A Nation at War with its Capital City?

Good post Panda, can you post up the “great man’s” article?

http://unison.ie/irish_independent/stories.php3?ca=9&si=1715919&issue_id=14831

Capital investment: a nation’s real wealth is built on its cities
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FOR years in Ireland, political and economic debate has focussed on relocating industry and financial opportunities from Dublin to the regions.

The rationale was that people and money accumulate in the city at the expense of rural Ireland and so, it is incumbent on the elected representatives from rural Ireland to make sure some of the goodies were divvied up more equally.

Dublin has been portrayed, unfairly, as a long shadow which blights and darkens the countryside. In fact, the opposite is the case. Dublin and big cities in all countries are the dynamos of the national economy. Without the heat generated from cities, there would be no such thing as a national economy.

Ironically, senior civil servants were to the fore in implementing this ‘forced regionalisation’, yet they themselves are about to suffer from the superannuated version of their own misguided policy which is decentralisation. And surprise, surprise they don’t like it one bit.

It would be unfair to revel in the difficulties of those that who once lauded wholesale economic decentralisation because that would miss the point. The crucial factor is that decentralisation is and has always been a profoundly silly idea. It is based not on common sense but on shady political imperatives which will have an overall negative impact on the public sector.

Why do cities generate wealth? Why do cities generate inventions and why is economic history not the history of countries but the history of cities?

Cities generate innovations. Most inventions, even those which ultimately increased the yields in agriculture, were made in cities. Since the Middle Ages, cities fostered an economic dynamic usually based on trying to make stuff in the city which had to be imported in the past.

Back then, for a city to grow economically strong, it had two achieve two things: first, it had to produce nails, hammers, tools of all sorts so that it could wean itself off imports and thus, dependency; and second, it had to excel at something so that it could export and generate currency to sustain itself.

By being an economic dynamo, traditional industrial cities created a demand for food that, in turn, sustained the countryside. So this history of modern Europe and the US from the Hanseatic League and the first Puritan settlers, right up to the end of the Cold War, is the history of cities.

Countries such as Switzerland and the regions of Northern Italy and Southern Germany achieved this diverse patchwork of trading cities and towns each with their own specialities and skills. Even today, these places are at the forefront of highly profitable businesses.

Japan in the second half of the 20th century operated the same type of economic model, based largely on family firms. Ireland never developed like this and instead we have sought to attract in foreign capital by giving tax breaks. This has worked spectacularly well and at the moment, Ireland is a significant cog in the global economy’s supply chain.

But herein lies our vulnerability. We are part of a global supply chain and as such are a supply region. As long as we can supply part of the manufacturing process at a competitive cost, we are fine, but what happens when, not if, that changes?

A country we are rarely compared to is Uruguay. However, if there is one place that Ireland in the early 21st century resembles it is Uruguay of the early 20th century. It may be hard to believe now, but Uruguay was the world’s fastest growing country for almost 20 years. It had among the world’s most comprehensive social welfare system, brilliant infrastructure and, like Ireland today, a rapidly rising population driven by immigration.

So advanced was this small Latin American country, that it was termed the ‘Switzerland of the Americas’. Uruguay was in truth nothing of the sort. Like Ireland today, it was a supply region.

In its case, it was a highly efficient part of the global trade in agriculture. Uruguay was one of the world’s most competitive suppliers of meat, wool and leather. Its farms were among the most productive in the world and with the huge revenues it gained from this, the government invested in a state of the art welfare system, great schools and a European-style transport infrastructure.

Because it was so brilliant at agriculture, Uruguay did not see fit to promote other industries or innovations. Montevideo was content to process agricultural products, add value and export them.

In the 1930s things began to change. Agricultural prices fell worldwide. Uruguay suffered its first recession.

Then, after the second world war, European countries – having flirted with famine in 1945-46 – began to crank up agricultural production. Australia and New Zealand emerged as significant players in the market and Uruguay’s period in the sun came to a crashing end. Since then, Uruguay’s story has been one economic disaster after another.

In the dry language of economics, Uruguay suffered from what is termed ‘a trade shift’. The international value of what they exported fell at the same time as the prices of their imports rose. And, they had all their eggs in one basket.

SWITZERLAND, on the other hand, has thrived. Its wealth was based not on being a link in the global supply change but rather on years and years of strong domestic innovation, based in its small cities. In the future, Ireland must learn from the Swiss and not from the Uruguayans.

Things are going well today, but the real wealth of nations is built in their cities, not the countryside. Creativity, networks and competition thrive in cities and they cities should not be penalised for this by trying to relocate to rural regions which haven’t got the capacity to maintain relocated industries.

Decentralisation should be scrapped because government will work better from the city-centre out.

David McWilliams presents ‘The Leviathan: Political Cabaret’ tomorrow night at 9pm in CrawDaddy, Harcourt Street, Dublin. More details from http://www.davidmcwilliams.ie

@Cute Panda wrote:

and urban living and culture in general.

Was just reading David MacWilliams’ piece in the Indo today and you do have to wonder if there has been a political and cultural war against Dublin and urban dwellers in general in this country since the foundation of the state.

Much of it is rooted in Dev-ism, but it is really amazing how after all these years it still goes on. Polticians particulary in the West of Ireland consider Dublin to be a panecea for every problem west of the Shannon. For instance, I recently heard Dr Gerry Crowley MEP blaming the high deaths on the roads in Mayo on poor workmanship on the road repairs in the county. But he then instantly corrected himself by stressing it was not the local Mayo CoCo poor workmanship, but “the Dublin Government”. If one looks in the rural media this kind of political ‘magical thinking’ is repreated constantly. Just blame it all on the “Dublin Government” and make sure all the investment, factories, airports, civil servants is sent to rural regions and Ireland will be a paradise.

The David McWillians article today demonstrated how dangerous this anti-urbaism is for the health and well being of nations. From Uraguary to China to Ireland it hasn’t worked anywhere in fact – it has failed appallingly. Cities move nations forward, always have and always will.

I would go as far as saying that the 70 years of neglect, and at times, outright contempt for our nation’s capital was mirrored nationally by the decades of both urban and rural poverty as well as social, economic and cultural (it was Thin Lizzy, The Boomtown Rats, U2 who put Ireland on the global musical map and not Big Tom, Margo and Brendan Boyer) stagnation which all of Ireland experienced experience between 1930 and 1990. The “fair maidens dancing” didn’t deliver for any of the Irish people and the disturbing thing is the “crossroads” is still top of the Irish political agenda when one considers millions being spent on the Western Rail Corridor which will carry no more than 700 passengers a day being just as much a core element of Transport 21 as Metro North. Transport21 delivered a rail service to Ardrahan, a village in rural Galway, but at the same time did not consider 200 extra buses for Dublin Bus. Sadly the “crossroads” still matters as much as O’Connell Street, if not more among the Irish political establishment in the 21st century. The amazing thing is that you would find thousands of people standing at bus stops in Dublin in the rain who would see no problem with the WRC being reopened and Dublin Bus not getting badly needed buses. It’s almost a form of national brainwashing when you think about, so culturally entrenched is this Rural = “glorious”, Urban = “un-Irish” mindset.

I am not anti-rural, in fact I think maintaining a healthy unspolit rural countryside rather than a giant one-off “Parlon Country” suburb is just as important as developing our cities.

Double the population of Dublin, Cork, Limerick and Galway and to hell with the factory and civil service department in every village mentality. It’s a potential scenario for national destruction AFAIC – especially it the Celtic Tiger tapers off which it will eventually.

I agree totally. Frank McDonald hilighted this contempt of Dublin city by rural folk in his book the Destruction of Dublin, hilighting the appaling and ignorant attitude of the culchie TD’s attitudes toward the history and fabric of the city and urban living. Hence, Dublin’s drastic demise and destruction over the decades after independence. This contemptous attitude can be found in the rural folk (not all) who have come to Dublin to live and work and enjoy the amenities etc…. yet incessantly complain of the natives, labeling all as skangers, yet they themselves adopting the attitudes and trappings of a D4 accent and the cafe latte society.

Cute Panda,

I would have disagreed with your post until the last line which, in fairness, goes on the make the point completely missed by McWilliams. He kept talking about investing in our cities, citing the success of Switzerland, Germany et al but then completely missed the point about their multi-city approach by seemingly advocating investment in Dublin and to hell with the rest of the country (the other cities to boot).

I agree that too much money is wasted in this country by “looking after” every village from Malin to Mizen. The point I would make however is that the real loser in this approach is not Dublin, but the other main cities of Galway, Limerick, Waterford and Cork which fall between the two stools. Our government believes in urban investment (which it defines essentially as Dublin) and rural investment (everywhere else with the funds spread thinly between them, Galway city treated the same as Tuam, etc).

The decentralisation fiasco is a classic symtom of that. Whereas decentralisation would, in another country, consist of moving civil servants voluntarily to the other urban centres, here it consists of sending them to the most rural areas of the country, the very areas most unlike Dublin and thus least appealing to prospective movers. In fact decentralisation Irish style actually included moving civil servants out of Dublin AND Cork notwithstanding that there are few enough civil servants in Cork and, one would have imagined, decentralisation would accordingly have involved transferring many more civil servants into Cork – which, being at least in some respects (obviously much smaller) a city like Dublin might have proved a more attractive location for prospective movers.

