32-floor building planned for Dublin

any pics?

There are three points on this:

Firstly to suggest that Heuston Station is close to a public transport node is correct.
To suggest that the station is suitable for large numbers of additional commuters is a joke. How many commuters board trains at the Cherry Orchard station daily to work in the City Centre?

Credit to Irish Rail they did a good renovation job on Heuston station.

But the failure to develop the interconnector from Heuston to Connolly and Dublin 2 via Tara St and Pearse Stn is a disgrace.

So you have a floor of stranded commuters for every County in the Island of Ireland.

Second point is that it would destroy the Heritage value of two important buildings namely Dr Steven’s Hospital and The Royal Hospital in Kilmainham. Lads keep the modern art forms within the Museum.

Thirdly it by utilising scarce construction resources further slows development in the Docklands.

The one area in Central Dublin that possibly has the capacity to absorb tall buildings.

And the minister behind it, yes little tommy parlon,

So it will be an actual skyscraper .ie over 120m high fantastic. There are so many 60m plus buildings going up, tara street, u2 tower, pearse street, spencer dock, the new 19 story tower for east wall road cant be much higher. A 32 story building, now that is high rise, and even if they lob off a a floor or two its still going to be damn high.

Who cares if it slows development in the docklands? It shows you what a joke the development in the docklands is, beside Heuston Station a 32 storey building is proposed and the best the DDDA can come up with is 60m!!!!!!!!

oh! my god not again. please please go to any other city in the world and see new developments that are close to old buildings …and i mean that please go. how could it possibly destroy the heritage value and what exactly is the heritage value…. would u like to see no development around these things…
is it not also close to the roads out of dublin? and surely it’s not the developemnts or developers fault that irish rail is so shite. it’s had the facilities there for expansion.
and your third point…absolute nonsense. if we need more import them. lots of romanian and other such nations builders crying out for work just like we were when we had to go across the water and to america. and espically if they are cheaper than the cartel here.

Peter Coyne and the DDDA are stunted in their creative development (pardon the pun)

Diaspora what are you talking about? The interconnector is to be developed. It has to be.

The best the Docklands come up with is a:

The U2 Tower,

The Milleneum Tower,

200 Acres of land for redevelopment,

4 dart Stations

Direct proximity to the City Centre

Direct access to a river at a mature stage.

Comprehensive integrated area planning.

Stira in your rush to be modern, you forget all the basic principles of urban planning

Where are they going to put the other buildings to finish the skyline in remote D8

Sore thumb or a fatter version of the spike it is your call

No completely disagree. Did the DDDA produce the land for the redevelopment or was it already there? 4 DARTstations, that was CIE. Direct proximity to the city centre and direct access to a river at amature stage? How can the DDDA claim any credit for this? Its the docklands for god sake! And the U2 tower and millenium tower are 60m high! In the docklands the one place suitable for high buildings in the city!

what? what on earth has this to do with the docklands and urban design. the docklands is as i’m sure u know better than me is quite a large area requiring a good urban map whereas this is one building. what happen’s after is pure speculation. where it fits in is that maybe that it’s the start of a urban map. everything has to have a start. do u want to keep dublin down so that it may spread furhter into kildare/meath/louth/wicklow and any other surronding counties?

Exactly, its a pity we cant take a nice chunk of manhattan and drop it on the docklands and show the residents and objectors what High Rise really is! I can guarantee you most of the people who object have never actuallt been out of this country, they are completely ignorant.

HERE HERE

They don’t claim the credit for planning around the existing assets of their area. But they would be stupid not to channel development into areas that are capable of absorbing it.

Except for the fact that they decontaminated the 50+ acre former bord gais site

The U2 tower at 22 stories will be well in excess of 60m.

If this building was on that former Dunloe Ewart Site it would merit serious consideration.

But it is not, it is just on a site that does not possess the special site attributes to justify it’s proposed height.

In fact it really must be the silly season, Vega City, 625 new Apartments for liffey valley,

Decentralisation to Portlaosise.

Silly season

It was afterall conceived by Tom Parlon

The u2 tower is only habitable to a height of 60m, it is not allowed to be any higher than this. And where did you get 22 stories from i counted approx. 12, from the plans. Luas is also running beside Heuston Station.

“But it is not, it is just on a site that does not possess the special site attributes to justify it’s proposed height. “
WHAT?

It’s not the height I would have in doubt its the quality of the architecture. I bet it’s a big Hello from David Keogh to Tony Reddy up on the Nestle site opposite the Gaol.

is there any pics at all. i haven’t seen the thing yet.

One of Irelands leading property consultants once described the situation of trying to board the DART at Sydney Parade station.

It wasn’t for the faint hearted he said there is less pushing at the bottom of a ruck he elaborated.

The Luas has an even lower capacity than the DART by the time it has covered 10+ stations it will already be like the bottom of a ruck

Agree that buildings should be taller, that densities should be higher.

But to get it right do it in the right places so that those that as you said have never left Ireland have no reason to object.

apart from it will destroy the heritage value

Ok, the Luas will be crowded by the time it reaches Heuston station at peak times, but the interconnector will have a high capacity for bringing passengers into the the city centre and doklands. And the one thing is, its going ot have to be built there is no getting out of it for CIE or the Gov.

My point is that yes higher densities, yes taller buildings but in areas where you can cluster them.

Follow the buildings with a metro system or lead with the metro.

There is very little built heritage in the Docklands.

This proposal would destroy the heritage value of two important buildings.

Building a 100m tall building in the Docklands would do a lot less damage to the exisitng skyline.

A little less talk a lot more action

I have more confidence in seeing Elvis than the rail interconnecter

Reports, studies, green papers, white papers,
tenders, additional submissions, re-examinations of the tendering process, further clarification of the specification.

Ah why not lets have another competition.

Just an idea, everyone knows that Luas is going to be pa currecked to capacity from day one. Frequency at peak times is 5 minutes. Why not order in double the amount of trams currently, increase frequency to 2.5 mins and then when the interconnector is in place, metro etc, use the trams on another line.

please explain heritage value. and as i said everything has to start somewhere. it depends on the architecture. me thinks u don’t like tall buildings…keep ireland in the 18th century!!!!

The interconnector was never meant to be in place yesterday, today or tommorow. Its going to be and was always meant to be about another 8 years before it is built.

so u are saying no just because! … smarts of paisley to be honest.

Tom Parlance: “I got an extra 16 stories put on this building for the civil servants staying in Dublin”

Charlie McCreedy: “Sure Tomo didn’t even know about the first 16 stories”

Heh heh

If its going tall, GO TALL!

I’ve no idea what impact this building will have on the Royal Hospital until pics etc are produced – so I’m not commenting till then on that issue.
But it must truly be a ‘landmark building’ in terms of height and design.
And there mustn’t be any clustering of 7 storey ‘ancillary development’ around it’s base, tossed in for good measure.

agreed. let it stand alone so others may join it in the future

Fin my favourite building is 42 storys high,

It is built in a business park that passes for a suburb,

I just lament the fact that it is not in a place serviced by the type of infrastructure that justifies such art form

Heritage value in relation to this one, is the view in the front gate of the royal hospital down the tree lined avenue to a very early building.

One can forget the pressures of modern living in a high amenity area.

A 32 story building jutting over the top of the Royal hospital would eliminate that amenity.

HOW

stira – if you bothered reading about the docklands developments you might understand why they are not highrise.

dublin is not manhatten and shouldn’t try to be.

Poor interaction between design styles.

Pinstripe suit and a rangers jersey instead of a shirt

you will have to explain better than that because at the present moment u are sounding like paisley ranting. we say no. it might be good but just in case we will say no. and will not budge even if it mean a fight.
weither he is in a rangers shirt or a pin stripe suit

It is the most basic principle of Architecture

Buildings must interact with each other, when a prime civic use building such as the National Museum for modern art. It assumes its position in the architectural hierarchy.

It is a building of considerable merit in a low rise style. It is utilised for cultural events such as the honouring of the War of Independence volunteers.

To preserve visual amenity of said quality,

It would be an extreme PARLONCE to stick a rangers jersey into a pin striped setting.

As Red Eoin said this is not Manhatten but I am sure they have development rules there as well.

They also have a transit system that moves 2m passengers per day.

Silly Season

i have read quite alot about the docklands redoin, but tell me why there isnt any high rise to be built there please. Ill tell you why in my opinion they are to conservative, have no vision, want to keep residents happy and can also develp the area faster if they are building the usual 5 storey crap, I mean the new buildings in Sandyford Industrial Estate have a far higher density than those in the docklands!!

The second phase will be much higher density than the first.

Yes a lot of the designs are sadly very bland

but it must be acknowledged that progress is being made. What is planned is higher density than exists.

The last phase of Custom House Square being the perfect example it is 9/10 stories and works very well.

The secret in my opinion is to go a story higher a block as you move down stream.

With one or two very tall slender towers to serve as landmarks.

In the absence of new church steeples the city needs a new form of landmark.

building interact on many levels and not just in regards to scale so to just take 1 princple and form an opinion on that is a folly and so possibly ur development in spacial interaction is somewhat stunted by working for/with an taisce. such narrow-mindness is usually reserved for architectural ignorant people.

as regards cultural events. our culture is evident not only in remembrance events but in our built environment, some may say more so, so i don’t really know what ur argument there is. culture is forever evolving and to embrace a past culture of ours and seize on it as an ideal for the future and we must strictly follow this is again narrow-minded.

and you seem to be focusing ur anger about our public transport system onto the built environment and those who wish to supply services. find the people that are actually to blame ( ie those who squandered money during the celtic tiger years on meaningless crude) and focus ur blame on them.

Fin,

Really I don’t wish to insult your lack of understanding of classical Architecture.

But a folly always follows the construction of a house that is why it is called a folly.

It serves absolutely no function other than to
amuse the builder.

So no, you’d better leave Georgian heritage to the Irish Georgian Society and Duchas

Yes Andrew,

Low capacity Luas and full buses we know all that.

As for the interconnector get it open and then talk about a planning application.

A little less talk and a lot more action

As for the building a very different and simple building that would not work in Dublin

Banco Weise Sud Americano Headquarters

San Isidro Lima

Why should the height of a building even be considered before we see what it looks like? This height-phobia in Dublin is ridiculous – what concerns me is if a 32 storey BADLY designed building got erected. If you want to see tall very modern buildings alongside “heritage” go to Copley Plaza in Boston. I can only wish that Dublin ever gets an area one tenth as beautiful as it. Also last time I checked it was 2003 – not 1803… Dublin does not need to be a museum exhibit – the modern and the old should exist side by side – which shows Dublin has both a past and a future.

