Guinness History ?

You really have to fear for James Street without Guinness as a focal point; they really have had a very stabalising influence down there and little touches like a Bank of Ireland branch would surely be lost and we’d be back to Spar, Centra and Paddy Power as per usual.

I’ve always felt the opposite; i.e. that the huge factory site has a very deadening affect on that end of town. Admittedly it’s far worse on the quay side with a high blank wall almost running the whole length of Victoria Quay than it is on the James St. side but most of the buildings on the James side are dead to the street also. The factory isn’t the relatively massive employer it once was so socially it’s loss wouldn’t be as detrimental as it would have been a few decades ago. The site would be perfectly sited for high density urban development – being near public transport (including the hub at Heuston) and also being within walking distance of the O’Connell St/Grafton St. axis. Having at least an extra 5K people living (and maybe a similar number working) on that site would be far more beneficial to the life of Thomas St/James St than Guiness is. For nostalgic reasons, you might make the case to keep features of the factory (there’s a great Willy Wonkaish view down Chesterfield Avenue) or have them maintain a small craft brewery there or something but I can only see benefits on all sides by having the factory moved to an industrial zone and replaced with urban residential, retail and office development.

The funny thing is that the brewing, actually making the beer, only employs a few hundred people; marketing, etc, many more. I t would be suprising if they got rid of the whole site, but equally suprising if they didn’t get rid of most of it.

the site has no future as a brewery, it’s the western city equivalent of the Port. Poeple will disagree and oppose the move, but it will happen in the next 15 years in my opinion. This is part of the Heuston gateway and will be subject to the same type of high density mixed use development that we’ve seen elsewhere when the framework plan is inevitably reviewed.

Breo Tower anyone? Arthur Square? Blackstuff Boulevard? and the whole development will have the music from the famous ad piped thorughout at all times… it’ll be great. Imagine living in 1759 Guinness Street. It’d be fckin amazin!!! Black lower floor with flat creamy roofs! ah yes i can see it now… off to copyright this paragraph 🙂

My impression was that Guinness did not own the site, but had been granted a lease at a nominal value… is it theirs to sell?

its a 999 year lease – i seem to recall from the storehouse

It would be curtains for Guinness in the overcrowded Dublin beer market if this happens. No crusty oul fella worth his salt would entertain a barstool conversation on the merits of Balbriggan water, they would no doubt claim that old chestnut that stout doesn’t travel well!

they can pipe the liffey to Balbriggan via the Port Tunnel and M1

the framework plan, as it stands:

http://www.dublincity.ie/Images/GNS_GUINNESS%20UDV%20LANDS_A_tcm35-13635.pdf
http://www.dublincity.ie/Images/GNS_GUINNESS%20UDV%20LANDS_B_tcm35-13636.pdf

Big Breweries in London have also closed down but none as famous as “the brewery”. However I would think that many of the older buildings are Protected Structures anyway so would have to be worked into any scheme. The Storehouse would also be unaffected as Id say that is a good money spinner.

If the redevelopment of the that whole area produces something as lifeless and uninspired as that found around the Meath / Cork / Ardee St area then why bother

So the word on the grapevine is that Uncle Arthur is to be the first major industry at the proposed new port at Bremore and this will unleash one of the largest/valuable brown field urban sites in Europe. The implications for the city of Dublin will be mega.

The redevelopment of Saint James’ Gate site will finally make Heuston a city centre station. I think this is the biggest thing since the IFSC in terms of the impact it’ll have on the city of Dublin. No more trying not to be killed by HGVs at the traffic lights while trying to get a train anymore.

Surprised this didn’t happen years ago.

It is an opportunity to sort out Victoria Quay for sure.

What concerns me is James’ St administrations buildings and assembled tourist circus.

The real fear here is that Diageo moves all production to Bremore and all admin to London other than local sales reps and a localisation marketing group of 5 or so people.

One cannot underestimate the positive influence Guinness has been since 1950; just compare this stretch with Cork or Prussia Sts.

yep, ‘get yourself a guinness man’ thats how it used be, best pay & conditions around for a long time.

guinness is considering selling its st.james gate site,to move outside the city.the site is said to be worth several billion euro,can you imagine this 64 acres of free land in the heart of dublin!!!

It’s not worth anything close to a billion euro.

Diageo treads carefully on James’s Gate
02 September 2007
By Samantha McCaughren, Business Correspondent / Sunday Business Post

The forthcoming review of the Guinness brewery at St James’s Gate in Dublin will take full account of the ‘‘magic and history’’ of the brewery and will not be dictated by property prices, according to Michael Ioakimides, managing director of Diageo Ireland.

‘‘This is not about property prices,” Ioakimides said.

