A city constrained by a Frank McDonald credo would be ‘dismal and prissy’ –

I thought this a fine article myself but don’t know if it’s fair or not, in truth. He did also praise some projects

Trouble is / good thing is that McDonald’s article has now gone all around the globe…….maybe you could include some details of projects which would counter his claim……. you know the, good stuff if there is any?

@Owen O´ Callaghan wrote:

Perhaps Mr McDonald’s real difficulty is that Cork is in the midst of one of the most exciting development phases in its history.

Oooh who ever said anything about Cork people, chips, and shoulders?

Im sure in speaking about a thriving city, Mr O C must be refering to the wonderful Mallow road that was built above/ on top of the residential and urban townscape beneath; theres one I certainly overlooked in my contributions to the best roads/ worst roads thread. ( I cannot think of a worse scheme built in Ireland in recent years – inc Sligo) :rolleyes:

does seem like a weird thing to do………ask people to ignore McDonald and demand a right of reply where every paragraph mentions his name.

@d_d_dallas wrote:

Speaking of chips and shoulders… I think FMcD would also qualify. I am impressed by the article. It’s so easy to think of developers as faceless money-hungry types devoid of architectural awareness. It’s good to see a developer responding to his detractors in a robust fashion. It gives hope for future OCP projects in the Cork region (I suppose noone wishes to sh1t in their own back garden!).

I have to say I read the reply with a smile. The article is very short-sighted and a little pompous – but then again, I and other residents of the Cork area have a knowledge of the structures in question. Opinion is one thing, but as Mr. O’Callaghan notes ‘ pontificating ‘ is another.

@hutton wrote:

Oooh who ever said anything about Cork people, chips, and shoulders?

I think that is indeed the stereotypical depiction of Corkonians, and no doubt there is some truth in it – though I feel it has to do with a lot of ‘playing up’ to the expectations as well. That said, the same can be said for Dublin – I think it is particularly evident to anyone travelling to the Capital, not a resident. The difference is the historic or cultural association of such mentality is not as well promoted regarding Dubliners. But I suppose that’s straying from the point at hand and is a discussion for another day and thread..

…I am glad to see that someone, who has received brunt criticism has defended their position. Its easy, as this website well knows, for the media to spread whatever opinion they wish and in some cases without recompense. The reply I think breathes new dimensions into the perception of developers in Ireland – who are so usually generalised into a misconception (though that’s not to say it isn’t applicable to some). 🙂

I think that this reply basically sums up all that’s bad with developers in this country – breathtaking arrogance, no willingness to accept past mistakes (the merchant’s quay shopping centre is truly indefensable no matter what the ecomomic climate was at the time), and a general sense that he believes that all development is good development… For god’s sake the Lavitts Quay development is one of the most disgusting things I have ever seen and I’d challenge anyone to defend it. In many ways its worse than Merchant’s Quay because so much money has been thrown at it that the end result could have easily been something with a bit of grace… Exactly the same is true of Mahon Point – another completely soulless tarmac desert with some tin boxes thrown around and a bit of copper to make it “interesting”, It’s Blanchardstown/Liffey Valley/Tallaght all over again and it doesnt work! Why do you think all of the above are looking at major redevelopment plans already involving streets and places and mixed uses.
I’m not saying that I totally agree with McDonald’s article – there are lots of smaller scale developments of high quality going on and a great energy in the city at the moment. Ballincollig Town Centre is a very interesting looking scheme and I’m looking forward to seeing it in the flesh. But I’d rather have Frank McDonald, someone who knows something about architectural quality and good urban spaces, lecture me than some money grabbing developer…

@BTH wrote:

I think that this reply basically sums up all that’s bad with developers in this country – breathtaking arrogance, no willingness to accept past mistakes (the merchant’s quay shopping centre is truly indefensable no matter what the ecomomic climate was at the time), and a general sense that he believes that all development is good development… For god’s sake the Lavitts Quay development is one of the most disgusting things I have ever seen and I’d challenge anyone to defend it. In many ways its worse than Merchant’s Quay because so much money has been thrown at it that the end result could have easily been something with a bit of grace… Exactly the same is true of Mahon Point – another completely soulless tarmac desert with some tin boxes thrown around and a bit of copper to make it “interesting”, It’s Blanchardstown/Liffey Valley/Tallaght all over again and it doesnt work! Why do you think all of the above are looking at major redevelopment plans already involving streets and places and mixed uses.
I’m not saying that I totally agree with McDonald’s article – there are lots of smaller scale developments of high quality going on and a great energy in the city at the moment. Ballincollig Town Centre is a very interesting looking scheme and I’m looking forward to seeing it in the flesh. But I’d rather have Frank McDonald, someone who knows something about architectural quality and good urban spaces, lecture me than some money grabbing developer…

The one thing I’ve come to learn over the years about architecture is (to borrow a good friend’s phrase) “it’s a matter of opinion, and my opinion matters”. Architecture, for me, has always been about creating an environment which betters the nature of an area for the people – it is an increasingly important facet of our society and one which I believe deserves recognition. My belief is that boundaries need to be consistently challenged – like any foray, mistakes are made. It is part of the learning process and as with anything, design cannot progress without lessons – the trick is to minimise these mistakes. We are a lucky society – the public have become increasingly aware of the benefits and importance of architecture – because in today’s environment, we are in a position to do so. Frankly, I’m delighted we are – and this type of debate is part of that process in the progression of our ideas about architecture, urban design and development as a whole.

The recent winner of the Kyrls Quay CCC/RIAI Architectural Ideas Competition was awarded to Conroy Architecture – a design, I personally find utterly boring. Is that an attack on Conroy Architecture’s skill, imagination or workmanship? Not in the least, it is an opinion, a panel of architecurally apt individuals, as well as individuals with extensive planning and urban design knowledge deemed the project worthy of the award. Doesn’t mean I like it though. Likewise, similar panels found reason to award the likes of 21 Lavitts Quay, CityQuarter, Mahon Point, Victoria Mills…and so on. Does it mean you have to like it? Nope. Frank McDonald’s opinion is valid, it’s the otherside of the coin, but there is a line that must be thread – notably in his argument, Mr. McDonald went for expressing his opinion to borderline attack. Where people may not see this is perhaps because they are unfamiliar with the context. I happen to like 21 Lavitts Quay for example, I think Patrick Cashman & Associates provided an interesting variance in shape, height and materials shielding what is generally accepted as something of an eyesore – give me 21 Lavitts Quay any day of the week. In fact, I hope similar imagination and scale is applied to the future OCP effort at 16 Lavitts Quay – obviously with respect to the PS. It will bring continuity and variance to the quayside – one which can comfortably accommodate such scale, and prior to that one which was a mismatch of structural heights, qualities (dereliction) and gaping spaces which brought an air of inconsistency and ill care to the quayside. As for MQ, would I like to see the facades enhanced? Yes – but I still think MQ was a helluva positive development for Cork and I don’t think the disdain displayed by some toward it is worthy in the context. It’s easy for us to do so from our comfortable position now. As far as that goes, let me just say Eden Quay, Dublin – and that’s a product of our modern day, or perhaps the former Jurys in Waterford…. but this is not a comparitive, what is interesting to me is why in an article suppose to be related to the progress of architecture in Cork of recent times (in and around Cork2005) did Mr. McDonald feel the need to cite various developments as far back as 1989 to compound his argument? Mr. McDonald also failed to note quality and prominent architectural additions such as Camden Court, Coppinger Court or the redevelopment of the Kino?

Referring to Mr. O’Callaghan’s reply as ‘arrogant’ I think is somewhat arrogant in itself – I’m not critiquing anyone’s personal character here – but I’m simply saying that his reply, as far as I’m concerned is a clear indication of how importantly held his work is to him. It’s easy for cynics to cite ‘money grabbing’ etc etc – it’s an easy stereotype – the stereotype of politicians is corrupt, architects as arrogant, models as bimbos, Americans as obnoxious, the Irish as alcoholic red-heads dressed in green…but of course these are only stereotypes and you know as well as I do that these perceptions fall short greatly. Some of the nicest most decent people I know are architects, politicians and well, as for models – unfortunately I don’t know enough! :p The point I’m trying to make is that it’s an unfair generalisation and I am impressed that Mr. O’Callaghan felt so strongly that he did reply, it is clear that he feels passionately about his work and of his home. I think that’s a very good positive. Well done.

