Re: Re: The destruction of St. Stephen’s Green

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@alonso wrote:

did you not state that it would not be busiest? That’s how i read your previous post anyway

My earlier post stated that if the metro line, as originally planned, were to be built, the figures indicated that the stop/station at St. Stephen’s Green would not have been as busy as the stop/station at Trinity/College Green. This was for a line along a North-South axis which was proposed to be built through both locations.

The interconnector, which runs approximately along a West-East axis, clearly cannot be built through both St. Stephen’s Green and College Green (or a location in its vicinity – such as was originally proposed in the 1970s).

The mistake which appears to be being made is to built the higher capacity West-East interconnector line through the area – of the two – to which there seems to be less demand to travel. And, probably, to spend a lot more money for the privilege.

@alonso wrote:

those that want to go to work in the South East city office core might differ. Who that works on Leeson st, Fitzwilliam or Harcourt st would prefer College green?

I’ve no doubt that many who work in those locations would differ, and would prefer a station at St. Stephen’s Green rather than College Green. Of course they would. My question is, what is the overall situation which would best suit the passengers on the highest capacity line ever to be built in Dublin, and on the eventual network generally?

@alonso wrote:

Why? OCSt will have a Metro stop anyway and is served by heavy rail at Tara, and Luas lines.

Well, St. Stephen’s Green will be served by the metro, and is served by a LUAS line – perhaps also others in the future. Precisely why it is so important that the interconnector be built through the location as well, given that people will be able to change as a network is developed, is something that hasn’t been clear from the figures (or other documentation) yet produced.

@alonso wrote:

And your use of the term “clearly be capable” is dubious, expecially considering this thread is about the sheer scale of the surface disruption necessary. How would you build a similarly scaled interchange on College Green?

Maybe it is dubious. I obviously haven’t been able to do any site investigations. However, the proposed interchange in the rapid rail plan for Dublin produced in the 1970s was located in the vicinity of College Green/Dame Street. I hardly think that a panel of experts would have suggested an underground interchange where it simply wasn’t possible to build one, and I am sure that they would have done some research to that effect.

(Worth noting also, that it was proposed to have an interchange – in that area of the city – between two heavy rail lines, not one heavy rail line and what is effectively an underground tram).

As this is a thread about the proposed impact on St. Stephen’s Green of the metro works, it is vital to remember that the impact on the Green is due both to the plan to terminate the metro at the Green and to build the interconnector through there.

@alonso wrote:

tongue in cheek. But compared to the Green and the adjacent office core – (an area that I would suggest has the highest density of persons during office hours on the island) it’s shag all.

Alonso, that really is not correct. At times of the day when there is no demand to get to or from “the adjacent office core”, areas like College Green, Dame Street, O’Connell Street, etc, see loads of people getting on and off buses. Why don’t you pop down on Saturday or Sunday afternoon, or any weekday between half-nine and around five, and see how many people are trying to get to or from the “adjacent office core.”

@alonso wrote:

Stephen;s Green is one of those retail areas. Serve it directly.

Hang on a sec, Alonso, you simply cannot pretend that St. Stephen’s Green itself is a serious retail area. (And, nor, obviously, are the adjacent Georgian streets). It has its shopping centre and a couple of other shops dotted around the North side of the Green. What else?

I think you may perhaps be mixing it up with the very important retail area in Grafton Street and its environs which, overall, would surely be as well served by a station at College Green as it would be by a station at St. Stephen’s Green

@alonso wrote:

On the contrary, College Green is one of the furthest locations away from the large business area of Dublin. I don’t honestly get your characterisation of SSG as not being busy. The top of Grafton street is thronged all day and at 9am and 5:30 the area to the south and south west is full of commuters. That sentence makes me think we live in different cities. Try walk up Merrion row at lunch time when these workers get out. You can’t. Not without using half the roadway.

I have never said that St. Stephen’s Green is not busy, and I know that Merrion Row is indeed packed at lunchtime. But how many people are trying to get to or from there at that time. Practically nobody.

@alonso wrote:

Exactly. Exactly Exactly. But SSG is the centre of this retail and office core. College Green is a road artery that severs the city. If, and it’s a gigantic if, they decide to shut the entire College Green area for a decade and dig it up and then repave it for pedestrians, i wouldn’t be opposed. BUt SSG is still a better location in my opinion because people work there and in the adjacent urban quarter! College Green is a long long way from any major concentration of offices – Hawkins and Apollo House, George’s Quay(both served directly by DART already) and Central bank is about it, compared to a massive district of 5/6 storey high density Georgian offices plus mews, with major blocks interspersed in between (BoI, Greencore, Harcourt St, Eircom, Government Bldgs, SSG South, Hatch Street etc) .

Now, Alonso, you can’t honestly say that St. Stephen’s Green is the centre of any retail core. It lies at the edge of a retail area, which could be well served by a more central station such as was proposed in the 1970s.

It also does not lie at the centre of any office core, which requires a station to be built at St. Stephen’s Green. It lies at the edge of an important office area which includes much of Georgian Dublin. Many of us have been able to view the way things are done in other cities, and it is simply not credible that we are expected to view St. Stephen’s Green as the local station for, for example, people working on Adelaide Road or Fitzwilliam Place. These locations must be catered for by extensions of the network. (Building the interconnector through St. Stephen’s Green in order for it to be seen as a location which “serves” these areas is, in my view, a total cop-out). And the Government offices on Kildare Street, Molesworth Street, Nassau Street, etc., well would their staff be seriously discommoded by having to walk to or from Pearse Station or a station in or around College Green?

@alonso wrote:

what???? Now you;ve totally lost me. Grafton St, S William St, Camden St – Georges st QUIET at the weekends? Jaysus I queued for an hour for a shaggin taxi at the SSG rank a few months ago and as for shoppers, are you serious?.

In fairness, Alonso, those were not the streets which were mentioned in my original post. I mentioned Baggot Street, Leeson Street, Adelaide Road and Hatch Street, the latter two of which are extremely quiet locations at the weekend. There’s also nothing happening on Upper Leeson Street or Lower Baggot Street at that time. Upper Baggot Street is, I hope, not within what is considered to be the catchment area for the interconnector, while most of the the people who are present on Lower Leeson Street at weekends are unlikely to be looking for public transport at any time when it operates.

Grafton Street, South William Street and George’s Street are all busy at weekends. Would it be difficult to get to a station at College Green (or its environs) from any of these locations? Would it be significantly easier to get to a station at St. Stephen’s Green?

Now, I grant you, Camden Street would require more of a walk.

@alonso wrote:

Where is this city you refer to? What largest group are you referring to? Commuters are by far and away the largest group and far and away the group with the sharpest peak demand. Are you talking about the Shoppers? They want to go to the exact spot this station is located at. The EXACT spot! It IS the city centre. It’s “town” Stephen’s Green, Grafton Street, Govt Buildings, the Office Core of the city with the highest concetration of workers in Ireland, the domestic nightlife core and a major urban space all to be served at one interchange.

I hope I have answered the basic meaning of “the largest group” in my reply to ctesiphon’s question above, though I will return to that shortly, when work allows (And I hope I didn’t offend him – I was only trying to clarify what I meant by the phrase).

I hope it is clear that I am not talking about the shoppers. I’m talking about the commuters, the shoppers and any others who will use the highest capacity line ever to be built in Ireland. There was an original plan to build this line through the environs of College Green. When Minister Mary O’Rourke decided that the LUAS Green line would not, as planned, be built across the city, the cross-city (East-West) heavy rail plans changed (apparently) to accommodate this. As far as I am aware, we have yet to see any figures which show that this was the correct decision.

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