‘‘There are a lot more important considerations than just that. There’s a lot of magic captured in St James’s Gate, and this is something that we absolutely take into consideration in the review that we’re undertaking.”

The review has sparked concerns that some, or all, of the landmark brewery will be sold off. Ioakimides declined to rule out the possibility of land at St James’s Gate being put on the market, but he said that the firm would continue to invest in its Irish operations.

‘‘We have four brewing assets on this island – some of them have been around for up to 250 years. And to be strong for the next 250 years, we have investment behind them.

‘‘If you go out and say we’re making this investment review and already we can tell you X, Y and Z, that is the wrong thing to do. Because when you announce an investment review, the best thing to do is announce it, make sure you don’t allow speculation to take place, and go back with the right decision made six months later. And that’s what we’re planning to do.”

Guinness sales fell by 7 per cent in Ireland in the year to June, but Ioakimides said that sales had been growing in recent months for the first time in three years.

if there’s anyone you can trust with the legacy of the pint o’ plain, it has to be the obviously true blue Dub, Mr. Ioakimides, or Ioako as he was known . Sure wasn’t he reared on the black stuff, so Mick was! Ah no. I kid…

but bear in mind the Heuston Gateway framework plan certainly envisages development on the Guinness lands to some extent.

“Irish” Guinness – The False But Lucrative Identity

Somebody sent me this on the email today. It’s common knowlege that Guinness is an English invention, but this article helps to fill in the gaps. Interesting read 🙂

Arthur Guinness first began to brew porter in 1778, and would eventually stop brewing ale in 1799. Arthur was inspired by a London brewer, named Harwood. Harwood developed a brew which he called “Entire” that used roast barley and high temperatures in the brewing process. The dark brew was a favorite drink among the street porters of Covent Garden, London, who drank it for its high iron content. The drink was nicknamed “porter” and was soon exported to Ireland. The St. James’s Gate brewery would develop several types of porter, eventually introducing the word “stout” to describe its versions of porter. Arthur was strongly influenced by an English brewer, but also had other critical connections to England.

The one aspect of Arthur’s life which makes the most compelling case against the claim of his Irish identity would be Arthur’s political allegiance. Arthur, like many members of the elite minority, was closely aligned with the forces of English colonialism. Arthur was directly opposed to any movement toward Irish Independence, and wanted Ireland to remain under English control.

After Arthur Guinness retired from the brewery, his son, also named Arthur, assumed control. Along with sharing the same name, the two had similar political outlooks. In the general election of 1835, the second Arthur Guinness not only opposed Daniel O’Connell, but seriously considered running against him. O’Connell fought for the repeal of the Act of Union, and therefore the independence of Ireland. Arthur Guinness voted against him, and continued with the Guinness loyalty to English rule.

Benjamin Lee Guinness (1798-1868), Arthur’s son, took full control of the brewery after his father’s death in 1855. Around this time, he purchased what was then worth between £20,000 and £30,000 worth of land in County Mayo. He would also later buy a luxurious estate in Ashford, County Galway. Benjamin purchased this land during the years surrounding the massive starvation in Ireland. He was an extremely wealthy man who possessed the ability to aid evicted and starving farmers, but opted instead to exploit a prime investment opportunity in real estate.

Benjamin also entered politics by being elected Lord Mayor of Dublin in 1851. In 1865, he was elected within the Conservative interest to the Irish Parliament. And naturally, he was a strong Unionist. Referring to nationalists, he stated: “Those wicked and worthless adventurers who would not only deprive our country of the advantages which, as a part of the British Empire, we enjoy, but who would overturn all the social arrangements of society.”

Following Benjamin’s death in 1868, the brewery was transferred to his two sons, Arthur Edward and Edward Cecil (1847-1927). Edward continued the same political outlook as his father. During a time of optimistic Irish nationalism, Edward used his position as High Sheriff of Dublin to assist in the organization of the state visit of the Prince of Wales, later Edward VII. In 1886, Edward Cecil made Guinness a public company to be quoted on the London stock market. The decision therefore placed Guinness as an English company. He chose Baring Brothers as his merchant bank, and the company floated for £6 million. The most remarkable aspect of the deal was the favoritism showed toward the wealthy elite. Shares of the company were hoarded by the rich, which left the public little opportunity to invest. Although the event was then legal, it led to vast public criticism.

Edward Cecil divided control of the brewery between three sons, with Rupert Edward (1874-1967) succeeding him as the Chairman of the company. Rupert won a seat during the General Election of 1906, as another Conservative Guinness who opposed Home Rule. Soon after this, members of the Guinness family spoke in the House of Commons to recommend the execution of the leaders of the 1916 rising, an event that clearly revealed the family’s long held political beliefs.

