‘poor mouth crying populists like ur gud self.

Originally posted by Sean Carney
Simply European grants that where intended for outside Dublin have been used in Dublin, corruption I say. The county I live in has 120,000 people but has only two, yes two good stretches of road that total about 20 miles???. One good stretch had too be resurfaced badly for two miles but they could only afford to resurfact 1 mile of it, a joke or what. The town I live in has NOT ONE childrens play ground, bet theres plenty in Dublin, probably one for every couple of thousand kids.

Try visiting one of Dublins Mansions, they have playgrounds, c/w broken glass, used hypodermics especially for the local children.

Originally posted by Sean Carney
This Country needs radical change quickly or everywhere outside Dublin will not develop and will be stuck in the past forever.
FEDERAL GOVERNMENT FOR IRELAND NOW, IT’S THE ONLY FAIR WAY.

Just as Europe integrates, why not be locale about it and declare independence for every parish, we could have 365 reps for the UN and declare Irish the national langauge of over 50% of the worlds nations.

What has all the above to do with The National Trust for Ireland, who have their largest concentrations per capita well outside the pale.:D

Theyre looking for money from me now. I suppose with good conscience I can’t refuse. I joined to see what all the fuss was about but I havent heard a dickiebird from them since, which is a great pity. It does make you think it is one of these organisations for the few (like the Student union!) and thats a shame. SOMEBODY has to do their job! Its is an undeniable fact. But who. Councillors in Clare who want them delisted to make the planning process ‘more democratic’. Councillors in Kerry who push through Section 140s like they were going out of fashion while the planners despair and head off to more sensible climes. Duchas? Ooops too late its had the chop. Maybe Martin Cullen would like the job…. never was their such a fairminded minister with a balanced view of development vs environment.

It may be unpopular. It may be doing it all wrong but it is definately necessary for individuals to take some action to preserve what we have.

Try visiting one of Dublin’s Mansions, they have playgrounds, c/w broken glass, used hypodermics especially for the local children.

They could of course get on a national subsidized city bus to go to a city park subsidized by the general tax payer, or go to the National Library, subsidized by the national income tax.

i have yet to understand why anybody in Dublin actually thinks that the distribution of resources in Ireland is fair: mostly we get a re-hash of the “populist”, “gombeen man”, “boreen minded” nonsense” to any pertinent questions. The Tasice minded snob who generally makes these remarks seems to think that they answer the question. Not so. Let me explain:

Some taxes are paid for services that we are all beneficiaries of – like defense and a national police service; some taxes are re-distributary to the poor from the rich, and some are destined for capital projects, or maintenance thereof.

it is the last sort which are maldistributed to the Capital from the rest of the country. And it is this maldistribution which gives Ireland one of the largest metropolitan areas relative to general population in the world. I am tempted to say the largest.

Private capital follows public capital, and labour follow capital, so it is no surprise that people flow into Dublin from the rest of the Country, and abroad.

Most of the developments mentioned on these boards, from the luas to the Metro – all of which I support – can, and should be funded by local taxation. The best way to do this is a local sales tax, and if Dublin could get VAT receipts it may well be able to fund these projects, or issue bonds to fund them. You can see that there is no real benefit to LetterKenny, or Tralee from a metro in Dublin, can’t you?

so why tax them?

Dublin City generates over 40% of the wealth of this country, yet has about 25% of the population. Before you trot out the old shit about all the roads going to Dublin, try working out why that is – most of the traffic wants to go that way. Have a look at where interchanges are placed on these new roads; if they were built for the benefit of Dublin they’d interchange with the M50 and nothing else.

Half the words like boreen I don’t understand. Been narrow minded, I am not, quite the opposite. I am not against Dublin or it’s people, I would simply like to see a fair spread of the wealth and resources within the country. Other countries can do it, why not us. Living outside Dublin you really get to see and realise how far behind it is on infraustructure etc. Would the people of Dublin not like to have other cities in Ireland that are developed and cosmopolitan. Not everyone travels to Dublin. I travel down the west side of Ireland to Galway, Limerick, Sligo and the roads and public transport are terrible. Cork, Limerick and Galway are our other main population centres and thus should be linked by good roads etc, after all it is the year 2004. Come and live in the west of Ireland, which I have done and you will see and realise what I mean. It is so obivious you would need to be blind or just pig ignorant not to notice it. Thank you………

Ah come on folks ….lay off Dublin. It is the Capital city of Ireland after all, so have a little respect for it. We’ve only had this boom for the last few years, the wealth is filtering down. Dublin has always been resented by those outside the pale. Such resentment was manifest in rural TD’s who were appointed as TD’s for Dublin and almost ran the city into the ground. Jesus, this city has had and still has the most chronic unemployment, drug ridden, vandalized, disadvantaged blackspots. It is only getting on it’s feet now. Maybe if people had more respect for urban values etc…and change their anti-Dublin mindset to that of having respect for the Capital such an outlook would be reflected in their own localities.

Any thoughts on tonights Prime Time?

I had an overwhelming urge to reach into the screen and strangle that Clare quarry owner. Still, he made himself look like the fool, gombeen and liar that he is.
The Trim Castle competition story is bizarre, but I did miss the first half of the show. Were there any revelations about bribes being paid?

Clare County Council allegedly came across as corrupt…..aka allegedly Liam Lawlor type of syndrome.

The Trim Castle/hotel debacle is just pure ignorant vandalism!
What a magnificent castle it is.

“gombeen” Andrew? what a brilliant word. What does it mean?

Sean, not all the British look down on the Irish. Jings the majority of us in Scotland are from Irish stock.

If you mean the Home County’s crew……… well they look down on everyone 🙂

The gombeen man was originally a sort of rural loan shark, but the word is used to describe the sort of corrupt businessman with a finger in every pie one finds all over the countryside, and in large cities too.

Well, thank you Andrew. Will use it when I can.