Andrew what is short working?

Two points,

The way to maximise revenues is to get passengers travelling the maximum distance.

As stated earlier there is sufficient capacity on the DART at all stations as far as Dunlaoire. Try and get on a DART in Sydney Parade easier said than done.

As for the CIE situation, CIE have done their best in my opinion given the lack of real support they have received from this administration.

Hiving the luas off to the private sector further compounds the problem, because it denies CIE a rare profit making opportunity.

Given the context that they operate a lot of services that have no economic viability but deliver a significant societal beinifit.

So I don’t accept that one can blame CIE, and elevate the LUAS becuase it is simply a private sector project.

LUAS is fundamentally flawed, only a metro will solve the problems.
And an extension to CityWest would make the Heuston development even more UNViable because it would consume even more LUAS capacity

Build the City West extension and build the apartments in the Docklands.

That simple observation Andrew, is
(a) brilliant

(B) above the level of the clowns running the RPA and dept of trainspotting

I had never thought of that.

A four track system would have worked a treat.

i think thats what is happening, but it dosnt need to be four tarcks, it will just join the same line as the other luas trams arriving from tallaght from tallaght.

That won’t work, if you read the ALSTOM submission I put in the LUAS update No 8

You will see that schedule adherance times are 2 1/2 mins. Allowing a margin of error for safety it would be a minimum of four minutes.

Two tracks doesn’t provide sufficient capacity.

Only a metro can provide the type of capacity to service 32 story buildings.

No,

IL and not myself will talk about dramatically increasing congestion at the countries principal rail station in the absence of any coherent transport strategy for this city.

I would not call Heuston Station to the IFSC or Fitz Sq a short stroll.

Flexible blisters

Whats IL and secondly, this buildings may only have 32 apartments in it. Look at the u2 building, an apartment on every floor and there are only 12! and thats 60m. I mean the building will be high but i doubt the floor plate will be big. You wouldnt object if it were a 6 storey building taking up more ground space but only had the same number of apartments would you. Its not like big buildings take up entire blocks here is it? Im sure the building is meant to act like a landmark and if not then why arent the other buildings being built to a higher density? Your objection is based soley on height.

It will be interseting to see how they operate the system.

It will be interesting to see how the cities motorists react to being held up by the LUAS.

Don’t get me wrong I am in favour of the luas in principle, it is just that if the construction phase is anything to go by.

The Metro is the only way to integrate all services from LUAS through to linking a potential Cork-Belfast service as well as dart and suburban commuter services

Stira,

Anything with Tommy parlon’s name on it worries me.

And once it was not particularly visual from the two heritage buildings I mentioned
and once it was the best designed building dublin has ever seen through a slender design

I personaly could even be quite supportive of it

Thus far not one credible high-rise building has emerged in Dublin

Bullseye, stira!

i liked the building proposed for sir john rogersons quay, it has permission but nothing has happened yet.

“Thus far not one credible high-rise building has emerged in Dublin”

Very few high-rise buildings of any kind have emerged in Dublin or anywhere else in Ireland recently, mostly because of the whinging and whining that goes on among conservationists anytime any proposal is made no matter what the quality. They see the words “high-rise” and the broken record is set in motion.

Developers have been reluctant to bother proposing even decent well-designed high-rise schemes because they don’t want the hassle from the likes of An Taisce and their ilk with their dictionary of buzz words and terms that they love to trot out (“overshadowing” being the most overused in my opinion) and the almost inevitable rejection of their plans as a result.

well said Blain!

the 16 storey building is right next to the millenium tower AND the mills buildings – I couldn’t imagine anyone having a problem with it – but you know *someone* will…

Blain,

There are two reasons why so called Hi-Rise buildings have not been designed for Dublin.

Fistly there has been no tradition of building them here, so the expertise has had to be drafted in. Architects on their home patch will generally do a better job.

Those that have been proposed have been particularly poor and often designed in the wrong places.

Can anybody tell me that Spencer Dock should have been built unaltered?

The fact is that buildings will get progressively taller, but this process will involve very well designed ‘Medium Rise’ Buildings first.

Each time the bar gets rasied the potential exists to raise it by another couple of storeys again.

There was an AD in the FT for AIG insurance showing the Manhatten skyline in 1907.

If I remember correctly the tallest building was about 15-20 stories. It (a) looked amazing for it’s time and (b) was followed by progressively taller buildings.

One thing we don’t want is sub standard Hi-Rise it would set a very dangerous precedent

The first significant medium rise or minor high rise building will need to be perfect.

Diaspora is right there, the bar will gradually be raised. I mean a few years ago 60m was the highest we had and nothing came close to it, now 60 m is nothing out of the ordinary. For example if a new 80m building was built, youd set a precedent for Dublin, im sure all new high rise buildings in the city centre would be built to this height for some time. Then a few years later another higher building would be built and this height would become the norm and so on.

Andrew is the development on Pearse Street the site the DDDA has identified as a location for a tall building or another site?

A lot of people are misinterpreting my position,
I like high-rise I consider preferable to urban sprawl.

If anyone had asked me how I would have felt about a 22 storey building two years ago I would have no Spencer Dock.

ASked the same question now, I am saying show me the drawings.

But I think 25 storeys should come next, if that works well go to 28 and so on.

Where on Pearse St is the 16 Storey building going in, is it on Grand Canal Quay?

That would work in my opinion if it is as slender as the Milenium tower.

excuse my ignorance in classical architecture dispora but i wasn’t quite using the term folly in the architectural sense. in easier terms it means, fickleness,foolishness and nonsense among others. and to be honest, the georgian architecture ,as someone suggested(sorry forgot who), was poor in dublin compared to other places so i will leave to the afore mentioned people. hopefully the will decide to knock it and start again.
i agree that time is needed to build a say 100 storey development but at the rate your saying that night not be til the next millineum. but as u said urself u would have objected to 22 storeys and now it would be 25??? why.

If the 32 storey development goes ahead, does anyone that the 60m maximum height they are allowing on Spencer Dock for the landmark building will be highered? It will lessen the prestige of the building and the Heuston development will be a rival. If its kept at 60m it will just be another fairly normal building, that will not generate much interest, it would be prestigious to have Dublins tallest building for Spencer Dock and the DDDA. Some rivalry might even develop between the Heuston and SD development.

oh! forgot to say well said blain.
stira…one would hope it is as a landmark building should stand out not blend in

No what actually said is I think a 25 storey building in that area of the docklands could be considered.

But as always it would be the design that would be more important than the height.

The speed of additional height will like all things depend on the speed of architectural innovation.

Which is beyond my control, but I very much doubt that Dublin land values will ever justify a 100 storey building

it’s good to see that u have changed ur mind. so why not 32 storeys?
yes the architecture does matter the most and so no matter the height it should always be judged on the architecture.

Because as I have explained it is not the height, it is the site.

The site lacks sufficient Transport,

I haven’t seen the drawings

It is located between two important historical buildings.

I want to see the docklands go higher before the experiment goes elsewhere.

I agree with you about spencer dock it could carry more than 10 storeys. When you consider that many 10 storey buildings already exist.

The Pearse St/Ringsend Rd building is opposite the millenium tower and gallery quay (i.e. bolands mill side) – it’s on the water and judging by the plot will be a very very slim block – there’s some crumby house there at the moment.

All this talk of the docklands and high buildigns has been preculded – there will not be any – the master plan has a few token 60m scattered (i.e. U2 building) north and south – the design for the docklands has already been sealed and it’s 5+1 monotony. As a result most taller proposals lately seem to emanate from elsewhere in Dublin – Ballymun, Donnybrook, and Heuston.

From what I know, the original Docklands plan was envisaged to be from 2000-05 but a little recession got in the way and it’s way behind.

They really should reconsider it, and just take each application on it’s merits. The more you build the shorter their S&A housing list becomes, believed to be the longest in the country apparently.

I am vary wary of taller proposals in places like Heuston Station

I thought the Spencer Dock 60m development and the recently announced 19 storey blocks were different developments?

as far as i know they are…

That will mean therell be four mid rise buildings in close proximity to another, irelands manhattan! Whats happening with the southbank development?

Dublin should not be treated as some sort of Florence or Venice so as to prevent ‘high rise’ buildings from from being constructed ….jesus 32 storeys! Ok, listed and historic buildings and their somewhat environs should be respected, conserved and restored but the essence of this 18th Georgian city has been destroyed. It is time to move on and move with the times ….else we will be forever stuck in this limbo.

Almost destroyed there are still a few intact streetscapes but not many.

To limit the effects of taller buildings it would be appropriate to select suitable sites when deciding where to put them.

Outside heritage areas there is little excuse for groundscrapers.

These speculative apartment developments often designed by engineers get it wrong they play too safe. Thus adding to the visual wallpaper that passes for streets in many parts of Dublin.

Site selection is everything, finding sites that have special attributes is the best way to raise the bar.

The four buildings i was talking about are, u2 tower, millenium tower, pearse street and grand canal dock towers, also spencer dock is quite close.

“To limit the effect of taller buildings…”
Again prejudging soley on height. Who’s to say an 18th C building of four storeys cannot reside near a 21st C 32 storey building? But that’s not the point. I think some people here just don’t like the concept of a 32 storey building period. All the talk of selectiing a site etc – is just trying to make out like a fair balanced view… which sites – ones abroad?!? NIMBY??? The fact is that even when a suitable site is available and something is proposed the usual suspects still manage to object – despite earlier protestations of “not being against”

yeah right

Grow up D-D Dallas

Your name says it all, a desert of thought

It also helps when you read the entire thread and not just a couple of posts.

As for someone elses drop a bit of Manhatten in the docklands.

Is that an admission that Irish Architects are incapable of designing tall buildings.

Are there no original ideas?

It sounds an exciting prospest. But just like the Southbank tower, point, Sir JohnRogerson’s, tara street, etc it probably won’t get built.

The others I mention apart from Southbank have all been given planning permission, but nothing has been done yet. An example being Tara street is supposed to be completed by 2004 I believe and work on it hasn’t even started!

