Abbey Theatre is unlikely to be redeveloped at its present location

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  • #741281
    GrahamH
    Participant

    Much of which is reflected by Michael Ross this week:

    The Sunday Times – January 2nd 2005

    On the face of it, five Georgian houses, their interiors and exteriors listed for protection, constitute an unlikely place to install a national theatre. When the houses are on one of the more forbidding sides of Dublin’s Parnell Square, it might seem all the more unlikely.

    Yet all that stood between the arts minister John O’Donoghue and the announcement of the Abbey theatre’s move to the Colaiste Mhuire site on Parnell Square was the intransigence of two owners of an adjoining property that the state wants to acquire for the theatre. Collaterally, they have done the public a service by stalling and possibly scuppering a peculiar and potentially disasterous move.

    Colaiste Mhuire, formerly a Christian Brothers school, passed into state ownership two years ago as part of the compensation arrangement with religious orders in relation to abuse survivors. Although the former Carlton Cinema site nearby on O’Connell Street was preferred, its acquisition became mired in legal dispute. A site on Infirmary Road was rejected because of its distance from the city centre. For a minister in a rush to meet his self-imposed deadline to announce the new Abbey site by the end of the theatre’s centenary year, Colaiste Mhuire was a convenient option.

    No projected costs were announced for the move, no architectural treatments were sketched out, no public debate about the suitability of the site was engaged in, much less a long overdue debate about the role of the national theatre. The plan dovetailed with plans to splurge $500 million on refurbishing O’Connell Street and Parnell Square: the Abbey promised to be a vital cultural anchor in what has stubbornly remained after dark, despite the nearby presence of the Gate theatre and the Hugh Lane gallery, one of the north inner city’s more menacing boonies.

    Had it all come off as intended, thereby creating a critical cultural mass, the spending of tens of millions of euros on a private society without public debate might be less of an issue. However, as O’Donoghue beavered away to meet his arbitary deadline, potentially better alternatives were not even debated.

    A move across the Liffey to the Hawkins House site is the no-brainer. The Department of Health building there is possibly the city’s worst; the landscape would be greatly enhanced by its removal, and would allow ample space for a national theatre. The civic-mindedness of The Irish Times might usefully be appealed to, in relation to the former Irish Press building on Burgh Quay, which it owns, the site of which would provide for a suitably magnificent waterfront home for the Abbey.

    Even as the minister was working away to his wrong conclusion, other viable sites in the city centre came to the market, notably the Irish Independent building a few hundred metres up Abbey Street from the national theatre, which sold to Arnotts 13 months ago for a modest €26m. Some might think that the landmark industrial building, with its uninterrupted floors that once housed vast printing presses, might be more suitable for a national theatre than a Georgian warren. Evidently the minister knows better.

    Copyright: The Sunday Times

    #741282
    Rory W
    Participant

    @Graham Hickey wrote:

    The civic-mindedness of The Irish Times might usefully be appealed to, in relation to the former Irish Press building on Burgh Quay, which it owns, the site of which would provide for a suitably magnificent waterfront home for the Abbey.
    Copyright: The Sunday Times

    Does this guy even live in Dublin – the former Irish Press building was redeveloped over 3 years ago and is now the Immegration Bureau! Jeez talk about press accuracy :confused:

    #741283
    Anonymous
    Inactive

    @Rory W wrote:

    Does this guy even live in Dublin – the former Irish Press building was redeveloped over 3 years ago and is now the Immegration Bureau! Jeez talk about press accuracy :confused:

    I think where the confusion crept in is the former ‘Irish Times Magazine’ offices in the Corn Exchange Buildings beside the newer immigration Bureau, which has a fantastic facade, I never been in it but I think that it is only a facade retention. Where his accuracy is poor is that one of Dublins poorest apartment complexes ‘Corn Exchange Court’ is in the position that would have been ideal for developing a theatre.

    The biggest inaccuracy I’ve seen in a while was the statement that the proposed tower on the Player Wills scheme would have been taller than the Spike, well corrected.

    #741284
    Rory W
    Participant

    The Irish Times used to own the Irish Press building before it sold it on – I think the guy just doesn’t know what he’s on about.

