Re: Re: reorganisation and destruction of irish catholic churches

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Hi Gian

@Gianlorenzo wrote:

Like many modernist you have the whole thing backwards. Christ is Truly Present in the Eucharist. He is also present in the priest as he is “in persona Christi”, and in the assembly.

I’m not sure what you’re point is here. We’re obviously in agreement on the latter two points as I specifically said them in my post. I didn’t mention Christ’s real presence in the Eucharist as I took it as read. Unless you are implying there is a hierarchy of ‘presences’ which of course we can discuss?

@Gianlorenzo wrote:

What you refer to as ” an exclusive zone into which only male ordained may enter” is in fact a place set aside, not for Man, but for God.

Yes and no. Yes it is a special area where the ‘priest, deacon and other ministers exercise their offices’ (GIRM 295). Yes it is one of the options for the placement of the tabernacle. No because all of this is subserviant to the unity of the liturgical assembly – which includes the priest. It is the reality of unity that is primary and which makes us consider something like altar rails. GIRM calls upon us to consider: ‘ The special character of the sanctuary is emphasised and enhanced by the distinctiveness of its design and furnishings, or by its elevation’. Nowhere does it say about it being exclusive.

@Gianlorenzo wrote:

We do not attend church to worship Man. What is undermining the Liturgy, as you put it, is this elevation of the “People of God” above God Himself.

You see this is where we have to give each other the courtesey of actually reading what is posted, not what we think is posted. Nowhere did I say that we attend church to worship Man nor did I say I was elevating the People of God above God.

@Gianlorenzo wrote:

You refer to ‘guidelines produced by the Irish Bishops’, can I presume you are referring to ” A Place of Worship”.


@Gianlorenzo wrote:

I will quote what Dr. Alan Kershaw, Advocate of the Apostolic Tribunal or the Roman Rota, said regarding this publication at the An Bord Pleanala Oral Hearing re. Cobh Cathedral, in Midleton:
” It must be stated that this publication was never put to a vote by the [Irish] Episcopal Conference and it was never submitted to the Holy See for recognitio meaning that it has never been approved. Hence this publication is not vested with vim legis and thereby is totally devoid of any authority.….. The book “A Place of Worship contains nothing more than opinions, hence it must be disregarded.”

er.. that would be the opinions of the Irish Episcopal Conference? I’m not au fait with the mechanism by which it came to be issued other than it was presented to the Irish Episcopal Conference for approval by its Liturgical sub-committee. I presume, since POW exists, that it received that approval. I’ve certainly never heard of any objections to it voiced by any Irish bishop. I suggest Dr Kershaw needs to read up on his procedures though as the Irish Episcopal Conference have authority to issue such guidelines without recourse to the Holy See. This authority is in GIRM (and, going on memory now, I think that bishops conferences are obliged to issue such specific guidelines). So it never would have been submitted as it already has approval by definition.

@Gianlorenzo wrote:

I don’t know who has been instructing you regarding Catholic Liturgy, but I suggest that you look to the authentic Church document on this, and in particular, I would suggest you start with the writings of our present Holy Father. 🙂

POW is an authentic Church document.

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