an taisce-and rumours of them going bust

My sister got rang at home to fire her. They didnt have the balls or the courtesy to invite her into the office but I wouldnt have expected anything less

An Taisce forced to cut senior staff due to financial problems
Iva Pocock

An Taisce, the country’s largest environmental organisation, has told two
of its key staff members of its inability to continue their employment due
to financial difficulties.

The Irish Times has also learned that Earthwatch Ltd, the Irish branch of
the international organisation Friends of the Earth, has ceased trading
after 18 years of existence.

Mr John Bowler, who was employed as An Taisce’s head of public affairs just
four months ago, confirmed last night that he had received a letter from the
organisation yesterday morning saying his employment would end at the end of
the month.

“It’s a sorry state of affairs that there isn’t more funding going to
environmental organisations,” he said.

Ms Shirley Clerkin, the An Taisce natural environment officer since 2000,
also confirmed last night that she has been told of the “inability” of the
organisation to employ her as of the end of the month due to “serious
financial difficulties”.

An Taisce has a core staff of seven. The chairwoman of An Taisce, Ms
Stephanie Bourke, could not be contacted for comment last night. An Taisce’s
funding comes from membership fees, fundraising, and occasional research
grants.

According to a spokesperson for the Department of Environment, Heritage and
Local Government, An Taisce also received ? 63,000 per annum for three years
from 2001 to help fulfil its role as a “prescribed body” under planning
legislation.

However that funding ended last year, the spokesperson confirmed last night.
But she said future funding was “under consideration.”

Meanwhile Mr Malcolm Noonan, a former board member of Earthwatch, confirmed
it has ceased trading.

Until last April it had one full-time employee as a supervisor of a
Community Employment scheme overseeing 11 part-time workers, but the
organisation then lost this scheme.

Hey Diaspora, can “Gobshite” be a collective noun………… or should it be “Gobshites”?

Paul,

The letting go of your sister was considered by all bar one a gross and grevious error. I only met S once and I would have to say that her current stance regarding a return is entirely vindicated.

J Bowler resigned for reasons unknown to me so I can’t comment. Other than to say I hope John reconsiders his decision.

Regarding An Taisce going Bankraupt dream on.

It will never happen

Running an NGO in Ireland is a risky endeavour at any time but particularly so when government grants are cut.

The real stregnth of An Taisce is its membership who still have a very acute sense of all that is wrong in the Irish planning process. Remember to keep the new barn at the CityWest Hotel in view costs money.

Quote: “The real stregnth of An Taisce is its membership who still have a very acute sense of all that is wrong in the Irish planning process”

I’m not saying the planning process is correct – but just because the members of AT *think something* doesn’t mean they are right.

Accepted being a member of any organisatio or company does not make anyone fundamentally right on any issue.

But many of An Taisce’s members are Built and Natural environment professionals, so they would bring expertise from other areas.

The strucuture of the organisation ensures that planning interventions are only made where a number of people reach concensus that a development would constitute good or bad planning.

No An Taisce would increase the risk of ‘loose cannons’ objecting to projects on far less structured grounds.

Fin would the absolutely relate to the illegally commenced conference centre in city west?

I would suspect so in your case

Keeping an eye on architects that ignore planning guidelines and do what their clients want.

I have always suspected you to be in that school of thought.

Yes Sir

Three blocks full?

Of Course

If you went to ten stock brokers and asked what the reurns would be on a tailored equity portfolio they would all come up with roughly the same figure give or take 2% per year.

County Develpoment plans also have limits as to the scale of development and the type of development the plan are based upon the consideration of the elected representitives and professional planners appointed by the state.

When particular clients go to particular architects all of that consideration is conveniently ignored. No aspirtion is directed at the vast majority of architects.

By who?
second rate architects who do not possess the skills or vision to work within the consensus poarameters.

Developers will only develop based on the professional advice they receive.

So the Barn at the City West hotel is OK?

You would have signed it off because it would constitute a meal ticket?

No we don’t all bow down to money Fin

If you are so concerned about money, why aren’t you doing nixers instead of glorifying in the short-term pain of an NGO?

If every architect bowed to money there would be no “good architecture”

Because low spec “signed Off” plans deliver better returns.

I have always found that one gets more respect by taking a stand.

The progression opportunities for Yes Men are about as limited as their vision

Ring any bells?

An T have only themselves to blame for their finances. In England the National Trust is (no pun) trusted. In Ireland, An Taisce is not trusted. It is seen as the private recreation of the affluent and an enemy of the people.

“Too high”, “too near”, “too red”, “we can still see it”, “we know you’ve done a nice job but we woulda done a better one”, “save the castle, I mean the wall”, “no development here, because since the Fir Bolg there’s been a field” etc etc.

We know that An T do some good work, but if they’re going to have any respect, they’ll have to bring us commoners with them, and give some vision as to what they stand for, as opposed to against.

Not trusted by whom?

People who create a new identity to attack them?

To state that the NT in the UK are more respected is probably true, they the Country’s biggest landowner and provide hundreds of natural environment for free public admission.

What An Taisce stands for is being “A Champion for Quality of Life”

What they are against are anything that compromises the quality of life.

As for elitism I suggestthat you examine the English NT your paragon of virtue.

You are clueless and anonomous,

unlike the typical people of Ireland who possess far more vision the green schools programme will ensure that ignorance on your scale should become a thing of the past as the An Taisce vision is outlined in an ever increasing number of schools

http://www.antaisce.org

“clueless and anonomous”, eh Diaspora?

arrange these words into a well known saying or phrase:

black……kettle…….pot……the…….calling.

http://www.antaisce.aaargh

Thank you, Diaspora, I now see the error of my ways.

Look: for as long as you’re going to talk down to those with ‘ignorant’ views, you are not engaging with the holders of those views. You merely communicate your prejudices about and disdain for those people.

QED

just like to point out that “Non-Taiscist” has never posted here before and are not a current member reregistered as diaspora seems to think….

There was a fine building that stood on High Street just a few metres down from Tailors Hall, An Taisce’s HQ. It was the former AIB Bank (beside MRCB paints) and dates from Victorian or Edwardian times. I’m sure it had a fine interior too and it had survived the Corpo’s inane road widening schemes of the past.
I was very saddened to see at Christmas that it had been gutted with only the facade remaining. I suppose it will be transformed into appartments or offices. I did’nt read or hear any objections from An Taisce!

Not accepted Alan,

If most of the names on this site are exmined Peter Fitzpatrick is about the only real name that springs to mind.

Diaspora is a description and a concept not a full frontal assualt on an organisation, this persona is used in all the contributions made on this site both possitive and negative

And I am not talking anyone with ignorant views down, merely stating that it is all a bit convenient that this ‘persona’ adopted arrived at this particular time with no location, interests, e-mail, or other profiling details.

The issues are architectural, I have engaged those in spades and will continue to do so.

There are particular opinions that I will never accept such as property values being more important than urban grain.

I find that this opinion being sold on an architectural website all the more bizarre.

Really Sorry I forgot to mention Graham Hickey

paul clerkin? if thats a nickname its a weird one. rita ochoa too. andrew duffy……. doozer?

why diaspora anyway? are you jewish?

Well yes, Sligo’s urban grain is important particularly if you’re living in Dublin.

If your house is damp, poorly insulated with an outside loo and has limited access to hot water or central heating. Where windows are difficult to open because of subsidence and where you can’t leave it’s value to you kids when you die because no one in their right mind would want to buy then it kind of colours your attitude toward its significance.

Are you suggesting bu the way that I’m Non Taiscist? What larks!

i think it would be a pity to loose an taisce, they represent point of view and it is always good to have all point of views heard, good goverance is the mediation of extremes, and so on. if an taisce’s view win out and you disagree, then your arguement is with the relavant council or apb for their decision, not with an taisce for expression pushing their opinion. if the system works, then making a bad arguement should affect nothing and making a good one should help.

myself, i agree with an taisce about half the time and disagree the other half. i do find it amazing though that it is such a closed organization, they make very little effort to recruit, they don’t organize many public meetings, for a campaigning organization their pr is awful, they appear snobby, their website is poor and so on. maybe this is because they are trying to fill to many different roles: enviromental campaign, planning watchdog and national trust.

notjim is my real name.

Originally posted by Diaspora
J Bowler resigned for reasons unknown to me so I can’t comment. Other than to say I hope John reconsiders his decision.

Sorry you are wrong…
John received a letter firing him….
He did not go of his own violation….

volition

without being too personal, i imagine miss clerkin and bowler are pretty pissed about this. do an taisce have public accounts to prove their financial position or are they just jerking the knee and looking for attention?