Posted by Lexington:
“Referring to Mr. O’Callaghan’s reply as ‘arrogant’ I think is somewhat arrogant in itself – I’m not critiquing anyone’s personal character here – but I’m simply saying that his reply, as far as I’m concerned is a clear indication of how importantly held his work is to him. It’s easy for cynics to cite ‘money grabbing’ etc etc – it’s an easy stereotype…”

It’s a clear indication that Mr O’Callahan thought that by having a critical report about his developments circulating in the media that his reputation would be harmed, that potential tenants may be put off and that potentially there may be more resistance to his future plans for flooding Cork with more architectural dross. Please don’t try and tell me that this guy or any other successful developer of this magnitude actually cares about the ARCHITECTURE (for that is what this forum and Frank McDonald’s article is about) of what he builds. What they care about is square footage, getting through planning and getting the thing built as cheaply as possible. And yes this may be a stereotype, but it’s one I, in practice, have found to be absolutely true – and nothing in O’Callaghan’s projects or in his attitude as displayed in his reply to McDonald’s article point to him being any different.
Am I arrogant? Possibly when it comes to architecture. I have very strong views borne from a passionate interest in the subject. Maybe it’s my frustration in seeing some of the crap thet is being inflicted upon our cities and towns that makes me so judgemental and negative in some of my posts. Ill stand by my views – Lavitts Quay is a disaster and set’s a frightening precedent for the rest of the development of the quays. I don’t care what it covers up or what was there before. What I see before me right now is a bloated, formless mass of masonry and glass – no attention to proportion, scale or materiality, just a jumble of “wallpaper” facades topped by overscaled roof forms which fail miserably to mask additional floorspace. Can someone please post a picture here so that people can make up their own minds as my words cannot describe how awful it really is.

As for the rest of Lexington’s last post – It’s a great reply and it spells out his position and views superbly. I don’t agree with a lot of what he’s saying but then that’s what this place is all about – debate and conflicting opinions and trying to understand that we are all coming from differing angles and viewpoints. It’s not about right or wrong, good and bad – even if some of my more inflammatory posts can sometimes go a little down that line!

I still think for example that any justification of Merchant’s Quay shopping centre can’t mask the simple fact that it is, and always has been, a seriously ugly building. Just because it was built when the economy was in the doldrums doesn’t excuse it from criticism now. And it’d take a lot more than a new facade treatment to improve a fundamentally flawed layout – how will this stretch of Cork’s Quayside ever be brought to life with nothing but loading bays and fire exits to activate the street edge?

The reality is, and this is why Frank McDonald went so far back as to criticsze something built in 1989, that Merchant’s Quay makes probably the biggest negative impact on the city visually – moreso as it, along with the Bus Station, marks most people’s first point of arrival at the city centre when coming from any part of the country. It’s a disgrace to Cork and something needs to be done with it urgently.

Anyway, ranting again… But opinions matter!

Interesting article from a couple of viewpoints IMHO.
First, I doubt if anyone else other than o’callaghan would have the clout to get an article published in the IT property supplement.Some threats made to pull advertising/friends in high places type carry-on? (AFAIK a significant amount of the IT’s revenue is derived from the prop. supplement)

Secondly with regards to Dublin and any kind of objective criticism of built environment developments FMcD is very much a busted flush.His feet are too cosy under the table with the movers and shakers in the big smoke.When’s the last time he told it like it is on some of the less than brilliant projects under construction in the capital? Seems to me Cork is where he can vent his spleen cuz he is not beholden to any sectoral intersests down there.

I believe it’s a fly tower .
Agreed, it should not have been used to set the new datum.