Winthrop Arcade

That would be a real shame – a loely little arcade….

I’m afraid if Cork loses this, then you can forget any credibility that this is a city with even the slightest pride in its heritage. From all I’ve read, it looks as though you ahve a City planning department that is simply in thrall to developers and has no clear vision whatsoever about how the City should look. The Council should tell this developer that possession does not imply the right to do whatever you like and there is a strong case for spot-listing all the elements in the arcade as a matter of urgency.

PS Beware the mysterious fire in the middle of the night or ‘accidental’ demolition by one of the developer’s opos.

It needs to be re-marketed, and properly promoted, not gutted and turned into yet another faceless, boring retail unit.

This is an apalling suggestion , the arcade has such potential , how anybody could advocate its destruction is completely beyond me . Surely the planning dept will reject this.

Well, having access to a pile of borrowed money doesn’t mean that you have any taste, other than in your mouth.

I’ve never seen a more ridiculous suggestion. One of the few interesting and unique things in Cork and they want to get rid of it. If I were Cork city council, I’d actually be encouraging developers to build more arcades. There’s already a precedent with the English market and whatnot, and it could really add a huge amount of charm and uniqueness to the city.

Why would you want to destroy this amount of Zone A space to create a really standard box where you’d value off Zones C + D for the majority of space?

In a good market the arcade would surely attract a premium as being a quirky building to have in one’s portfolio.

I can well understand that one may get frustrated dealing with local independents in the current climate but in the medium term this proposal would destroy a lot of value.

A pavement license for tables and a change of use to coffee operator from the CC may assist greatly in fixing the LTV

I agree with johnglas – spotlisting is called for – I cannot believe Winthrop Arcade is not protected – which would include the interiors in any case.

This is unbelievable.

This kind of suggestion makes me sick to the bone. There are only a few little gems left in our city, and if developers are allowed destroy these for any reason at all then shame on you CCC. Let’s hope the new generation of architects, planners and others involved in the structure of our city have more compassion for our city’s heritage and less want to fill their pockets. We need more protection laws and more stringent penalties where accidental fires or structure damage happens. Remember that church on Jones’ Road in Dublin that was demolished after it was ‘protected’.

How this nonsense proposal even got beyond an initian pre-planning meeting with the planners is even a bigger mystery to me.

Then again C.C.C. does not do much for the appearance of the city with some quays with fine bollards and boardwalks etc and the balance in poor states i.e. the state of the lanterns on Patricks Bridge is a disgrace.

These arcades are all over Paris and some over 100+ years old and full of little shops and artisans – this proposal is cultural vandalism.

city planners approved the monstrosity that is Victoria Cross. :eek:That tells you a lot. 😡

@ramiro wrote:

This kind of suggestion makes me sick to the bone. There are only a few little gems left in our city, and if developers are allowed destroy these for any reason at all then shame on you CCC. Let’s hope the new generation of architects, planners and others involved in the structure of our city have more compassion for our city’s heritage and less want to fill their pockets. We need more protection laws and more stringent penalties where accidental fires or structure damage happens. Remember that church on Jones’ Road in Dublin that was demolished after it was ‘protected’.

We’ve had our fair share in Cork too.

The developer’s speciality seems to be a fire that happens to destroy the building. If it wasn’t for the libel laws, I could list 7 or 8 sites that burned down in mysterious circumstances.

@jungle wrote:

We’ve had our fair share in Cork too.

The developer’s speciality seems to be a fire that happens to destroy the building. If it wasn’t for the libel laws, I could list 7 or 8 sites that burned down in mysterious circumstances.

If you say that 7 or 8 buildings burned down and that this seemed “mysterious” to you, without implying that anybody did it, I don’t think that’ll be libellous. So name away.

@rumpelstiltskin wrote:

If you say that 7 or 8 buildings burned down and that this seemed “mysterious” to you, without implying that anybody did it, I don’t think that’ll be libellous. So name away.

while i think we all sympathise with the sentiment, it’d be better to hold your counsel regarding mysterious fires.

suffice to say, we all suspect it has happened around cork and other cities.

the link below gives guidance on the issues of libel and defamation

http://www.digitalrights.ie/2006/01/06/libel-laws-in-ireland/

The John Barleycorn Hotel in Glanmire was a mysterious fire wasn’t it.

Oh dear.

The track record of planners v arcades in Dublin does not bode well, with the Grafton Arcade entirely incorporated into M&S in recent times.