I don’t agree with all the views that AT express, but if I felt *that* badly about them, I would join and attempt to change from the inside!

Gabriel (also a real person) Conway

SW101 Paul and rita are moderators

Alan,

Have you never heard of restoration, and to descend in to inheritance is only amplify your admission that your primary objective is the creation of monetary value with the setting being a mere secondary concern.

Also when you are finished this project what reason will you have to go to Sligo? Maybe you might have a similar reason to the North Americans you mentioned?

I was non insinuating that you were non-taiscist. I have my suspicions and they point in a direction that is not you. I think the thread clarifies it pretty clearly.

Paul not to be overly argumentitive, but John resigned before the letter was served. He is a very independent and competent man, who jumped prior to the push.

Gabriel,

Sorry to have excluded your name, but I was merely pointing out the general trend. PLatform 11 rocks

So you just whinge from the outside then Fin?

Thanks Diaspora, though I’m nothing to do with Platform 11, I’m “BusTravel Ireland”.

Anyhow, actually this whole thread has stirred up some interest in me, and I think I’ll go off and do some research on AT and maybe join (if they take members) depending on what they and I have to offer each other.

Maybe it will provoke a similar response in others, after all, if it is ignorant of the “common person”‘s ideas, that is probably because the “common person” has not bothered to voice them.

Gabriel

I agree Fin,

you would never volunteer any time to serve an organisation that is dedicated to championing issues such as the prevention Of

1. Bad Planning

2. Environmental Pollution

An Taisce is an organisation that actively Promotes

1. Good architectural design

2. Sustainable development patterns

3. Better waste management

4. The retention and management of important buildings and habitats

But you can handle the responsibility of signing off of work that you consider of dubious quality.

I have not accused anyone of being non-taiscist, but I challenge non-tascist to reveal themself

Well Diaspora, our project in Sligo is now over. Still I’ll be visiting because the people are spirited and generous and the craic is good. Sligo and Glasgow have long established trading links, no doubt you knew that.

Still, I’ve news for you, architecture is not about setting, money or indeed urban fabric………. like everything in life, it’s about people and their aspirations. For someone to want a decent house is not in itself a bad thing…………… nor is it daft for a developer to desire to make a venture a commercial, that’s how life is.

Championing their vision of…
Bad Planning
Good architectural design
…etc etc…

AT come across as though their sh!t doesn’t smell and their way is the only way. An organisation in need of some PR.

I always thought the direct flight was to Donegal? I also doubt that Sligo trades more with Glasgow than anywhere else in Ireland.

In case you didn’t know Ireland has the most open trading economy in the World, there are extensive trading links with everywhere particularly the UK,US and Belgium

Architecture is about all those things, but those who realise their aspirations are those who play smart. Site selection is generally a good place to start.

As a general rule of thumb the developers who make a return are those who can convert latent site value without interfering with the urban grain

Youre real argument is not with An Taisce but with the Local Authority. Even more specifically with the student who didn’t list the Teeling House for protection. If you sold the merits of your building as opposed to repeating how your client will benefit from the development you could stand a higher chance of success.

After all the Local Authority have a duty to all the residents of Sligo on an equal basis. Not to specific land holders regardless of how much they paid for a site

If you paid $128 for Intel Stock in March 2000 who would you blame, I know Fin would blame An Taisce would you?

tee hee…

Nor are the members of An Taisce that is why all awards are adjudicated by independent judges. People have the right to build houses of an appropriate scale in areas that are zoned to accomodate residential development.

An Taisce wouldn’t need to acquire this property, a sale at open market value would provide a buyer prepared to restore it as what it is a residence, or possibly a professional practice might convert it in a sensitive manner as offices or even an architects studio. So no I don’t accept it has value only as a cleared site subject to the costs of site clearance.

Your explanation of lesser quality is good, but it does not justify an opinion that where the proscribed planning observer identify flaws in a lower spec development that they are anti-development.

” I challenge non taiscist to reveal themselves”

Not since ” No Luke, I am your father” have I been so staggered by a statement……… almost fell of my fucking chair.

I have not asked you to reveal who you are Diaspora, although I would dearly love to use some of your architectural platitudes, used less like a rapier thrust and more like a bloke swinging a leg of mutton, in my lectures.

I have no problem with conservation groups or debate about historic buildings, it’s a necessary part of the democratic process, my only real thoughts about An Taisce is from the outside and questioning why anyone takes them seriously.

Fin……”organised religion” very good. Keep laughing. I am

Alan D,

As always dodging the question a bit like the thread where you accused me of being threatening.

What is really happening in your site is that you entirely ignored the Teeling House’s architectural merit. Which has been decided by the elected members of Sligo to merit retention.

Instead you waffle on about property economics like you were Norma Cohen of the FT.

I have never seen an architect sell a project on the basis of this will benefit the owner and the poor owner will have no heritance for his kids to fight over if we don’t get planning permission.

I am sorry that I forgot your Sligo-Glasgow Chamber of Commerce will rejuvinate the entire region they definitely need air conditioning at their model offices. I am sure that this employment creation will solve all of Sligo’s unemployment problems.

Not to mention ensuring your clients children inherit something.

But, er, to get back to An Taisce for a minute… Why are they in financial trouble? What has happened in the last few days or weeks that made them let go two of their senior officers? Or, perish the thought, is this a ruse to get more spondulicks from the goverment?

Sue. (Sorry, this is a pseudonym!)

The government axed 63,000 euro in funding. So to cut their overheads they were forced to reduce their already overworked staff.

A case of political contributions buying influence if ever there was one.

For the record I have no problems with psuedonyms once they are not a deliberate attempt to mask and preserve a contributors credibility built up from other contributions.

It is hoped that funding will materialise to lure back the high quality services of Clerkin & Bowler.

rofl..

thats hilarious….

if you got fired, and then your boss came back and said “hey diaspora old chum, we found some money and would like to have you back. how about it? friends again?”

i somehow doubt you would….. if it were me that was fired, and my former boss came back to me with that, i’d drop my trousors and piss on their shoes….

Fin, you are harbouring major resent against An Taisca. Every one of your posts contains sarcasm and hatred against it. Why dont you tell us what happened? What plan of yours was sucessfully objected to by by An T? Was it a one-off house? ( & you seem to be one of the few people in your profession who are pro- bungalow blitz – if you are professionally qualified, that is)

Great news!

After their involvement in the Carrickmines/M50 debacle, I for one, won’t shed any tears!

Paul,

Working with/for NGO’s an individual understands that the risk profile of employment is much higher than private practice. Alternative employment opportunities with degrees such as environmental science also limit employement opportunities.

I was as shocked as anyone else at the cuts that were implemented, luckily for me I was a consultant so I have a couple of other projects lined up. But I am going to complete work that in an ideal world I could have put an invoice in for. I have no problem finishing it on a voluntary basis.

I hope that the situation is resovled and I fully concede that particular people should have been treated a whole lot better. I hope that as things unfold specific people can take a longterm view and not what was a decision made under the highest of pressure. Losing key excellent staff and that is what the ORGANISATION has suffered and the loss of these two excellent people could do serious damage to the organisation in the short, medium and long term.

Niall,

Carrickmines Castle is an utter debacle. Conservationists outside An Taisce pushed this well after the scheme went ahead. I wasn’t in An Taisce when the decision was made but I have a personnal interpretation.

All roads involve the highest level of planning, there are always at least three potential routes selected. These routes should involve detailed impact assessement. In this case that impact assessment was obviously flawed.

If I am asked on a personnal level I think completion of the C-Ring is a National objective. I also feel that Carrickmines Castle was an important Ruin. Why wasn’t a route selected that ensured both?

Does nobody in the NRA realise the risks of independent and previously unaligned groups emerging to take legal challenges.

It is even highly probable that many who supported their legal challenges did so more out of a NIMBY motivation than conservation concerns.

Bad planning through highly unintelligent route selection. A bit like granting planning permission to build a house on the actual route of the Cherrywood LUAS extension a year after a consensus route emerged.

Not to mention Jackson Way and all the other corrupt rezonings that obstructed this motorway.

It is to have an observer at the early stages of planning to raise these concerns that is An Taisce’s statutory function. Which is A function that the Irish Planning process requires. There is after all nothing more volatile than a person acting out of a NIMBY motive.

Sorry dual-posting if only eircom was as reliable as archeire!!!