    The Corn Exchange would have made an impressive theatre alright but is just facade retention as you said and I’d doubt you’d be able to kick out the 100 or so different owners of the apartments behind!

    #741285
    Sue
    Participant

    O’Donoghue had abit more to say about all this in the Sunday Times at the weekend. Interestingly, he raised the prospect of the GPO as a possible home for the Abbey. Smacked of desperation…. isn’t the building too shallow?

    Once his department finds a suitable site, that signature building will be erected and will house the Abbey, the minister says. But, bizarrely in a city that has an abundance of derelict sites and unused buildings, the task of finding a site has so far defied O’Donoghue.

    His officials now have a shortlist of three — Colaiste Mhuire on Parnell Square, the hideous Hawkins House (which would be razed and rebuilt) and Infirmary Road. Colaiste Mhuire should have been declared the winner in time for the Abbey’s 100th birthday, but the party was ruined by the refusal of businessmen who own part of the Parnell Square site to sell to the state at a “reasonable” price.

    “People have to realise that while the state will do everything it possibly can to be reasonable, we cannot be unreasonable to the taxpayers,” says O’Donoghue. “We don’t have unlimited resources and we are not in the business of enriching people who happen to own property which we might require.

    “It is unfortunate that I do not have any powers of compulsory acquisition, because if I did, it would be open to me to tell the owners of 1 Granby Row that if you won’t give it to me at the market value, well then I will take it at the the market value.”

    So what is the next act in the Abbey drama? “We have two sites in the melting pot — Infirmary Road and Hawkins House, headquarters of the Department of Health, where there have been many great performances over the years,” he quips. “The Office of Public Works will look at the possibility of accommodating the Abbey theatre at the Colaiste Mhuire site, but I told them I am not interested unless we can accommodate the brief that we have.

    “What is important is to get a site at market value. I’ve a feeling that it may well be possible for us to put our theatre at Hawkins House. There are other possibilities which could be looked at — such as the GPO. I haven’t even investigated it, but it definitely has more than the square footage that might be required.”

    #741286
    TLM
    Participant

    Can anyone access the full text of the Times article re the council renewing their efforts to locate the Abbey in the Carlton? I would be interested to hear more.. The GPO is an interesting idea but I think I’ve heard it said before that it’s too shallow alright. In any case it’s definitely wasted as a post office!

    #741287
    Frank Taylor
    Participant

    Aerial photo of the GPO attached.
    Could they dig a hole in the courtyard and put the theatre in there?

    #741288
    GrahamH
    Participant

    That’s an interesting pic in that the GPO Arcade is much further west that I thought it was. There seems to be enough space as a result. Presumably this is why other people were thinking about the depth being a problem – the GPO is a really huge building, most people are amazed when they see it the first time from the air.

    The Public Office also takes up less room than I thought, which in itself could make for a grand foyer. The shed bit sticking out the back could be knocked (although admittedly this is quite a chunk of the public office, with attractive windows)
    The cross-block could easily be knocked if necessary.

    Overall there seems to be just enough room for it, though measurements other than those made with fingers on a computor monitor may prove otherwise 🙂
    It does seem a bit unambitious though to use the shroud of the GPO to house the ‘new’ Abbey – then again it is easily the most prominent building in the country, on the capital’s central street…

    I don’t think the GPO is wasted as a post office – it gives the people ownership of the country’s most famous building, but certainly the vast expanse of sorting offices etc to the rear is a terrible waste of prime city centre land.

    #741289
    dc3
    Participant

    I agree that the GPO is lost in its present use.

    It would be much better suited to use as a civic museum, – where the existing and now closed facility is a deplorable comment on the Corporation / Council and people of Dublin. Having had the pleasure of a view from the late lamented Pillar, it does indeed amaze you how large the GPO site was – well it used to accomodate the GPO facilities, the Department of Posts and Telegraphs HQ and the RTE studios in the way back when.

    If you think changing the trees in O’C St caused controversy, then putting a theatre in a Gandon building would be fun to observe.

