a six lane highway from Blackrock to Sutton on the beach

It’s alonso, and you’re talking pretty much about the Eastern Bypass, a road scheme that dates back to 1971, and is part of the current DTO strategy. For my opinion, and many others, please look at the thread titled “Time to Complete the M50”.

“the waste that is Sandymount strand”
Late entrant to Archiseek’s quote of the year?

Get a grip of yourself, I love cars too but dont think we should be digging up the beach or (public squares), why dont you go down there this weekend and see how many people actually use it. It may not be Bondi or Miami beach but its what we have.
If you are talking about reclaiming some land there are better uses than a highway. Cannot picture a nice park with a highway running through it.

Benefit the whole city? By destroying Bull Island? Snap out of it.

I often wonder why nobody wants to do the obvious

You are by no means the first. You’re just uninformed.

prestressed concrete lengths and pile driving.

Pile driving defeats the purpose of land reclamation. If one was reclaiming land one would use the motorway as the outer limit of the reclaimed land by building it on a dyke or causeway. Pilings would let water flow beneath and then that would require a dyke just inside the motorway.

@PTB wrote:

Benefit the whole city? By destroying Bull Island? Snap out of it.

Pile driving defeats the purpose of land reclamation. If one was reclaiming land one would use the motorway as the outer limit of the reclaimed land by building it on a dyke or causeway. Pilings would let water flow beneath and then that would require a dyke just inside the motorway.

I would say the road should be built just along the outside perimeter of Bull Island. The edge of the island would provides the foundation for the highway and hence minimal costs. For the Bull island lovers it would guarantee the stability of their island with a real hard sea barrier.
Which is more important? Bull island beach for a few dogs to crap on or relieve the whole city of its traffic constipation?

I read that other thread alonso referred to and its only half right. I would say the city needs the full circle exiting at Sutton to Baldoyle and then up to meet the extended M50 on the best route available.
Ending at the city centre would not solve the problem nearly like a full circle would.
When it reaches land at Blackrock it could be taken to the Sandyford interchange via an elevated highway along existing routes R113.

I only mean piles to support any bad foundation but I agree with you that the highway should be on ground level and act as a raised barrier to the sea also.
I reckon if those dreamers up in Wood Quay had come up with this idea before, the money wasted on the tunnell could have been more than enough to provide that six lane highway linking the M50 on both ends and with connections into the city centre on the North side and also on the Southside. No expensive tunnelling needed and no disruption to anyone other than the seagulls.
It is the best and only economic way to remedy Dublin’s traffic problems and it has benefits of reclaiming a few thousand acres of land for leisure activities, huge swimming pools for the locals and provides a barrier to the sea as well as stopping that terrible smell that the locals dont seem to notice.
Such a beach highway would transform Dublin from being a traffic nightmare to a traffic dream.
It would save a lot of petrol diesel and frustration.

@noel o’gara wrote:

I would say the road should be built just along the outside perimeter of Bull Island. The edge of the island would provides the foundation for the highway and hence minimal costs. For the Bull island lovers it would guarantee the stability of their island with a real hard sea barrier.
Which is more important? Bull island beach for a few dogs to crap on or relieve the whole city of its traffic constipation?

I read that other thread alonso referred to and its only half right. I would say the city needs the full circle exiting at Sutton to Baldoyle and then up to meet the extended M50 on the best route available.
Ending at the city centre would not solve the problem nearly like a full circle would.
When it reaches land at Blackrock it could be taken to the Sandyford interchange via an elevated highway along existing routes R113.

The port tunnel is the first section of the eastern by-pass which will take the form of a tunnel to st. helens in stillorgan where it will continue above ground, using the land reserved for the last 30 years, to meet the sandyford interchange & complete the m50.

Any cross bay suspended highway is out of the question & will never happen, much like your car park.

@Peter FitzPatrick wrote:

The port tunnel is the first section of the eastern by-pass which will take the form of a tunnel to st. helens in stillorgan where it will continue above ground, using the land reserved for the last 30 years, to meet the sandyford interchange & complete the m50.

Any cross bay suspended highway is out of the question & will never happen, much like your car park.

The port tunnell is an abject failure that has so many failings it would be folly to start discussing them.
Your Eastern bypass idea sounds like compounding that failure many times over.
Just naming it an Eastern bypass is double speak.

People like you have your head so far up your arse that you will never see the light.
Come out of your tunnell and look at the map. Try google earth for a birds eye view.

My car park will happen because the city needs parking spaces more than a set piece of nostalgia.

Bull island is a wildlife sanctuary…… why wouldnt that come into the equation?? I cycle all over this city, just last thursday i cycled from templeoge to malahide out by amiens street and all out the coast on that amazing cycle track we have. I would hate to see that lovely road ruint by reclaiming of land! I then turned left in sutton and out the coast through baldoyle and portmarnock etc, another fantastic road that unfortunately is slowly giving way to development.

As someone who lives in Howth and has the Sutton bottleneck to deal with…this ain’t a good idea at all, but there does need to be a bypass to Sutton Cross. Behind the Marine Hotel strikes me as suitible, coming onto the Howth rd shortly thereafter.

Yeah, I’ve lost you all :p

Noel did you decide to stop informing yourself in the mid 1970’s? Show me one example on Planet Earth where an urban motorway has solved congestion. Just one example on God’s Green (depsite the likes of you) Earth from the thousands of cities that exist where a scheme like yours has done anything but untold damage in the long term (25 years at least). Let me help you. M25 London? No. Boulevard Peripherique? Nope. Hmmm The English West Midlands? ehhhh nah not really.