Diaspora, how did the government “pull” 63,000 worth of funding exactly? Isn’t it the case that the government agreed a three year funding deal with An Taisce to help it in its role as a prescribed planning body? And isn’t it the case that there were no guarantees after Year 3? Shouldn’t a prudent body have made plans for what would happen after that funding ran out?

Anyway, it’s hardly the taxpayers’ role to fund An Taisce and I think I’d like to see its accounts before coming to any definite conclusions, but these accounts are not available.

I’m worried by you saying that “money might be found” to re-hire these people. This stokes my suspicion that this is all a bit of a PR ruse. The One in Four organisation pulled this “we’re broke and have to go out of business” trick last year and Bono rode to the rescue with 40k, quickly followed by the government with more money to bail it out. Is An Taisce doing something similar?? I really hope not.

Sue I wish it were it Ruse,

But it was acknowledged by Noel Dempsey that given the quantum of development that now exists it would be impossible for an NGO to fulfill it’s statutory observer status without government support.

I completely disagree that it is a PR stunt, and comparisons with the One in Four organisation are not appropriate given the disparity in their mandated functions. Re Bono, a model developer through his involvement in the Clarence Hotel

Regarding adopting a prudent stance, I think it would be prudent for the government to acknowledge that the professionals in An Taisce deliver much better value for money than government departments. There was no benchmarking at An Taisce.

You are correct to be worried that the money might be found for An Taisce, because equally it may not be found.

To ease your mind on the accounts they are audited by PWC, which they do at a substantial discount to the organisation.

Fin raised the point that An Taisce are hated in particular areas of rural Ireland. The organisation was accused by Johny Bradey TD from Meath of being an extension of the British establishment, ‘getting at the Irish State’

I took particular pleasure in sending a year book to a relative who has lived on Aran Mor for many years. Much of my family comes from Galway, we can trace our family there back to the 1580’s. And no there is no grand house there never was, but I am very proud of my heritage.

Regarding one off development which is the issue that has damaged the organisation more than any other. I personally would like to see a scheme in place that would allow for those active in rural communities build upon their own land. What is required is a measure to prevent the farming off of sites in inappropriate areas. Some claw back scheme that would tie a development to specific occupation by a named developer over a timeframe of say ten years.

What An Taisce needs are more members from rural areas. The organisation has county associations in most counties. But a higher membership would be welcome particularly in the West

I don’t accept that the organisation is universally unpopular.
I would suggest that a small extremely vocal element have vilified the organisation for their own political benefit.

It would also be fair to say that many of the same people have a go at every Dublin based body barring the GAA.

Regarding development of once off houses, the organisation wishes to see County development plans being observed.

In particular circumstances it is appropriate to bend the rules to facilitate individuals in the interest of preserving communities. What is not in the interest of anyone is widespread ribbon development often miles from social infrastructure such as schools and pubs.

I can’t believe I mixed up Inis Mor and Aran Island but it is always a pleasant surprise to find a relative being a member of an orghanisation you are doing work for. The point re the water quality of Lough Corrib you raised yesterday is of concern to everyone. Which was the direct remit of Ms Clerkin, given the illegal sludge pits within Galway Co Co areas before would you not prefer an independent observer?

Fin,

You forgot to mention Catlerea prison, that the locals lobbied hard to get. I just can’t see any other place in Ireland lobbying to open a prison. After all the lobbying to get Shanganagh closed in Wicklow.

Diaspora

You remind me of the priest from Father Ted, you know the one played by Graham Norton who sings bohemian rhapsody when their all trapped underground to keep spirits up.

Impervious to anything anyone says, blindly sure of his position and untouchable

That illustrates your understanding of Ireland, and lack of respect for anything.

It was the late Dermot Morgan that played Fr Ted Crilly.

I am attempting to have a reasoned discussion with Fin, on the issues. Not like yourself who wouldn’t comment on anything specific, not even the finer points of your own arguments.

Fin,

I agree that in an ideal World it would be great if local authorities monitored their areas in accordance with their mandates. But since the abolition of residential rates in 1977 by CJ Haughey local authorities have faced serious funding deficits.

The grants made by Noel Dempsey were an acknowledgement that the system needed an external monitor of the development process.

I don’t think so, it will a lead to a drop in development as a disincentive to develop anything.

Secondly unless the costs of benchmarking are addressed these levies will probably not be sufficient to cover the shortfall.

The 9% commercial stamp duty was another own goal.

Both of these could be self defeating in terms of overall revenue receipts :confused:

Just more of the same then Fin, eh?

That is exactly why we need to monitor them, I think a lot of the problems are purely down to inadequate resourcing.

That is where An Taisce is strongest, a clearing house where all large development is sent, 95% is given one glance and ignored. The other 5% is followed up and changes sought to development applications.

Where it is an even more necessary organisation is in situations where completely unsanctioned development is carried out. Such as diesel washing facilities, sludge pits etc. An Taisce persues many of these environmental hazards to the level of enforcement.

Diaspora,
He was referring to a specific priest in the Father Ted programme, who was indeed played by Graham Norton.
Last time I checked, I don’t think you have to be Irish to watch a programme that was first aired on Channel 4.

That is correct Kefu,

And a great series it was too, if memory serves me correct RTE were offered Fr Ted first and refused it. Because they were not properly funded at that time. A bit like most local authorities and An Taisce’s current grant cut.

No doubt it was revenge for Dermot’s legendary Scrap Saturday.

Fin,

AnTaisce have two Members of the Royal Town Planning Institute who handle their largest planning submissions. They are eminently qualified to express opinions.

Everything concerning architecture is open to personnal interpretation, particularly the principal architects vision. It is when that personnal interpretation goes that one ends up with 1950’s East German architecture.

The RTPI is a highly respected and possibly the best qualification in it’s field. Both of their degrees from the National University UCD.

What constitutes good design?

I thought thats what this forum was all about?

It is only about 5% of the largest 10% of developments and very rarely smaller scale developments that An Taisce make any submission. Very often it is only a specific or small number of grounds that An Taisce wish to see alterations in a proposed development.

Where individual members are not qualified planners any submission must be made by a County planning committee, on all committees there are qualified built environment professionals.

A Bord that we all accept the decision of, It is frustrating to have objections levelled against a proposal. But when it goes to An Bord Pleannalla you have the opportunity to refute any aspect of an initial decision and/or objection.

The 1976 act was the best change in planning removing ministerial influence, and there were some bad ministers for local government, Blaney, Tulley.

I would hope not Fin,

There is a need for An Taisce to put balance in to the process, but I would hate to think that a member of the Bord would look at the letterhead and weight an applicants argument with less respect.

There are lot of people I attack, but An Bord Pleannala I think are possibly about the only group one could accuse of complete objectivity.

For An Taisce the mandate is preservation of what already exists.

For the Local Authority it can be the expansion of the Rates base.

For developers it is generally financial.

For An Bord Pleannala I think it is a bit like the Judiciary, and you are right when you say that particular members like particular Judges are disposed towards particular ideas.

But I do believe that the Bord’s integrity is unquestionable.

Now hold on Diaspora, just a minute.

Did’nt say you reminded me of Ted Crilly.

He may have been stupid, opinionated, stubborn and full of his own self worth but at least he could be reasoned with.

Far from having a poor regard for Ireland, my grandfather and grandmother came from Tubbercurry near Sligo

As always alan reverting to cheap personal shots. So what if your grandparents came from Tubbercurry over 40m Americans are of Irish descent.

If was such a great place why were they in such as rush to get out?

But I don’t see ant architect either Irish or otherwise attempting to sell a project based on financial grounds.

You have broken new ground in planning circles with your assertion that a developers childrens inheritance rights are grounds for a planning decision.

You should have gracefully accepted the elected members of Sligo Council’s decision. Taken an appeal as any Irish architect would have done.

Och……………… ok then.

The entire situation stems from two factors, firstly at some point an owner of this property deliberately or otherwise ‘Disinvested’ in the maintainance of the property. Possibly in the hope that it would be seen as ‘sufficiently derelict’ for demolition.

Secondly the underfunded local authority relied on a student to compile their list of protected structures. It should have been listed in the first instance.

Everything else surrounding it is a tragic comedy of errors.

But there are ways of getting around it using highly dubious economic arguments is farcical.

I would dearly love to know the planning history of this site.

Bugger Fin, you got in before me.

There were no objections to it from the public. None. not one. nada.

According to senior council representatives, it was the best planning application they had received and the most positive pre planning discussions ever undertaken.

It was defeated because of the casting vote of one individual and the political structure of the council and party politics. It had nothing to do with AnTaisce, really. They just provided the justification.

