1st FLOOR PLANNING EXEMPTIONS
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@Bren88 wrote:
I’ve most often seen it singled out as POS to the rear.
Being private, has multiple terms and meanings.
For property and land, it’s most commonly used to separate from public. Public open space is quite obvious, private can, imo, be to the front. A LA may wish to calculate any area how they see fit (unless it contravenes regs).Just because a front garden is in public view does not prevent it from being private.
Being private, is not always the same as having privacy.Right boys and girls, the opinion sharing and handbags at dawn ends and the online references and in-post quotations begin.
Time for some CPD, archiseek-style
This post from henno pretty much nailed it as far as housing goes, back in 2008:
The thread:
https://archiseek.com/content/showthread.php?t=6985
The post:
https://archiseek.com/content/showpost.php?p=82911&postcount=2
However I’ve just checked the link in the post and its broken.This is a current reference Sustainable Residential Development guidelines mentioned in my 2007 reference given below.
Here is the 2009 link:
Guidelines for Planning Authorities on
Sustainable Residential
Development in
Urban Areas
(Cities, Towns & Villages)http://www.environ.ie/en/Publications/DevelopmentandHousing/Planning/FileDownLoad,19164,en.pdf
Chapter 7 The home and its setting
Private and communal open space
7.8 All houses (terraced, semi-detached and detached) should have an
area of private open space behind the building line. The area of such
private space will be influenced by the separation between buildings
(see above) and plot widths. Smaller patio-type rear gardens may be
acceptable in more innovative layouts where communal open space
in the form of a courtyard is also available. For terraced houses in
particular, this can often be more appropriate as it offers a method of
accessing the rear of all dwellings (by residents only) and can be
visually more attractive than narrow fenced-in gardens.
Roof gardens may offer a satisfactory alternative to courtyard
communal open space, provided that climatic and safety factors are
fully considered.7.9 The provision of adequate and well-designed private open space for
apartments23 is crucial in meeting the amenity needs of residents; in
particular, usable outdoor space is a high priority for families.
Private open space can be provided in the form of rear gardens or
patios for ground floor units, and balconies at upper levels. It is
important that in the latter case adequate semi-private or communal
open space, in the form of landscaped areas, should also be provided.In the Chapter 7 Checklist the following question is asked:
• Do all houses (terraced, semi-detached and detached) have
an area of private open space behind the building line?
The below seems to be the 2007 position from the DOE on Apartments and its a current link so may work as detail advice with the above 2009 general guide – there don’t seem to be any contradictions from a quick scan.http://www.environ.ie/en/Publications/DevelopmentandHousing/Planning/FileDownLoad,15335,en.pdf
Sustainable Urban Housing:
Design Standards for New ApartmentsChapter 4 Communal and private open spaces
Introduction
4.1 The provision of adequate and well-designed communal and private open space for each apartment is crucial in meeting the amenity needs of residents; in particular, usable outdoor space is a high priority for families. (The provision of public open space will be addressed in the Sustainable Residential Development guidelines).
Communal open space4.2 Communal open space will commonly be provided within the landscaped courtyards of perimeter blocks; designers need to ensure that the heights and orientation of adjoining blocks permit adequate levels of sunlight to reach such space throughout the year. Roof gardens may offer a satisfactory alternative where climatic and safety factors are fully considered, but children’s play is not passively supervised as with courtyards. All communal and private open spaces need adequate sunlight – see “Site Layout Planning for Daylight and Sunlight: A Guide to Good Practice†(Building Research Establishment, 1991).
Private open space
4.3 Private open space can be provided in the form of rear gardens or patios for ground floor units, and balconies at upper levels. It is important that in the latter case adequate semi-private or communal open space, in the form of landscaped areas, should also be provided. Private open space at ground floor level needs some form of boundary treatment to ensure privacy and security.