Throughout history, the ownership of Guinness is unable to claim any true connection to Ireland. It is more accurate to state that the beliefs of Guinness ownership have always been anti-Irish. This point becomes more evident through the examination of the Guinness workforce.

The Guinness workforce was segregated from the very beginning. For most of its history, Guinness management has been dominated by the Protestant minority of Ireland. Catholic workers were barred from holding a management position. In fact, it was not until the 1960s that a Catholic worker entered management, after facing strong opposition. In other words, over 200 years had passed since the signing of the lease at St. James’s Gate brewery before a Catholic was allowed promotion to a management position.

Today, the structure of the Guinness workforce is less driven by the apartheid system of sectarianism. It is now more controlled by the agenda of corporate capitalism. Workers at the brewery are less likely to be oppressed due to their religious beliefs, but now face being victims of a rationalization plan. The effects of the Guinness family’s allegiance to British rule have been replaced by the effects of the ownership of the Diageo corporate group.

The effects of the Diageo ownership became clear in July 2000, when Guinness announced plans to close the brewing and packaging plants in Dundalk, located just north of Dublin. This was the first Guinness plant closing ever to occur in Ireland. The closing eliminated over 300 jobs in a small community, as management justified the move as part of plan to remain globally competitive.

The famous brewery at St. James’s Gate has also seen tremendous change. Many departments that once existed at St. James’s Gate have been moved to the Park Royal brewery in West London, which has long been considered the headquarters of Guinness. As Guinness now operates breweries in several countries, Irish workers presently form a minority of the Guinness operation.

Not all areas of the St. James’s Gate brewery have faced reduction. The tourist facility at the brewery has recently received tremendous investment. In 2000, the £32 million Guinness Storehouse was opened at St. James’s Gate brewery. The Storehouse invites visitors to experience the history and wonders of Guinness Stout by exploring a Guinness museum, enjoying Guinness at the Gravity Bar, and purchasing Guinness merchandise at the retail shop.

Around the same time as the opening of the Guinness Storehouse, talk began of a possible move from St. James’s Gate. The Diageo management is still considering moving the brewing operation from St. James’s Gate to a location just outside of Dublin, in order to improve the efficiency of distribution. Brewing would completely cease at the site, leaving behind only one responsibility at St. James’s Gate, the production of marketing messages by the Guinness Storehouse.

This is not to say that St. James’s Gate brewery would no longer be an essential part of Guinness, as the brand image production of Guinness is very important to the company. This tradition dates back to April 5, 1862, when the O’Neill harp, (an icon of Irish history that has been associated with Nationalist movements), was chosen as the Guinness trademark. From that time through to recent promotions that gave away Irish pubs to Americans on St. Patrick’s Day, Guinness has always invested heavily in portraying an Irish image to particular markets.

So, should Guinness be involved in St. Patrick’s Day and other Irish celebrations? Absolutely, but it should be used as a point in conversation to better understand the events of Irish history. This would be a great improvement on the more popular activity of merely contributing to a legacy of inequality and greed.

May as well move the operation out and retain office & storehouse presence at James gate. All it is at the moment is a modern plant with a haulage depot attached (which is probably too large for it’s optimal usage anyway) – it’s not the romantic place of the past with the coopeage, barges and master brewers in white coats and bowler hats – it’s more akin to a chemical factory.

Get over it and free up this development land, after all does Jameson taste any worse after leaving Smithfield? Is it any less Irish?

Romantic Guinness is dead and gone and with Brendan Behan in the Grave

Regarding the interesting critique that Morlan provided, it is in fairness a bit one-sided. True that during British rule the Guinness’s were staunch unionists, and also that work practices at the plant were predisposed to promotion of protestants over catholics. However that is not the whole story. I think to balance, it’s worth bearing in mind some of what the Guinness family have given to the city and country, both then and now which IMO marked them out one of the more benevolent families, even if it was then (1880s>) in line with the then Tory policy of “Killing Home Rule with Kindness”, or today where family members have continued to make a good contribution to Irish society.

One example albeit a little known fact is that today family members are still involved voluntarily in running as a benevolent trust the Iveagh Trust buildings at Bride St, Ross Street, and Kevin St. Like all families, different members have different interests, but it is notable that there is a common theme of cultural contribution to the wider society; Rupert has a steam museum open to the public at Straffan, Garech de Brun leaves his estate at Lugalla open for public to walk to Lough Dan, while Desmond with his then wife Mariga were key to resurrecting the IGS, and both documenting and saving shed loads of Georgian buildings. Those saved included Tailors’ Hall, strategic interventions such as Mountjoy Square, while Castletown House was in the process of being acquired so as to be used as hardcore for road building. (With Castletown, it was only relatively recently that Desmond sold it to the state at effectively cost-price; this at a time when others may have simply tried to profit from developing the grounds, such as what happened at Carton).