Now let’s have a look at the alternative uses for your new found Billions. Hmm, the DART Interconnector? The Kildare and Navan DART lines? Metro North? Metro West? Another 500 buses? Real Time Passenger Info, Integrated ticketing, the removal of car lanes and replacement with QBCs? Another few thousands bike spaces? LUAS to Finglas and Lucan? Accessibility for all of the people all of the time? The associated opening up and reinvigoration of great places in the city such as Guinness, Grangegorman, James St, Docklands, Tara st., Pearse Street, Parnell Square, Broadstone, Finglas, Kilmainham etc etc

You should be Lord Mayor, your plan is way better than mine. – A road! Genius! Where did you get that idea from. Oh yeh the 70’s.

@noel o gara wrote:

The port tunnell is an abject failure that has so many failings it would be folly to start discussing them.
Your Eastern bypass idea sounds like compounding that failure many times over.
Just naming it an Eastern bypass is double speak.

People like you have your head so far up your arse that you will never see the light.
Come out of your tunnell and look at the map. Try google earth for a birds eye view.

My car park will happen because the city needs parking spaces more than a set piece of nostalgia.

Not quite my idea or title, perhaps a quick search of the term ‘eastern by-pass’ on google will enlighten you further. Given that this has been thrown between nra, dto & government for the last 30 years, i’d have to question who’s head is where.

Cost benefit of (sorry to use the term again) the eastern by-pass, is highly questionable & it would not be on my list of priorities.
Indeed, its impact on the city centre may be nearly as insignificant as, dare i say it, your car park.

@alonso wrote:

Noel did you decide to stop informing yourself in the mid 1970’s? . – A road! Genius! Where did you get that idea from. Oh yeh the 70’s.

You’re not with it alonso. In the 70’s we didnt have the M50. Now we almost have it but its a link short of the full circle and Dublin is an ideal situation for it because of the shallow water, the congestion, the foul smelling beach, the need for more amenity land, and a three minute run from Blackrock to Howth. Its too good to be true.
Think about it alonso. Its the only way but maybe its too obvious for you. I bet you didnt even look at the map.
I may be wrong but I think its a granite base under that strand and its shallow all the way to Blackrock. If thats the case the highway would cost very little. Might not even be necessary to put a toll on the bridge unless Bertie and his boys give the concession to one of their pals.

@noel o’gara wrote:

island lovers it would guarantee the stability of their island with a real hard sea barrier.
Which is more important? Bull island beach for a few dogs to crap on or relieve the whole city of its traffic constipation?

Bull Island is not in danger of washing away. In fact is is growing larger every year. It may even join up with the mainland at sutton some time in the not-too-distant future. It’s also a UNESCO boisphere reserve, so good look in trying to overthrow that communist bureaucracy.

Such a beach highway would transform Dublin from being a traffic nightmare to a traffic dream.

No, it would just move the conjestion elsewhere.

You’re not with it alonso. In the 70’s we didnt have the M50.

Neither are you, the M50 was first concieved all those years ago. What alonso said was that your thinking dates fron the sixties and seventies when planners were slaves to the automobile and built moterways through cities at any cost. It has since transpired that that was the wrong to do and nowadays the good people in Wood Quay are providing more public transport. Public transport is, my friend, the best and only economic way to ease traffic conjestion, not building more fucking roads which only encourages more people to drive and conjestion occours again and then more fucking roads have to be built.

Noel i don’t need to look at maps of Dublin.

Oh mercy, this is providing more entertainment than all the scheduled Christmas specials combined. Thanks everyone.

*chucks away Culture and RTÉ Guide*

I was just about to say!

Is this a joke thread?
If not, consider the experience of San Francisco – the city had a coastal motorway (the Embarcadero freeway) until it was damaged in the 1989 earthquake. Instead of rebuilding, they tore it down and learned to live without it. It’s nearly impossible to believe now that the city’s greatest natural attribute could have been sacrificed for the sake of a road.
Unfortunately, we don’t live on a geological faultline so we have to live with our planning disasters for longer. The San Franciscans liked their “set piece of nostalgia” enough to restore it at the presumably great cost of rethinking their entire traffic plan.
They have a beautiful city, fair play to them. We don’t, but at least we still have “the waste” that is Sandymount Strand!

I’ve already said it but I dont seem to be getting any response.. why, oh why, the lack of consideration for bull island?!?! It has to be one of the most amazing accidents ever to happen in dublin! For those who don’t know the history of the place I’d strongly recommend that you research it, and its signifigance in terms of wildlife etc, a highway running straight through the midddle of it would just ruin it!

”They have a beautiful city, fair play to them. We don’t, but at least we still have “the waste” that is Sandymount Strand!”

Since when is this city not beautiful?! I’m only 17, and i’m still only in school, but it doesnt take a genuis to figure out that we have an amazing city? Again I’d recommend that some of the people in here leave the car at home and take a walk or a cycle down the north wall, onto bull island, out the coast road to howth, walk the hill of howth around the cliff face, or even just a walk down the docks and out to poolbeg. Then come back here and tell me that we done’e have a beautiful city!

Worth a read: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bull_Island

I’ll clarify – Dublin’s natural setting is lovely, but the city itself doesn’t make the most of it. It’s hardly one of the world’s great beauties.

@AndrewP wrote:

I’ll clarify – Dublin’s natural setting is lovely, but the city itself doesn’t make the most of it. It’s hardly one of the world’s great beauties.

Maybe the city doesn’t make the most of it, but I certainly think a lot of the citys people do.

@AndrewP wrote:

I’ll clarify – Dublin’s natural setting is lovely, but the city itself doesn’t make the most of it. It’s hardly one of the world’s great beauties.