Balconies
4.4 Balconies (or glass-screened “winter gardensâ€, separated from living spaces) need to be of a certain minimum depth to be useful from an amenity viewpoint, being able to accommodate chairs and a small table. A minimum depth of 1.5 metres is recommended, generally extending for the full length of the external living room wall. While deeper balconies might be desirable in certain cases, this has to be balanced against the need to avoid overshadowing the living room. Balconies should be accessed from living rooms, not bedrooms.
4.5 Site conditions, such as elevations facing north or overlooking busy streets, or tall buildings, may diminish the amenity value of balconies. In such cases, it will be the designer’s responsibility to provide some form of compensating amenity for the occupants. This might take the form, for instance, of above-average sized living rooms and generous landscaped communal open spaces.
4.6 Balustrading to balconies should be safe for children. Vertical privacy screens should be provided between adjoining balconies.
So in general:Private Open Space to the front in general only exists in Apartment developments in screen off areas of patios [ground floors] and balconies [upper floors]
Where it is aggregated where it means reserved for the use of the residents of the scheme and is not publicly accessible, it is termed Communal Open Space – this inlcudes landscaped areas on the ground level and roof gardens.
My comments in relation to Housing Development stand.
Private Open Space is normally only deemed to exist behind the front building line, whether its to the side or the rear, but some townhouse-style developments and high density developments may have screened courtyards
Exceptions
In certain restricted Mews developments you could argue that the front courtyard enclosed by a high wall and gate is also private open space, but normally this is a feature of Mews Lane Developments and won’t replace the minimum back garden requriements.
We have recently fought and lost and appeal who provided NO rear garden and only a substandard side garden and had to move the front building line to within 500mm of the back of path on a site where the house was originally a shed in 1960 or thereabouts. Seems the funny decisions will always be with us, but this was a once off, beside an existing modernist intervention and on balance will probably improve the accommodation hugely, with a sloping roof to the rear going down to a 2.4M eaves and no dormers there was no real overlooking issue and no overshadowing. Clever fellow designed it.
FWIW
ONQ.
Well done ONG for making the effort and for trying to clear up the waffle and misinformation being peddled on this thread.
(Just a note- Planners also allow the bin store area to be included in the P.O.S. calculation for apartment developments).It is clear that some who have posted do not have planning experience and have difficulty recognising differences in terminology, such as the difference between terms like “private property” (land under private ownership, eg. the front garden of a house) and “Private Open Space”, (a planning term referring to spatial amenity associated with residential developments, required and defined by Local Authorities under instruction from the Department of the Environment).
People here may debate until the cows come home about what is or what is not P.O.S. – At the end of the day, the Dept. of Environment/Local Authority defines P.O.S. in general terms in Development Plans and in specific terms, if need be, when assessing residential planning applications.
Those asserting that front gardens constitute P.O.S.- hey- make the planning application. Set a pecedent. Be the exception to the rule. Design that house with it’s arse hanging over a cliff and tell us how you got the permission.
😀Tayto – its ONQ not ONG 🙂
Missed getting an e-mail from my accountant because of the same screw up in the e-mail.
LOL!
And thanks for your supportive comments – its not easy for laypersons or even people who specialise in design or theory or conservation or BER certs to get their ehad around planning matters.
It was the first thing I gravitated towards after qualification, because without permission you cannot build – apart from exempted development, but that’s a whole other thread.
ONQ.
@Tayto wrote:
Well done ONG for making the effort and for trying to clear up the waffle and misinformation being peddled on this thread.
(Just a note- Planners also allow the bin store area to be included in the P.O.S. calculation for apartment developments).I think this was doen in the case of the house with no rear garden that we unsuccessfully appealed – AND they took space under an overhang into account.
No doubt we’ll see Basement Open Space at some point in the future!
(snip)
Those asserting that front gardens constitute P.O.S.- hey- make the planning application. Set a pecedent. Be the exception to the rule. Design that house with it’s arse hanging over a cliff and tell us how you got the permission.
😀Haven’t ODOS done that yet?
@Tayto wrote:
Well done ONG for making the effort and for trying to clear up the waffle and misinformation being peddled on this thread.