I sincerely hope that I’m proved wrong and this 32 floorbuilding and the other ones I’ve mentioned do get built.

What time scale are we takling about before they’re all up? Just curious.

No, the work on Tara Street is due to begin this September.It wasnt meant to begin earlier. It will take 2 years to construct. If they turned Sir John Rogersons quay into apartments they could literally charge what they wanted for an apartment, it would be an amazingly cool building to live in.

Yup – great looking design. Dunloe’s internal warfare and office occupancy downturn spell bad news for that building. Anyone know how this project is doing?

There is no internal warfare in Dunloe anymore
the battle has been won.

Trends in the office market indicate there is little problem in letting high quality landmark buildings close to public transport links that actually go somewhere.

It is however at secondary locations poorly served by public transport that vacancy is anywhere between 20% and 70%

So its to be built? I find it hard to believe that they would find it hard to find tenants for that building.

indeed

when are they starting?

Yeah – the warfare is indeed over. The project was a pet of Noel Smyth so I’m not sure how that translates to Liam Carroll’s intentions. He’s got his own Gasworks to think of at the moment.

Nobody knows what Liam Carrols plans are his first act once in control was to axe the companies website.

Shrewd but I think his advisors will ensure it maximises development potential.

I am just not sure if that agenda will include top-spec design.

Just heard (don’t know if its true) that a 17 storey building is planned for Liffey Valley along with a few other 8-10 storey buildings. I’ll believe it when i see it!

I think I also read somewhere that an application has been made to raise the height of one of the proposed buildings in the new Smithfield development to over 54 metres. Not bad eh? That’s if its approved of course.

16 storeys in Liffey Valley it is in Weds Commercial Prop supplement in the Times.

The real question is whether Frank Dunlop comes out of retirement to get them another section 4

Because from what I’ve seen it will never clear the planning system on traffic generation grounds alone.

Originally posted by stira
Ok, the Luas will be crowded by the time it reaches Heuston station at peak times, but the interconnector will have a high capacity for bringing passengers into the the city centre and doklands. And the one thing is, its going ot have to be built there is no getting out of it for CIE or the Gov.

http://www.platform11.org/dconnector.html

http://www.platform11.org/luas_docklands.html

http://www.platform11.org/nometro.html

There are many stages that can be developed before waiting for Charlie McCreevy to refuse more money for new rail transport projects.

Hang on. There has got to be a catch, i mean i just dont believe it can be that easy. Why the hell are CIE not acting if this is the case. I refer to the already on place interconnector. There has to be something not right.

Originally posted by stira
Hang on. There has got to be a catch, i mean i just dont believe it can be that easy. Why the hell are CIE not acting if this is the case. I refer to the already on place interconnector. There has to be something not right.

Believe me, it really is that easy and even Irish Rail now agree after years of telling us the Park Tunnel route was unsuited to passenger trains. Platform11 had to go to the government and tell them about it:

http://www.irlgov.ie/oireachtas/Committees-29th-Dáil/jct-debates/jct150403.rtf

Shocking to think the essential building blocks of a very useful metro system for Dublin were already in place and millions were paid out to constultants prove to the most amazing fantasies and to allow their graphic design departments to draw all kinds of lines on the map of Dublin…

These Georgian societies, An Taisce , the Green party, etc…..are absolute futile. When it really matters they are hopeless….ie FitzWilliam Street, Wood Quay in the past as well as the likes of shoddy non publized developments which always get the go ahead and are springing up everywhere today.
They object to the big publicised developments….so as to get the Kudos!
They susposedly espouse the classical virtues of symmetry, proportion etc. in architecture…..but really know fuck all about it. Shampers and Sushi anyone….what great talking points.
It is this outlook which has kept Dublin and other Irish towns stunted and has even led to the destruction of their historical fabric.
Having artless ignorant gombeen politicians does not help either!
Shame on the lot of them for it’s the city in the end that suffers!

well said

Fitzwilliam St was pre planning acts.

Wood Quay was pushed through despite overwhealming opposition to the project. In fact the membership of An Taisce grew 200% in three years during the Wood Quay phase.

As for ‘Stunting growth’ it is architects without the cop on not to design substandard buildings or put either sub std or otherwise in the wrong places that causes objection.

What is uterly futile are individuals that cannot seperate the Irish Georgian Society

The Green Party

The National Trust For Ireland

If you seperated your approaches to planning applications a little more carefully you might even win an An Taisce award for good symnmetry or any of the other 17 categories of examination.

Until I have seen the drawings for Heuston it is not foot in mouth time.

197 apts could be accompanied by 350 car spaces or should I say 197 car spaces and 394 tractors and a few Trailors thrown in

Read the entire thread it is well covered unless the finer points are beyond you

There are a type of people in this country that will object to almost everything. Anything with height seems to be the most popular. Narrow minded twats with no imagination, and the worst thing is that they always seem to get their way.

Dublin, a city with over one million people, ends up with no exciting architecture as a result, just block after block of boring, monotonous crap. Box after box after box.

There are a type of people in this country that will object to almost everything. Anything with height seems to be the most popular. Narrow minded twats with no imagination, and the worst thing is that they always seem to get their way.

Dublin, a city with over one million people, ends up with no exciting architecture as a result, just block after block of boring, monotonous crap. Box after box after box.

Sorry guys,

Posted my entry twice. Will get the hang of this sooner or later !!!! Glad i got my point across twice though!

not only dublin but everywhere in ireland. and it’s not just at as seemingly there are a few in galway..1 is a taxi-driver who justs objects to everything….cos he is bored or something..i don’t know but

Designed by who?

Cynics like yourself

Regarding exiting archittecture the National Gallery is an exiting building, Temple Bar is littered with them.

To some people it occurs to me architecture only looks good in a magazine.

The two tallest proposals to be located in Dublin

Spencer Dock

The alternative proposal for Georges Quay.

Both in the Dock lands

One ‘An Auwful lookin thing’ ‘A monstrosity’ according to the General of ‘The Soldiers of Destiny’

Stop whinging and design something exiting that could be called a mould breaking building

Who Objected to the National Gallery extension?

It was not An Taisce.

They weighed it up and considered that the extension was of sufficient architectural merit to warrant the loss of a Historic building.

It was also a sufficient National need to have a world class modern gallery.

Or a world class coffee shop, restaurant and shop with a small gallery, depending on your perspective.:)

The investment in the Gallery has been entirely vindicated lokking at the collections they can now attract.

Money very well spent. It is also a pity it wasn’t completed as originally designed as was An Taisce’s wish.

But then again An Taisce don’t always get what they want like everyone else.

the new wing wasnt supposed to be large amounts of gallery space. it was built both to facillitate and take pressure off the older gallery (by giving it a shop coffe shop etc.) and to create a new and modern face for the gallery on nassau street. it has been extremely successful in attracting people to the venue. i dont think this can be denied

Yes I fully agree with both of you. I was only really joking about in my last comment. It is always very busy and I am sure it is making alot more money then it used to. This is obviously a very important aspect of the running of the gallery.

Diaspora: There were three objectors to the National gallery Extension – An Taisce, the Dublin Civic Group and the Irish Georgian Society – no?

in the “A Platform For Change” document it can be seen after research that few people would actually want to use of the phoenix park route. The underground interconnector is essential for the city in my view. I am a regular user of the kildare line. I would rather get off at heuston and take the luas than be dragged up to phibsboro and the back of croke park before crawling at a snails pace to get anywhere near connolly. Now if the interconnector was built and St. Stephens green would be an attractive destination for a lot of people. This could be a very good hub for metro luas etc…

Platform 11 have some good ideas but I dont agree with them on certain things. They tell you what you want but in most peoples case this is not what they want. They are obsessed with end destinations such as getting people from kildare into spencer dock or getting peole from the airport to spencer dock via the existing DART. They forget about all the suburbs and communities that are to be served by new DART/metro lines. A public transport system should allow people to navigate a city easily and quickly and should not focus on end points of lines so much…

An Taisce withdrew their objection after further consultations and very minor revisions were agreed after the first instance application.
It was the IGS who pushed it with ABP. I attended a lecture in Edinburgh by the architect who was most angry that the government wouldn’t delay the construction to get it right. It was ‘a matter of time and a matter of money’ to the government

I totally agree on the Transport situation

In one word

Intergation,

Ease of mode change

One ticket many destinations

The metro needs to be built to unify the Four existing rail sytems,

1 Dart

2 Luas

3 Western Suburban (Heuston Routes)

4 Eastern Suburban (Connolly Routes)

How it is done or the specific route to the airport is secondary.

Time is the over-riding criterion

Ten Years was ok in 1991 the country was broke

Ten years is not OK now it is now 6 1/2 years since O’Rourke came into office What do we have other than two linear building sites to show for her time and our taxes

Build the whole system as outlined in the A Platform For Change document. The benefits to the city would be incredible. INVESTMENT in the future is the key. Dublin losses approx 8billion in its economy each year as a result of congestion. Reduce congestion to 50% of what it is now and this drops to about 5billion. Thats 3billion saved EVERY YEAR to the city’s economy. So If 10 billion is invested think of the rewards for generations to come…….

AaaaaaaGH…..FRUSTRATION

sexual?

I totally agree again,

You really wonder why they have the DTO to write these reports when they are completely ignored or taken A La Carte.

And I think it is a question of which sections of the platform to implement first

When luas work on first 2 lines finishes start building the next 2. Then when port tunnel finishes get the boring machines and do metro from airport to join luas lineB at Ranelagh. in the mean time work on Kildare line and later start electrifying Maynooth and Kildare so that when Interconnector is built DART goes from kildare to maynooth via Stephens Green, Docklands etc. Metro should be called DART in my opinion with same train liveries etc to avoid confusion of having so many systems. Then you would have DART, Luas and an outer suburban system.

Really though what DART stands for would make a good name for a city-wide transport system

I agree except for one small difference. I would start the inner city Metro First from

Spencer Dock

Pearse Station

Stephens Green

Christchurch

Heuston Station

Running a direct Spencer Dock to Airport Shuttle Bus via the extremely close port tunnel

with integrated ticketing you could buy your ticket in Kildare and only need to change from a train to a bus

I am making this point because as stated in the New Building in Tara Street thread, all systems in Dublin seem to work in a North- South direction.