It was, until all the Ballymagash types came up for their jobs in Dublin Corporation and Dublin CoCo some rural TD promised them. They saw a city they could not understand and a population they found repulsive. The rest is history.

@Peter FitzPatrick wrote:

Cost benefit of (sorry to use the term again) the eastern by-pass, is highly questionable & it would not be on my list of priorities.

COST: Port Tunnel to M50 junction at Sandyford via Sandymount Strand.

Forgive my “back of the envelope type calculations”, ( sur, it’s what they all do at the NRA!) I’m not a professional in this area, and will just try to make an intelligent estimate based on current project costs. I searched the internet and was unable to find any sound costing.

Sandymount Strand land cost : zero
Sandymount Strand dyke and motorway + 1 junction : 500 million
Port Tunnel to Sandymount CPO Land cost : 300 million
Port Tunnel to Sandymount via Tunnel / Road + 2 No. junctions: 700 million
Booterstown to Sandyford M50 CPO land cost : 500 million ( most of route is reserved)
Booterstown to Sandyford M50 via Tunnel / Road + 3 No junctions: 1 billion.

Total Cost : 3 Billion

Benefits:
– 900 acre land bank that is Sandymount Strand is created. Value: 4.5 billion (@ 5 million an acre)
– up to 76,500 people could be accomadated in a new futuristic city quarter. ( density 85 persons per acre)
– the sprawl of Dublin North / West & South would be reduced.
– Public Transport would be the primary method of travel within the new city quarter. (on a flat virgin 900 acre site we could hardly get it wrong)
– new space for badly needed recreational facilities in the city centre.
– ease traffic conjestion. The cost of congestion to the Greater Dublin Area in 2005 was €2.5bn. This is the single greatest threat to future investment in the region and the competitiveness of the capital city.

Peter, this scheme passes my cost benefit analysis

I do not see this motorway as the way to cure traffic congestion, although it will help HGV’s accessing the port from the SouthEast. I see this motorway as the key to unlock 900 acres of prime development land close to the city centre. Investment in Public Transport will ease traffic congestion. North Dublin will have a Metro soon(?) and already has the Port Tunnel so i wouldn’t bother building them a new motorway up along Bull Island.

A few words of modernist prose on the topic to counterbalance the ever-important cost and feasibility analysis. I was fortunate to receive attached manuscript just prior to author turning in his grave. A happy new year to all.

Proteus episode, Sandymount Strand c. 2008
by a fellow named Mr James Joyce
Publisher’s note: this passage, a newly revised version of the third episode of Ulysses, has not yet been approved by the estate of James Joyce and will do no such thing pending approval by Mr O’Gara.

Ineluctable modality of the buildable: at least a motorway if no more, thought the developer. Signatures of all things I am here to destroy, wasteland of Sandymount Strand, the prestressed concrete lengths, the pile driving, yes. Snotgreen sea, indeed. But he adds: traffic snarls. Relieve traffic snarls. How? By knocking the land for his sixlanehighway, sure. Greedy he was and a millionaire, maestro di bullshit che sanno. Fewer dogs to crap over your traffic constipation. If you can drive your five thousand cars through it, it is a motorway, if not a car park. Shut your mouth and walk.

@The Willinator wrote:

The cost of congestion to the Greater Dublin Area in 2005 was €2.5bn. This is the single greatest threat to future investment in the region and the competitiveness of the capital city.

I fully agree that congestion is a very significant threat to the national economy, but where did you get the figure of €2.5 bn? Did you calculate it? Or was it a back of the envelope job too? Just curious.

A motorway cutting off the city from the coast?

Is this a joke or is Neanderthal man alive and well and living in Archiseek?

@TheWillinator wrote:

COST: Port Tunnel to M50 junction at Sandyford via Sandymount Strand.

Forgive my “back of the envelope type calculations”, ( sur, it’s what they all do at the NRA!) I’m not a professional in this area, and will just try to make an intelligent estimate based on current project costs. I searched the internet and was unable to find any sound costing.

Sandymount Strand land cost : zero
Sandymount Strand dyke and motorway + 1 junction : 500 million
Port Tunnel to Sandymount CPO Land cost : 300 million
Port Tunnel to Sandymount via Tunnel / Road + 2 No. junctions: 700 million
Booterstown to Sandyford M50 CPO land cost : 500 million ( most of route is reserved)
Booterstown to Sandyford M50 via Tunnel / Road + 3 No junctions: 1 billion.

Total Cost : 3 Billion

Any kind of elevated roadway through sandymount strand or dublin bay will never happen … and nor should it imo. Tunneling is the only way for this thing to go. Throw the 3bn in to the interconnector.

Benefits:
– 900 acre land bank that is Sandymount Strand is created. Value: 4.5 billion (@ 5 million an acre)

Perhaps it could be shamrock shaped!

@schumann wrote:

Benefits:
– 900 acre land bank that is Sandymount Strand is created. Value: 4.5 billion (@ 5 million an acre)

Perhaps it could be shamrock shaped!

:D:D:D:D:D:D:D Let’s not get personal about the whole thing!! 😀

@ctesiphon wrote:

I fully agree that congestion is a very significant threat to the national economy, but where did you get the figure of €2.5 bn? Did you calculate it? Or was it a back of the envelope job too? Just curious.