My low opinion of them comes from their attitude to conservation their ignorance of modern architecture……… and from the people withing the organisation that I met in preparing the application

oh, and from the attitude of their consultants, who never read a fucking thing you write, wear their intellect on their sleeve and have a chip on both shoulders.

Oh sorry Diaspora but you really are a feckin arse. Sorry Paul sometimes there really is not other way to put it.

You have no idea. Our client is a local Sligo man who runs a business from Teeling House and has done for years. He is not a fly by night take it and run developer.

When all the shit came down on top of him during the renovation of the Court House which badly effected his business he made not a single complaint.

He came to Scotland to seek us out because he wanted the best development he could get for himself and his town and encouraged us to be innovative and use the best materials. This we could only do by the removal of Teeling House

We have worked for a small fee because of our commitment to him and his real desire to get a great project and because we like the town.

I would love to know how much he spent on rennovating the Teeling House. Or are Sligo’s tradesmen another group in your firing line?

Why wasn’t the restoration option given serious consideration?

I suspect that other Sligo architects were offered this brief and declined to remove Teeling house as part of any desin.

Bringing in overseas architects respected in their own juristictions is a good thing on cleared sites. But this is not a cleared site, which you have tried everything to get away from. But attacking everyone who disagrees with you changes nothing.

He is in pole position to capitalise to capitise on the excellent renovation of the Court House as are all the other neighbouring traders.

If the renovation seriously injured his trading he should have taken legal counsel

The renovation option was given serious merit but apart from the 2nd year student who was sent by An Taisce in Dublin and listed 200 buildings as being of historis worth, including an O’Neil’s Original Irish Tavern built in 1994 no one else thought it worth keeping.

I’m sure people on the site are now bored about this and I don’t want to communicate further with a feckin idiot…….. so I’ll sign off now.

Nothing personal you understand.

I think the planners in Glasgow should list your arrogance and Ignorance. They merit retention not export

I always knew that bit in Braveheart when the Scots and Irish team up against the English was bollocks.

Where was Braveheart made?

No seriously the Irsih and the Scots work very well together normally. I have good working relationships with people in the NTS. I also love Edinburgh which can hold its own with any European Capital.

Talking about Grandfathers, mine on my mothers side had to go to the US in 1920 for political reasons or more precisely to avoid arrest by the Black and Tans.

He returned in 1934 when he had enough cash to set up a business in Galway.

As for non-cooperation what about Celtic, they wouldn’t be the same club minus the Donegal influence.

For the record,

I’m not Diaspora or Alan D (but I do know him).

And if you take away the sniping, this has been a very interesting read. Thank you Alan D, Diaspora, Fin and the rest.

Diaspora – I know, I know the majority of Braveheart was made in Ireland.

But then Mel Gibson was made in Australia.

Welcome to the International Front.

…………….and you can fuck off as well S.I.

only kidding mate, you know I love you .

Cheques in the post.

I always knew that bit in Braveheart when the Scots and Irish team up against the English was bollocks.

Wow – this must be the biggest “handbags at dawn” thread ever. Wonderful to read the contrasting wit, reason, sarcasm, profanity, generalisation and personal abuse as the one piece. Well done to all concerned!

Nothing that a little government budgetary cutback couldn’t start. Restoration of the excellent Bowler & Clerkin is all I want.

Thats if they want to return.

Diaspora,

now that you have displayed admiration for Edinburgh, my neutral stance may have to be altered.

🙂

This thread is not about Architecture, it is about An Taisce and people letting off steam against them.

Not that is a bad thing, it is interesting to compare the methods used in doing so.

Not a Hibs man then Space-Invader?

Scotlands oldest Irish Club?

AOH in the states another fine institution.,

Originally posted by alan d
The renovation option was given serious merit but apart from the 2nd year student who was sent by An Taisce in Dublin and listed 200 buildings as being of historis worth, including an O’Neil’s Original Irish Tavern built in 1994 no one else thought it worth keeping.

really? thats a gag for P45 for next week…
have you proof

Can you hold that until Monday Paul I want to clarify that as well. 😮

hello again ireland. entertaining thread right enough but i think the war memorial postings are even better.

Still spewing out sarcasm and resent towards and taisce I see, Fin.

Not withstanding the fact that an taisce should be more supportive of modern architecture, an architects discussion forum is not particularly the best place to be having a go at the organisation. After all, the institute representing professional architects feels more or less the same as an taisce about one off housing (the issue that has earned it all the controversy). But an taisce is the only one Really sticking its neck out on the issue and so is incurring the venomous hatred of gombeen clientilist county councillors and estate agents up and down the country (and by proxy their constituents and customers). But that’s understanable. We are a post-colonial nation in its infancy.’Put a beggar on horseback’ and he builds a dormer- windowed Georgian bungalow on an elevated site in the raw Irish landscape.

As for you Fin why dont you go to the next Irish Rural Dwellers Association meeting (preferably chaired by michael healy rae). You would make lots of friends there and be able to share hate stories about an t.

Devin? do you want to out yourself as one of an taisce or shall i

I accept Fin’s Theory on one off houses: namely that the majority of them are not for people living locally but are generally built as as second ‘holiday’ homes.

I very much doubt that Fin or ANY contributor to this site designs the type of house you are talking about Devin. We are all opposed to pastiche architecture of that I am positive.

It is comparing those who disagree with An Taisce to Michael Healy Rae that has the organisation in its present difficulties.

An Taisce does not like taking asbuse, however it does not mind having its negative aspects expressed in a logical way. That you did Fin and I thank you for that.

It is comments like the above that have made the organisation unpopular in much of rural Ireland. That is something An Taisce has got to rectify, it is my priority over 2004 to work on policies that benefit rural Ireland.

Expect a very different PR spin as John Bowler continues to effect the changes in policy signalled quietly last September.

John has agreed a new form of employment of which I only know that he is ensuring the organisation gets the highest standards of PR.

what exactly is an taisces position on one-off housing? are they just against it in general or insistent on higher standards?

i had a client approach me after the new year looking for a design for an exposed rural site. he had a small engineering firm draw up a pokey americana pile from a rough sketch he made, and the planner had one look and told him to bugger off and find an architect, recommending me 🙂 visited the site and had a look around. given the rubbish thats been thrown up on the cliffs and hills there in the last 10 years i’m amazed all the planners arent blind. still, never too late for taste to take a hold on em. my options now are to dig a pit and fill it with house, or just give it a big grassy dome roof and lower the eaves to knee height. love my job.

an taisce, please, be gentle

well hello again lads…or lasses really (because you never know when people pretend to be something they’re not).

Before you get your yellowing combinations in a twist Diaspora and now Devin it seems, Irish theme bar?……on the west coast of Ireland? built in 1994? if that sounds plausible to you then we really are in a lot of trouble.

Hey Paul, I’m flattered. From the great joker himself.

Shaggy,

It sounds like the site is zoned for residential development if a planner recommended an architect. A specific architect being recommended sounds even more reassuring.

The An Taisce policy on development of residential properties is as high a density as possible that is why apartments and groups of houses are seen as prefferential. In general but not exclusively.

Good luck with it and I hope that far from designing in an over-sensitive manner, that you can set a positive precedent for the area. I have always found landscaping most important in similar situations.

Alan D,

Regarding the Bar in Sligo it sounds like a comical situation if my interpretation of the building is correct. Namely that it is a pastiche ‘Oirish’ type bar with many of the all too common design errors. Thank Michael Flattley, I am sure the architect behind it will get an invitation to the opening of a particular Las Vegas casino in 2004.

But I am not convinced that the student was ever on the payroll of An Taisce. Furthermore the now presumably graduated student does not work for An Taisce at the current time.

Ahhhhhhhh……. ACelts divided by a common language.

There is no Irish Themed Bar in Sligo, Diaspora. I was joking.

It’s only labelled O’Neil’s because I could not spell Paddy Mulligan’s

It sounded plausible in the architectural regression in Pub design that occured between 1994-98.

Thankfully better designs were generally effected in latter years. It is important to acknowledge that An Taisce does not support pastiche architecture. All architecture should be original either restoration or contemporary.

………well competition is fierce on archeire.

Remember the legendary Berlusconi scam, you’ve gotta keep up the standard.

Fin, your always getting in before me you rascal. lol

The definition of Oirish, is simple enough design it with tourists in mind.

Examples of ‘Oirish’ treatment are generally confined to historical buildings and include:

The stripping of rendered finishes to expose stone exteriors, often pieballed stone that looks inferior to the original.

Over exposure of timber usually badly dyed (new timber) antique pine.