By inserting a viable East-West Interconnector
it may have the capacity to change development patterns. It would also bring good links to places like

Stephens Green

Christchurch

Spencer Dock that need better service

Yea thats good. I only chose the airport metro first because luas line B needs to link with line A as fast as possible. The idea of a free standing line is non sensical.

if they really wanted to invest get both port tunnel boring machines and do both tunnels at the same time 24/7. These proposed tunnels are not incredibly long so get the bloody finger out Bertie and Co..

This scheme was Announced by Who

Tom Parlon,

Former Career President IFA,

When I read comments like yours I really ask the question how do people like you graduate.

you could quite possibly lack the manners and or the understanding to get anything other than wall paper put up in this city.

Diaspora (and indeed everyone else) – no need to be so bloody personal. Let’s just debate the topic here rather than descending into mud slinging.

It’s all great for us to be making earnest suggestions regarding an integrated transport system – but with a certain Kildare man at the purse-strings it’s unlikely anything will ever happen. He knows not the difference between EXPENDITURE and INVESTMENT.

Cheers D-D,

I just hate being told to put things up my rectum.

It is true about McCreevy being a cautious man
but to be fair to him it would have been a lot easier to spend all around himself.

I just hope as the global economy recovers he will loosen them again, the DOW at 10300 as we speak.

But I do believe he knows the price of Dis-Investment.

There is room under the streets and future budget surpluses a comin

Well – objects and rectums are for one’s personal life (oh er!)

I was talking with a senior member of the Georgian Brigade the other day and they are particularly peeved that they are held up as the scapegoats for the controversy surrounding the Millenium Wing.
It was in fact the Gallery’s fault for the difficulties, as they had offered the site and plans to the architects with the site of the townhouse as a ‘cleared site’ – it might as well have been a surface car-park.

It was only when the plans and all the rest had to be changed to accomodate the house that they highlighted (IGS), that they were then blamed for the delays and destroying the design of the new wing etc

but with a certain Kildare man at the purse-strings it’s unlikely anything will ever happen. [/B]

and this is the whole thrust behind Platform11’s thinking.

Sure we would love to see the Platform for Change or something like it to complement a fully utilised rail network. The Interconnector is a great idea, but Platform11 believes that unless public transport has something to do with putting a saddle on it, Charlie McCreevy will never release the required funds to build it. Thus the compromise of the d-Connector.

It is not in McCreevy’s thinking, railways to him are an alien burden. Urban commuiting/living is totally alien to him and therefore knowing what he is and how this country operates (and it is most certainly not in the purest approch of the DOT’s PLatform for Change), then we have to accept that this is Ireland.

This is why we push the d-Connector, because it is do-able and there is a good chance it could be done and can be a decent integrated first step, instead of waiting 15 years for an Interconnect or Metro than may never be built. We need a solution sooner rather than MAYBE later.

Look at the National Spatial Strategy and then see how the like of Eamon O’Cuiv and Tom Parlon have destroyed it at the parish pump and then you tell me that this same government with this same mentality can see the value in putting an rail Interconnector under the city.

Sorry , but I do like it either, but as they said in The Irish RM – “but this is Ireland!” This is why Platform11 is not making the public transport perfectly integrated dreamers happy, becuase we know that Charlie, Bertie and Mary have no intetion of doing that and we have accepted this reality.

Please down blame Platform11 for an Irish cultural issue we have to deal with as well. You try walking into a government minister’s office and being told, “sure lads, railways are never going to replace the moshercar and anyway dem big mosherways like they have in da States is what the people want”.

http://www.platform11.org

Diaspora, a 197 apartments, are you happy? Many of the five and six storey buildings in the docklands both in existence and proposed have more than that! I really think this will get the go ahead,
1. the area has been identified as suitable for high rise
2. there has been much liasing with dcc on the issue and they have given it their backing
3. the governement are behind the scheme, itll give the project more weight
4. Despite what you might say, the area is well served by public transport, (better than anywhere else in this country).
5. It is not purely residential and commecial, ie. museum etc, bridge etc.

Aside from everything else, I think it’s also worth pointing out that the Military Road site is a very short, twenty-minute or so walk (ten-minute cycle) into the city centre.
With Luas (almost certain to be finished by the time the tower is built) and at least a dozen bus lines running along the North and South Quays, and a couple of others through Kilmainham – I would find it hard to think of an area better served by public transport.

As with Diaspora and An Taisce’s role in the National Gallery Millennium Wing debacle (this thread, this week), Graham Hickey is engaging in revisionism in relation to the Irish Georgian Society’s role in this development. What’s going on with the champions of conservation?

In case anyone is unclear about what happened, Frank McDonald’s The Construction of Dublin sets the record straight on p326:

“Assuming that it could get rid of a surviving 18th-century building on the site, the gallery did not specify that it should be retained in its brief for an international architectural competition in 1996 for the project… Having awarded the commission to Benson & Forsyth, architects of the much-acclaimed Museum of Scotland in Edinburgh, the gallery ran into serious flak from An Taisce and the Irish Georgian Society, which were outraged that a premier national cultural institution would demolish a Georgian house with a rare Regency ballrooom…”

The ballroom, in case you are wondering, is that lumpen yoke, marooned in the winter garden restaurant. Who now thinks it was worth the fuss? Is it that realisation that is at the root of the current revisionism? Were the conservationists’ objections ever meant? Frank hints at the answer in his account, which continues:

“They [An Taisce, IGS] were as stunned as the gallery when An Bord Pleanala upheld their appeal in January 1998, overturning Dublin Corporation’s decision on the avowedly conservationist grounds that the replacement of these worthy, unlisted structures with a modern building would materially contravene its policy of protecting the area’s architectural and civic design character. Having recovered from from their shock, the gallery and its architects submitted a revised scheme, retaining No. 5 South Leinster Street in its entirety, and this sailed through the planning process without a single objection.”

Trace,

If you had read what I said agreed revisions.

According to the architect it was the government who didn’t back the architect to proceed with another application with the revised and agreed structure that would have had the facade over No 5 Sth Leinster St.

Dublin has lost what could have become a very important facade; all An Taisce wanted was to retain the Ballroom. A strategy which was is in itself a diificult decision. Like many buildings this was got at by the accountants and risk managers who would not take the chance that the uncompromising Georgian Society would not win a second time.
Once they had their Ballroom they didn’t object nor did An Taisce. Because they acknowledged the quality of the new building’s design. If the mandins of merrion st had more patience we would all have had a better gallery extension along with the ballroom which deserved retention.

Which is what it is all about,

Quality of Thought,

Quality of designing to a particular site

Quality of integration into the existing infrastructure.

Preserving existing quality

Stira,

197 apartments, well then why build it so damn high. On a cost basis the taller you go the more it costs. To interfere with the Skyline for the sake of it is a ridiculous proposition. The model for good tall residential development is Ardoyne House

It would also take an increadible architect to pull a form like that off. So why haven’t the pictures been publicised? I suspect it is because it simply isn’t up to it. but merely attempting to fly a kite for a 12-16 story thing that would end up being called ‘dat yoke ober der’ if it were to be built.

As for this being the best serviced area in relation to public transport in Dublin. That is a joke. I could list a number of places but that would be a waste of time I will list only 2

Fairview

Ballsbridge.

As to Kefu’s centrality theory,

There only two definition’s of centrality in Dublin Firstly the road signs indicating that you are 2kms from the City centre, The closest one to this development is half way down the croppies acre at least 1km giving 3kms from O’Connel Bridge. To mention nothing of the two real hearts of working Dublin Merrion Square and The IFSC.

The second definition is couriers, how many bicycle couriers do you see this far out?

0

Their maximum distance is Arran Quay, in other words it is to far to comfortably cycle. not to mention the sheer danger of cycling in Dublin, my doctor once said to me if you cycle you can expect at least one accident per year.

If you want a discussion on higher densities do yourselves a big favour and find a site in this city where it would prove benificial to all.

Diaspora, I don’t know why you have to treat every point as a conflict.

How and ever, I’m assuming the “joke” that is public transport extends as far as the Dublin Bus website, which lists the following routes for this area.

“Heuston Stn.” is serviced by the following routes : 25X | 26 | 46A | 46X | 51 | 51D | 51X | 66X | 67N | 67X | 69x | 748 | 79 | 90 | 90A |

“St. James’s Hospital (James St. Entrance)” is serviced by the following routes : 123 | 206 | 51B | 78A |

There are other bus routes from Chapelizod and Blanchardstown that could also be used.

Also, I know literally dozens of people living in Stoneybatter, Islandbridge, Kilmainham, Fairview, Ballsbridge, Donnybrook, Ringsend, Ranelagh and so on, all of whom walk into the city centre. So, I don’t know where this centrality thing comes from.

Yes, Fairview and Ballsbridge have good public transport networks. So do all of these central locations because they tend to attract five buses from five different suburbs. It doesn’t mean that Heuston doesn’t have a good network.

Served yes

Served well no

Why does the bus lane stop for one of the Quays? It can take quite sometime for Buses to get down this one Quay just before Arran Quay.

I agree with you that people walk from Ranelagh, Ballsbridge and Stonnybatter and Donnybrook

But
Islandbridge, Kilmainham, Fairview I think it would take a pretty dedicated individual.

I think that in Theory Hueston has an excellent location, however in practice it’s pretty shabby

Diaspora

I find cycling in Dublin to be fine as long as one is careful and obeys rules of road. Common sense and awareness is all thats required. Been cycling there for 9 years and never had an accident

Its by far the best way to get around Dublin with the shambles of public transport thats available…. Oh Santa bring me a city wide metro

Niall,

You are of course right in that cycling is the most efficient way to get around Dublin.

That is in my opinion a very sad fact given the economic revolution plotted and executed by the IDA.

When Ireland’s GDP is analysed we have the right to expect compariable transportation options to places such as Singapore and Luxembourg.

I feel that cycling to work should be a lifestyle choice for those that wish to look good and be healthy.

I feel that the Dublin City Quays are lethal to cyclists, in direct contrast to the Clontarf Road. How many cycling fatalities have occurred on the Quays?

In any other country something would be done.

The plans have been described as the “next stage of the Minister’s initiative to transform State assets, and fully utilise and extract minimum value from under-utilised State land”.

Tom Parlon himself extracting “minimum Value”

:

i think you mean maximum value!