I got the figure from the “Transport 21: Future for Dublin, A Policy Paper from the Dublin Chamber of Commerce”
[HTML]http://www.dublinchamber.ie/Uploads/Transport%2021%20-%20A%20Response%20from%20the%20Dublin%20Chamber%20-%20FINAL.doc[/HTML]

Unfortunately, they do not give their source. I was assuming that because it was the Dublin Chamber of Commerce they would be using a reputable economic “think tank”

Using the back of an envelope (Seamus Brennan style!)_and applying the The Top Down method for calculating congestion costs (Glanville WH and Smeed R J (1957) i’ll calculate my own figure This method assumes time has an intrinsic value in monetary terms. Average industrial wage in Dublin is €15 an hour

Part 1 Average Dublin Figures
Total time spent traveling in reality : 2 hrs / day
minus
(Total time if everybody could travel at free flow speed) 1 hr / day
multiplied by
(Number of people) 500,000 workers
multipied by
(no of working days in a year) 296 days
equals
(Total delay due to congestion) 148 million man hours

Part 2
(Total delay) 148 million
Multiplied by
(Value of time) €15
equals
(Total cost of congestion) €2.22 billion

@Peter FitzPatrick wrote:

Any kind of elevated roadway through sandymount strand or dublin bay will never happen … and nor should it imo. Tunneling is the only way for this thing to go. Throw the 3bn in to the interconnector.

Peter, unfortunately you speak the truth. I accept that. The reason it is so, is sad – The powerful geriatric bourgeois lobby group that is Sandymount residents.

And Noel O’Gara joining the cause isn’t helping the pro eastern bypass lobby! 🙂

I’m against tunnelling. There is no return for your money. Just another expensive road.

The reason I am passionately in favour of the eastern bypass / land reclamation project is that I would like to see sustainable communities with good public transport built close to the city centre. The road is just to open the land up for development. Build it for 3 billion, release 4.5 billion land bank.

The sprawl of Dublin, the destruction of the countryside, and workers commuting from Gorey and Monaghan to Dublin every day is unsustainable.

Dublin needs to go East!

@The Willinator wrote:

Dublin needs to go East!

Dublin needs to go up I reckon. plenty of land in the city to do that as we can see from other threads on this board.

@djasmith wrote:

Dublin needs to go up I reckon. plenty of land in the city to do that as we can see from other threads on this board.

Agreed, I’d settle for up, but it hasn’t happened and the public transport system is still inadequate for high density population living. That’s why I’d like to start afresh and create a new quarter of the city.

@The Willinator wrote:

I got the figure from the “Transport 21: Future for Dublin, A Policy Paper from the Dublin Chamber of Commerce”
[HTML]http://www.dublinchamber.ie/Uploads/Transport%2021%20-%20A%20Response%20from%20the%20Dublin%20Chamber%20-%20FINAL.doc[/HTML]

Unfortunately, they do not give their source. I was assuming that because it was the Dublin Chamber of Commerce they would be using a reputable economic “think tank”

Thanks for the link and the calculations. I’ve heard a few figures for the estimated cost of congestion, but they vary significantly depending on the calculation method used. I’d dispute some of your figures, or at least query the method of calculation, but in principle the methodology is sound. All methodologies I’ve seen have been pretty crude anyway, given the number of variables at play.

Anyway, back to the pressing if ridiculous issue of building an elevated motorway through the city’s best natural feature. As you were. 😉

@onthejob wrote:

A motorway cutting off the city from the coast?

Is this a joke or is Neanderthal man alive and well and living in Archiseek?

Take a good long look in the mirror and you will see Neanderthal man looking back into your eyes. Believe me.

Then think a little, dont get mad, use the brain you have and you might see the advantages of having a six land highway running from the M50 in Sandyford via an elevated highway to Blackrock then on to the beach and skirting the shallow water to Bull Island and skirting that on to Sutton Cross area and over another elevated highway to the beach at Portmarnock and then joining on to the M50.

That would take a sizable proportion of traffic out of the city centre and greatly relieve the logjam that now exists. Blackrock to Howth would be only a few minutes and the airport would be accessible either way all day long.

It would also cost very little because the land is largely available and it would have the added advantage of reclaiming a few thousand acres from the sea which could be used as amenity land close to the city centre.
But then a Neanderthal fellow like you would never see that.:p

Everyone keep an eye out so for Noel O’Gara buying seafront property.

Noel, do you not remember the original intention of the M50. It was billed as a Western bypass around dublin enabling the kind of North/South journey you’re talking of here. However it never actually became a part of the country’s motorway network and ended up a commuting route. Why would this road be any different.

The only way to relieve commuter hell and traffic chaos is to implement effective public transport. More roads equal more cars. I.e More congestion.

Quite apart from all that Dublin already fails to address its magnificent bay and is only slowly making amends in this regard. The last thing we need is for the bay to be put beyond all accessibility by a six lane highway!

@noel o’gara wrote:

Take a good long look in the mirror and you will see Neanderthal man looking back into your eyes. Believe me.

Then think a little, dont get mad, use the brain you have and you might see the advantages of having a six land highway running from the M50 in Sandyford via an elevated highway to Blackrock then on to the beach and skirting the shallow water to Bull Island and skirting that on to Sutton Cross area and over another elevated highway to the beach at Portmarnock and then joining on to the M50.

That would take a sizable proportion of traffic out of the city centre and greatly relieve the logjam that now exists. Blackrock to Howth would be only a few minutes and the airport would be accessible either way all day long.

It would also cost very little because the land is largely available and it would have the added advantage of reclaiming a few thousand acres from the sea which could be used as amenity land close to the city centre.
But then a Neanderthal fellow like you would never see that.:p

paul I think mr mickletterfrack might be back amongst us

@reddy wrote:

Noel, do you not remember the original intention of the M50. It was billed as a Western bypass around dublin enabling the kind of North/South journey you’re talking of here. However it never actually became a part of the country’s motorway network and ended up a commuting route. Why would this road be any different.