I no longer live in Dublin but appreciate the many headaches involved in public transport there. Dublin’s transport problems have to be fixed but simultaneous, I would have thought, to looking after public transport in the other urban areas. I know the lack of metro to Dublin airport, the non-connection of the Luas, the delayed port tunnel etc are head wrecking for Dubliners but try being in an urban area where your buses (basically the only form of public transport) are usually cast offs from Dublin bus – as is the case in the other Urban areas – and you would appreciate that Dublin is certainly not the only or biggest casualty of our government’s attempts to please every constituency in the country with vanity projects and the like.

@GregF wrote:

I agree totally. Frank McDonald hilighted this contempt of Dublin city by rural folk in his book the Destruction of Dublin, hilighting the appaling and ignorant attitude of the culchie TD’s attitudes toward the history and fabric of the city and urban living. Hence, Dublin’s drastic demise and destruction over the decades after independence. This contemptous attitude can be found in the rural folk (not all) who have come to Dublin to live and work and enjoy the amenities etc…. yet incessantly complain of the natives, labeling all as skangers, yet they themselves adopting the attitudes and trappings of a D4 accent and the cafe latte society.

As someone who has spent alot of time in Dublin I would like to challenge this by adding that there is no one with as much contempt for Dublin as its own citizens. My evidence for this amounts to the huge amount of litter, the blas

@mickeydocs wrote:

As someone who has spent alot of time in Dublin I would like to challenge this by adding that there is no one with as much contempt for Dublin as its own citizens. My evidence for this amounts to the huge amount of litter, the blasé attitude to the erosion of Dublin’s community life, but most of all to the absolute apathy towards the architectural and cultural destruction that has been unleashed upon the city.

There is such a lack of interest in the Tribunals that essentially prove that those charged with running Dublin are more interested in lining their pockets than improving the city.

Do not blame the ‘culchies’. Blame yourself, as you elect those that run your city. You litter your city, and you have accepted the awful quality of life that is now available to you.

Yep, fair point ….but it was such a contempt in part by culchie TD’s that saw the demise of the city in the first place. Seeing it as a former HQ and symbol of the Brits, it was allowed to decay with the result that most of it’s soul and heart disappeared, communities were broken up, generations and families of traders, shopowners and merchants all lost and gone, only to be replaced with what we’ve got today in the Celtic Tiger years….a Spar on every corner. Drugs and unempolyment got such a grip on these communities that why should they feel anything but contempt for their capital city. A vital part of the city was lost forever ….but yet similar thriving communities of families of trader and merchants etc….can still be seen in cities abroad in Europe today , no matter how poor they were.

@GregF wrote:

Yep, fair point ….but it was such a contempt in part by culchie TD’s that saw the demise of the city in the first place. Seeing it as a former HQ and symbol of the Brits, it was allowed to decay with the result that most of it’s soul and heart disappeared, communities were broken up, generations and families of traders, shopowners and merchants all lost and gone, only to be replaced with what we’ve got today in the Celtic Tiger years….a Spar on every corner. Drugs and unempolyment got such a grip on these communities that why should they feel anything but contempt for their capital city. A vital part of the city was lost forever ….but yet similar thriving communities of families of trader and merchants etc….can still be seen in cities abroad in Europe today , no matter how poor they were.

The whole country suffers from Gombeen politicians and has done since the inception of the state. We have a country full of people that love to mimic and deride the British in the same breath and it would be comical except for the fact that it has severely impacted the progress of our nation for far too long.

Dublin is not different in this regard as Cork, Galway and Limerick all suffer from the same issues.

It could however be argued that Dublin has prospered due to the fact that it is no longer in direct competition with Belfast, its great 19th Century rival.

Mickey, you are correct about the litter in Dublin and the behaviour of some of it’s citizens. I hate Skangers too. But a part of me feels that much of this stems from decades of the city being unoffically unloved, respected or even wanted by the State. When was the last time you saw any kind of movement to make Irish (let alone Dubliners) people proud of their capital, it’s culture, it’s economic sucess and it’s heritage?

Yet by the same token Galway city is held up as this model Irish city, and the cold reality is that Galway city apart from the small Temple-Bar like area central area is a spead out, badly-planned souless kip. Yet it is only Dublin which has spead out too far and must be dismantled by the Government “before it falls into the Irish Sea”. Why can these West of Ireland TDs who prevented a Greater Dublin Authority and at least 2 Dublin Transport Authorities from forming because such implementations would allow Dublin to really take off as a city and region, take a look at what happened to Galway and Limerick before hey start pointing fingers at Dublin and screaming “guilty” and poor and corrupt planning?

Also many Irish provincial towns are filthy with litter and have anti-social behaviour problems as well. This is not just a Dublin issue, unless of course you want to blame the shocking litter problems in Sligo town and Cork city on Dubliners.

Also I don’t see Dublin politicans reserving planning permission for locals only to keep the Culchies out inthe same way several West of Ireland councils have implemented such propsals with pride. Could you imagine if Dubliners declared that Poolbeg was “Dublin’s Electricity” in the same way that Corrib is “Mayo’s gas”. How come it is only Dubliners who have no problem sharing their wealth and city with the rest of the country and it’s all GAA county colours and “feck off this is all ours” everywhere else?

You talk about Dubliners messing up their city, but the same can be said of the rest of the country as well. But the difference is that Dublin and it’s politicans do not go out and destroy the growth and potential of the rest of the country the way rural TDs feel they have an obligation to do with so Dublin. In many parts of this country TDs run for office on little more than anti-Dublin platforms. Many Dubliners would be shocked if they knew the level of hatred expressed towards them and their city by most of the people in “the Dublin Goverment”.

I don’t blame the ordinary people outside Dublin for this, more their poltical representatives and the organisations from the regions. Most ordinary people outside Dubln are not anti-Dublin, this is more a mentality among the rural elite, who have no more respect or interest in their own people than they do Jackeens. They just use Dublin as an excuse for all their own shortcomings and to hide their own incompetence. Take this recent article in the Tuam Herald recently were the local po;iticians were complaing about how it is everyones fault but their own that the Tuam by-pass is delayed.

Tuam Town Council on Monday night described the delays in starting the Tuam by-pass as an insult, adding that the oral hearings for the project were the shortest in the history of the State due to the co-operation of the landowners along the Tuam route.

However one public representative who asked not to be named because of the sensitivity of the issue told The Herald “If we had not had so much time wasted over nonsense about saving swans and the like and people trying to cash in on a planning bonanza the work would have been well underway or completed by now. The blame for this set-back is closer to home than some public figures care to admit.”

http://unison.ie/tuam_herald/stories.php3?ca=34&si=1712329&issue_id=14806

But the fault always lies to the East with the “Dublin Government” doesn’t it… This need to point the finger of blame away from themselves is what drives much of this anti-Dublin psychosis among Irish politicians and the rural elite.

Ironically this sustained 70 year attack on Dublin and Irish urban life has perhaps damaged the potential of regions outside Dublin and in particular other cities like Cork and Limerick as much as it has Dublin. Like I said, the “Fair Madiens dancing at the Crossroads” was and always will be a recipe for national destruction.

Ironically this sustained 70 year attack on Dublin and Irish urban life has perhaps damaged the potential of regions outside Dublin and in particular other cities like Cork and Limerick as much as it has Dublin. Like I said, the “Fair Madiens dancing at the Crossroads” was and always will be a recipe for national destruction.[/QUOTE]

Cute Panda, that is essentially what I was saying in my message above. I do genuinely think that the disadvantage Dublin suffered down through the first years of the State is presently being rectified. I don’t have figures but I’d say 50%+ of spending envisaged in Transport 21 is on Dublin. If you added in the Motorway network (which is essentially a route network from Dublin to the whole of the country, it certainly aids Dublin more than any one particular place as they are getting several routes, everywhere else gets one) then this figure must be 85%+.

For the record I’m based in Cork and, to be wholly parochial about it, I feel that Cork has come off worst of all from the crazy City/Country divide in Ireland. As I said above, the Regional Cities are treated as part of the Countryside and get pitifully little capital investment per capita relative both to Dublin and rural towns and villages. Just because Dublin was treated lamentably in only getting (the first vestiges of) proper public transport recently doesn’t mean we should repeat the error of our ways in the other cities too. Again to speak from my own point of view (I’ll let Galway and Limerick posters put forward their own case), there are 450,000+ people living within a 25 mile radius of Cork and there are numerous cities throughout Europe of that size with fine light rail and tram networks. Transport 21, created at a time of unprecedented wealth and which purports to plan for the long term future, doesn’t come within an ass’ roar of even considering doing something similar here.

As Cute Panda puts it, we should double the population of our cities (its already happening). If we do that though, we need to invest heavily IN ALL OF THEM (which I think is what McWilliams probably meant to say in the first place). This is not as to say though that I begrudge the (belated) investment in Dublin.

and it’s politicans do not go out and destroy the growth and potential of the rest of the country the way rural TDs feel they have an obligation to do with so Dublin.