(Just a note- Planners also allow the bin store area to be included in the P.O.S. calculation for apartment developments).I think this was doen in the case of the house with no rear garden that we unsuccessfully appealed – AND they took space uner an overhang into account.
No doubt we’ll see Basement Open Space at some point in the future!
(snip)
Those asserting that front gardens constitute P.O.S.- hey- make the planning application. Set a pecedent. Be the exception to the rule. Design that house with it’s arse hanging over a cliff and tell us how you got the permission.
😀Haven’t ODOS done that yet?
onq wrote:I think this was doen in the case of the house with no rear garden that we unsuccessfully appealed – AND they took space uner an overhang into account./QUOTE]Apologies ONQ for my dyslexia,
Your analysis deserves support. It’s clear you went to a lot of trouble and made the effort to provide clarification and provide sound advice while others muddied the waters. And all free of charge!
Re. your planning appeal- that sounds fairly interesting how planning was achieved without a rear yard/garden. Just for future reference, what was the final area of P.O.S.? Was it 25m2 or less?
-Tayto.
@onq wrote:
Right boys and girls, the opinion sharing and handbags at dawn ends and the online references and in-post quotations begin.
Time for some CPD, archiseek-styleONQ.
Like the answer no bullshit involved in it, clear concise information to stop the babbling on and on going around in circles. Your links were very good I will read up on these. But if I may say job well done.
@Tayto wrote:
@onq wrote:
I think this was doen in the case of the house with no rear garden that we unsuccessfully appealed – AND they took space uner an overhang into account./QUOTE]
Apologies ONQ for my dyslexia,
Your analysis deserves support. It’s clear you went to a lot of trouble and made the effort to provide clarification and provide sound advice while others muddied the waters. And all free of charge!
Re. your planning appeal- that sounds fairly interesting how planning was achieved without a rear yard/garden. Just for future reference, what was the final area of P.O.S.? Was it 25m2 or less?
-Tayto.
Hi Tayto,
I’ve been providing what I hope is competent advice free of charge online since the middle of last year.
I take the view if you advise people on planning and development matters, they’ll see the the complexity and the need to retain a professional, and so some good may come of it.I post to AAM on the sites, planning, self-builds and extensions forum.
http://www.askaboutmoney.com/forumdisplay.php?f=82
With little new work coming in and none of it paying very well, this has kept me sane and reinforced my self image in the face of financial and professional armageddon.[mods if this sounds like spamming or advertising please redact]
Herewith the ABP reference and you can research the original planning file from there over on http://www.dlrcoco.ie
http://www.pleanala.ie/casenum/233501.htm
We advised the observers and the third party appellants to little or no avail.
In one sense its a hugely positve outcome, since it supports improvements to existing /brownfield sites.
In another its a sign of things to come in terms of the reduced amenity of housing in the future in Ireland – the “little bit of land” mentality is gone.Some would argue that’s a good thing, that we were building too dispersed layouts and still are, even with the recent development out at Santry Demense by DTA shedding a little light on the proceedings.
Select Residential
Select Santry Demesne
For the record, I was banned from the Planning Forum on boards.ie for giving just the sort of informative answer you see on top but adding what the mods there deemed to be off-topic conversational waffle below.
You can’t please everyone it seems – no surprises there.
Also for the record, in terms of maintaining sanity and getting some good experience of comtemporary work as it happens you cannot be the AAI.
This is NOT the relatively recently formed Architect’s Association beloved of CK – this is a venerable institution many people who have a genuine interest in and love of architecture are members of.
http://architecturalassociation.ie/event/site-visit-santry-demesne-dta-architects/
ONQ.
@Solo wrote:
Like the answer no bullshit involved in it, clear concise information to stop the babbling on and on going around in circles. Your links were very good I will read up on these. But if I may say job well done.
Thanks but its merely an aberration.
My normal waffling and babbling circling mode will kick in again shortly.
Oops! Too late…
ONQ.
Is there an exemption required were the opposing windows are front windows opposing the back garden and rear windows of another house/ duex / maisonette.
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