I believe that was what was in the paper, it was the original post that got it wrong

http://www.entemp.ie/press03/181203.htm

“Exploration Station has close links to the famous Boston Children’s Museum and will draw on recognised international expertise in the field to develop a unique world-class facility. The Chairman of the Board, Mr Michael M. Collins, S.C. said `Exploration Station will ignite children’s imagination and thirst for understanding and by its unique mix of science, culture and the arts encourage the development of lateral and creative thinking.’

The project has been agreed between this Department of Enterprise, Trade & Employment, the Irish Children’s Museum and OPW. As part of the development of publicly owned lands a custom designed 50,000 sq ft building for this interactive centre will be provided. The Irish Children’s Museum will occupy this new building under licence to develop this unique interactive learning experience with a predominant focus on science. They will be responsible for the cost of fitting out and running the new centre”

Shades of Spencer Dock here and Kevin Roche’s conference centre.

“If we don’t get our profit the Children of Ireland don’t get their Science Museum”

This museum should be built in an appropriate building.

Anything with Michael Collins SC impresses and reassures me with equal measure to my deep distrust and suspicion of tparlon

Let us not forget about the ‘Leon Krier’ touch, going back to classical rome etc. What Dublin really needs is an army.

http://www.pcgameworld.com/screenshot.php/game/1535/page/1/Rome:_Total_War/

Just one more, can’t resist;

http://www.totalwar.com/community/rp5.htm

Bad disipline!

I agree the Persian War Elephant always exceeded a Palladin

I am thinking more of the modern high tech equivalent of an elephant roaring down the narrow streets of our capital at 60mph! 🙂

LUAS, cars, buses…

I agree but as long as our Palladin’s get e15m spent on new catwalks we’ll never go underground.

Due to that unfortunate economic reality of ‘The scarcity of resources’

Another reality I did become aware of over the xmas in particular, was the futility of using TAXIs as transport now in Dublin.

€12.00 to go 1 or 2 miles in traffic!

While the LUAS cost a billion quid, it still is costing the average shopper that to move about?

Some fundamental questions, and realities need to be faced.

I spent Christmas day in a taxi in 2001, 5 of us shared a taxi that went 500kms over unsurfaced roads. It cost a total $120 for ten hours or about 20 cent per kilometer.

On return to Dublin I got a taxi thatwent from College green to Portbello alone, it cost $8.

So we have the $5.20e pint followed by the 6euro per mile taxi.

Only a Metro and deregulation of the bar monopoly can sort these issues out.

yeah, I can’t argue with that – travelling around teachs you a thing or three, or four, no doubts.

I tend to learn most of what I know about economics around the world through snipets about the IT industry – in the last few years, it has been interesting to observe the swings and the round-abouts.

Ever think of investing? I believe that is where many United States ordinary citizens put some of their cash – even younger generations, hoping to make a quick buck.

Definitely,

The IT industry provides the both the future living patterns and the best long term investment returns. But it also presents the greatest risks due to it’s tendancies towards extreme numerical volatility.

Spare a thought for a freind’s dad who at 60 put his entire pension into a well known share at $128 per share, they fell to $18 at one stage; they are about $35 now.

Personally I do invest but I am a little more conservative; looking mostly at London shares that pay a dividend over 4% and deliver long term capital returns of about 6-10% historically

There is no doubt that if your theory of the four year cylcle is to be bourne out, this is the year to sell ‘Safe bets’ and buy three or four top IT shares such as IBM, DELL, INTEL, HP etc.

Then you and my freind’s dad should sell in October before the cycle heads south again.

Thus going back to safe financial shares or the safest of all residential property. The only asset class that offers 80% leverage, or someone else taking 80% of the risk and you getting literally a free asset in 20 years.

To check it out http://www.ft.com

click the djia symbol on the right and play with the graphs over different time phases, if you enter a company name e.g IBM you can look at individual companies.

A shame about the Irish Times cutting so many staff a couple of years ago

What bugs the hell out of me though, is how more and more of these important financial decisions are being made nowadays be complex AI programs used to track these distinctive patterns in human behaviour, human spending etc, on a time frame.

That is what my post here;

Computer gaming and AI

is sort of alluding to. The decision making capabilities AI in computer games. This is one book I have always wanted to sit down and read.

Amazon.com

The economic models are based on AI programs but the real calls are still made by people. They tried the AI system but it all fell apart in the russian collapse in 1997, when the LAN systems issued too many sell orders together.

For this reason the real decisions are made by chief/head traders who have the courage to stand by their investment strategies.

The high priests of commerce who play their games in the Cathedrals of Commerce.

That is why I feel that if high rise is to be built in Dublin it should be commercial space in the Financial district.

For this reason the real decisions are made by chief/head traders who have the courage to stand by their investment strategies.

I can now see the reasons why they would have wanted to transfer decision makiing onto computers. Because it must be such a very stressful business trying to base decisions on a human hunch.

I guess those tall buildings would come in handy for jumping off of though! I you made a bad decision. Do a search on Google for games like Total Annihilation and Medieval: Total War. It is interesting to notice just how often the AI behaves stupidly, as in your Russian example. Anyone who would be used to playing Real Time Strategy gaming or Turn based Strategy gaming, as in chess, would know how lightly a bad computer AI glitch is to occur. Even the most beloved RTS games have bad issues!

But then again, most of the games like:

S T A L K E R

an RPG, are made by Eastern European small startups! They like their turn based strategy, those guys!

http://www.gamespot.com has a very intriguing interview/diary with the makers.

I personally have wondered a lot what it would be like to play something like Shogun – I love the wide open spaces displayed in the game.

I just came across this article on my travels through and about cyberspace.

European Gamers talk about Ireland

Agreed the Digital Hub was a foresighted investment. The architecture was completely appropriate for the project, a bit of total war meets the industrial area of GTA 3.

The Science (Museum) interactive centre is a compete must for this city. But not as a millstone that needs to be subsidised.

It is required as part of our industrial development policy and education system.
Every year a new report bemoans the fact that we have one of the lowest second level science participations in the OECD.

This facility should give motivation to children to persue a depper interset in Science related fields.

Therefore it will ultimately provide more science graduates for hi-level industry.

Can the country gamble on an unappropriate 32 story apartment block clearing the planning process to secure such a vital catalyst.

Harney you have had the photo get the chequebook out…..

Has anyone else any opinions about the Digital Hub project? Was there an Archiseek thread about that? I never knew anything about it, I must say – heard the name alright some time last year.

I hear Smith’s toy store advertising 10% of all video games today – 10% off of €50.00 isn’t all that much is it! :-0

I think you were right Brian

CBS wtites “And Trinity Biotech PLC (TRIB: news, chart, profile) of Ireland said early Monday that its Uni-Gold Recombigen HIV test had been approved by the FDA. The company noted that Uni-Gold, a one-step test that produces results within 10 minutes, was the first HIV test device to be approved for use with human serum, plasma and whole blood.

The news sent shares of Trinity up 56.7 percent to close regular trading at a 52-week high of $5.14. In late trading, the stock rose 6 percent to $5.45 and was one of the most active issues on Inet ECN.”

30/12/03

CBS writes “In biotechs, Trinity Biotech (TRIB: news, chart, profile) continued to storm ahead, rising 25 percent to $6.41. Shares in the Irish company soared 57 percent on Monday after it said it won U.S. clearance for its 10-minute HIV test.”

What goes up must come down:

2/01/04 CBS writes “

Last 5 days quote
Date Close Net Change % Change **
31Dec2003 5.58 -0.61 -9.84%
30Dec2003 6.189 1.05 20.41%
29Dec2003 5.14 1.86 56.71%
26Dec2003 3.28 -0.02 -0.61%
24Dec2003 3.3 0.11 3.45% “

Another 5% down again today for the new year. Snakes and ladders

Well just like my cathedrals of Commerce thread, you just cannot understand people who live in cities, who travel around the world in jets, the way in which buildings and new schemes are being built without some clue of how the global economy works too. We learnt precious little to do with that in Architecture unfortunately – noone even liked our lectures in economics – I used to find them awe inspiring! Dunno why, exactly.

Here is an unusual post I have read elsewhere about Google:

For currency conversion, I generally just use Yahoo’s:

and it will give you the answer! 😀

I have a few favourites bookmarks for things like currency converters on the web now – great information on your fingertips really – the way that local radio even announces death notices down here, changed the way people used radio – web will be something similar.

1 USD = 0.805153 EUR

1 EUR = 1.24200 USD

Now there is a topic for conversation, in context of capturing Saddam, airport security etc, etc, etc.

Don’t know if I linked this before, but it is well worth the read too:

http://www.wired.com/wired/archive/11.11/linus.html

Linus Torvalds, a guy you may here more about.

I am still very impressed with this AI stuff though, I love the way the soldiers are organised by the AI in the attached image. Bear in mind, this is all calculated by an artificial machine.

Even the AI on Pocket Held systems, is just good enough now to play ‘Pocket War’, or pocket economics, which ever you like.

http://www.metalshard.com/pocketpcgames.html

A bit like when you were in School, you always remembered the people a couple of classes ahead but never those behind.

That is why everyone is bored, the country went to the top of the class economically. Now there are only two ways to look across or down.

But for architecture the future can look up as we the city has not progressed anywhere as much as in IT/Pharma or Financial Services.

The one good thing out of Ireland’s Globalisation phase is that property values have risen sufficiently to allow a much higher specification of construction.

http://www.gvaworldwide.com

Check out Dublin’s position in the global rental charts under market statistics.

It allows more quality than before.

Null

Yeah, there are many things in this discussion alright – but I would like to have a good Property Economist present at least, before I started to really delve in there – they tend to bring an interesting slant on it all.

There are indeed a number of parallels you can draw with the cost>quality>economics debate in architecture. I have noticed lecturing staff in college frequently use the analogy of aircraft design, when talking about detailing in Architecture.

Here are some of my own ramblings on the subject. I am very familiar with the notion of economics, features, quality etc as it pertains to smaller consumer objects like computers. But analogy can also be drawn with much bigger pieces of technology like Concorde for instance.

Then you have got people like Linus Torvalds – the creator of the Linux operating system – one which appears to be much more versatile than anything MicroSoft have offered – you can find Linux on Palm Pilots or on supercomputers. Microsoft seems to be restricted to Personal Computers.

Software is a huge industry in itself. So when I look at Architecture from the point of view of value for money – you really have to study carefully the techniques employed by other professionals to cost benchmark, and ‘to sell’ quality in other products.