Utter tosh. TD’s are elected to run Ireland, not Dublin. The very problem with Dublin – it’s size relative to the rest of the country – is what makes Dubliners think that the National Government is a local Dublin government. TD’s dont run Dublin, but Ireland.

Repeat 100 times on the blackboard.

@browser wrote:

Ironically this sustained 70 year attack on Dublin and Irish urban life has perhaps damaged the potential of regions outside Dublin and in particular other cities like Cork and Limerick as much as it has Dublin. Like I said, the “Fair Madiens dancing at the Crossroads” was and always will be a recipe for national destruction.

Cute Panda, that is essentially what I was saying in my message above. I do genuinely think that the disadvantage Dublin suffered down through the first years of the State is presently being rectified. I don’t have figures but I’d say 50%+ of spending envisaged in Transport 21 is on Dublin. If you added in the Motorway network (which is essentially a route network from Dublin to the whole of the country, it certainly aids Dublin more than any one particular place as they are getting several routes, everywhere else gets one) then this figure must be 85%+.

For the record I’m based in Cork and, to be wholly parochial about it, I feel that Cork has come off worst of all from the crazy City/Country divide in Ireland. As I said above, the Regional Cities are treated as part of the Countryside and get pitifully little capital investment per capita relative both to Dublin and rural towns and villages. Just because Dublin was treated lamentably in only getting (the first vestiges of) proper public transport recently doesn’t mean we should repeat the error of our ways in the other cities too. Again to speak from my own point of view (I’ll let Galway and Limerick posters put forward their own case), there are 450,000+ people living within a 25 mile radius of Cork and there are numerous cities throughout Europe of that size with fine light rail and tram networks. Transport 21, created at a time of unprecedented wealth and which purports to plan for the long term future, doesn’t come within an ass’ roar of even considering doing something similar here.

As Cute Panda puts it, we should double the population of our cities (its already happening). If we do that though, we need to invest heavily IN ALL OF THEM (which I think is what McWilliams probably meant to say in the first place). This is not as to say though that I begrudge the (belated) investment in Dublin.[/QUOTE]

There is nothing in Transport 21 for Cork’s road,rail,port,public transport or airport infrastructure in fact there are projects essential to the development of the city actually being put on the long finger like the Kent Station / Horgans Quay re-development etc.As a Dub in Cork I realise after moving here that Cork is probably the only city right now capable of providing an alternative to the crass overdevelopment of our capital and has the population and mass to entice civil servants and private companies to re-locate.The anti-Dublin/Capital City rant was and will always be there and exists in all Europaen countries. May God help us all and protect us from Martin Cullen – Incompetant Man Walking.

A worthy and timely issue for discussion Cute Panda – but it very much relates to urbanism in general as browser has summed up very well, and something that McWilliams didn’t clearly point out. In that respect it’s no wonder people feel an anti-Dublin bias. It’s the widespread anti-urban mindset that is key, not anti-Dublin.

The pathetic transport infrastructure in regional cities and towns speaks for itself, with Cork in particular having the most astonishingly lacking bus services. Whatever about light rail and other flights of fancy, for the second city not even to have a decent bus service for its sprawling suburbs is akin to Crumlin being entirely car dependent. It beggars belief how that city has and is being treated by CIE and its unions.

It’s a problem countrywide – urban cores across the country are seen as places to shop on a Saturday, for lawyers and solititors and small business personnel to ponce about in in their lunch hour, and to drive to in your car as a novelty experience. Not places to live, not places to go about your daily business and certainly not places to bring up a family heaven forbid. Across the country, our urban centres are being packed to the gills with three storey crappy tax-break apartments to cater for first-rungers and students attending the local IT/university. Otherwise it’s sprawl sprawl sprawl.

Frankly the anti-Dublin bias pales into insignificance when one considers what’s being done to small town urban Ireland. Planners and councillors don’t have a notion how to consolidate and logically expand existing centres. Developers are dictating the terms everywhere with mindless estates, with the local authorities playing catchup, laying down the minimum of terms and conditions. At least Dublin’s planners have an idea what they’re about now – outside the capital it’s either semi-d sprawl or inner-urban bedsits.
Urban loses again. Though saying that, so does rural – villages are neglected whilst retail parks and ranks of houes gobble up the rural outskirts of towns.

Good post Graham,

I was worried that it was descending into a Dublin Vs the rest thread. There is a Dublin mindset that treats the rest of the country as a farm but the rural politicians do like to engage in us versus the dUBLIN media or dublin government etc.

I lived in Cork city centre in the 90’s and it was a disgrace the way it was managed; shopping on a saturday, drinking on a saturday night. Place was like a bomb hit it on sunday, but nobody cared because there was no one around and nothing open, everyone had headed off to kinsale. The litter & puke was cleaned up some time Monday afternoon.

As for sustainable consolidation and expansion of our towns and villages, is there good examples anywhere? Some of the west cork towns have done a reasonable job I’d say, Clonakilty, skibereen. Far away enough to be out of the commuter belt.

Seriously it hasn’t yet sunk in. Here is a ridiculous quote from GregF

Yep, fair point ….but it was such a contempt in part by culchie TD’s that saw the demise of the city in the first place. Seeing it as a former HQ and symbol of the Brits, it was allowed to decay with the result that most of it’s soul and heart disappeared, communities were broken up, generations and families of traders, shopowners and merchants all lost and gone, only to be replaced with what we’ve got today in the Celtic Tiger years….a Spar on every corner.

Really. No… But seriously ( ignoring the fact this nonsese would be considered racist were the outsiders immigrants and not just “culchies”, a derogative term) lets say it again:

TD. Trachta Dala. Elected to run the National Parliament. Ireland. Not Dublin. No more responsible for the demise of Dublin than German Federal Parliamentarians would be responsible for problems in Bonn, or Berlin ( now).

And really, get over yourselves. Dublin has produced most of the corrupt politicans in the country ( name them), the most corrupt councillors, and the most inept city management in Europe. Learn to blame yourselves.

And the anti-Urban anti-Dublin bias has produced the most centralized State in Europe, with the largest population in one urban centre relative to the country’s overall population structure in – I want to say the World – but prove me wrong.

Dublin’s problems are not to be blamed on a mythical “anti-Urban” bias which made Dublin far too large relative to the rest of the country but the utter incompetance of Dubliners who are charged with running their own city – not culchies – and the inability to blame themselves when they mess it up, but to transfer the blame onto outsiders.

( and it is not true that urban centres outside Dublin are as bad as Dublin: the medium sized towns, Kilkenny, Tralee, Clonmel, Wexford, etc.- all have problems, but are run well, and cleaner, with more civic involvement than Dublin).

It is time to end the perennial Dublin whine. Fix up your own problems and stop blaming the countryside.

@asdasd wrote:

and it is not true that urban centres outside Dublin are as bad as Dublin: the medium sized towns, Kilkenny, Tralee, Clonmel, Wexford, etc.- all have problems, but are run well, and cleaner, with more civic involvement than Dublin

I don’t agree. Take transport, for example. In Dublin, ok, we&#8217]never ever [/I]hear about what’s going to be done about this, like you constantly hear about the strong medicines cities will have to take for their transport problems. In this respect the medium and smaller towns of Ireland have an infinitely more unsustainable transportation (and thus also land-use) pattern than the cities do. I wonder when media focus on this will begin?

Anto, Devin – I would have to agree with the argument in your posts. I think Dublin, for years neglected in terms of a proper transport plan, is finally getting its act together. Or at least I should say it is finally a political issue of huge significance in Dublin and its hinterlands, and hence action is demanded. Alas, in places like Cork, it is still not an issue at the top of the priority list and the reality on the ground reflects this. The public transport system in the city is still a complete joke and is nowhere near what it should be. Cork came out with a very enlightened plan called LUTS (Land Use & Tranportation Plan) back in 1971, but alas only the roads element in that plan was addressed. The commuter rail and bus elements were kicked to touch and thus we are basically left with the same bus routes in the city that we had 20 or 30 years ago. True, the Cobh/Midleton line is finally being upgraded/reopened and a new (albeit limited) park and ride facility has been put in place. However, it is still not part of an integrated plan. Cross-town ticketing, bus/rail interchange, greater bus frequencies, cycling lanes…all still a distant dream. The net result is that commuters don’t have an option but to drive into town.
And while the city council exhort us mere mortals to get on a bus and leave the car at home, they still saw fit to include 300 car parking spaces in their city hall extension while restricting it for any other developer in the city! Obviously their own rules don’t apply to themselves.
I am all for publin transport but I also realise that people need a viable alternative to private transport for this to work. Thankfully, the mess that is the new Cork Airport and the delapidated train station are angering people who are just saying enough is enough and demanding political action. Let’s hope Cork and the other provincial cities see the light soon, because the alternative is more of the same except worse:eek:

The attempt to demonize almost two thirds of the nation’s population through discriminatory rhetoric and unsubstantiated accusations displayed in a number of these postings is disgraceful. The moderator would do well to moderate the discussion into one that examines the problems objectively and that does not seek to isolate a large sector of the populace or blame them for the woes of one city. I would ask the moderator to act proactively and responsibly in this instance.