Really poor shopfronts being placed on four storey engineer designed apartment buildings with bar at street level, the perfect example is ‘The Liffey Wharf’ on Ushers Quay.

When it comes to listing protected structures nothing surprises me. This student obviously missed a property so why would it be such a surprise if they included another in error?

In a hundred years time the pastiche architecture of today may well be culturally relevant. (‘why was everyone at the turn of the 21st Century so obsessed with Irish theme bars for example: and do we have any remaining examples which best describle the milleu: if so, let’s preserve it’ may well be the cry of preservation bodies in the future)

And remember, in the past, architects weren’t adverse to dabble in pastiche also.

Time is a complex bugger innit.

I agree there were some excellent bars done during the period giving a new interpretation of old bars. I like the Quays in Galway, McSorleys in Ranelagh Dublin. One bar I have a lot of respect for is the Bailey, which preserved the outer skin and has a cool clean interior. It also has tables outside which are the ideal summer seat, if you are lucky enough to get one.

I suspect that buildings such as the Dail extension and others such as the Irish Film Centre will be the buildings that are remembered. Along with mostly contemporary buildings.

Ye mention the Liffey Wharf pub on Ushers Quay: in fact, the whole stretch of this side of the quays is an absolute disgrace. From the diddly-idle pub O’Shea’s Merchant right up to Heuston Station is one big hotch potch disaster of pastiche, gerry building, dereliction and rubbish. (A great backdrop to the new James Joyce bridge whose arches were lowered so as this view would not be obstructed).
An Taisce could focus it’s energies here highlighting the urgent need to repair the fabric of this part of the city with better contemporary design standards.

Greg,
There is a specific report close to publication that deals with the issues you raised. It goes much further than listing the problems, and thankfully the author has listed what he perceives to be possible solutions. I will get you a look at it as soon as it is published if you want.

Even better it will be put on the web. I’ll post the link

Paul said “Devin, do you want to out yourself as one of an taisce or will i?”

What’s this about “outing” as an an taisce member? I thought that only applies in the backarse of leitrim or kerry . I would just as easily say Im a member of the ASTI.

The point ive been trying to make is that I think the architect bods should cut an taisce some slack. There is only really an t., the RIAI and the IPI trying (and fighting a losing battle) to get some policy change to deal with the chronic levels of one off housing. After that, the whole country either doesnt care or wants bungalows.

I agree that An Taisce aren’t the only ones who are of the belief that other more sustainable settlement options exist.

However directing all resources and PR towards this issue has done the organisation serious damage.

It is the current minister’s opinion that some of the previous An Taisce PR (pre John Bowler) was actually conter productive. It did little other than to energise oponents of the strategy that is in most county development plans, the National Spatial strategy and wider EU spatial policy.

Megaphone diplomacy delivery of opinion has been the problem, not the message.

Given the work done by Peter Hennessy and Frank Corcoran on rural sustainability, I would hate to see it ignored due to over concentration on one issue.

In many quarters An Taisce has to prove itself again, this will be done. Ultimately Ireland will be better off with a consensus reached by discussion.

Diaspora, you’re sounding more and more like your average Irish politician: saying a lot but saying nothing.

sw101 said “what exactly is an taisces position on one off housing? are they just against it in general or insistent on higher standards?”

Its one-off housing policy is on the an taisce website, “www.antaisce.org”. Go to ‘campaigns’ then ‘policy statements’ then ‘rural built environment’. Its about 15 pages long and the first 2 lines of it are:

“Our countryside is a valuable and fragile feature of our heritage. Our current failure to protect it breaches minimum international norms.”

Excellent letter re one-off housing in the Irish Independent today by Alan Crowley.

An Taisce has four functions:

Property Management

Advocacy of policies

Planning observations

Education (through community local authority and commercial co-operation)

To over-concentrate on one policy only serves to undermine all other policies.

That it is what it is one policy no more. On an operational level An Taisce makes few submissions on individual submissions. Mitigating circumstances such as family and local employment reasons are accepted.

Holiday homes are not, that is why Mary McAleese was refused permission for a holiday home. An Taisce needs to step back from this issue in terms of PR in the way that it has in the opertation of planning observation.

No one issue is worth jepordising all four programmes.

In case anyone has forgotten An Taisce is primarily the National Trust for Ireland it needs to never forget that.

We may be getting distracted from the issue which began this thread – in essence, why isn’t An T thriving, prosperous and generally respected. Here’s two for openers:

(1) One-off housing.

This is a no brainer and An T should have won the argument ages ago. Of course much of this housing is for commuters and city folk wanting to exercise the 4x4s a few weekends a year, but much of it is also to accommodate daughters (sorry Equality Authority, ‘struth) and second sons who would otherwise have to negotiate with the types that own the local village or town land bank.

Ideas to consider include requiring minimum numbers / clusters, properly serviced, to be built as well as requiring actual rather than pastiche architecture. An T could have been ‘political’ about this. They could have been and been seen to be the defender, the promoter, the facilitator of family accommodation on the homestead. Instead, all that is visible is negativity.

Even if you say “we’re for sustainable development” most people don’t know what you’re talking about. If you say “we’re for family farms and the accommodation for the extended family etc” you have won the hearts and cornered the arguments of the O Cuiv/Rae adherents.

(2) We know best.

Where An T really really gets up the noses of many in this forum is the perception that it knows better, always. Old = good, new = bad, us = good, you = bad.

You can do a truly fantastic job, you can agree with the neighbours, you can follow local and sympathetic idioms and use local materials, you may delight a lot of people (you can be a good architect?), but, no, it’s not quite right. Because there’s an An T opinion, it’ll get listened to, not because it may have merit, but simply because it exists.

Heritage is being created all the time, and that fact is lost to An T. If it’s any good, it’ll be visually intrusive. The self-indulgent pursuit of alterations to plans, the relentless pursuit of the ‘correct’, the requirement that it has the last word on any significant development has had the curious result of rendering suspect any intervention of An T. A bit of active indifference would be welcome.

P.S. (1) I am not anybody else who has posted here (2) I observe that Diaspora is almost as much of an arriviste as myself.

If those are your opinions you should divest the non from your name.

You would be a most welcome An Taiscist if you put your arguments into the process. I think you are a little hard on the organisation stating that they object on some of the grounds you mentioned.

Such as the relentless pursuit of the ‘correct’.

What else would you want us to persue?

That aside your input would be welcome. 😉

Paul, what’s the story behind 500 buildings being removed from the List of Protected Structures in Dublin?

Non Taisist, for what it is worth, this is my experience.

If you can not create yourself then your influence is determined by objecting. Your “power” lies in the ability to restrict developement.

Below is the most recent announcement of changes to the list of protected structures. It features a ratio of 2:1 in favour of MORE listings.

100% Dublin Corporation: Our Services: Dublin City Development Plan Protected Structures
Summary: Dublin City Development Plan, 1999, Listed Buildings, Protected Structures, Maps, Information, Dublin, Dublin Information, Dublin City Council, Planning. Dublin City Development Plan 1999 : Protected Structures. Dublin’s development plans have always included lists of buildings which were to be preserved or pro
Updated: 16/10/2003 09:54:24

Power I will leave to yourself Alan

An Taisce does not think in terms of power only fullfilling its mandate under the 1963 and subsequent planning an development acts.

Observers to the planning process and developers of the organisations own properties.

It is as already stated the function of Local Authorities to determine first instance applications.

It is the function of An Bord Pleannala to determine second instance appeals.

I recommend you purchase some of Yvonne Scannell’s texts on the Irish planning system.

Because knowledge is the only power in this process not money and certainly not An Taisce.

Oh, I’m not saying that people who cannot create themselves Diaspora don’t have a role to play, apart from regurgitating planning law- verbatim and when required.

Great art cannot be universally liked in it’s own time……….the real issue is do the right people hate it.

But a bit like a good or great picture the right place must to be found to display it.

The property market like any other needs to be regulated, the only way to that is through legislation.

If An Taisce argued anything other than points on legislation and development plan guidelines and objectives the organisation could not call itself objective.

There are many objectors who throw the kitchen sink into objections An Taisce do not.

Non-Taiscist – you’ve hit the nail squarely on the head.

AT are universally disliked for the two reasons above. Rural – cos of the one off’s (although AT are in essence correct). Urban – cos of quote “Old = good, new = bad, us = good, you = bad”.

Just because you have power doesn’t , mean you should wield it.