I mean, I know you aren’t talking about longeivity so much in a computer – but it does have some elements like stability, redundancy etc – so that when you are getting into the nitty gritty 1:5 details of a facade skin, you are actually using similar language – stability, redundancy, cost/performance ratio, cost of maintainence, ease of maintainence, standards etc.

BTW, I think that one of the main reasons why Architecture will not be able to produce better quality in the future, boils down to two basic things in this country:

1) Man Power stabililty, or people always leaving.

2) Tools and people who can use them. See my post here:

http://www.aceshardware.com/forum?read=105061317

I mean, think of the screen shots of Shogun Total War game above – that is the kind of order and sophistication, with which a computer should be able to manipulate a real designed object like a building.

After Peter Bacon I am a little wary of ‘Property Economists’

If you want a good belly laugh about gaming AI have a quick squint at my post here:

http://www.aceshardware.com/forum?read=105061341

Apparently, combining different systems of AI – once they become established into various different genres is very risky business indeed. Same with stock market prediction software I would imagine.

the post right after by Gen x87 is a classic too! 🙂

Green skyscrapers in America.

http://www.metropolismag.com/html/content_0104/gen/index.html

Thats a damn good building

It is interesting that they have Competitions in Massachusetts as well.

This thread should be renamed “the everything thread” – Heuston Gateway to Public Transport to Grand Theft Auto!!!

It is certainly a lot more interesting than the building

Has anyone an old copy of simcity 3000 they want to get rid of?

Well this topic of 32-storey anything, leads to all kinds of references, left brain discussion,. . . call it ‘distance learning’ with a twist.

I am surprised no one has started a Mars photos thread, and discussed how that will affect us here in Ireland. 🙂

Well if you could work the Metro into that you’d be on to a winner…

This development represents the kind of quality of architecture that you can expect the OPW to provide under the Decentralisation Programme particularly for the relocating headquarter offices’, concluded Minister Parlon.

Shudder

These tall buildings could become a very nice haven for WiFi tech geeks though;

http://www.csmonitor.com/2004/0105/p13s02-wmgn.html

Bit technical, but anteresting article from an architectural perspective too.

Forget hi-tech for one second how about a minister who can speak english

I agree, that a lot of Architects are very good speakers, but not everyone has that same neck to stand up and talk about complex issues as Architects have. But that simply doesn’t mean that everything word uttered from the mouths of beautifully spoken architects in meaningful and relevant to the time or the place – Or that every thing said by the sometimes awkward speakers in this country is stupid.

I have rarely felt the urge to speak up in company about very main issues, but I think Archiseek for instance, having made an attempt to forward ones thinking on many different issues, there is great personal reward to be had after an extended period of time. Would you agree? Now, the option of ‘distance learning’ as I describe ‘web-work’ or ‘knowledge-work’ isn’t simply open to everyone in terms of time and other restrictions. Not very many young men my age, from my part of the country even type as well as I can these days.

Simply put, it is far too easy for Architects to throw stones at everyone else for not being well spoken enough.

Agreed but to hold ministerial office is quite an elevated position.

I agree that in general it is a terrible thing to look down your nose because of accent or diction.

But when it involves a pattern of development that is comin to a town near you, questions need to be asked.

I really believe that a competition would have been more appropriate. I think it ensures a better quality of display of potential projects, because the buildings drawings must be ultimately more legible than the COMPETITION

I am having a little difficulty with the photo

Does it seem to you that the majority of the building is clad in a stone or rendered finish?

I gets back to that project for Beirut doesn’t it? I mean, the fact that most buildings there were made of soft limestone, plastered over to stop it crumbling, but now they are expressing the limestone to make it look neat and clean looking.

Competitions are a bit like ‘Radio Friendly’ songs though – I really don’t know if they achieve very much at the end of the day. What have you thought about big competitions like Bibliotheque de Paris etc?

How French were those entries, I quite liked the one by Meier myself, and also the one by Stirling. I saw a recent monograph on Botta and he seems to have built a lot of works, that were ‘sort of designs on paper’ for a long, long, long time.

Does a Botta design on paper translate very well into reality – his buildings try to evoke a sense of place, materiality etc I think – whether you can do that in modern construction or not. . . . I guess one really has to go and look at some newly completed Botta works to find that one out.

I am going to post something about Thom Mayne aswell shortly – a nice post, with a lot of images – possibly put it at cyburbia or CG Architect or someplace and link it here. It sort of will deal with how Mayne deals with ‘place’ and the earth in areas like Los Angeles with little to go on.

Do you think his few realised works live up? Diamond Ranch high school for instance, theory, reality, experience. . . .

So it is in your opinion a stone or even worse a rendered finish.

From all my travels the only really good tall stone building I have ever seen was the County Court House in Miami which was about 18 storeys if memory serves, the memories of South beach are still fresh though.

What a disaster a thirty two storey rendered building,

Will the panels come loose like Ballymun?

maybe it is that my respect for steel and glass is getting the better of me.

I also hate buildings over ten storeys that allow you to count the number of floors easily that is what I love about strustures such as the hancock tower.

Building Aesthetics, is one thing I do not try to verbalise and it doesn’t always translate in drawings or renderings either.

true…it may turn out completely different…

How else would you describe something other than in words?

I think that the model more so than drawings shows this project for what it is.

Rendered (or some type of stone cladding) not a rendering.

“This development represents the kind of quality of architecture that you can expect the OPW to provide under the Decentralisation Programme particularly for the relocating headquarter offices’,”

Shudder

why..because it may the architectural quality of the towns that were lucky enough to have a sitting minister

Pretty much,

I really had hoped that the Spatial strategy would have given cities such as Cork and Galway real critical mass. i.e. a credible international airport in Galway with Paris and Amsterdam Flights to service the existing industrial base.

But no it is Portlaoise that is getting the 125,000 square foot office block and CC’s to stimulate its economy.

No this 32 storey building is being developed to pay for the offices in TP’s home patch.

ok…while i would prefer to see it in galway but why sacrifice 1 city for the development of another town… after all it’s the development of the country as a whole which is the primary aim and should be the primary aim of all irish people.
this hard on u have for top parlon(whoever he is) is getting fairly old. i think u should ask him out on a date seeing as u talk about him that much.

Sacrifice decisions are taken on a risk and reward basis.

There is no reward in this process, the NSS decided what the most viable strategy was for the country. It’s aim was to develop the country in a more viable pattern of development.

Particular places were identified as being the correct places to direct investment. A number of places identified as not being the ‘Correct places have for reasons of political expediency been selected to recieve promises of jobs in a local election year.

To pay for these promises a 32 storey block of flats that has no architectural merit through its insipid choice of building materials and uninspiring form is to be thrown up.

As for your the date was it not you who complained about the churchs stance on morality in the recentralisation thread?

Originally posted by Diaspora
As for your the date was it not you who complained about the churchs stance on morality in the recentralisation thread?

i have no idea to be honest but what are morals?

Morals are standing up for what you believe. With some people this becomes morality when beliefs affect the social structure of society and what others can do without moral censure.

And what has dating to do with complaining about populaist policians who ignore national strategies in their lust for constituency goodies.

This is a poorly designed block of flats,

another architect could have produced a better return from the site in a less obtrusive way. Who would decide this a panel of judges

fair and open competition.

what a strange defination of morals but whatever floats ur boat. and my god man, can’t u take a joke or are u capable of humour???? the fact that u are talking about him a lot invites that joke!!!
i haven’t seen the proposal so i can’t comment on the aesthics but you were against it before it was shown at all because of it’s height. and to answer what! from the other thread. why not build as high as we can. and it’s not quite rising from 2 storey’s but the bland 5 storey shit that is mindlessly being built all around the country but espically in dublin. who decided that high rise building takes away from the surronding buildings. if anything it emphasises them.

How does a 32 storey poorly clad block of flats emphasise high quality buildings such as Dr Stevens Hospital and the Royal Hospital now known as the IMMA.

What it would serve to do is block light and overshadow what are buildings of exceptional architectural merit.

Tall buildings work best interacting together, I think the new World trade centre is notable because of the interaction between the buildings.

The reality is that the proceeds of this development would if it were allowed.

And that is a BIG IF

Pay for decentralisation to Portlaoise, 1000 CC’s at 16 to the acre equates to roughly 62.5 acres of additional urban sprawl.

You are right about the bland design of so much of what is built. What has the potential to change development patterns are well designed buildings in the right sites.

This design is not right for anywhere

have u got any pictures or do i just rely on an taisce’s opunion

http://mwprices.ft.com/custom/ft-com/quotechartnews.asp?osymb=av&ocountrycode=uk&pageNum=&company=NEW&industry=&region=&extelID=&isin=&ftep=&sedol=&FTSite=FTCOM&symb=rsa&countrycode=uk&t=e&s2=uk&q=rsa

only joking

http://www.opw.ie/whatsnew/pr2003/18dec03.htm

It saves as Tom Parlon announcing a new town hall for Rosscommon, good to see former hospital canidate turned PD MAE Sexton gettin looked after in the bargain.

well size wise it’s not too bad but can’t see anything from the model materials wise…

But you can visably count the number of storeys. That would indicate that it is not an intricate metal and glass structure.

In fact it is positively unambitious and bland simply another moderate specification speculative development.

Nothing landmark about it at all.

A false dawn for the height brigade?

their is nothing outstanding about it but it’s height makes it ,as the new buzz term is, a landmark. it’s simple form is kinda growing on me though. could do with something else for the bottom few storeys. straight up will make it seem taller than it is. an introduction of some forms about half way up will lessen the impact. but it’s not bad. i don’t mind that u can count the storeys. although it probably will have balconies for private open space or “defensible space” so one would be able to count them anyway.

Originally posted by FIN
true…it may turn out completely different…

It always does, that is my whole point.

I started out thinking that new computerised visualisation technologies may some day capture what a building looks like, eventually when technology improved.

But the weird thng is, the more that technology does improve and as gaming especially approachs photorealism, the less I want to view architecture in the eyes of a machine.

Believe me, that is a bit of U-turn for myself. :-0

why is that

Depending on the objectivity used in selecting the angles used. Photo montages can work.

Of course the real thing is the only real way to judge but is that not hindsight in relation to all predictions.

The model does give a feel of what this block of flats will look like.