@asdasd wrote:

Seriously it hasn’t yet sunk in. Here is a ridiculous quote from GregF

Really. No… But seriously ( ignoring the fact this nonsese would be considered racist were the outsiders immigrants and not just “culchies”, a derogative term) lets say it again:

TD. Trachta Dala. Elected to run the National Parliament. Ireland. Not Dublin. No more responsible for the demise of Dublin than German Federal Parliamentarians would be responsible for problems in Bonn, or Berlin ( now).

And really, get over yourselves. Dublin has produced most of the corrupt politicans in the country ( name them), the most corrupt councillors, and the most inept city management in Europe. Learn to blame yourselves.

And the anti-Urban anti-Dublin bias has produced the most centralized State in Europe, with the largest population in one urban centre relative to the country’s overall population structure in – I want to say the World – but prove me wrong.

Dublin’s problems are not to be blamed on a mythical “anti-Urban” bias which made Dublin far too large relative to the rest of the country but the utter incompetance of Dubliners who are charged with running their own city – not culchies – and the inability to blame themselves when they mess it up, but to transfer the blame onto outsiders.

( and it is not true that urban centres outside Dublin are as bad as Dublin: the medium sized towns, Kilkenny, Tralee, Clonmel, Wexford, etc.- all have problems, but are run well, and cleaner, with more civic involvement than Dublin).

It is time to end the perennial Dublin whine. Fix up your own problems and stop blaming the countryside.

Just to add to what has already been said Dev’s ideal Ireland was one of devout god fearing catholic potato gatherers in green fields with virginal women dancing about the boreens. This ideal undeniably permeated Irish society until around Mary Robinson became President. It still lingers on in parts of the country. Dev’s croanies whether Dubs or not felt much obliged to tow the line rigidly believing in such stupid ideology, hindering the country for decades. As a result, architecture and city life suffered, inner city Dublin which sets the precedent for the rest of other Irish cities and Irish Life in general being victim ubhir ahoin.

All countries have some tension betwen the capital city and the rest of the inhabitants. Ever hear French people going on about stuck-up Parisians? The people in Washington? …

What is Irish policy on urbanism? is there one?

I had a thick boss once who told me that all the issues we were facing were priorities. Policy on land use in Ireland seems similar: We need to halt population decline in all areas: rural, village, town and city.

Rural areas have more community spirit than urban areas, but the dark side of communuity is parochialism. No policy should benefit a single constituency at great cost to the country as a whole yet this seems to be what all politicans around the country fight for.

Anyone remember the Mercury Soap plant that supplied poisonous skin products to Africa from Wicklow for decades? Locals interviewed on the TV at the time all emphasised the jobs being created. Reminded me of Ibsen’s ‘An Enemy of the People’.

I think we all basically agree with the same general point. The issue here is that the 7 decade long cultural and political war against Dublin by the rural elite has resulted Cork, Limerick and Galway cities by default being the biggest losers of all in terms of their growth and development. This is why Limerick and Navan get nothing from Transport21, while Cork a commmuter rail service they properly planned and were waiting 25 years to get. This is why you have an applling teachers to pupil ration in Dublin and practically a ono-on-one education experiance for children in rural Ireland. Who is really being disadvantaged here?

It’s a culturally entrenced hatred of urban life among the Irish esthablishment and an elevation of rural culture to what represents real Irishness which is a major part of much of this country’s issues since the formation of the state.

I disagree about the urban/rural struggle being the same in all countries. Show me one other country in world were the capital city and main economic center was left to die (and dismantled) the way Dublin was, and not by a foreign occupying force, but by politicans from the countryside? In terms of the Irish experience under Dev it is perhaps most compareble to Cambodia under Pol Pot, (without the Khmer Rouge genocide of course), than to the situation in France – Paris thrived because they had a local goverment, Dublin died because gombeenmen from Donegal and Mayo were the city fathers. Sure the PolPot comparision to Dev is a bit OTT. Dev was not evil. But the same psycholgical undercurrent applies, the distrust of urban dwellers and the need to reform them by converting them into rural peaseants. In European terms I think this is unique to Ireland. City dwellers and townies were and still to a extent today were Ireland “unpersons” as Orwell put it.

Should be interesting to see how these new immigrants change Ireland. I personally think it’ll be for the better and I can’t see any of them wanting to live in a one-off, driving their kids 20 miles to GAA practice and so on.

They will fill our towns and cities. You see this already happening around the country and it’s briliant to watch. Most towns are filling up with immigrants who want an easy, on their doorstep civic life, while the Irish are moving into one-offs on the side of a mountains and then calling up the local radio stations complaing about how far the school and shops are, and the how “the Dublin government” has to do something about the poor postal service around here and the price of petrol.

What a pity they have been brainwashed to accept a Barefoot Deception at the Crossroads, their lives would have been so much easier if they lived in a town or city.

@Frank Taylor wrote:

Rural areas have more community spirit than urban areas.

Places like Ballymun, Fnglas, Ballyfermot and many of the traditional working class neighbourhoods in Dublin have fantastic community spirt and I am sure the same in true in parts of Cork and Limerick cities as well.

As for rural community spirit and involvement. You take the GAA and Catholic Church out of rural Ireland and your left with nothing to being people together. All the other groups are in the towns.

Rural Ireland is on many levels an unsustainable wasteland of drunk drivers and social isolation if you are neither a GAA supporter or filling your bottle with holy water at Knock. Rural Ireland never really worked and never will except for people who have a vested interest in being there. It is highly vunerable when things go wrong. How many died in the famine and how many emigrated from rural Ireland? Cities and towns are more secure in times of economic downturn. Safety in numbers.

If the petrol stopped arriving at North Wall tomorrow, what’s “Plan B” for the one-offers in rural Ireland? Answer, there is none. They are completely screwed.

Actually, asdasd, you’re wrong on a few points which you have made.

Firstly, you say that Dublin has the most people in it in relation to the national population in the world. Referring to my The Economist: Pocket World in Figures, 2006 Edition, Dublin is 20th in the world with 25.7% of the nation’s population. In first comes Singapore City with 100% of the population.

Secondly, you’re point about TDs(Teachta Dáil, not Trachta Dáil as you said), since they represent Ireland as a whole, the focus should lie on where the most of Irish people live. Since Dun Laoghaire, Tallaght and Swords have larger populations than whole counties elsewhere in the republic, then these places should get the same focus as these counties on the basis of having the same number of citizens.

Thirdly I address your focus on the corrpution of county councillors and TDs. Charlie Haughey may have represented North Dublin but was born in the country so therefore the ‘blame’ should lie between both Dublin and the country. In fact I do not think that inept managers of a city are a slur on the place they represent as many can lie and confuse otherwise good voters in that locality. Equally the fact that there are simply more TDs and councillors in Dublin does heighten the risk of corrupt official due to mathematical probability.

Futhermore, your contention that Ireland is the most centralised nation in Europe, I refer you to Luxembourg, the Vatican, France, Malta and Iceland in which the capital is much more of a centre than Dublin. In fact, Greece, twice the size of Ireland and spread over hundreds of islands has a larger proportion of its nation’s populace living in the sight of the Acropolis.

And in finality, you lectire GregF on his use of derogative language yet you seem perfectly entitled to label Dublin councillors and TDs as ‘corrupt’ and Dubliners ourselves ‘whiners’.

Show me one other country in world were the capital city and main economic center was left to die (and dismantled) the way Dublin was, and not by a foreign occupying force, but by politicans from the countryside

An important point, but slightly skewed. I don’t think it was entirely an ‘anti Dublin’ bias that was perpetrated but an anti progress one. Since the cities were where ‘progress’, or at least progressive forces were concentrated, they felt the effects the most. Progressive influences were also stamped out in the countryside, but since they were less prevalent and less visible, the effect was less noticeable. The Pol Pot reference is obviously extreme, but not far off in terms of general intent, if not extent. The reasons behind it are complex but I think other posters have captured it well; a mix of nationalistic, regressive, cowardly and jealous motives. In many ways our electoral and constitutional systems have exacerbated this in the manner in which they establish the primacy of the local in supposedly national politics.

I wouldn’t term it a “7 decade war” either, it was never a ‘war’, and was only focussed in a meaningful sense between the years 1932 and 1959, but the consequences of it are very obvious. Our cities (plural) heve never regained their status as corporate or political entities in their own right, and have never been able to plan themselves, or their hinterlands, properly. Corks partially successful attempts are noticeable by the areas in which they haven’t worked – in the timely delivery of public transport.

(puts soapbox away for the day)

@Cute Panda wrote:

I think we all basically agree with the same general point. The issue here is that the 7 decade long cultural and political war against Dublin by the rural elite has resulted Cork, Limerick and Galway cities by default being the biggest losers of all in terms of their growth and development.

Nope, I doubt many people agree with this point. Give us some examples of this war (apart from the WRC). Dublin elects a proportion of TDs relative to its population and they work on Dublin and national issues. Bad planning in Dublin, sprawl etc was created by Dubliners – not with malice they just screwed up. Yes Dublin pays more tax per capita than the country but then we earn more money because cities are more economically viable places.
Because people live closer together in the city, a euro spent here goes further in providing services than in the country. Rural areas will always have crap services compared to the cities no matter how much is spent on them.