    #741290
    Paul Clerkin
    Keymaster

    the GPO isn’t a Gandon building…….. Francis Johnston

    If you think changing the trees in O’C St caused controversy, then putting a theatre in a Gandon building would be fun to observe.

    #741291
    Anonymous
    Inactive

    A period facade is about as much a link to heritage as the project needs, lets not forget that it is theatre that we’re talking about they bring their own culture to the table.

    Personal experience leads me to believe that most Abbey level actors would prefer a bold contemporary statement architecturally than to be constrained by a heritage building. I’m not suggesting that we should bring in Frank Ghery but really the Carlton and the GPO, are we taking too much influence from the sentimental ‘oirish’ plays that pander to visiting tourists?

    Definitely the Screen Cinema/ College House as the best option in terms of flexibility and location.

    #741292
    TLM
    Participant

    I think ownership of the GPO by the people can be retained while putting the building to other uses. It does’nt have to be put to a mundane use for the man on the street to feel he has an engagement with it. While having the building as a post office certainly draws people into it I think it would be preferable to have people interested and involved in the place for a more rewarding experience than posting letters.

    #741293
    Paul Clerkin
    Keymaster

    You mean more elitest experience than posting letters…
    As a post office, the GPO lets more people in to experience it than the Abbey could in a lifetime….

    More and more I am coming around to the idea that if the screen cinema / hawkins house site is unavailable that perhaps the abbey should become a touring company – the country is full of empty performing arts venues large and small…

    #741294
    TLM
    Participant

    But part of the job of the Abbey should be to open plays and drama to as many people as possible. I wonder how much people really experience the GPO rushing in on lunch breaks etc to buy stamps anyway..Accepting ony the elite will use a theatre venue is a bit defeatist..the Gaeity has a constant buzz from people using its cafe and bar as well. Other theatres double as art venues and sell the pictures on their walls. I think the Abbey needs to become a bit more inventive in general. While everything the Gaeity does might not be suitable for the GPO settling for having people just use the GPO to buy stamps just seems a bit underwhelming..

    #741295
    kefu
    Participant

    What about building a new Abbey on the site of the Garden of Remembrance?
    Close Parnell Square North to traffic and turn it into a new park/public space including whatever features considered worth retaining (the Children of Lir statue). It would turn it into a Square of Remembrance, facing on to Hugh Lane.
    The Colaiste Mhuire site could then be sold for residential development with a stipulation that the ground floors would have to hold a restaurant/cafe/and pub etc.
    That way, we would could address the serious failings of the Garden of Remembrance, not squeeze the Abbey into ill-fitting surrounds, regenerate Upper O’Connell Street/Parnell Square, and it wouldn’t cost much at all.
    All of the sites concerned are in public ownership and the only road closure would involve a little used road, which with a ibt of imagination would not be missed. A chunk of the development could also be funded from the sale of Colaiste Mhuire.

    #741296
    notjim
    Participant

    it must be too small, no?

    #741297
    GrahamH
    Participant

    Certainly an idea if it fits – as to the impact on the square at large I don’t know. Could have a positive effect though considering how built up the square is now – it’s not quite a square, not quite three streets, just in between. A new building could acknowledge that the square formation is gone now, and reshape the northern end into a more acceptable form. As it stands there’s no decent views of Charlemont House and terrace anyway.

    As for the GPO I think a post office is the most civic use applicable to any building – although yes, its architecture isn’t exactly commensurate to its use (would be in other countries). But this is part of its charm, that people swarm in and out of the building around the bases of its reassuringly huge columns all day long, most never paying any attention to it. It’s just always there, a big clunky comforting lump that everyone loves even for all its faults, and a place everyone has the opportunity to use. What I’ve always felt about it anyways…

    #741298
    notjim
    Participant

    customs house?

    #741299
    GrahamH
    Participant

    Four Courts?
    Bank of Ireland?
    College of Surgeons?
    Trinity?
    The Abbey site? – about to be vacated soon apparently 🙂

    #741300
    burge_eye
    Participant

    This is probably a stupid idea as I know nothing about the size of buidling required, but would the Bolands Mill site work (retain shell and place theatre inside)? With all the regen in that area…

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