Re: Re: Limerick Boat Club ~ Wellesley Pier ~ Poor Man’s Kilkee ~ Sarsfield Bridge

8th February 2009
@justnotbothered wrote:

Originally Posted by CologneMike
The bottom line for me was to bring a little bit balance to the “Limerick Boat Club” topic.

To say that the plans are crap is farcical. The Ennis Road side needs some improvement and the pier location maybe controversial, but these plans are never crap!

You aren’t bringing balance, you’re cheerleading for an ugly building in a sensitive site.

The plans are absolute rubbish, I’m old enough to remember the many promises which came with Cruises street, Arthurs Quay Shopping centre and Steamboat quay to be as easily impressed by some lego inspired rubbish flung up on the river. It’s so utterly out of character with it’s surrounds that I struggle to see how you can see any merit in it.

The reason the you might have felt there wasn’t any balance to this topic is because when 9 out of 10 people can see a proposal is crap, it’s always going to bring about an unbalanced discussion. If we all rounded up against Steamboat Quay would you suddenly feel a burning desire to praise it? Or if we all felt Todds was looking a bit shabby, would you suddenly see careful, exotic nuances in it’s design which we have somehow missed?

Again, I’m surprised you stake any part of your reputation on this site by defending and cheerleading this project.

8th February 2009
@demolition man wrote:

I’m all for it.That makes it 8 out of 10.;)

8th February 2009
@Nautiman wrote:

Me too, make that 7 out of 10.

8th February 2009
@bonzer1again wrote:

I’m still not quite sure about it, I would guess that looking at it from down the river, from Shannon Bridge, that it would look quite impressive,with the glass front, but most people won’t really be seeing it from there, it will be as they traverse sarsfield bridge. From either direction on Sarsfield bridge it doesn’t really impress as the sides of the building are very off putting. I have one question about it though, that I hope someone can answer, will the access ramp from poormans kilkee, be able to be raised, I’m sure it must, but I haven’t seen it said anywhere.
So it’s still 7 out of 10, and Colognemike great work with the photo’s, they really are a great way to get a feel for the building!!

8th February 2009
@vkid wrote:

wasnt mad on the original but i kind of like the updated design.

8th February 2009
@gunter wrote:

Buildings at locations like this (the Boat Club) have to be either, very low key (like the existing structures), or genuinely outstanding.

I think the proposed building is quite good, but I don’t think it’s outstanding.

Are there not too many competing design ideas going on? the sloping glazed feature at one end, the old fashioned, modern movement, strip window bit (which is nautical in inspiration and I quite like) and the sloping facade panels bolted onto one side!

If there was some hierarchy in the use of these different design themes, maybe it would work better, but each or these elements is of almost equal scale and, apparently, equal importance. It looks unconvincing to me, like a car assembled using bits of a Hummer, bits of a Edsel, and an airport control tower.

I think that Nevillex2 made a very valid point earlier in saying that, given the ‘protected structure’ status of the existing buildings, the Council should have insisted on an architectural competition for any development that involved their demolition. That would have removed a huge part of the uncertainty about the architectural quality of the proposed replacement, given that the councillors decision to de-list is presumably tantamount to a grant of planning permission in this case.

I take on board CologneMike’s assertion that there’s a bigger picture here about injecting some energy and can-do into the regeneration of the city, but this is a big gamble for Limerick and one that hinges almost completely on the architecture.

Lets hope the guys in Bord Pleanála will still be on top of their game when this lands on their desk.

8th February 2009
@KeepAnEyeOnBob wrote:

I hate these mock-up renders, with their cheerful sky and carefully-shadowed development in pristine condition. It’s completely divorced from reality, where you have to put up with the thing under a grey sky, with half the building in shadow (and casting shadow), and the effects of rain/damp/pollution on the white building panels. Decent proper buildings look respectable in all conditions, even if not perhaps as flashy on a mock-up. justnotbothered is right about it being out of character.

I can understand how some people might find the concept to have some appeal – there is a nice dramatic element to the front of the building (i.e. the part facing down the Shannon) and perhaps it is possible to have that kind of development on the boat club site (certainly one can find examples in other countries) without detracting from the bridge.

However, I do not understand anyone trusting in the execution of the design, or indeed how a lot of the building would look in-situ for real. Without giving up aspirations for our region and country to improve – the track record is not good. Perhaps a comparison with Arthur’s Quay or Cruises Street isn’t fair, but I would certainly expect it to perhaps be more Clarion than Riverpoint in quality (the latter is acceptable, particularly in its location, but by no means some incredible feat of design – the former is still acceptable, but just a bit cheap-n-nasty looking with the panelling and design).

I certainly think the site is too sensitive for people to be cheerleading wildly for the development, or councillors to be so swift in removing protected status from relatively inoffensive existing buildings.