Places like Ballymun, Fnglas, Ballyfermot and many of the traditional working class neighbourhoods in Dublin have fantastic community spirt and I am sure the same in true in parts of Cork and Limerick cities as well.

Well, this is certainly true. Poorer areas have better community spirit because of reduced mobility from lack of cash, jobs and cars. It’s amazing to see the difference between street life in a housing estate in Clondalkin versus one in Dalkey. Of course there are more obvious social problems too.

I think a lot of middle class Dubliners have zero interest in what country people do or how they live and certainly don’t see themselves as oppressed by them. Their traditional hatred is aimed towards working class areas, usually on the basis that they receive too much money from the government (housing and welfare) and that they are responsible for crime and drugs. This attitude doesn’t seem a million miles away from yours.

I doubt the culchie poor mouth stuff works too well in Dublin, given that we are past masters of the art form as shown in Europe.

@Frank Taylor wrote:

I think a lot of middle class Dubliners have zero interest in what country people do or how they live and certainly don’t see themselves as oppressed by them. Their traditional hatred is aimed towards working class areas

Most middle class Dubliners until the Celtic Tiger were almost exclusively from rural familes no more than one or two generations back. They came up to Dublin to work in the civil service, semi-states, Garda and teaching and took their bias towards “commoners” with them. Likewise their ancestors would have looked down on poor people in rural Ireland with equal distain. They just transplanted their “peeking through the lace curtains” mentality with them to the capital.

The came, the saw, they hated and took the train back to Mammy and Mass on the weekends until they got a “site” in Drumcondra and Dundrum and became middle class. This is also why Dublin never had a communter rail network until the 1980’s – the railways were only needed to take the “middles classes” back to Mayo and Clare on friday evenings. The working classes (translation “native Dubliners”) were tranplanted out of sightand mind to refugee camps in Tallaght, Mulhuddart etc.

I fully accept that my post is flirting dangerously with hyperbole and generalisation (even though they are essentially correct).

Looking at the point vilage thread and keeping the docklands in mind i’m thinking maybe it’s STW that are at war with the Capital;)

@Cute Panda wrote:

Most middle class Dubliners until the Celtic Tiger were almost exclusively from rural familes no more than one or two generations back.

Well this is true in the case of any middle class Dubliners born in the 1930s/1940s that I know – but that’s a very small sample size!

Anyhow you may consider joining the CCP
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3T54TU8bsj8

All development of cities and towns halted in favour of suburbanisation around 40-50 years ago. Developers would happily have made more cash from building terraced streets at higher densities so we can only blame policy. So I would say that this has been the major obstacle to urban development.

Most middle class Dubliners until the Celtic Tiger were almost exclusively from rural families no more than one or two generations back

That is nonsense. Dublin 4 is a self serving oligarchy – and the snootiest group in the country – with roots going back generations to the Old Norman town. People born in Dublin are Dubliners, anyway, and blaming their antecedents in the countryside is contemptuous nonsense, and typical of the parochial nature of small minded Dubliners ( not other “cosmopolitan city” harks back to the rural antecedents of it’s denizens – which is true, going back the generations, of most). This Dublin “nativism” is pathetic drivel.

Let me re-iterate. The problems with Dublin – which are systemic – are caused by Dubliners: Dublin incompetence, Dublin gombeenism, Dublin corruption. Redmond, Burke, Haughey and more. Dublin Corporation is responsible for Dublin’s failure as a city, not the national government ( despite the mass recent subsidies), and has supplied the National Parliament with most of the corrupt politicos of the last few years.

I associate the accent of Dublin – particularly the northside – with incompetence, insouciance, and contempt. It is the accent of the bad tradesman, the surly busdriver, the unconcerned public official, the street lout, the gombeen taxi-driver: and so on. Country accents in the city are – for obvious reasons – more educated ( as the non-educated stay in their towns or villages or migrate to the nearest large town or city) but nevertheless and despite the advantage or myriad Third Level institutions Dubliners are class for class less educated, less civic minded and more contemptuous of their surrounding environment.

Dublin is a mess, not because of Culchies but Dubliners.

I refer you to Luxembourg, the Vatican, France, Malta and Iceland in which the capital is much more of a centre than Dublin. In fact, Greece, twice the size of Ireland and spread over hundreds of islands has a larger proportion of its nation’s populace living in the sight of the Acropolis.

Luxembourg, Malta, Iceland have populations less than a million, so I am going to count them out, I am afraid as exemplers for larger sized countries ( compare with Denmark, or Scotland, about our size). Think I’ll count out city States too, which by their nature, would be 100% of the country ( one assumes you dont want Dublint o sprawl that much?). France has a population of 61 million and greater Paris is – in the largest estimate of the metropolitan area – 11 million ( but 2 million in the city “proper”). Which is way too high, but one sixth. And yes, about 30% of Greeks live near Athens, Dublins nearest competitor in relative size in Europe, and , of course, the world’s most succesful city.

Not.

@asdasd wrote:

Dublin is a mess, not because of Culchies but Dubliners.

Dublin (and Cork, Galway, Limerick) are a mess because of an ingrained distained of urban living in this country fostered and implemented by the rural elite through the trappings of the state and the civil service. You see it mirrored in many ways to this day. For instance, the government pours millions every year into the playgrounds of the rural elite in the form of golf courses and horse racing, but real playgrounds for urban children hardly exsist. There are countless other examples from terrible public transport in Irish cities to educational disadvatage. There are people today driving 3 hours to work and back in this country as a result of this anti-urban culture.

This “strong rural bias” has damaged the entire country both urban and rural. Have you ever read the transcripts of some of Dev’s radio speeches on his social engineering? He makes is clear that the town and city dweller has no place in Irish society. He got his way too and the whole nation suffered.

You have to admit that Liam Lawlor and Ray Burke, both Dubliners, are prime examples of destructive forces towards Dublin that can’t be blamed on anti-urban bias.

@dev wrote:

That Ireland that we dreamed of would be… a land whose countryside would be
bright with cosy homesteads, whose fields and villages would be joyous with the
sounds of industry, with the romping of sturdy children, the contests of athletic
youths, the laughter of comely maidens, whose firesides would be the forums for the
wisdom of serene old age. Eamonn DeValera, The Irish Times, 18 March 1943

Ha ha ha.
Ireland was a much more rural society in 1943. Cities were plagued with heavy industry

Anyone remember John Major saying this about England:

the country of “long shadows on county grounds, warm beer, invincible green suburbs, dog lovers and pools fillers and – as George Orwell said ‘old maids bicycling to holy communion through the morning mist’.

Not very different from Dev’s rubbish. Just some sentimental stuff for the voters. I wouldn’t read anything into it. Anyhow CutePanda, you missed decentralisation where the government attempts to move 10,000 jobs to their constituencies over 5 years, while 50,000 jobs are being created in Dublin each year. Har har.

@Frank Taylor wrote:

You have to admit that Liam Lawlor and Ray Burke, both Dubliners, are prime examples of destructive forces towards Dublin that can’t be blamed on anti-urban bias.

Absolutely. But perhaps the prevailing anti-urban cultural landscape allowed them to do this? They did not go down to Kerry and Mayo and knock farm buildings the way TDs from Donegal went up to Dublin and demolished part of Fitzwilliam Street.

The John Major speech is a hardly relevant as it was just a bit of typical election waffle. The difference is that a whole nation and society was create on Dev’s waffle. Britain was not built in John Major’s image, but Ireland was most certainly was built on Dev’s.

I have mixed feelings on De-centalisation as I am not sure how it will work out. In this day and age with technology it is more manageble than it would have been in the past. So who knows, it’s a political scam of course, but I am still not sure if it’ll be a good or a bad thing in the long run.

Dublin needed the 50,000 jobs per-annum more than “Parlon Country” needed a re-election tactic. That’s for sure.

As the saying goes: Never assume malice when stupidity will suffice

So country people are working as secret agents to destroy Dublin. You have to wonder though, if the culchies are destroying the cities, then who’s destroying the towns and villages and rural beautyspots? The jews?

@Frank Taylor wrote:

As the saying goes: Never assume malice when stupidity will suffice

So country people are working as secret agents to destroy Dublin. You have to wonder though, if the culchies are destroying the cities, then who’s destroying the towns and villages and rural beautyspots? The jews?

I invoke Godwin’s Law.

ha ha

anyhow I reckon the real enemy is suburbanisation

@asdasd wrote:

…………Let me re-iterate. The problems with Dublin – which are systemic – are caused by Dubliners: Dublin incompetence, Dublin gombeenism, Dublin corruption. Redmond, Burke, Haughey and more. Dublin Corporation is responsible for Dublin’s failure as a city, not the national government ( despite the mass recent subsidies), and has supplied the National Parliament with most of the corrupt politicos of the last few years.