More importantly it lets you see what it will not look like. i.e. A Progressive Landmark building of quality one competing to be the best building of it’s generation.

Being handed a brief and not having to compete to get it perfect is what this project is all about.

Re the balconies, I am sure that the building will look well when a few occupiers to decide to sell and place auctioneers boards on their balconies. You could say it may even introduce a little colour to a very dull submission. Unless the cladding started to seperate from the structure like another tall flats complex. Then it could get really interesting

depends on the cladding and sure the boards will add quite an exciting colour but however that is not the developers problem.

Nothing is ever the developers problem, but it is the architects duty to prevent problems emerging.

It needed a finer finish to be considered, a more distinctive grain.

It’s simply a bland and poorly thought out building even the circular glass cylender at the top is merely an after thought.

Cylenders generally work well only if they start at the foot and go to the top. The example of Hardwicke House on upper Hatch St is an example. The Weise Banco in Lima I can’t get a picture of, but it does this really well.

Now that is a landmark building
It is based on the form of an early Irish church with the spire being a cylender from ground to forty stories. I will post pictures when I am down there in March or April.

The cladding is a mix of silver glass and steel and dark brown glass and steel. It has flat roof and pitching walls, the variation being about half the floor area on the upper level.

It is impossible to tell the number of storeys in the building because the grain of the cladding is so intricate. It is also constructed from top end building materials, after eight years it is still in pristine condition.

The most original building I have ever seen on many levels.

This isn’t high definition either. And what is to stop people hanging equally colourful clothes from the balconies?

Can you not sell the design?

I couldn’t it’s bland but bland on a grossly inappropriate scale.

Andrew the Hancock Tower is in Chicago,
you are right it would be a long commute to Midtown Mannhatten

Comparison to Ballymun is justified on two grounds

Firstly it is a public project and it will contain social housing,

Secondly it has a stone or rendered finish.

Steel and glass or at least a little thought in selecting innovative cladding into the design would have helped.

Bland Bland Bland

steel and glass on an apartment building…. exposed internally i presume!!!! would an taisce not have a problem with that..seeing as u r champions of quality of life

There is greater problem with 32 storeys of non-descipt render or stone. Enough negativity though

Why don’t you try a detailed desciption of the building and sell its positive design qualities

Because it I can’t see any, it is a mishmash of inappropriate design cliches in my opinion.

so what are the design cliches? and as i have said before i haven’t seen the thing. all i have seen is that pic of a model you gave a link to. it may be inapprociate but i don’t know yet.

The broken form at the top is a direct rip off from the Millenium tower which is less than half it’s height.

The glazed circular section towads the back of the model is a complete cliche.

There is nothing original in this

that’s true. but i was once told that there is never anything original in architecture as it’s all been done before. now i don’t particularly believe that but it makes one think.

Not a snob, it was an utter disgrace the treatment the people of Ballymun were subjected to. Lifts not working facilities not put in etc etc etc

I am sure that if you were around in the late 60’s you would have been talking about a new and exciting form of urban development.

Originally posted by Diaspora
Not a snob, it was an utter disgrace the treatment the people of Ballymun were subjected to. Lifts not working facilities not put in etc etc etc

the lifts not working is not the buildings fault..rather the council as while not knowing much about ballymun i believe they were council owned.
facilities not put in??? which ones?
it is very easy to blame the architecture and architects but upkeep has a lot to do with the sucess of a building. of course if necessary facilities aren’t put in then u look at the architect’s but then again back in that time it might not have been part and parcel of the norm to put these facilities in and could have been up to the council to provide elsewhere. i am not going to defend them as i believe i have only seen them once and that ws from a distance and so know nothing about the problems.

I agree on the lifts Fin but in the context of the accusations of snobbery it needed to be raised.

In the context of the facilities many integrated developments are commenced. Many of these developments historically did not have the ‘social benefit’ elements completed leaving the residents with little or none of the elements that make communities livable.

It is not the architects fault if the site managers fail to maintain facilities down the line. But it is a wise move for architects to conduct consultations with prospective site managers. Or be aware of all the things that can go wrong. I think open balconies at this height could present problems.

I am still of the opinion that on design grounds this is a poor submission.

That it is not the correct site for a 32 or similarly tall building.

I prefer the idea of tall office buildings located at integrated transport hubs.

oh! right.
in regards to interviewing prespective site managers..that is not up to the architect either. that is the client and therefore the council in this case. architect’s never do that. the site manager is always appointed by the client. the management company’s name is given as part of the planning process, usually part of the conditions. i don’t know if it would help anyway if we did interview them as the manager could change in 6 months so it would be pointless.

unfortunately balconies are seen as a necessary evil in regards to defensible space. i agree with u that a building so high nobody is going to use them as it would literally blow ur head off but then again maybe i’m wrong.

i thought this was an intregrated transport hub. or will be soon. around busaras and connolly would also be a location for high rises…not apartments though!!!!

With developments on a similar scale it is not uncommon to see multi-disciplinary teams working together such as, planning consultants, architects, Valuers and more latterly the larger property mgt agencies.

It is only in the strictest sense that architects don’t have responsibility, in terms of ensuring a development is approved developerslike muti-disciplinary consultations.

I entirely agree Tara St- Busaras- Connolly presents a much better transportation infrastructure. Spencer Dock as a Metro terminus would provide a new dimension to transportation capacity.

fair point but i have never personally worked with a management company but it may happen.

and would not trying to develop two such hubs not be in the best interests of the city.

I am sure that as the new management company input develops we’ll all be working on this basis. Which can only be a good thing as they bring great experience to projects.

As for developing a second viable hub it has to be a good thing, but I wouldn’t hold my breath.

The last thing anyone wants to do is exacerbate the mess at Hueston.

Public transport in Dublin couldn’t be worse considering how much money was spent.

Can you imagine if Tom Parlons long distance commuting constituents were gridlocked out of getting back on time to vote for him?

u could be right. i would like to hear from anyone who has been in this position to see how much interference happened in the design and how they got on with this consultant….
as i believe we are in a transitional period from a 2nd rated country to a top rated i believe that we in this generation just have to live with the disruption caused during our “growing up”. it will prove a sucess in a few years time and everyone will wonder what all the fuss was about and of course everyone is going to say they were behind the ideas all the time.

lol…..disapora u didn’t take to kindly to my joke the first time i decided not to mention it again but i can see she must feel the same!!!! ha,ha…

Point taken on the joke,

but I hate politically motivated bad planning

What do you will work well in time the infrastructure?

yep. i think it will.

I agree the port tunnel will do excellent.
The Luas provide a little extra capacity.

But the roads were planned very badly.

When the decision in 2000 was made to build Motorways to Belfast, Cork and Galway they continued with the same 7- 20 mile bypasses.

Three contracts were all they needed.

The absence of a metro and airport rail link at this time are felt by all commuters. Until these (Road and Rail) are completed Ireland willcontinue to be a second world country infrastructurally

But you are right on eaten bread being soon forgotten

the motorways if we are to believe the policitians will be underway soon and not just these stupid little by-passes. but we can’t build our own raods seemingly. i think we should hire foreigners and they will lash them down.
and the pace of evolution is slow. patience is needed.

I agree, the days of the Minister and half the cabinet opening 3 mile bypasses should be consigned to history.

If we can’t build cheap roads bring Johnny foreigner in to build them. There is no reason why Portlaoise to Cork and Limerick can’t be one contract.

This is a very small country!!!

I think we can thank the IFA for many of the hold ups.

I don’t believe the polititians, I think patience is warranted, loads of it and it needs to be towards the other motorists.

You are right about the foreign contractors, the development of the A7 in Germany was completed from Wurzburg to the Swiss border in three contracts. A distance of about 500-600 kms

i don’t know if the ifa are to blame. but it is our planning system. well i hope the introduction of this fast-track for big infrastructural projects will cut this out. a lot of it is small minded people as well. i know with the loughrea by-pass that it was proposed twenty years ago (as it is a shit of a town to come through ) the business people of the town objected cos they thought they would lose money from the business. as it turns out if u stop there u will be waiting for ages to get out so nobody stop there anymore. now the business people are srying for it. it’s starting soon by the way. but a main part of the motorway is supposed to start soon also. i have no problem with jonny foreigner coming in and doing our roads for us. after all we did it for yanks and brits.

The reason the IFA are to blame is that they instructed all their members not to deal with the compulsory purchase agents. It held everything up by about two years.

Loughrea is a nightmare, I found the rezoning of lands containing the bypass route to industrial use one of the worst and most corrupt rezonings I have ever seen.

It is almost as good as planning being given for a house on the route of the proposed Luas extension to Cherrywood, a full year after the route was agreed.

i know..makes no sense at all. u would think that our publis reps. would be just slightly smarter if they want to be corrupt. mind u they have been getting away with it for years….
and fair play the planner u gave that house the go ahead. he/she is definately earmarked for the darwin award

i think i talked too soon. some objectors to loughrea by-pass!!!! when will this country learn.

anyway. has this building gone in for planning?

Re Loughrea, no doubt the objectors are the buddies of the councillors who rezoned their lands industrial. Claiming that will interfere with my new and hard won access rights. Wheres my flyover to build my ALDI?

🙂
have no doubts about that. i didn’t get my lands rezoned so there is going to be no bypass… class isn’t it.

Originally posted by Diaspora
The reason the IFA are to blame is that they instructed all their members not to deal with the compulsory purchase agents.

sorry i knows a bit back but i thought that cpo are exactly that…there is no option ????

It would be hillarious if it didn’t involve the third most important road in the Country

well first as far as i’m concerned but then again i’m biased in this regard.

To Quote Dermot Lacy former Lord Mayor of Dublin “You can’t move 40 foot containers on the back of a Bicycle”

I am also biased towards particular infrastructural projects.

The CPO process is very fair and transparent there is a first instance assessment. Upon which an offer is made, then a little negotiation. If no consensus emerges an independent arbitrator is appointed and the appointment must be agreed by both parties.

There is then an option of appeal to the High Court on legal grounds but not on the award.

The IFA decided that they wanted more than open market value for members lands, the government caved in to their junior minister and there are rumours that Brussels is investigating.

people making rash assumptions again..how does he know? did he try it? 🙂 what was that in relation to?

that seems a bit daft… they should have no opotion but to accept market value. greedy bastards.