If one goes back a few generations to the Victorian period it’s worth noting that St. Stephen’s Green was only reopened to the public in 1877 at both the initiative and the expense of A.E. Guinness, (who lived at St. Anne’s, Raheny and at Ashford Castle). A.E. G. also paid for laying out the Green in approximately its current form, which took place in 1880, and gave it to the Corporation as representatives of the people. By way of thanks the city commissioned a statue of him which faces the College of Surgeons.

A.E.’s brother Edward lived at Iveagh House, which in 1939 his descendants gave in to the Irish Department of Foreign Affairs; matching the House is of course another wonderful park, The Iveagh Gardens.

And then there was the slum clearance of what were then some of Dublin’s most notorious slums on Patrick St/ Bride St – and where today stands the Iveagh Trust Buildings, thus bringing my points full circle to where I began. So while there may be validity to the points made in the above thesis, and perhaps other negative points too such as how Guinness’s invented the armoured car in 1916 assisting the Brits to defeat the rebels, I think the above piece left without context does that family an injustice…Hope I haven’t banged on too much 🙂

Interesting. Thanks for that hutton.

Incidently, Michael Jackson just bought the Lugalla estate for 20m!
http://www.rte.ie/arts/2007/0919/Jacksonm.html

…marking the end of ramblers’ access, one would imagine.

I wonder will he be rebuilding Neverland there?

@Paul Clerkin wrote:

its a 999 year lease – i seem to recall from the storehouse

I think I remember a 9000 lease myself.

The best drink in Ireland, tis the Guinness!

Fair play to Arthur, Leixlip and the Liffey.

@GregF wrote:

The best drink in Ireland, tis the Guinness!

Fair play to Arthur, Leixlip and the Liffey.

But only when purchased IN guinness!

As an occasional guinness drinker i find the quality to be mostly poor, occasionally excellent, with not much in between

Went to Storehouse recently – poor pint, had a better one in the Lord Edward afterwards – fair point though the consistancy of quality in Guinness has really gone to pot in this country. I blame cold flow and poorly trained bar staff meself

@ctesiphon wrote:

I wonder will he be rebuilding Neverland there?

I have a joke somewhere in me with Jackson, black stuff, cream coloured head, surgery, and Bubbles in it, but I can’t quite get the structure

Guinness- Michael Jackson style?

Nice one ctesiphon. I assume that the glass is plastic?
KB

that’s breo. Remember that?

.

Uh… it’s like… did anyone see the movie ‘Tron’?

Just a little historical note on Guinness’s, Arthur bought an already established brewery in James’s St and its original name was the Pheonix brewery.

Guinness has been a British company since the 1920s in reality (whatever about setting up in Britain originally). DeValera’s economic policies saw to that.

I’m on a few online survey panels and just took some market research on behalf of diegeo.
The options they gave were:
– Consolidating all their brewing at James’ Gate
– Moving all lager brewing to james’ gate but moving the guinness brewing to the outskirts of dublin somewhere
– [not 100% sure about this one] moving lager to james’ gate and guinness somewhere else

The questions were mostly opinion based question on what you thought of the idea, etc, but also concerned whether on not you’d be likely to stop drinknig guinness temporarily, permenantly, and if so, what brands you’d swtich to.

Anyone know what they’re planning, exactly?

[edit] there were actually a few very similar options, phrased in differnent ways, it’s hard to know exactly whats going on :))

Why don’t they move the lager brewing to somewhere else and keep making guinness in James’s Gate?

I don’t think Budweiser drinkers really care what they’re drinking.

@Blisterman wrote:

Why don’t they move the lager brewing to somewhere else and keep making guinness in James’s Gate?

I don’t think Budweiser drinkers really care what they’re drinking.

I don’t think Budweiser drinkers know what they’re drinking!

Ship out the lot and redevelop, the romantic view of Guinness is long dead

@Blisterman wrote:

Why don’t they move the lager brewing to somewhere else and keep making guinness in James’s Gate?

I don’t think Budweiser drinkers really care what they’re drinking.

Agree with you Blisterman!
Anyone seen some of the dives that have been built form Mounbrown all the way up to James st in the last 10 years?
I somehow feel that any redevelopment in that area of D8 is just going to follow suit with this tacky stuff……if that is so, I’d prefer to have Guinness’s remain where it is to brew Guinness exclusively……….I must be a romantic; I think the stout would taste differently if made elsewhere. 😉

a new wavy green roof?