I associate the accent of Dublin – particularly the northside – with incompetence, insouciance, and contempt. It is the accent of the bad tradesman, the surly busdriver, the unconcerned public official, the street lout, the gombeen taxi-driver: and so on. Country accents in the city are – for obvious reasons – more educated……………

you asdasd are an idiot

The main problem with ireland is suburbanism and more importantly anti-urban attitudes
The association of urban areas with crime grafitti etc, the notion that if you live in a house with a garden you
are better than apartment dwellers.
Our town centres and city centres are not being expanded properly, most new developements close to towns and
city centres must be high density and not just large towns even the smallest of towns have to expand their centres
with high density housing, and that means no real gardens and a minimum of parks
Any developments ideally shpuld be planned around public transport and the pedestrian(in a perfect world!)

@Frank Taylor wrote:

Give us some examples of this war (apart from the WRC).

I agree with not mis-assigning responsibility for local authority functions. But I think there is a question about assignment of resources which fall to central government. Those decisions do show an anti-Dublin bias which, on occasion, seemed to justify any act of vandalism.

One example is the many botched and costly moves of central government offices to rural locations, for example the Legal Aid Board to Cahirciveen. Also picture the synergies that might have been created if the Garda Training College had been located in a University city instead of Templemore.

Another is the whole area of airport provision. Dublin’s runway was deliberately kept too short to take fully laden cargo aircraft for fear of drawing business away from Shannon. On the other hand, the West coast is dotted with airports as if the expectation is that every town from Charlestown up is capable of being a hub. (Anticipating the ritual ‘tremendous success’ talk about Knock, its necessary to reflect on the extent to which its scheduled flights depend on emigrants visiting folks at home and vice versa. Knock’s ‘success’, such as it is, is ironically a product of the failed county jersey approach to regional development.)

In the area of health services, the actual objective of providing health care takes second place to keeping open underutilised facilities in every county.

To make it clear, I do support that general idea that many here are advocating of a regional policy based on cities. There is a need for the regional cities to clearly join in on this agenda, as so many times they allow the agenda to be seen in Dublin vs the rest terms. We here a lot of local action committees of the ‘save our crap local hospital’ type. We need to here the occasional Cork/Limerick/Galway City voice pointing out that this is just not the best approach for meaningful regional development. Dublin focussed rhetoric litters this type of discussion, and its largely misdirected.

you asdasd are an idiot

I couldn’t agree more. Most people would be embarrassed to disclose such bigotry. I simply cannot imaging anyone proudly announcing that they associated “country accents”, for example, with backwardness, xenophobia, priest-riden religosity, sexual repression, kiddy fiddling, drink-driving, political strokism, illegal rubbish dumps, etc. yet asdasd is seemingly proud to express similar prejudices against those with a Dublin accent. Asdasd should get out more and meet more different people instead of working themselves into a lather of seething distaste and hatred for anyone with a different accent or having suffered the accident of being born in a particular geographic location. What a nasty person.

By the way, I’m not from Dublin.

sounds like the above could also apply to cute panda

Surely Haughey (born in Castlebar amongst other places around the country) doesn’t qualify as a dub and maybe Redmond and Burke’s parents were from the country too! Pathetic argument by the way as cute – hoorism is endemic throughout politics no matter where you come from in Ireland.

All politics in Ireland is local (hence all the TD’s are interested in fighting for their own patch and to hell with the rest of the country and blaming the “Dublin Government” is the default setting for their own ineptitude – 2/3s of the cabinet aren’t elected by Dublin – have they lost their voice???) and the fact that a central fund controls the kitty for the entire country has led to the loss of control by all local authorities (who are only talking shops these days anyway) including Dublin City Council who outside of commercial rates has no fundraising capability – central government keeping all local authorities on a drip feed since 1977.

Simple economics has led to the spiraling growth of Dublin as primate city. Because all development in this country is developer led the entire country is a mess, local authorities are all trying to facilitate developers to increase their share of developers levies because they are all desperate for cash – hence the acceptance of any development – a problem for the entire country not just Dublin. If you want better development throughout the country you’ll have to pay domestic rates or SALT taxes for it – and what government based on a PR system is going to introduce that? They’d never get elected again ever.

This is a problem for all the people of Ireland

I simply cannot imaging anyone proudly announcing that they associated “country accents”, for example, with backwardness, xenophobia, priest-riden religosity, sexual repression, kiddy fiddling, drink-driving, political strokism, illegal rubbish dumps, etc. yet asdasd is seemingly proud to express similar prejudices against those with a Dublin accent

Yet, you just did while pretending not to. Hilarious.

The whole point of this thread is to blame ” The Culchies” for Dublin’s failure to work as a city. It is a bigoted thread which is why I am bigoted in return.

Dev may have talked the talk of ruralism and Gaelic revivalism, but he did not walk the walk. If he had done he may had relocated the capital elsewhere like Germany did with Bonn, Canada with Ottawa , Australia with Canberra, the US with Washington etc. ( preferably the Gaeltacht were he serious) – and – had he done so – Dublin would have gone into serial decline since it is basically an administrative centre will little entrepreneurial talent besides that which is imported via the IDA, or other nationally subsided imported capitalism like the IFSC.

SO much for the anti-Urban bias. To correct a point.

Absolutely. But perhaps the prevailing anti-urban cultural landscape allowed them to do this? They did not go down to Kerry and Mayo and knock farm buildings the way TDs from Donegal went up to Dublin and demolished part of Fitzwilliam Street.

The raging culchies knocked down Fitwillain street did they. According to this very site
“Fitzwilliam Street once the longest expanse of intact Georgian architecture anywhere in the world was destroyed in the 1970s when the ESB a supposedly responsible semi-state body wantonly demolished twelve of the houses.”

So it seems that the claim that it was Donegal TD’s ( who – lets reiterate – are running Ireland, not Dublin – I really have to come back to that point) seems ludicrous. I suspect a Dublin yobbo at the helm of the ESB at the time – and it seems that the site was once owned by the Dublin Corporation, the most Corrupt in the Western World.

Now, the only way that the EVIL CULCHIE TD’s could in fact be – in any way or form – responsible for the destruction of Dublin is due to the very centralization of the State and the concentration of it’s myriad functionality in Dublin, the very thing that makes you believe that TD’s are elected to run Dublin. Had we moved all the semi-States, civil-servants, national parks, libraries, and museums; and the supreme court, and high court; the IFSC and so on to Athlone, then Dublin would be free to bask in the faded glory of Fitzwilliam street, I am sure; although I am not so sure that Dubliners would really have ran their arcadia so well without the massive subsidy which ensues from being the national centre and the (subsidised) financial centre – nor, given that most of the destruction of Dublin was caused by the local government, not the National government, rezoning, brown bags et al that FitzWilliam Street would have survived a decade.

That said, had the national government moved there, the citizens of Athlone may be complaining about anti-Urban bias, a nation at was with it’s central city, and how Dublin TD’s are just – well, just – ruining the place.

Jesus wept.

Surely Haughey (born in Castlebar amongst other places around the country) doesn’t qualify as a dub and maybe Redmond and Burke’s parents were from the country too!

Oh, for the love of God. Maybe Redmond, and Burke had parents from Mars. . Seriously, what other “cosmopolitan”city would see people born in the city as from the country because their parents weren’t “true Dubs” ( the implication being that Dubliners cant be currupt unless tainted by Culchieism). Used against he childred of foreigners born in Dublin and it would quite clearly be what see for what it is, silly regionalism.

Being born, or being brought up in Dublin makes you a Dubliner, but I suspect these boys were true blue. Way back.

Pathetic argument by the way as cute – hoorism is endemic throughout politics no matter where you come from in Ireland.

If it was – which it isn’t, it is at it’s worst by far in Dublin (and this runs throughout the populace – tradesment are more corrupt than Cork, Waterford etc.) – it would not be relevant to by argument which is that Dublin’s curruption is Dublin’s fault,and particularly the fault of the Dublin bred corporation.

Not evil culchies.

A city cannot heal until it recognises it’s own faults, and that it’s fault may not always be the fault of the outsider. Dubliners may have to recognise some of the destruction of Dublin was their fault; and act remedially – not to do so would create more destruction, and with it – no doubt – more Culchie bashing.

If it was – which it isn’t, it is at it’s worst by far in Dublin (and this runs throughout the populace – tradesment are more corrupt than Cork, Waterford etc.) – it would not be relevant to by argument which is that Dublin’s curruption is Dublin’s fault,and particularly the fault of the Dublin bred corporation.
.

asdasd – you are a cretin and your views of all Dubliners as endemically corrupt are pathetic and bigoted. Your view that all corruption stems from Dublin is as parochial and backward as you can get – I doubt Joe Duffy would let you on liveline with your frankly bizarre opinions and worldview.

My point about the named corrupt politicos is that one of them was definitely not from Dublin and maybe the other two were 1st generation Dubs – who cares? We all know that they helped ruin Dublin and it doesn’t really matter where they came from. THEY DIDNT ONE DAY ARRIVE IN DUBLIN AND GET CORRUPTED BY THE EVIL CITY (yes I have to shout it out to you) but rather were on the make from the off like many politicians throughout the country.

I reccomend that you read local papers and the reports from ABP about dodgy land rezonings and suspicious planning permissions throughout Ireland and you may well discover that corruption is rife throughout Ireland. And tradesmen are dodgy throughout the world – not just in Dublin.

Can we have enough of your hysterical ranting now?