The Port Tunnel,

He’d certainly make Ripley’s believe it if he pulled even an empty container along.

btw guys, I said I would link this just for the glass and steel, CG visualisation fans here. Enjoy!

CG Architect

Page 2.

Page 3.

Just make sure you are on a fast connection! 🙂

I am not too familiar with developers myself, but I did stumble across an article about a Toronto developer, which might prove interesting to thread readers on this topic.

Toronto developer

Some interesting thoughts about Toronto in that article, had a good read of it this morning. What did you people think at all?

Re article originally posted by garretace

Toronto developer

Very much so,

A pretty impressive resume. I like the feature on the interior which looks very livible.

Very interesting trends about the blandness of very diverse suburb types.

I also noted the height limit that this award winning architect builds to of 13 storeys.

I would like to see pictures of the exterior of a few of his buildings. Very original no doubt

🙂

Yeah, there were so specific points I meant to scribble down properly while reading it this morning – I will get back to that again, some specific points worth bringing up in this thread I think. I must read the article again, though to remember.

Any sign of the photos Brian?

I linked it on the other thread a while ago; I wrote a couple of words and posted up some images here:

BTW, you may need quite a fast connection to see all the photos, and a big display would be handy, or else just wait a long while on a slower connection, as I often have to do. 🙁

My ideas about Thom Mayne’s work

It is quite simple actually, that architects should play war strategy games like Shogun Total War, in order to become more versatile with the way that they use computer interfaces.

I have been pretty busy of late writing a Photoshop benchmark, to go into a suite of major benchmarks soon. See how it develops, but I wanted to make sure that how Architects might use a Photoshop system in future should be part of ‘a benchmark result’.

I.e. quite heavy image working.

Basically, while a lot of computer software out there claims to be very suitable for architects because it draws/models doors and windows instead of lines and arcs – I believe that software will only be really useful for architects when it finally becomes to model or draw the kinds of things which architects think in terms of – that is numbers of people who are going to use the eventual structure and get around the institution.

If it is possible to control armies of these little guys running around the screne, then why can’t that notion be applied to architectural design software? Stupid idea, stupid question – but I think now that computers are reaching maturity, it is time for some refreshing and new ideas. Because people seem to have written them off basically at this stage, and people seem to feel a heck of a lot more comfortable now that ‘computers have failed’ to help the way that architects design anything.

Oh well, it just means a few less billion for AutoDesk I guess! 🙂

Maybe someone could start a service where you could send cad-drawings via the net or on a DVD-Rom and a sufficiently large computer could do the calculations.

Behaviour profiling would be very useful in designing large-scale projects.

It would also be very useful to Health & Safety practicioners.

The question is would you use Matt Groonings
profile for the Irish ala the St Patricks day episode?

AI, well what Medieval Total war does, is it adjusts the AI for various units of soldiers – like some behave with a lot more cowardice than others do. On the other hand, some stay and fight, when perhaps they should actually run. You are expected to understand this yourself, and as a general you are expected to make the necessary adjustments.

I don’t know if I mentioned this in the past, but WWI relied heavily on improvements in defensive war, which were not met by equal but opposite improvements to offensive war.

I.e.

* Tinned food, soldiers fought through the winters.
* Barred wire, stopped cavalry charges, which broke up dead-locks.
* Hydraulic canon firing – no need to reset aim, meaning continuous rate of fire of heavy artillery.
* Telephone – allowed better distribution and organisation of resources along a long front, making breakthroughs more difficult.

Medieval warfare was beautiful – the archers when first introduced could just win on their own – so cavalry was needed to break up the archers, while spearmen were needed to resist cavalry.

PowerRes is something similar to what you said, about submitting work online to do large calculations

http://www.respower.com/news_2004_01_16_max6

I can see, that would be the best direction for rendering and certain AI software like we are discussing.

But in fairness, given the description of Medieval Total War gaming strategy above – I think that the best way to approach something like a building for the public, say it be part of a campus like in UCD, DCU or Trinity – or an extension to the National Gallery of Ireland, or an Olympic Swimming Pool, or a new National COnference centre – is simply to thing of the people using the institution as dynamic units.

Doing so, by using computers to highlight pedestrian flow patterns etc, you could anticipate a heck of a lot more about a design, than simply worrying about the colour of the f*** blinds, mullions, carpets, which are nice to get right, but what architects devote much too large a portion of their time doing.

I can never help when looking at these pictures;

http://www.hughpearman.com/articles3/dublin5.html

how much of the medieval pedestrian narrow street idea has been brought into the architecture there. How people move through the architecture – not like some really static wonder structure like a Mies van der Rohe. I guess people like James Stirling were also instrumental in bringing back some of this dynamic experience of architecture.

Then I see pictures like this one;

http://www.totalwar.com/community/bat9.htm

And I am automatically reminded that the old architecture in those days was much more inhabited, vibrant with lots of characters and busy people. Than the experience you get nowadays of medieval, which is normally something rather desolate and barren, renovated by the OPW! 🙂 Yeah, they had the budget for the nice paving, but something is missing.

Whenever, I come across bits of medieval embedded into parts of cities, that are still in use – I think that medieval architecture, streets and spaces really do still live. I think FIn mentions Italy being a place where that is the case – I know if I ever went there to visit, I would be looking at the architecture from that point of view.

I am not sure what kind of public liability clauses they had in medieval times though, for people falling from ramparts etc, but it was much more fun!

I think the Medievel lords had the odd citizen getting chucked of the ramparts built into their AI strategies!!!!

But it really does beg the question why this type of profiling isn’t done.

If you want certain documentary changes you go to Hackets or Oxwood. They give new perspectives, this if it came to pass would be revolutionary in terms of extending perspective.

A bit like the clarks shoes add of about 10 years ago with the two different conveyer belts of babies.

yeah it was italy. i was there last year for a medieval festival. it was in some small town about an hour outside rome. like paddy’s day but much more interesting. had a play basically played on the street. horses carring knights etc. it was class and to see the interaction between the users and the streets was facinating. i will try and find the name of it for u. the little town came alive. we got to see most of the architecture of it because as i said it was a kinda play that brought u around different churches culminating in a finish in the main square. how even ther large churches interacted with the people and the smaller houses.

Yeah, I really like the connection between medieval war fare, movement of troops etc and Beaux Arts architectural master plans, which was so great an influence on Louis Kahn.

Kahn is one of these very problematic, poetic kind of guys to get into – so most people just do a very large detour.

But my biggest problem with architectural ideas and the way they can be presented in education etc – is that poetic ideas, do not necessarily have to be understood in poetic ways – you can always use some kind of lever to ‘get you into the groove first’, and then just embellish it as much as you like then.

I like the notion of medieval total war game – because it presents in a very no-bs fashion – an idea about space and architectural design I have grappled with for a while.

That small tiny individual people, negotiate the environment around them, on foot, through both space and time – that give the necessary time, energy levels and direction – you can move people around quite a lot.

I am thinking about books by Edmund Bacon here, who tried to deal with Medieval urban planning etc. But the problem is, that when most students hear about ‘Medieval urban planning’ they go ‘what a bore’.

Fin has illuminated the topic quite well too.

I mean, take this argument that architects constantly use – that cities are designed by vehicular traffic engineers – it just begs the question of ‘where were the pedestrian traffic engineers’.

Hiding behind a bush, I have no doubt.

stuck in traffic!!! 🙂

i think that medieval planning they used the landmark as a navigation and street evolved in such a way as to be able to see it from anywhere. this gives the whole street/city a human feel and people could travel through the spaces easier with a knowledge of where they were.

Actually you really have to get out and about around Dublin city, to really see how things like St. Patrick’s cathedral do provide that orientation function within the city of Dublin, even still today.

I mean, St. Pat’s probably isn’t true medieval, medieval no more than ChristChurch. But the function it does in the urban fabric is quite similar.

There is a nice Church in Dawson street, that really marks it spot quite well too – even if in years to come, it became a bank, or an office, or headquarters for a company – it would still function architecturallly within the entire city, in exactly the same way.

So maybe there is an important lesson in studying religous architecture – for doing commercial projects.

yea the urban planning took that idea into even now with out “landmark” buildings. not quite the same cos the idea just got a bit mangled but u can see it’s ancestory.

St Annes Church an Dawson St has many admirers, it is a fine building.

When people talk about true Medievel landmarks they are talking about buildings such as the Cathedral in Milan which can be seen from a great distance.

Where the cathedrals of Commerce came in as that the Church(es) no longer provide the lead when it comes to landmark buildings.

Where the skyline was once dominated by church steeples in most cities people must look to property developers to provide new landmarks.

As time has gone on these landmarks have tended to get ever higher. Given the problems with open balconies most cities tend to build their tallest buildings as offices.

Tall buildings are in essence the pinacle of our built environment it is therefore essential that they are perfect.

I have a couple of images lashed out in the computer recently, but I forgot the damn disk again today – so tomorrow maybe.

Computers are really a top alternative, when looking for ways to design those things to be ‘as perfect as you say’.

It looks like Ireland is going the ‘Earth Simulator’ route soon, with the Science Federation Ireland thing.

http://www.sfi.ie/content/content.asp?section_id=226&language_id=1&publication_id=1085

My best guess, is that some heavily fortified bunker out in Sandyford industrial estate will house a big computer for scientists around Dublin to log into and run calculations.

Apparently, this is a very lucrative area indeed – Japan currently lead in this field, beating the USA for a number of years now.

Maybe, they could get a few little ‘Total Architecture’ games to work for us. 🙂

Do you remember the begining of Robocop when the news broadcaster spoke of all the corporate HQ’s moving to Iceland to avoid urban chaos?

But back to simulators, definitely the way to go the addition of more perspectives can only be a good thing.

It is good to see investment going into this area, the biggest problems with the blunders have the past have involved insufficient calculations.

A little overcalculation would be great!!!!!!

Well how many calculations do you want? Earth Simulator can do roughly a thousand, thousand million sums per second.

Basically it can simulate all the weather systems around the world, as they happen in real time.

I have a bit of a talk going on here;

http://www.aceshardware.com/forum?read=105065626

about supercomputing too.

But the whole area of digital storage technology is getting really interesting too.

http://www.theinquirer.net/?article=13688

So it will be possible to actually store a lot of high quality info.

Couple of more images at the bottom of this thread, just click the links.

http://www.cgarchitect.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=8&t=000061#000009