The only way to relieve commuter hell and traffic chaos is to implement effective public transport. More roads equal more cars. I.e More congestion.

Quite apart from all that Dublin already fails to address its magnificent bay and is only slowly making amends in this regard. The last thing we need is for the bay to be put beyond all accessibility by a six lane highway!

Yes indeed that was the original intention but then Dublin has been changing rapidly and that is accellerating and so the Council who have the responsibility of providing and building the roads must keep on planning for the future before the city grinds to a halt.
You only have to look at the M50 today to see that they are simply not capable of planning ahead even that one road bypass.
They made an absolute mess of it.
The Fianna Fail party added to that by selling the rights to the bridge, now the biggest cash cow in the country.
Then they made it worse by buying it back off the developer at enormous expense.
It may have been much cheaper to build another bridge beside that one but they never even considered that option. That would have brought the owners to their senses and some real competition if there were two crossings.
The operators didnt own the land either side nor the roads. They could have been left with their bridge and nobody using it.

Anyway as regards DCC addressing its bay you dont realise that they have been dumping I dont know how many ship loads of raw sewage in the bay per week for donkeys years. They killed off the Dublin bay prawn many years ago.
Thats some planning.
You have to ask yourself what do they do with all that crap that is gathered up every day in the city.
It doesnt vanish into thin air you know. They collect it but what do they do with it?

The councils actually are the biggest polluters in this country and they get away with it.

Putting a six lane highway on the perimeter of the bay would only enhance it and make a sea barrier to preserve it. It would also provide all that land for so many amenities.
There would still be a beach outside the highway in places.
The main attraction of such a highway would be to relieve the whole city of the worsening traffic chaos thereby saving billions of euros in petrol and diesel wasted in traffice jams not to mention people’s time.

You may win some benefits and you may lose some more. Its a possible solution that should be debated.
It would solve the traffice congestion and at a low cost but some people would lose the sight of the bay that they are used to. They would also gain other amenities and lose that terrible smell.

@wearnicehats wrote:

paul I think mr mickletterfrack might be back amongst us

I had that suspicion about BostonorBerlin. The tone, the subject matter- it all fitted so neatly.

In this case, I think it really is NOG. I’d say Do Not Feed The Troll, but I’m really enjoying watching him make a show of himself with his Junior Cert grasp of transport issues (apologies to any Junior Cert-level readers/posters).

yep, he’s blaming the City Council for the M50 now. Just how much of the M50 goes through City Council land?

well I suppose there;s that wee bit underground that’s been there for about a year and a half.

But he is right on a few things above. I guess with all the hot air he spews he had to get somethin right at some stage

Even a stopped clock is right twice a day.

And Pearse died so we could tell the time independently (when stuck in traffic on the Dublin Bay Bridge)

At least we’ll have found a new use for the Millennium Clock!

We’re heading for Venus (Venus),
But still we stand tall.
‘Cause maybe they’ve seen us (seen us),
And welcome us all…

@ctesiphon wrote:

At least we’ll have found a new use for the Millennium Clock!

We’re heading for Venus (Venus),
But still we stand tall.
‘Cause maybe they’ve seen us (seen us),
And welcome us all…

now I can’t stop whistling that feckin song. Thanks. Really, thanks a bunch 😡

@alonso wrote:

yep, he’s blaming the City Council for the M50 now. Just how much of the M50 goes through City Council land?

well I suppose there;s that wee bit underground that’s been there for about a year and a half.

But he is right on a few things above. I guess with all the hot air he spews he had to get somethin right at some stage

Your comments here just about sum up why the city is in a mess. The city council deny responsibility for anything outside their administrative area. Great for them but the M 50 was designed to relieve the city of its traffic congestion so eventhough it is not in their area Its obvious that they should all put their heads together in solve the overall problem rather than just concentrating on their own areas.

We have a situation in Athlone where the Roscommon CC gave planning permission for several hundred houses just within their border but really it is part of the town of Athlone.
Two planning authorities had opposing views but the Roscommon fellows gave the go ahead and the houses were built and sold. They were occupied and then the residents had to go to Athlone for everything.
Of course the Athlone traders were happy to sell to them but now they have a local shop and a hotel but nothing else like schools library churches offices banks etc etc. How does that sit with the planners who want to pack everyone into zoned areas with no services and they need a car just to get a loaf of bread.
Of course there was political intervention just like in the Golden Island shopping centre which devastated the whole town for more than a decade and almost relegated it to a ghost town.
Thats the kind of planning we have in the Irish Republic, or should it be renamed the Irish socialist republic to suit you bureaucratic geniuses.
When you are stuck in traffic tomorrow think of the beach 6 lane highway and how you could get so quickly to the airport from Ballsbridge at 9.0 am and costing so little you wouldnt believe it.

don’t engage he’ll start spaming you you with his thoughts on jack the ripper, how was prison noel?

Can anyone explain, Who is Mr O’Gara taking issue with?, The Government who set policy mandated by the electorate, the legal system, Elected councillors who make plans, professional planners who assess applications, county managers who grant development (or not), Architects who do what their told, or the refined sensibilities of the lay posters on this forum who have an appreciation of logic and order. Just who are the socialist bureaucratic geniuses that offend him so?

I’m all for the idea of an Eastern Bypass in principle, some time in the future after the other big projects are completed. But its all down to money, and the priority in Dublin today should be with the rail network (which is still a joke in all fairness compared to other similar European cities).