I doubt very much if asdasd has done any reading at all about the recent history, politics, society, architecture, etc …. of Dublin City. His rants are just so typical of someone who is so anti-Dublin. A typical ABD – Anyone But Dublin on All-Ireland day too…… and ignorance is bliss!

Maybe CutePanda’s thread could be renamed a nation at war with its cities, which would avoid this pro/anti Dulin debate, so that we can get back to the rural/urban divide that is a national concern?

@asdasd wrote:

Yet, you just did while pretending not to. Hilarious.

No I did not. I would never judge someone in the way you proclaim to do on the basis of county accent.

Recommended reading for asdasd…………….https://archiseek.com/content/showthread.php?p=25646

(Anyone watch David McWilliams The Popes Children documentary series last night on RTE 1 dealing with the Celtic Tiger and how Irish society has drastically changed within the last few years. Good insight for the young kids today of how poor we were once both mentally and materially as a nation.)

@mickeydocs wrote:

Maybe CutePanda’s thread could be renamed a nation at war with its cities, which would avoid this pro/anti Dulin debate, so that we can get back to the rural/urban divide that is a national concern?

Good point, as the rural culchie/jackeen rival thing is only half getting the story. It’s really about so much more than this, but as Dublin was the only major city in Ireland for decades I guess it was the only target for the rural elite to plunder and dismantle, even though Cork and Limerick cities suffered terribly by default.

I agree with the poster who stated it is time for Cork city (and other urban centers) to take a stand and tell the rural elite/TDs and their endless, bizzare collection of myopic quangos and crusading catholic clergy to go get stuffed.

It is time for the City Slicker/Townie to get the spotlight in the new Ireland.

THREAD TITLE CHANGED TO: “A Nation at War with its Urban Centres”

Something I feel needs to be stressed in this whole debate is that people who live in rural areas now don’t live rural lives. Almost nothing they do is rural. They are living urban lives in rural areas; they are urbanising the countryside.

This is true in the case of the avalanche of one-off houses built in rural areas every year.

This says everything:

@Cute Panda wrote:

If the petrol stopped arriving at North Wall tomorrow, what’s “Plan B” for the one-offers in rural Ireland? Answer, there is none. They are completely screwed.

For the purposes of the rural / urban ‘divide’, I am not making any distinction between urban and suburban, as the one-off house builders reject both, but, yes, ‘suburbanisating of the countryside’ would be the more usually-heard term – the one which the IRDA et al go apeshit when they hear!

@Cute Panda wrote:

If the petrol stopped arriving at North Wall tomorrow, what’s “Plan B” for the one-offers in rural Ireland? Answer, there is none. They are completely screwed.:

To be honest I have always found this ‘oil’ arguement disingenuous. Lets face it: if the oil runs out we’re all screwed. Regardless of the efficiencies of public transport over the private car, alternative energy sources are going to have to be found and exploited. Just as one-offers or unfortunate suburbanites depend on oil for transport, so too does Dublin Bus, so too does Bus

Well here’s a breakdown of a typical carbon footprint and, as you say Graham, there is more to it than private car transport. Interesting that the carbon required to manufacture cars is two thirds of the carbon used in running a car (annualised). Anyhow, its clear that reducing carbon usage requires action on many fronts and a lot of them point towards more local sourcing of goods.

@GrahamH wrote:

To be honest I have always found this ‘oil’ arguement disingenuous. Lets face it: if the oil runs out we’re all screwed. Regardless of the efficiencies of public transport over the private car, alternative energy sources are going to have to be found and exploited.

Nuclear Energy can be implemented very quickly. Once you have electricity for homes, busineses and transport such as electric metros, trams and trains (small now, but growing), we only need to import oil mostly for road traffic and home heating oil. That’s a huge chunk of the Irish oil burden dealth with simply by following the enlightened and forward-looking example of the Green countries and going nuclear rather than depending on Dubya’s family business.

Hybrid cars and buses are already here and coming down in price. HGVs are coming next. Getting off oil is not a difficult as we are led to beleive. Personally, I support the alternative energy idea as “a nice idea”, but if we need serious power in this country then it’s nuclear, realistically speaking.

A high speed arterial rail line at some point in the future would do wonders for this country in terms of by-passing the mistakes of bad spatial planning. We are a while off that yet, but I can see it happening in the next 20 years. Nuclear power would come in handy for that too.

There is merit to this suggestion. Given Dublin’s infrastructural deficit and the mass of people living there, it is obvious that the optimal location for a nuclear power plant would be somewhere in the Docklands region. Indeed, given the need for a high-rise landmark building in the city centre when Liberty Hall is finally pulled down, the Liberty Hall site might not be a bad place to locate such a reactor. Of course the bonus of all of this is that if there is an accident, the country’s population will automatically be halved, which would of course instantly reduce our national carbon footprint and, due to the migration of citizens to the countryside, help rebalance the nation’s demographics and revitalise the regional urban centres. In other words, it would be a form of environmentally sensitive decentralization. Cute Panda, you may inadvertently have proposed a suggestion which would end all of the nation’s woes and which would give Adi Roche a new project to work on closer to home.

I bet that Ireland will eventually become nuclear down the line………..don’t mind the gibberish that the Greens and other gombeen TD’s utter. Europe is copiously dotted with nuclear power stations as well as Britain which has more than only Sellafield.

And they should build the power plant in Dublin, like everything else…..given the overblown malarky over the Corrib gas line. There are more gardai down their to steward the handful of protesting people than there are in Dublin.

Surely those people are just attempting to ensure that the countryside remains unspoilt and virginal for weekenders from the ‘big smoke’. Given the quality of engineering works in Dublin (the uncompleted M50, the dodgy rails of the LUAS, the leaks in the tunnel, and so on), I think it would be slightly alarming to many if a half-finished leaking concrete shell made of sub-standard materials was thrown up to house a nuclear reactor anywhere in this country, but if that is what Dublin wants, I am sure it thoroughly deserves it.

@Finite wrote:

Surely those people are just attempting to ensure that the countryside remains unspoilt and virginal for weekenders from the ‘big smoke’. Given the quality of engineering works in Dublin (the uncompleted M50, the dodgy rails of the LUAS, the leaks in the tunnel, and so on), I think it would be slightly alarming to many if a half-finished leaking concrete shell made of sub-standard materials was thrown up to house a nuclear reactor anywhere in this country, but if that is what Dublin wants, I am sure it thoroughly deserves it.

Yep …..and we’ll sell ye the heat for the winters at a top price., including VAT.

How exactly is Dublin the root of all evil in planning matters, decisions and construction in this Country? From what I can tell, it is the county councils in many counties OUTSIDE the the capital county which have been the consistent worst offenders when it comes to waste, bad planning, traffic problems and inadequate responses to the growth of ou country both economically and demographically over the past 10 to 15 years.

To support my point I give you the county councils of Meath, Kildare, Offaly and Wicklow who have all neglected to adequately meet the growth of our country, as evidenced by their disregard for creating school places, public transport, cycle lanes, communinty centres, football pitches, religious centres and other accoutrements of society and community for the blankets of bungalows and hundreds of housing estates which they have allowed blossom on former agricultural land.

Other examples of inept management, poor planning and almost total blindness to foresight is writ large in our regional capitals which make the problems and limitations in the capital seem desirable in comparison. For example, while Dublin has Bublin Bus, DART, Luas, Iarnr

I saw this, and thought of this thread.

A Cork County Councillor has described plans for the extension of Cork city’s boundary as ‘being akin to Napoleon’s move on Russia’.

There have been similar issues in Limerick and Waterford, where the city boundaries are out of line with current realities, never mind future planning.

I don’t know if the specifics of the new boundary proposal hold up to scrutiny in every detail. But someone depicting this kind of thing as an invasion is pretty much saying ‘I vigorously support the idea that all development should be centred on Dublin’.

Quetion for Cathal Dunne: Are you THE Cathal Dunne that sang for Ireland in the Eurovision back in the 80’s?

@schuhart wrote:

I saw this, and thought of this thread. There have been similar issues in Limerick and Waterford, where the city boundaries are out of line with current realities, never mind future planning.

It’s like Killinascully or Hall’s Pictorial Weekly or something isn’t it. The scary thing is that the councillors and politicans like him really beleive what they are saying.

@schuhart wrote:

I don’t know if the specifics of the new boundary proposal hold up to scrutiny in every detail. But someone depicting this kind of thing as an invasion is pretty much saying ‘I vigorously support the idea that all development should be centred on Dublin’.

Another 200,000 one-offs in the countryside more like.

@vkid wrote:

Isnt it wonderful what dublin has given us all! We culchies should be so much more grateful than we are!:rolleyes: 😀

In fairness, the poster was moved to make this remark in response to the ‘Dubs are all gurriers’ type rhetoric of an earlier post. I think the point we’re all trying to get at is the way these superficial Dublin/culchie stereotypes distract from meaningful issues. In that context, your response looks a little silly.

I don’t think gratitude is relevant to this discussion. What is relevant is how Ireland’s economy depends heavily on Dublin as a location, and how there is no coherent policy response to that reality.

@schuhart wrote:

I saw this, and thought of this thread. There have been similar issues in Limerick and Waterford, where the city boundaries are out of line with current realities, never mind future planning.