I wouldn’t really compare the Grafton Arcade to this for three reasons;

1. Values; there was a lot more money on the table in Grafton Street, given the way retail was valued the entrance space lost was worth far too much money, not to mention M & S being unable to expand in any other direction. Not saying this part of Cork is cheap, but at 2% yields that part of Dublin wasn’t far off 5th Avenue levels at that time!

2. Use; the grafton Arcade featured a number of retailers who would never have renewed their leases as their were no agglomeration benefits for the mishmash of retailers who made a big mistake going there in the first place. If this recession has tought me anything it is that excluding food / craft (only in tourist meccas) use; that retail shopping centres and arcades where the units are all zone A space don’t work as service charges required to run them are disproportionate to the net rents received from an investor point of view, assuming the retailer only looks at occupancy cost and not whether its rent, rates or service charges; the costs get deducted from the rental level they are prepared to pay. However if you combine very small units as in this case and fill them with complimentary uses then you acheive a multiple minimum rent premium.

3. Aestetics, Grafton Arcade was a tired 1970’s mall with no real natural light, this in contrast is a period arcade in the vein of Paris or a less grand version of the Burlington Arcade at the end of Cork Street W1 near Old Bond Street London.

Tough times at present but if this could survive this cycle it has a Ballymaloe inspired arcade written all over it. 😀

UPDATE:

CCC have granted ‘conditional’ planning permission for this development – after some very minor modifications by way of further information.

It’s still a terrible idea!
I would imagine an appeal to ABP will be forthcoming from An Taisce who were originally opposed to this ‘development’.

This decision has been appealled to ABP by An Taisce. Result expected March 2010.

Glad to hear it

There is enough untapped development potential available in all CBDs to leave atmospheric little holdings like this untouched. When the upturn comes an arcade like this will be a great launching pad for small niche organic food and aspiring clothing designers to showcase their offers at a realistic entry level. Not to mention a great opportunity for a landlord to time lettings over a period to screw the same tenants upon rent review.

Just noticed this for the first time now.

WHY? There is no shortage of retail units in Cork city centre, if anything there’s a glut at the moment. So why knock one of the few interesting buildings left to build another featureless retail unit?

A Spanish housemate of mine recently commented she didn’t like Cork city at all; it had some nice buildings but there were too many ugly, modern, glass ‘n’ metal boxes going up all around. Very hard to disagree with her.

strange decision imo.

the submitted ‘conservation’ report presents a purely commercial conclusion.

the planner’s and conservation officer’s reports are very odd. they seem to accept the inevitability of the decision. a refusal on urban design or conservation grounds is never considered.

the NIAH rating alone should mean a straight refusal. this is a shocking decision.

I would be so annoyed if that happened.
When I came to Cork there were so many small traders, now there is only the multis like Boots and all that english/American crap.
We need small intimate spaces in the city. It needs to be promoted better, And we need to use it.
I would be totally against it. Re use it, its a beautiful place.

here here

Any update on this. such a shame if its permitted to be demolished.

A decision is expected next week, on Monday April 19. Probably won’t be published for a few days after that.

Any news on this case?

No mention of it in An Bord Pleanala’s weekly decisions list. Often they can get put back.

http://www.pleanala.ie/casenum/235328.htm

Decision: Case has been decided, details will not be available before 22-Apr-2010

Date Signed: 19/04/2010

Planning has been refused. The An Bord Pleanala decision is up on the City Council page for the file. Down at the bottom.

http://planning.corkcity.ie/InternetEnquiry/rpt_ViewApplicDetails.asp?validFileNum=1&app_num_file=0933849

From the Board’s website –

REASONS AND CONSIDERATIONS
Having regard to the nature and extent of the alterations proposed, and in particular,
the proposed complete removal of the arcade, and display areas/shop fronts forming
the same, it is considered that the proposed development would result in irrevocable
loss of the function and use of Winthrop Arcade, which though not included in the
Record of Protected Structures is highlighted on the National Inventory of
Architectural Heritage and recommended for inclusion in the same. The proposed
development would, therefore, adversely affect the built and architectural heritage of
the area, and be contrary to the proper planning and sustainable development of the
area.

An increasingly rare victory for common sense. Glad to see it.

A very important precedent re properties on the NIAH but overlooked at local level; although clearly from the entire contingent of Cork Archiseekers this building was clearly not overlooked. This is exactly the type of building the country needs to incubate the next generation of retail entrepreneurs; this is clearly a blessing for the owners; get marketing your voids; in the medium term this configuration and fit out will constitute a much more valuable investment with plenty of rental growth.

Some good news at last!