9th February 2009
@Tuborg wrote:

Originally Posted by justnotbothered

The plans are absolute rubbish, I’m old enough to remember the many promises which came with Cruises street, Arthurs Quay Shopping centre and Steamboat quay to be as easily impressed by some lego inspired rubbish flung up on the river. It’s so utterly out of character with it’s surrounds that I struggle to see how you can see any merit in it.

I think essentially that is the point. I wouldnt go as far as to say that the plans are rubbish because there are elements of this design that have some merit, namely the curved glass frontage. I dont have an issue with the loss of the existing buildings either, because in fairness they are extremely modest structures, with very little architectural significance.

Ultimately it is Sarsfield Bridge which stands to be the big loser here, the more I look at the plans, all I really see is this proposed structure basically giving the two fingers to the bridge. It just dosent pay it enough respect, the design of the bridge facing elevation isnt strong enough, it just looks like its cocking its ugly arse at it!

You really do get a sense of deja vu here. How many times have we seen proposals like this being championed as some kind of a massive leap forward for the city?

Admittedly Im not old enough to remember the development of Arthurs Quay or Cruises Street so I can only go on what I’ve read and what I’ve seen. The decision to allow the demolition of Cruises Hotel in particular was highly contentious and a huge gamble. Subsequently, the novelty of Cruises Street wore off pretty quickly and most people would agree that the city is now worse off for that decision.

I know its difficult to directly compare these two situations but there are definitely similarities all the same. We cant keep making the same mistakes over and over again and I think recent history would tell us to be very wary of this current proposal!

10th February 2009
@vitruvius wrote:

you’d swear that land in Limerick was €100m an acre! – there’s plenty of space in Limerick for (oh dear!) iconic structures without plonking one into the poor old Shannon. What about the nearby Dunnes site on Sarsfield St and that creepy park in Arthur’s quay:)

10th February 2009
@vitruvius wrote:

I know how sad it is to be replying to myself, but the though occurred to me that that park in Arthur’s quay was pushed through by the council with the same zeal as this sub Liebeskindian steamship.
And just look how that project,which was deemed necessary for Limerick turned out.
Do they have any collective memory?
Why not just leave well enough alone – let the apartment dwellers continue to sunbathe on poor man’s Kilkee.

21st February 2009
@massamann wrote:

Have to say, that even when this thread moves onto a different topic, the issue of What Are We To Build on the Boatshed? still gets stuck in my craw.

I just can’t get away from the fact that we are handing over the highest profile site in the city to a private office development. Call me a pinko lefty socialist if you like, but to me an ugly public building is still better than an identically ugly private building.

The addition of a cafe or meeting room on the ground floor of an office block just doesn’t cut it for me. It was mentioned in the thread before that wouldn’t this be a fantastic location for the city library, if it has to leave the Granary. This has the added bonus of not requiring an overly large, overly dominant structure in the middle of the river.

Much as I try to look dispassionately at what is being proposed, I don’t feel any excitement about it. And even if the designs were top drawer, Pritzker winning standard, well, short of getting a job for the tenant, I’m never going to get to see the inside of them. And I’m not sure that’s what an “iconic structure” should aspire to be…

23rd February 2009
@SuperCool wrote:

Massamann.

You’re entitled to you oppionion obviously, but to claim it’s the “highest profile site” in the city is a joke.

Be honest here.

23rd February 2009
@massamann wrote:

I’d like to believe that my opinion isn’t dishonest, it’s just DIFFERENT FROM YOURS.

It’s a site in the middle of the bridge that is the main crossing point of the Shannon into the city. From this bridge you can see the castle, the cathedral, curraghower falls, and along Sarsfield St into the commercial centre of town. There’s a picture in my parents house of this very view. Short of knocking down the castle, I can’t think of anywhere in the city that’s undeniably higher profile. Although I’m happy to hear which are the alternatives that you think are more visible.

Having said all that, I’d still be in favour of building something here. It’s just that my first choice wouldn’t be privately owned offices. And it would have to be of a higher standard than this proposal. After all, it’s not like we’re stuck for either office space or development land. There is no imperative to building here.

And if this site isn’t high profile, maybe you should mention that to the developer: it’d save him alot of money and hassle if his development relocated away from the river. But even though we may disagree on his proposal, both he and I seem to think that this site is worth having and therefore worth debating.

So what do you think? Do you think private offices on this site are a good idea?

24th February 2009
@Griff wrote:

I think its fair to say the boat club site is the highest profile site in the city – certainly its location means that it can be seen from many different vantage points – along the quays/strands and from many offices and hotels. If the building is an eyesore – and that depends on individual opinion – then its going to be the most visible eyesore in Limerick. From my point of view Sarsfield bridge is possibly the best structure we have in the city and Im very unsure if what is being proposed will be a valuable addition…