I don’t know if the specifics of the new boundary proposal hold up to scrutiny in every detail. But someone depicting this kind of thing as an invasion is pretty much saying ‘I vigorously support the idea that all development should be centred on Dublin’.

Isn’t the real issue purely and simply financial?
Cork County Council administers an enormous land area and requires a large population base so as to received adequate funding.
The problem is that the majority of that population live in the area surrounding Cork City. Furthermore the majority of this population would consider itself Urban and have an emotional and habitual affinity with Cork

In fairness, indeed. This discussion has not been about architecture or about planning – it has been a simplistic attempt to play one concept of what Ireland is off against another concept of what Ireland is. It is a debate that is as old as the hills and has certainly been trotted out in various forms since the very concept of the Pale was first derived (the Pale itself being based upon the notion of a cultural, linguistic and political division between Dublin and the rest of the land). Indeed, it was the first colonial attempt to partition the country and from what I can see it has, in the long term, been as successful as the later partitioning of the north. Wjat is being played out here in Archiseek is a primitive revision of some of the more sophisticated arguments presented by esteemed colonialists such as Sir Edmund Spenser who did little more than attempt to demonize the rural Irish as barbaric heathens when compared to the civilized British-influence pervading the east coast. In short, its time to move away from such debates that truly do not add much to the discussion or architecture or planning, but just provoke old colonial debates, prejudices and stereotypes. Instead of casting all of that crap out again, some of the people who have contributed to this debate would be better taking their noses out of the local FF and FG gazettes and out of the Irish Times and get their noses into books on understanding stereotypes and on understanding and appreciating the plurality of discourses within society, Maybe then they could move on to an enlightened discussion of architecture, rather than a ridiculous and simplistic vision of rural Ireland vs Dublin (for Christ sake – its a tiny island with four million people who are all basically related to each other through centuries or inter-marriage – just get real).

just to let ye know. galway county and city councils are at loggerheads ( or at least were a few months ago ) regarding the expansion of galway city’s boundary. the same i presume as the what one poster said about cork. however, the expansion of two storey heaven out to oranmore now is just crazy. the county won’t let the centre of oranmore go over 2/3 storeys and so it follows that the ever encroaching expansion of our cities and towns into the landscape contributes to it’s “ugliness” as much as the one off’s… maybe it’s time that the system is shook up and we stop geography graduates decide the future of our towns. now i know that some went to school for a year to study planning but is that enough? should all planners be architects first? that after you do your architectural training you do a supplement degree in planning or even have it part of th architectural course?

this suburban rampage from the cities and towns is not just a dublin ( meath/kildare/wicklow/louth) problem but a countrywide problem. i agree witht eh last poster..it’s time to grow up and stop arguing about irevelant fictional problems between the urban and rural dwellers but try and make sense of the real problem.

Well at least Napeolian was a fan of excellent urban planning!
See: Paris

In reality is Galway not the only city to get a recent boundary extension which gave it the fastest growing city in Europe tag. Cork, Limerick and Waterford havent had any in years and in terms of size Limericks city boundary is smaller than any of the others. No sympathy for Galway in this case!

@FIN wrote:

just to let ye know. galway county and city councils are at loggerheads ( or at least were a few months ago ) regarding the expansion of galway city’s boundary. the same i presume as the what one poster said about cork. however, the expansion of two storey heaven out to oranmore now is just crazy. the county won’t let the centre of oranmore go over 2/3 storeys and so it follows that the ever encroaching expansion of our cities and towns into the landscape contributes to it’s “ugliness” as much as the one off’s… maybe it’s time that the system is shook up and we stop geography graduates decide the future of our towns. now i know that some went to school for a year to study planning but is that enough? should all planners be architects first? that after you do your architectural training you do a supplement degree in planning or even have it part of th architectural course?

this suburban rampage from the cities and towns is not just a dublin ( meath/kildare/wicklow/louth) problem but a countrywide problem. i agree witht eh last poster..it’s time to grow up and stop arguing about irevelant fictional problems between the urban and rural dwellers but try and make sense of the real problem.

it’s nothing to do with sympathy… it’s not needed as the east and north of the city are still under-developed. there wanted extension is out the east of the city where it is most concentrated along the dublin road. if it is needed in other cities then why isn’t it done? and if it is done will there be a proper plan involving hub centres with amenities and various facilities rather than 20,000 semi d’s and 1 shop and no pub, playing areas and other essential in creating a social and personal communities instead of souless estate after estate like the ones shown in graham’s thread. do we really want our society and future to go down that route or can we stand up and be counted. not enough is said on this subject. a lot of bluster is said on one off and that we should all live in estates but if this is what is on offer is it really viable? would you want to move into an area lke that and raise your family, or like so many, choose the alternative for around about similiar prices? there is a physe that we as a society have to get or mind around..that we as a people like to have a it of space. if our estatres were better designed with more usable open space would we have as many one off’s? will we ever favour apartment living? will our cities be populated by our every incresing ‘new irish’ ? there is a steady market as they are used to apartment living.

thats my point. Galway really doesn;t need an extyension where as other provincial cities do imo. Why aren;t they getting them? Politics.
And imo Galway is being ruined by its recent expansion. There have some truly awful buildings constructed around the city in recent years. Used to love the place but in recent years the unique qualities that Galway had are being slowly lost. thats just an opinion though!

One thing I notice about many of the threads is that negative criticism abounds aplenty, but constructive alternatives are rarely proposed. Lets take the Galwy-Oranmore as a concrete example as it is a neat microcosm of a broader situation in the Greater Dublin, Cork and Limerick areas. What can be done to stop the current situation? What alternatives would people propose to the development of the western suburbs of Galway. More positive constructivism would be welcome in the approach to such problems. Sadly realistic suggestions are usually slow in coming and few in number.

it is that exactly. it is mirrored throughout the country no matter what city. the reason is that the planners will not consider anything other than their set ideas of what fits in. no matter what is suggested. there is no simple answer like the one you want. no magic formula. it need a concentrated effort and re-education on the scale of the re-think on the environment to address this scandal.

vkid – i agree that there has been an awful lot of shite gone up in the last few years. hopefully this will be addressed. there are some nice schemes coming on line soon i hope.
and politics! yes and pure laziness on behalf of developers, architects ( yes there is an awful lot of shite/lazy architects and techs , engineers etc who get to design these things ) and people in general. not to make a political statement or anything but if there is corruption then vote them out…. i also think a directly elected mayor is a good idea…

A similar thing has happened in Drogheda – expansion of the town has led to Drogheda Co Meath now holding vast tranches of houses which get their services from Louth – Louth Co Co have (quite reasonably) proposed expanding the county boundaries to take in these new estates and Meath Co Co have responded with Ian Paisley syle “Not an inch of Meath Soil etc etc ad infinitum” yet continue to rezone their area around South Drogheda in order to take the development levies. A real case of beggar thy neighbour. And this seems to be the case in all the above cases of city/county clashes all councils desperate for cash fighting each other in a vicious circle of .

Unfortunately the laissez faire approach from central government means no one will knock heads together (no realisation that they are arbitary boundaries not physical borders and we’re all the same country the last time I checked) and so we have ended up in the mess we are in.

The Cork City boundary extension looks a bit extreme, all it seems to be doing is annexing countryside with a few small villages dotted around!.. Has this any chance of going ahead? or are the City Council simply testing the water by demanding such a large extension in the hope that they will at least get something of an extension?..

http://www.corkcity.ie/news/pdf/Borough_Boundary_Map_081106.pdf

To be honest the Limerick City boundary is without doubt the biggest shambles of all! At least with Cork and Galway the vast majority of the city is actually within the city boundary, this is definately not the case in Limerick where at this stage less than half of the city is within the boundary, areas such as raheen,dooradoyle, castletroy/monaleen which are clearly natural suburbs of the city are all run by Limerick County Council. The worst thing is that the level of co-operation between the authorities is basically ZERO! An example of this occured this year when the county council included a bus lane in their plans for the improvement of st nessans road in Dooradoyle, however it only runs for around a mile, stopping dead in its tracks at the city boundary!

Over the last few years Limerick co co has also given the go-ahead for a number of large retail/commercial developments on the outskirts of the city, a retail masterplan for the Limerick city area was drawn up a couple of years by the 3 LA’s surrounding the city, however its clear Limerick County Council dont have much interest in sticking to it!

Limerick co co have always been blinded by rates and always seem to let this get in the way of proper planning. They dont care about the problems that their incompetence causes as long as the money continues to roll in! Theres no doubt that a boundary extension is urgently needed but the government has been fudging the issue for years now and its obvious that Dick Roche hasnt got the balls to make a decision! Willie o Dea dosent want to upset anyone either, pretty shameful stuff really!:mad:

Over the last few years Limerick co co has also given the go-ahead for a number of large retail/commercial developments on the outskirts of the city, a retail masterplan for the Limerick city area was drawn up a couple of years by the 3 LA’s surrounding the city, however its clear Limerick County Council dont have much interest in sticking to it!

I think the above can explained along the lines of planners draft plans, politicians rezone and county managers instruct the planners to ignore the plans when told to by the politicians.