Diaspora, you may argue that AT is merely fulfilling it’s remit under law – but an objection from J Murphy carries none of the weight that an objection from AT has. Most people are just too frightened/stressed to try and overcome the hurricane force of D4 minded constricted vision that AT domineers on designs they deem “unsuitable”. Is it any wonder the docklands and “new Dublin” are so bland? It isn’t the direct fault of AT objecting to a specific Docklands design – but a mindset and culture has come about. Propose this and watch it get stamped into the ground. So why bother…?

I understand onlt too well that the past PR of An Taisce has been poor. It is going to take time for An Taisce to win back the support of much of those who could possibly be members of the National Trust if they were resident in the UK.

I don’t accept that An Taisce is predominently made up of D4 types. I acknowedge the problems that such people cause, their way or no way.

We will have a small problem keeping a lid on their opinions in the short term. But make no mistake the new director of An Taisce will allow no minority exploit the organisation to their own ends.

Re The Docklands An Taisce has no input there nobody doers except the Authority, Developer and residents groups. That suits An Taisce as there is little or no heritage buildings down there. The major objections levelled by An Taisce were the revised Georges Quay scheme on the basis of it’s impacts on the Custom House and the very bland Spencer Dock.

Regarding the wider point of bland architecture I couldn’t let the possibility of one observer influence my design input.

Just follow the development plan and be bold with original design concepts in mind. Once you can prove that you have taken steps to mitigate concerns raised, you will win the argument.

Ms. Non Taiscist:

With reference to your comments, An Taisce is not a popularity club. The proposal for a complete ban on one-off housing is a fighting fire with fire excercise: in an ideal world no-one would propose a complete ban on one-off housing, but the magnitude of the problem in Ireland is so overwhelming that it is a necessary measure. And look, now it is a contentious debate, whereas before it was just happening undocumented.

Some of your perceptions of An Taisce are very anachronistic. I suggest you take a surf around its website to update yourself (http://www.antaisce.org).

Lastly, as one who is peripherally involved in the organisation, I concede that there are too many “martello tower preservation society” types still involved for its own good.

Agreed, an T does not exist as a popularity club. That’s why we’re debating it. The difficulty is when its lack of popularity operates to imperil many of the things it stands for.

…………good letter in the Irish Times today Non-T which supports your view.

Another letter which exposes the lack of consensus on the issue.

An Taisce is happy to have the organisation’s policy against one off houses included in all county development plans and the National Spatial Strategy.

It does not persue the policy as rigidly as it could. In most cases it allows the local authorities to decide without any An Taisce submission.

The one off housing policy is one An Taisce policy that has been accepted almost universally. As opposed to burying our heads in the sand, the organisation has developed lines of demarcation as to what circumstances mitigate an application meriting no censure.

As stated before family ties and use of particular local building materials in combination are preferable to much of the junk that has sprung up in the past.

What is required is legislation in all areas binding those who develop one-off houses by virtue of family ties to those properties for a reasonable timeframe of say ten years.

As Fin stated has been done for Gealtacht grants.

The fact that one off housing has not left the agenda is a reflection that this single policy is overshadowing all the other programmes An Taisce provides.

Very few within the organisation have such tunnel vision as to see the organisation as a single issue group.

Just to repeat the structure of the organisation again:

The Education unit that provides the Green Schools programme in partnership with LOCAL schools, communities and business.
The White and Blue flag schemes.

The 16 Properties that are held and managed both locally and nationally.

The Waste and Transport committees that have had many policies implemented in a much less controversial way.

The built environment committee that has had many successes including influencing many heritage protection measures incorporated into the 2000 Planning and Development act.

The Natural Environment committee has had many successes on having the government keeping the Kyoto protocol on the agenda. They also brought the one off housing issue which was a progressive move to put on to County development plans as a submission.

To push for a complete ban policy only serves to undermine all the other policies and programmes.

It hands ammunition to many who are using this issue only to advance their own political ambitions.

Does anyone take anything on the opinion page of the Irish times seriously?

Come on Kevin Myers, John Waters, John Dillon etc :rolleyes:

…….. and if you listen carefully you can still hear Bohemian rhapsody.

Why don’t you write one Alan? You could see exactly how much support exists for a Glasgow -Sligo chamber of commerce.

Why not go directly to the recruitment section for the large secetariat you require?

You have thrown the kitchen sink in your attempts to smear the organisation.

Nothing has stuck.

no need for anything to stick…. an taisce has done a good enough job of smearing itself over the last decade….

“…….Scaramouche, Scaramouche can you do the fandango. Thunderbolt and lightn……. “

Accpeted that on one entirely different issue PR has been handled badly. But what has Bohenian Rhapsody got to do with one off houses. I thought the video had a multi-layered effect.

Since Bohemian Rhapsody is raised again, the priest in Father Ted was Noel Furlong – I shouldn’t know that but no matter…

I know very little about the inner workings of An Taisce – although I’m learning fast via this thread!
The public perception of them is appalling for a National Trust – this is an issue that they have allowed get out of control.
I agree totally with regard to their negative negative negative stance.

Just like any company or organisation PR is the key – and especially considering that AT are dealing with members of the public with which they have no other connection, and they have to ‘advise’ or otherwise with regard to their development, it is crucial that there is a positive spin put on things, for this not currently to be the case is disgraceful on their part.

One of AT’s senior members, I can’t remember his name now (the man that lives in the 17th century townhouse on the quays) appeared on the Late Late about a year ago about the rural housing issue, and his performance was woeful.
Eamon O Cuiv walked all over over him with the usual crap, the audience made him look like a fool, and An Taisce looked pathetic.
This shouldn’t have been the case, they should have put their best foot forward, as they should always be doing, and they failed miserably.
This instance marked the end of public sympathy with AT on the rural housing issue.

It is crucial that the National Trust of a nation has credibility and support from the public.
The attacks being made here are from personal experiences and supposed incompetence of staff etc, but at the end of the day it is the organisation itself which is important, and if it dosn’t have public support, which I fundamentally believe it dosn’t, then questions must be raised as to the competence and suitability of AT as the nation’s Ntl Trust or equivilant.

diaspora, throughout this thread and others you have conveyed fundamental prejudices typical of dublin, reflecting the bias prevalent in both schools of architecture in dublin and in both of the main architectural associations..

….that being a near zero respect/knowledge for architects,educated elsewhere, with architecture being built or practising in ireland

Spacer,

You must be a member of the Diaspora as I see from your profiling detail (singular) that you are located in the UK.

As if you were not you obviously wouldn’t know the basic geographical difference between Dublin and the other 25 or 31 counties depending on your perceptions.

For your information I was born in Galway so I would only be prejudicing myself if I held the opinions you claim I hold.

Galliamh Abu 😀

You’re dead right, Graham Hickey, and closer to the truth than you realise. An Taisce’s problems (winning skirmishes – great, glorious victories – and losing the war) are almost entirely self-inflicted and largely due to the arrogant zealotry of two influential individuals who have been let off the leash for too long, when they shouldn’t have been. Hopefully the new administration will put an end to that, sooner rather than later.

And don’t even think of telling me, Devin and Diaspora, that I should become a member of An Taisce and rein them in. That’s your job. You don’t have a monoply on fighting the good fight. Lots of other people are out there, too, under other umbrellas, but you’re stupidly drawing down so much fire that you’re queering the pitch for everyone.

When even the people who share many of your views think like this, you’re in deep shit.

Graham,

I agree entirely with your analysis save to say no other organisation is capable of running a National Trust due to lack of experience dealing with a diverse property portfolio.

Trace I agree with your analysis except to say that the organisation only speaks for it’s members, so the pitch is still open for others to make their opinions known. It does not claim to speak for anyone else, However I am very happy that you have finally put the ‘only an An Taisce objection is listened to’ myth to bed. Where it should be.

Many individuals make individual submissions on many issues. Which is their duty if they feel strongly about something.

An Taisce is not a single issue organisation and further it is not a single function (planning observer) organisation.

Expect more balance from the organisation in regard to all four programmes going forward.

It would be niave for the organisation to expect people to part with their hard-earned cash in membership dues just because it has been said the PR will change.

It is entirely the organisations problem to regain the momentum that has been lost.

The organisation has over this destructive period also been making progress on its other programmes.

Which are less controversial and deliver tangiable benifits to the public.

Such as the Education programmes

The Properties portfolio.

Other policies directed at transportation and waste management issues.

It is on those programmes that the organisation should be judged going forward.

You post-ers think An Taisce are bad. ‘Historic Scotland’ (‘Hysteric Scotland’ to their critics) make Edinburgh “a tough place to be an architect”, where practitioners “are hogtied by a powerful conservation lobby” who have reduced planning to a “box-ticking exercise”. (see Irish Times achitecture page of January 24, 2002)

At least here some daring stuff does get through. And so it should.

