Re: Re: ‘Dutch Billys’

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@gunter wrote:

‘Transitional’ is the right term for houses that attempted to appear, more-or-less, Georgian, but which included in their design and construction significant elements of the previous gabled-house tradition. I think it is appropriate that the term implies an element of artisan head-stratching as builders grappled with the challenges of adapting modern taste to the long established building tradition that they would have been schooled in and comfortable with.

Fine, I would agree with that.

@gunter wrote:

We cannot however use the definition ‘Transitional’ for houses that have been altered to appear more Georgian

But the houses in question are not altered. They’re originals. You’re refusing to concede that even though two of the prime examples at Thomas Street and Cork Street do not appear on Rocque, 1756 (in addition to other evidence against the existence of twin gables on standard-plot houses).

@gunter wrote:

It’s been pointed out again and again that we just can’t rely on Rocque for that level of detail, and certainly not in the more crowded built-up areas like Thomas Street

Rocque it seems is inaccurate when he doesn’t suit your reading of the building :rolleyes:

From the Irish Times, April 16 2002:


The pinpoint accuracy of a map of Dublin made nearly 250 years ago has been uncannily confirmed by a major archaeological dig in the Smithfield area of the city.

“What we’ve uncovered here is Rocque’s Map of 1756,” said Ms Margaret Gowen, whose company is carrying out the excavation on behalf of the developers of a €300 million scheme planned for the west side of Smithfield.

John Rocque’s accuracy in drawing the Dublin of his day is evident from the basements and foundations of 17th-century houses and from the now-uncovered street plan of the area from the time when Smithfield was a cattle market.

Among the numerous finds on the site was a human skeleton uncovered in one of the back yards – probably someone who had been murdered, according to Ms Gowen. The excavation is expected to continue for several months.

A team of 30 archaeologists headed by Mr Franc Myles, had just found an Elizabethan coin on the four-acre site yesterday when it was toured by the Taoiseach, Mr Ahern. “It’s wonderful to see so much of our past,” he remarked.

But not for long. After the site has been fully recorded, these remnants of old Dublin will be demolished to make way for a double-basement car park as part of what the owners claim will be inner city’s “largest ever mixed-use development”.

(Nice to see our then leader Bertie rent-a-gormless-quote Ahern featured 🙂 )

@gunter wrote:

These are two glimpses of another section of Arran Quay, a bit further to the west.

a circa 1820 view possibly by Petrie. A group of the houses towards the Queen Street junction are shown with their original curvilinear gables.

Shaw again [1850]. In the thirty year interval the gabled houses have all been altered and given flat parapets.

That’s nice. It’s nice to find a probable original view of a drawn group of altered but obviously early houses. But by no means everything on Shaw goes back to a gable. The next 15 or so houses east of this group up to St. Paul’s Church are dominated by mid- and late-Georgian new-builds.

@gunter wrote:

….. comprehensive study of this period …… IMO, It would be relatively easy to categorise all the various house types in the gabled tradition

There would have to be a consesus of course ]-o-o-o-[/align]

@GrahamH wrote:

How do you explain this Devin?

Was discussed – see 3rd & 4th paragraph of post 427 following pics of the building.

@GrahamH wrote:

Almost certainly the quay was half-heartedly pulled back to more smoothly grade the streetline into the earlier Wide Streets Commission section

It’s interesting that little bits of urban pruning were still being undertaken at this time …. someone carrying the torch for the defunct Wide Streets Commsissioners. Wonder if the other buildings in the group were rebuilt altogether or just shaved back like the Bachelor Inn? In the ’80s aerial photo their plans are weirdly shallow if they were rebuilt .. then again maybe there wasn’t room to move back. So they might be Edwardian front walls with a shallow 18th century shell behind …

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