I wouldn’t agree with your route at all though, for several reasons, not least the wanton destruction of Dollymount and Sandymount strands. Are you nuts? People use these areas, not just crapping dogs. Have you no respect/appreciation for your natural environment? Dublin Bay is our greatest natural asset, we should be trying to keep it that way. So that means tunnel it or not at all.

There is already a semi-official route doing the rounds. It starts at the port tunnel, crosses the river and south docks, heads under the strand, under booterstown, pops out around the N11 and connects to Sandyford interchange. There’s your full orbital motorway, and we didn’t have to destroy our coastline in the process. Not until we can afford this plan should it be done.

This is so much fun! Incidentally, why let facts get in the way of a good argument:

@noel o’gara wrote:

It may have been much cheaper to build another bridge beside that one but they never even considered that option.

Done to death, I’m afraid. The contract signed with NTR by a genuinely corrupt politician (guess who?) in the late 1980s ensures that the operators of the toll have the _exclusive_ right to toll traffic using the M50 between the N3 and N4 junctions. How much do you reckon building a parallel motorway would cost?

@noel o’gara wrote:

they have been dumping I dont know how many ship loads of raw sewage in the bay per week for donkeys years.

Not since the sewage plant in Poolbeg was built in 2003. Sandmount strand may not have a blue flag yet, but it’s immeasurably better now than previously. However, I suspect you don’t really venture into the city often, do you Noel? Nowhere to park?

its got about as much chance as a car park in Dartmouth Square:p

m50 is currently being upgraded

Nice one missarchi. However ironically it’s those outside the noose who will suffer the strangling!

theres another bypass for that!

@Andrew Duffy wrote:

Not since the sewage plant in Poolbeg was built in 2003. Sandmount strand may not have a blue flag yet, but it’s immeasurably better now than previously. However, I suspect you don’t really venture into the city often, do you Noel? Nowhere to park?

You have to be a resident to get a disc!

Good image Miss archi

You could take it further and say that Dublin is in the noose due to a lack of a fully functional metro and rail network which will come one day

@Andrew Duffy wrote:

This is so much fun! Incidentally, why let facts get in the way of a good argument:

Done to death, I’m afraid. The contract signed with NTR by a genuinely corrupt politician (guess who?) in the late 1980s ensures that the operators of the toll have the _exclusive_ right to toll traffic using the M50 between the N3 and N4 junctions. How much do you reckon building a parallel motorway would cost?

Not since the sewage plant in Poolbeg was built in 2003. Sandmount strand may not have a blue flag yet, but it’s immeasurably better now than previously. However, I suspect you don’t really venture into the city often, do you Noel? Nowhere to park?

Your own facts are not too solid Andrew.
The sewage plant in Poolbeg is most likely the cause of that terrible stench as you drive along Sandymount beach. Well the Dublin Bay prawns are not back on the menus yet so we will live in hope for that.
I had forgotten about that new treatment plant that cost the Dubliners mega millions via DCC whose original remit and function was to provide water sewage and roads for the city. Then they were given planning.
They have been trucking lorry loads of shit to Wexford and Wicklow since it was built and spreading it on land and no doubt contractors are filling it into unused quarries and pits all over the place and at enormous expense.
Because of an EU directive they are going high tech.
This means that the council are now going to build the incinerator which will be used basically to burn the shit along with the rubbish.
Now when they talk of thermal treatment and sludge it confuses the issue but basically that is what they plan to do. Burn the shite by feeding it into the burning rubbish.
What a hair brained idea but thats what they have embarked on and you must ask yourself why the incinerator is located beside that shit collection tank called a treatment plant.
We all know that traditionally every town and city in the world was located on a river so that the current carried the crap away from the town and provided water for drinking and washing up river.
Poor old mother Liffey cannot cope with all the culchies flooding in and the DCC have a real problem disposing of all that crap.
Dont count on your blue flag for the beach if that incinerator gets the go ahead.

My six lane highway plan would provide a quick route for the shit to be carried by the truck load to the hills of Wicklow for spreading on those massive hills where nobody lives and there would be few complaints of smell.
Surely with the biggest mountain range in Ireland on your doorstep there is room for the rubbish of the capital city to be buried.
Its a win win highway no matter what way you look at it.

Those guys in the planning office think they can burn and put up in smoke all your shit of the city and they seem to have convinced the politicians. Now does that not tell you something about their grasp on reality.

Sandymount strand is a Special protection area as is protected under the EC habitats directive, As Sandymount strand is not in North mayo the area has some degree of protection. A lot of important people have ‘beachfront’ properties in sandymount, they now have a minister for the environment on side, the motorway was a non runner in the 80’s and isn’t worth discussing now.

http://www.npws.ie/en/media/Media,4439,en.pdf

A plan so stupid it was even rejected in the eighties and since then we have had the salient example of the deep regret felt by those many city who made the mistake of lining their coast line with a huge road: Why are we discussing this nonsense.

@notjim wrote:

Why are we discussing this nonsense.

Good point. Let’s stop.

Now.

@notjim wrote:

A plan so stupid it was even rejected in the eighties and since then we have had the salient example of the deep regret felt by those many city who made the mistake of lining their coast line with a huge road: Why are we discussing this nonsense.

could it be because you experts never thought of it and its so blindingly obviously the answer to many of your traffice problems as well as the problem of disposing of all that crap you generate.
Here again you have reverted to the ideas of the eighties to absolve yourself but you cant recognise the problems faced by the city for the next fifty years that need to be tackled now.
That dirt cheap six lane highway suggested for consideration by me and joining the M50 north and south, and the very thought of spreading your shit on the Wicklow hills seems to be outside your ability to consider.
Yes I guess that when you flush the toilet and walk to work in the city centre all your problems are at an end. The city however needs to be planned for all comers.
When the incinerator starts to burn the rubbish it will cost ordinary householders a lot of money and just wait until you start to smell the fumes generated by it as you sit on Sandymount beach with your kids. Those taxic fumes wont all go the way of the UK and even a man attending the rehab wouldnt consider burning his shit in his own fireplace to dispose of it. Yet that what the planners of DCC have in mind for you lads and lassies.