Alan, have you had any experience of this group?

Just a PS

Michael Smith was your man, of Westin and Spike fame.

He is currently in Argentina. Stephanie Bourke is the new Chair and Frank Corcoran continues as President.

Frank was quoted in December as saying make 2004 the yearof four programmes

Education

Property Management

Planning

Advocating PolicieS

So What???

Somebody (rightly) said An Taisce isn’t in a popularity contest.

I’m an ex member (and Council member) of AT, an Architect in private practise (so much for assertions regarding those who ‘don’t create!!) have worked in England, Pakistan and South America – and am horrified at attitudes among the Irish people to conservation and environmentalism.

Paul you really should feature Frank McDonalds article of last Saturday, and fintan O’Tooles and John S Doyles among others regarding such attitutes.

There is no difference in ‘importance’ between architecture of the past and that of the present.

I happen to be happiest in doing contemporary new build work, I also thoroughly enjoy the non egotistical elements of conservation work (although that’s mostly a hobby).

I fully support AT and their policies on built environment most of which are pretty well thought out.

Diaspora, I admire your perseverance but don’t know why you’re bothering – there’s little to apologise about or make excuses for. Alan has a bee in his bonnet because His Scheme was turned down in Sligo and At had a hand in it.

For your information Alan I’ve had AT appleal and object to work of my own and have never taken it personally, you’re and Architect and an adult (presumably). behave like one!!.

Paul (i’m sorry about this) has never demonstrated any sense of even handedness about AT, and much of what is written is by the same old gang of four (or five) is a combination of ignorance, laziness and a cast iron unwillingness to consider the other side ofthe argument – In fact just waht they accuse AT of.

Get on with your work Diaspora, whatever it is, for AT and to hell with the begrudgers (most of whom would be pretty unfamiliar with the concept of unpaid, voluntary or community service).

If AT goes broke so be it. Tony Lowes comments in the Irish Times of last Saurday regarding environmental issues pretty much summarise it for me ,Its all about “Saving Ireland From The Irish”.

AT has a public role and duty and until the day that the Banks actually foreclose, that will remain their responsibility.

One final comment – who should determine what is right for our built environment – The Massed Builders, Developers ,County Councillors and Architects of this country???????.

Regards

James

ok James………… sorry

……and I have tidied up my room.

James: There are probably two threads in this thread which we’ve been discussing.

1 The methodology and language used to sort out the one-off issue. The fact that An T seems to have been singled out as the sole promoter of some sort of ‘alien’ idea, whereas it is or is meant to be that of the planning authorities indicates, indicates a failure to get an effective message across. The fact that An T’s position is correctly and conscientiously held is beside this point. (Good idea, ineffective presentation). In this argument it’s first impressions – the first soundbite that matters. E.g if you say ‘we’re against one off housing but we’re in favour of exceptions in certain cases’, to the (politically-usable) potential ‘victim’ of such position, it reeks of city folks interfering in the parish. Instead say (wait for it) we’re in favour of one-off housing except for holiday homes + outsiders to the areas, it might just influence thinking. Say ‘we agree up to a point’ rather than saying ‘you’re wrong’. Fundamental Dale Carnegie.

2 An apparent predisposition towards the preservation of the old, for old’s sake, rather than of the good. This is allied to a suspicion reflected in this forum that it is a minority view that is adopted by An T.

Maybe the only thing to do is join …..

Non Taisicst,

You have the nail on the head regarding PR delivery vs the message. I also like the Carnegie family they gave great libraries free to this Country.

On one off houses you have perfectly descibed the operational output of An except that you ommited long-distance commuters.

In that I am not solely referring to Dublin either but people on the outskirts of Potumna developing sites and working in Galway commuting longer than they need to.

One off housing is not simply about the visual effects it is about the larger social change that it effects upon towns already under pressure to retain a viable population base. It is about the increased commuting distances and the cost of providing local authority services.

However where people work on the land it would be unsustainable to make them move into a town. It would be the direct opposite of what the policy is attempting to address.

Farming famillies should be allowed to build houses on lands that would be considered inappropriate for others to develop especially people employed in Dublin.

However like everything else there needs to be controls of which three spring to mind.

1. Local and sympathetic building materials and good architectural design are essential.

2. Areas of outstanding natural beauty such as uplands and coastal areas which are generally bad land anyway these areas need protection.

3. A mechanism needs to be in place to ensure that where permission is granted those granted permission will occupy the property for a reasonable period of time.

The Four programme approach is the only An Taisce policy worth talking about this year.

That sounds reassuring,

What I would like to see is towns such as Portumna develop a greater population within their town centres.

Facilitating new commercial opportunities for services and shops.

The problem is that if a continuous ribbon development pattern emerged between Portumna and Loughrea at some point on the road closer to Portumna than Loughrea people would ignore Portumna and shop in Loughrea.

The Ideal situation is to concentrate populations in towns. Providing critical mass that provides better shops in the short term and in the longer term attracts investment and provides professional services opportunities.

Well said James!!!!!!!!

Diaspora has filled up this thread with pages and pages of boring crap about the organisation, which I’m sure people stopped reading ages ago. You’ve said all that needs to be said abouit an taisce in one single post.

Devin,

As good as your urban work is and it is good.

You have little understanding of anything beyond the City of Dublin, and sadly even less understanding of Public Relations.

Which is what good and inclusive Non Government Organisations use to

1. Communicate a message to as large an audience as possible.

2. Attract members from as broad a range of people as possible. I believe it is called bottom up policy development.

Originally posted by Diaspora
I believe it is called bottom up policy development.

Isn’t bottoms up policy development about meeting developers in the pub, the passing of envelopes, and a cheery ‘bottoms up’ before consuming a large port 😉

“Saving the Irish from the Irish” – hmm. It’s all very subjective.

Thanks ro_G,

I had almost forgotten Devin’s claim that the Nation is in its infancy.

82 Years this year and economically it has defied every pundit and nay-sayer.

In terms of Architecture there are better buildings being errected now than at any time before.

The saving the Irish landscape from the Irish remark is not fair to 99% of the population of this country.

The 1% I direct it at are those that harp on about the struggle for the land, and the claims that we spent 800 years trying to get the english out.

That is a great history lesson and if I had time I would read all of Tim Pat Coogan’s books because he is a witty man.

But that argument is a merely a smokescreen for a pure lassiaz faire attitude towards the development of particular parts of Ireland.
We have won the war so we can divide the spoils as we see fit.

The Department of the Environment has developed very clear and coherent policies on all aspects of development policy.
An Bord Pleannala has established itself as a respected authority on all planning matters.

It is to those bodies that the organisation looks to save Ireland from poorly thought out individual planning applications.

Bottoms up to An Taisces healthy future. It has never been needed more. Nowhere is the environment being thrashed like Ireland and an taisce do a thankless job. Bullyboy Cullen doesnt like us cos we get in the way of vested interests, so he cut our funding, but its just a matter of highlighting the situation to the media, the Taoiseach, the other political parties and the environment DG.

(still nursing wounds from earlier exchanges, I see Fin……….and you’re a prominent member of the gang of four or five James was talking about)

Devin,

It surfaced on the O’Connell St thread about Dublin being bad in comparison to Continental Cities and Front Ranked US Cities such as New York or Boston.

But in comparison to countries such as India as mentioned on the other Thread or the El Alto shanty outside LaPaz Bolivia, where the environment is being thrashed on a nightmare scale. It is a question of improvement and not rampant levels of criminality.

Cullen is not a bullyboy and Dempsey was a good minister for the environment.

They could do more if people such as yourself stopped cutting and pasting the opinions from Frank McDonalds ‘The Destruction of Dublin’ everytime someone disagrees with you.

An Taisce was not the only organisation to suffer budget cutbacks this year. I find McCreevy a little cautious as a finance minister but caution is better than bankrauptcy.

I would say however An Taisce deserves the money it got over the three years. It delivers good value for money to the taxpayer.

When the PR improves and this should coincide with a better economic climate,
An Taisce merits restoration of funding.

But as long as individual members keep spouting on about ‘vested interests’ the funding will be given to those who behave better.

Yawn

I know how it must look,

But it is a very small minority within the organisation that have such dated opinions.

In my first week I got an invitation to their annual conference, which was in Kilkenny. Anyway a woman stood up and starting rabbiting on about corruption and governments, the Chair intevened. That was as much on that topic as I have heard about ‘corruption in general’ until Devin started on about it again.

But you are right as long as that type of opinion is around it doesn’t look at all well on the resume.

But I am getting a little concerned at this stage with the PR spin of Devin, would you leave the National Trust function with such a Dublin Focussed Zealot? That is precisely whathe wants you to think, he will never have any influence worth talking about in this organisation. Because even though he has particular qualities in relation to modern urban design, he is a liability mostly to himself

Forgive me for mentioning this again, but there are four programmes all playing their own angles, without the President Frank Corcoran who has held it together at at a difficult time for them I would have left.

Sure they don’t want your membership if you do not subscribe to its objectives

“Oughterard-based auctioneer Mr Frank Conroy was one of those whose membership was rejected. “My motives in joining were purely so that I might have an opportunity from within to influence An Taisce into adopting a more sensible attitude towards rural planning,” he said.

Rejecting suggestions that he had links with a named property developer, Mr Conroy said he ran an independent practice. “I could have been a good and active member of An Taisce,” Mr Conroy said. “As a supposedly democratic organisation it should have been able to accommodate me.”

However, Mr Lumley has made it clear the organisation does not accept as members people who do not subscribe to its objectives. “We are very busy. We cannot allow our work to be obstructed by those with vested interests.””

so if you do not agree 100 percent with them, there is no point in joining….

When is that from Paul?

A little research on Mr Conroy reveals that it is not a little change like accomodating farming families that he seeks.

http://www.mattosullivan.com/ought/ought.htm

His vision of Oughterard is:

Oughterard has always been popular with people seeking holiday and retirement homes, but in recent times it has become very important as a dormitory town for Galway City, which is only twenty-minute drive.

Rosroe, Cashel
One acre site with excellent sea
views, available subject to planning.
Details on request.
Rosroe P.O.A.

Carraroe, Co Galway
We have a selection of sites in
Carraoe and the surrounding areas
To be sold subject to planning.
Details on request
Carraroe 40,000 – 50,000 Euro

Sensitive areas no matter,

It would have been a different matter entirely if he had applied wishing to assist with the properties portfolio, or develop the education programme.

But given his public disregard for Department of the Environment policy and applying to change to rural policy into what appears to be ‘dormitary town’ policy is pretty clear cut.

He is welcome to apply if he wishes to give his undoubted property skills towards the management of existing An Taisce properties.

I would be prepared to argue his case once he was prepared not to seek a position on the Galway planning committee.

Ok Paul, point taken.

They don’t ‘look after everything’ and that is the cause of the PR problem for An Taisce.

They sell you the site without the planning permission.

It is then up to purchaser to secure planning permission for the house, hence emotive media images of young couples who ‘have been denied planning permission’ because of EU and Department of the Environment policy.

Devin please clarify that you are speaking personally because with your style of communication An Taisce could be sued.

To quote James, “Get on with your work, Diaspora”

Which has been unfortunately hampered by Arthur Scargill types such as yourself.

Have you read Trace, Graham Hickey and many others, they want An Taisce to succeed but as what it is A National Trust

not a talk shop from those still living in the 1980’s Thatchers Britain.

I forgot to say that Stephanie Bourke and all the other senior officers both paid and voluntary have my full support.

I doubt devin will retain full support if he attacks the chair publicly, without justification.

Originally posted by Devin

I appreciate that you are slightly aggrieved about Shirley: so am I. The unanimous feeling within the organisation is that it was a rash blunder on the part of the newly appointed chair.

Sorry, but you are assuming my attitude to An Taisce has changed. If you read James’ comments, you will see that I have always been consistant in my attitude. I am not my sister’s guardian, of course I am upset that Shirley was fired in this way, but seeing as I was not An Taisce’s greatest fan in the first place……….

Diaspora, surely he is still intitled to join the association.

Devin, I assume that with the rules in An Taisce with speaking to the press or the public that your views have been passed by the association and are therefore the views of the association. Indeed I am accepting them as the views of the national committee of An Taisce and I thank the association for their feedback to this discussion, as I’m sure everyone else does. It is great to see the association interact with the man in the street.

As far as I am concerned, if An Taisce wants funding from the state, it should have membership open to all. Everyone! Just because a coterie of Taiscans have a problem with someone, should not mean that they cannot join. Like golf clubs that do not allow women and are refused lottery funding, a so called national organisation should not be allocated government funds if they restrict membership.

Afterall, if the committee or a senior officer have a personal problem with someone, they can stop them joining. Hardly democratic.

How are we supposed to change the organisation from within, as seems to be the catchcry of the Taiscans here?

Who decides who can and cannot join? And for what reasons?

Is there a file on who cannot join and can we access it under the Data Protection Act to ensure that our names are not on it? Indeed it might be worth the while of any journalists reading this to contemplate a query under that act………

Paul below is the very grounded reason why Mr Conroy was refused membership

His vision of Oughterard is:

“Oughterard has always been popular with people seeking holiday and retirement homes, but in recent times it has become very important as a dormitory town for Galway City, which is only twenty-minute drive.”

The web reference was accessed today.

As I stated in the thread Mr Conroy is welcome to join once he gives reason other than wanting to “to influence An Taisce into adopting a more sensible attitude towards rural planning”

Those are his words and not mine.

I am Acknowledging the benefits of farming families being able to develop houses for family use. This is An Taisce policy Frank Corcoran has been quoted ad infinitum clarrifying this point.

To illustrate my point I will use an example of a person applying to theTemperance society claiming to want to change the policy from total abstinence to the policy being only getting drunk once a week, do you think my application would merit consideration?

The GAA is another classic example of an organisation that receives funds and has membership restrictions. Yet it receives money on both sides of the border.

If you applied to join the Pd’s and publicly stated you wanted to tell the party how “to adopt a more sensible approach towards corporation tax” i.e. Increase it to the European average of 30%

The web search I did to find this damning evidence listed only “Frank Conroy Oughterard. Where he is listed as being an agent for Matt O’Sullivan Auctioneers.

Ian Lumley was absolutley right to comment on the refusal, but he should have said listed the empty promises this guy is making. i.e.

That ‘subject to planning’ equates to no more than a mere formality and that sites around Carraroe are open to commuters and holiday home seekers to develop.

No there is no file nor bias against any area or individual, although through observing the process certain patterns emerge. Ireland is also quite a small place so peoples opinions are easy enough to assess when listed on the internet.

An Taisce deserves government money because they deliver services that deliver benifits.

But the grant in question was made by Noel Dempsey for the planning unit. In acknowledgement that development volumes had increased immeasurably and it was to help An Taisce cope with the transition.

Ian Lumley as Heritage officer and his staff delivered real value for money to the government. 63,000 wouldn’t touch Tom Phillips bonus before he left Frank L Benson.
I would put them at equal eminence in terms of ability but sadly there is now more than ever a gulf in resources.

If you know of anyone else other than Mr Conroy who has been refused membership please let me know. 🙂

I am not on the council of An Taisce my own application is currently being examined. But one does not have to hold office to know what is going on.

Merely discussing the issues in what has been the most balanced discussion I have ever seen on any web discussion ever.

Vega City was just to easy. 😀

Fin,

As stated if he has interests that don’t relate to a potential ‘conflict of interest’ he is welcome. But this guy claimed to be an independent agent while working for Mr O’Sullivan.

With the planning function transparency and independence are essential. I can imagine the cries if it transpired that members of An Taisce were seen to be influencing policy to serve their own ends.

Just to clarify An Taisce does not discriminate on the basis of

Colour
Creed
Gender
Sexual orientation
Ethniticity

It has never had an action brought against it under any area of discriminatory legislation.

I think you are probably correct when you say that he was sick of An Taisce objections to one off houses. Possibly against sites that he had sold ‘subject to planning’

Remember if a local farming family submits a planning application it never involves auctioneers they already own the land.

My guess is that he might possibly have applied out of ‘If you can’t beat them join them’ motivation.

Fin I have membership form in my hand, I would be happy to send it to you, if you wanted to complete it. People such as your self are our target market, i.e. those that can see both sides of the argument.

You’d be surprised about not fitting in.

Being an architect is considered a major plus as most of the issues relate to the visual.

Being an architect generally means that an individual would have an interest above that of a person who is not so visually aware.

But with four programmes there is some issue for many different types of people.

Regarding developers there aren’t any of your household names such as the Treasury guys or Sean Mulryan.

But there would be some within the organisation who would have dabbled, it seemed the whole country was buying something upto a couple of years ago.

I’m not worried about the refusal I think the only precedent it sets is that the integrity of the organisation was protected, against the possibility of a conflict of interest.

A bad precedent would be where a woman couldn’t become Chairperson or anything that could be dealt with under equality legislation was to occur.