😮

My God you have a tiny brain Noel.

@noel o’gara wrote:

My six lane highway plan would provide a quick route for the shit to be carried by the truck load to the hills of Wicklow for spreading on those massive hills where nobody lives and there would be few complaints of smell.
Surely with the biggest mountain range in Ireland on your doorstep there is room for the rubbish of the capital city to be buried. Its a win win highway no matter what way you look at it.

.

credit where credit’s due – that paragraph’s comedy genius. I don’t believe for a second that you’re noel o’gara by the way.

I thought at first this was a troll. However, having seen http://www.politics.ie/viewtopic.php?t=20458 ( A quote: ‘These laws have turned our republic into a socialist state which is heading for totalitarianism run by bureaucrats’) I think this is really the real Noel. There’s one in every generation!

@PTB wrote:

My God you have a tiny brain Noel.

If brains was a disease you would be the healthiest man in the world.
But having said that you serve to show an intelligent reader what there is out there planning the city for us.

I know that six lane highway will never come to Dublin but I just thought you lads might be able to consider it anyway because of your interest in planning.
As the city grinds to a halt you will feel the need for it more and more but John Gormley will bring in a congestion charge before that happens and just as the councils have taken over ownership of all the roads of the towns and cities which are profitable parking areas they will jack up the meter rates and they will be swanning around in their mercs while this country muddles on for you lads.

Noel we consider this proposal all the time. We have been since the 1970’s. We’re also considering an outer motorway from Drogheda to Naas via Navan. But above all else we;re considering maximising accessibility for all to high quality public transport. As is our job.

btw what power does the Minster of the Environment have in relation to congestion charging?

Call me crazy but is there no remote chance of , say 25 years from now
infilling parts of the bay near ringsend /sandymount direction?? (for housing)
Given the insatiable demand for housing near city centre, is it mad to think this could be feasible in the long term?

@alonso wrote:

Noel we consider this proposal all the time. We have been since the 1970’s. We’re also considering an outer motorway from Drogheda to Naas via Navan. But above all else we;re considering maximising accessibility for all to high quality public transport. As is our job.

btw what power does the Minster of the Environment have in relation to congestion charging?

In the bureaucracy that we inhabit the minister has only to ask for the power and Dail Eireann will obllige. That will happen when gridlock arrives if its not already arrived and he will only have to ask for it as an emergency or an exigency of the common good.
Thats because we have had our republic stolen from us by the unconstitutional planning laws and we are ruled like children by the bureaucrats who have taken over every aspect of our lives.

As you now know Gormley is a control freak. He knows best what is good for you and now he is in power and has his nose in every development in the country from roads to light bulbs to incinerator.
He would consume more energy burning the crap in the Ringsend incinerator in one week than what he would save with the light bulbs in a full year but thats a bureaucratic decision for you. They like to keep us in the dim light while he has traded in his bicycle clips for a chauffeur.

@noel o’gara wrote:

He would consume more energy burning the crap in the Ringsend incinerator in one week than what he would save with the light bulbs in a full year but thats a bureaucratic decision for you. They like to keep us in the dim light while he has traded in his bicycle clips for a chauffeur.

Noel, can I suggest that you actually do some research, and come up with proper facts as to Mr. Gormly’s thinking?? Perhaps if you paid any attention to the world today, you would know that there have been a number of problems regarding the proposal of the ‘light build job’ at EU levels.

Also if you were tuned into reality you would realise that things like Mr Gormley is now putting foreward should have been done long long ago. Small things like having only CFC / flourescent lightbulbs, and even bigger things like say running the whole CIE fleet on bio diesel rather than the russian stuff, would be HUGELY benificial in the long term.

FAR more benificial that a ring road around Dublin….

May I suggest a walk along Dollymount Strand while thinking about the world we live in today, and how or city would be affected by a ring road, you never know, you may even meet some people on the strand that could inspire you?? perhaps even tuning into some current affairs news channel on your radio to see whats really going on in the world.

@djasmith wrote:

Noel, can I suggest that you actually do some research, and come up with proper facts as to Mr. Gormly’s thinking?? Perhaps if you paid any attention to the world today, you would know that there have been a number of problems regarding the proposal of the ‘light build job’ at EU levels.

Also if you were tuned into reality you would realise that things like Mr Gormley is now putting foreward should have been done long long ago. Small things like having only CFC / flourescent lightbulbs, and even bigger things like say running the whole CIE fleet on bio diesel rather than the russian stuff, would be HUGELY benificial in the long term.

FAR more benificial that a ring road around Dublin….

May I suggest a walk along Dollymount Strand while thinking about the world we live in today, and how or city would be affected by a ring road, you never know, you may even meet some people on the strand that could inspire you?? perhaps even tuning into some current affairs news channel on your radio to see whats really going on in the world.

Its yourself who needs to start thinking straight. Those new lightbulbs he is ordering all of us free staters to use are about fifty times the cost of the ones we use now. They are also loaded with dangerous chemicals which are poisonous if broken say by kids and difficult to dispose of. They dont give us nearly as much light and they are huge monstrosities which will destroy the beauty of so many well designed light fittings.
I could go on but wait until you are sniffing the gentle breeze of Dublins shit when Gormley starts sending it up that incinerator chimney and you wont meet many happy strollers on Dollymount strand unless the wind is blowing from the north west.
Gormley actually got into power promising to prevent that and now he is minister for planning he is backing it.
The green man has shown his true colour.
You must be very green If you think he is political green.
I often wonder what generations of Irish people struggled for to be liberated from the Brits only to be dictated to by our own gang who took over from them in every aspect of our lives. We have a history that is unequalled in Europe and now our government is ready to hand over our freedom guaranteed by our constitution when it should be a model for Europe. You lads will all help them do that because you are bureaucrats not free men.

I know how much we all miss this thread :rolleyes:

From today’s IT

TWO MAJOR road-building projects that would have relieved traffic congestion in Dublin and its surrounding areas have been abandoned by the Government.

The Department of Transport has confirmed that plans are on hold for both an outer orbital route that would bypass the Greater Dublin region and the eastern bypass that would be a continuation southwards of the Port Tunnel with a link to the M50 at Sandyford.

“They are not going anywhere for the moment,” a Department spokeswoman told The Irish Times . “The Department is focused on Transport 21 projects.” Neither project was contained in the Government’s Transport 21 plan but both have been deemed “economically and environmentally feasible” by separate studies carried out by the National Roads Authority. The spokeswoman said finance from Government coffers for the projects was “just not there” despite the NRA’s green light for both.

It is understood that the Green party, while agreeing to the completion of motorway standard links between the State’s main urban centres, is not in favour of any other costly road-building projects going ahead. The network of inter-urban routes is expected to be finished by 2010, but after that the focus in the Department is expected to shift. “From 2010 to 2015 the focus will be very much on public transport,” one source told The Irish Times.

The orbital route was to link Drogheda, Co Louth, Navan, Co Meath and Naas, Co Kildare, travelling in a semi-circle inland around the capital and its surrounding areas. It would also link up towns such as Slane, Trim, Kilcock and Kilcullen.

The road would cost at least €1 billion to build but would carry up to 55,000 vehicles per day. The eastern bypass would be a continuation of the Dublin Port Tunnel travelling south under the Liffey. It would link up with the M50 close to Sandyford.

I could go on but wait until you are sniffing the gentle breeze of Dublins shit when Gormley starts sending it up that incinerator chimney and you wont meet many happy strollers on Dollymount strand unless the wind is blowing from the north west.

Any word on the status of the incinerator?

Not so much a case of anal retention as of spontaneous combustion.

@The Willinator wrote:

COST: Port Tunnel to M50 junction at Sandyford via Sandymount Strand.

Forgive my “back of the envelope type calculations”, ( sur, it’s what they all do at the NRA!) I’m not a professional in this area, and will just try to make an intelligent estimate based on current project costs. I searched the internet and was unable to find any sound costing.

Sandymount Strand land cost : zero
Sandymount Strand dyke and motorway + 1 junction : 500 million
Port Tunnel to Sandymount CPO Land cost : 300 million
Port Tunnel to Sandymount via Tunnel / Road + 2 No. junctions: 700 million
Booterstown to Sandyford M50 CPO land cost : 500 million ( most of route is reserved)
Booterstown to Sandyford M50 via Tunnel / Road + 3 No junctions: 1 billion.

Total Cost : 3 Billion

Benefits:
– 900 acre land bank that is Sandymount Strand is created. Value: 4.5 billion (@ 5 million an acre)
– up to 76,500 people could be accomadated in a new futuristic city quarter. ( density 85 persons per acre)
– the sprawl of Dublin North / West & South would be reduced.
– Public Transport would be the primary method of travel within the new city quarter. (on a flat virgin 900 acre site we could hardly get it wrong)
– new space for badly needed recreational facilities in the city centre.
– ease traffic conjestion. The cost of congestion to the Greater Dublin Area in 2005 was €2.5bn. This is the single greatest threat to future investment in the region and the competitiveness of the capital city.

Peter, this scheme passes my cost benefit analysis

I do not see this motorway as the way to cure traffic congestion, although it will help HGV’s accessing the port from the SouthEast. I see this motorway as the key to unlock 900 acres of prime development land close to the city centre. Investment in Public Transport will ease traffic congestion. North Dublin will have a Metro soon(?) and already has the Port Tunnel so i wouldn’t bother building them a new motorway up along Bull Island.

Route Option One (€3.95bn at 2015 prices): 2.5km viaduct, nine metres above the ground, across Dublin Port, tunnel under Dublin Bay, viaduct across Sandymount strand with a tunnel under Booterstown and tunnel from the N11 to Sandyford interchange.

Route Option Two (€4.2bn): High viaduct across the Port, with a tunnel under bay, across Sandymount Strand, under Booterstown and from the N11 to Sandyford.

Route Option Three (€4.35bn): Cut and cover tunnel across the Port. Tunnel under bay, across Sandymount Strand and under Booterstown and a part tunnel from the N11 to Sandyford.

THE TIMESCALE:

2008-2011: Statutory procedures, including planning and design stage.

2012: Land purchases.

2013: Contract awarded.

2018: Eastern bypass opens.

Paul Melia
Irish Independent

This project is the biggest waste of money currently proposed in the country. It costs €4 billion to either bring people into the city centre to roads that can’t, and shouldn’t, handle any more traffic, or provide a route across the city that the M50 already provides. And €4 billion could widen an awful lot of motorway, if it was even necessary to further widen the M50. Fortunately, there is zero chance of it ever being built.

Why has this thread been resurfaced with the same post by Willinator that has also been posted on another thread? 😡