the second redevelopment of ballsbridge

An interesting development. Like them or loathe them, Carrisbrook and Lansdowne are distinctive landmarks in Ballsbridge.

Often thought it a pity that the virtues of both buildings couldn’t have been combined, with the cladding of Lansdowne and the striking shape of Carrisbrook. Instead, Lansdowne’s shape is ugly, while the cladding on the other horribly dirty and cluttered looking.

I wonder about the likelihood of Sam’s Institute of Advanced Studies being meddled with, espcially as there’s a modern house or two next door…

Nooo!

Carrisbrook is one of my favourite buildings in the city, though for very personal, subjective reasons- I collect hexagonal objects. It’s one of the few perfectly regular (i.e. equal side lengths) hexagonal buildings in the country.

Agreed that the cladding leaves a bit to be desired, but I don’t think the building itself is all that bad, at least from a cityscape point of view. And I do like the way it turns the corner- the hexagon actually has a practical purpose beyond the quirky in this case. More importantly, I suspect it’s at the upper limit of acceptable heights for the neighbourhood, if not a shade over the maximum in some people’s eyes already. I suppose the acquisition of the adjoining petrol station will provide sufficient room to expand.

Judging from the article, the market doesn’t like the building as much as I do. I wonder, though, where this opinion originated- “that never worked very well”. Perhaps my beloved 60 degree angles really are less suitable for offices than the more boring 90 degrees?

🙁

Israeli embassy’s in the hexagonal one..I dunno how they plan to move them on (I wonder, is their floor Israeli territory?). Once the Israeli authorities “occupy” a space, I think we all know that it can be tough to shift ’em.. :p

@ctesiphon wrote:

Nooo!

Agreed that the cladding leaves a bit to be desired, but I don’t think the building itself is all that bad, at least from a cityscape point of view. And I do like the way it turns the corner- the hexagon actually has a practical purpose beyond the quirky in this case.

The American Embassy works in a similar fashion I think. It’s not hexagonal of course but it seems to bring the two roads together.

Judging from the article, the market doesn’t like the building as much as I do. I wonder, though, where this opinion originated- “that never worked very well”. Perhaps my beloved 60 degree angles really are less suitable for offices than the more boring 90 degrees?
🙁

It is interesting the way some journalists will just spout out their opinions about a building as though it is a fact.

@phil wrote:

It is interesting the way some journalists will just spout out their opinions about a building as though it is a fact.

Aye.
At least I had the good grace to admit my subjectivity. 😉

If the replacement building preserved a hexagonal quality – a corner tower or something – I’d be inclined to support this proposal. I often wondered if the Israeli Embassy chose to locate there precisely because the building was hexagonal- Star of David and all that.

Side note: a few years ago I was taking photos of this building early one weekday morning and a uniformed Garda approached me, accompanied by a bearded middle eastern man in a heavy trench coat. The coat was an internal security officer for the embassy who was trying to get the Guard to stop me from taking pictures. When I showed my Duchas ID and gave a cover story about recording buildings for a survey (a fib in that case, but it was my job at the time), the Guard told the coat he had nothing to worry about, then turned back to me, gave me a conspiratorial wink and threw his eyes to heaven- ‘paranoia’ seemed to be the message he was conveying. But that was in the late 1990s- more innocent times, you might say.

@ctesiphon wrote:

I often wondered if the Israeli Embassy chose to locate there precisely because the building was hexagonal- Star of David and all that.

Good observation. Sometimes these things are by pure chance though, aren’t they?

The changes to the perimiter of the American Embassy over the last twenty or so years tells an interesting story in and of itself.

Maybe they could go for a range of hexagonal buildings on the site, if the space allows. It would be reminiscent of the Giant’s Causeway.

I am delighted to see Carrisbrook House on the block; it is absolute filth and the sooner as it’s dated and bland cladding is sent for recycling the better. It would be hard not to make better land use than what is already there; i.e. very very poor site coverage at a very well connected location.

The one I don’t understand from the article is Franklin House it is on the building line and actually quite a good building internally.

Can Hume House go next please?

at this rate the most important accessory for any car journey in Dublin is going to be a spare can of petrol

wearnicehats. you’re bloody right. They;re closing all over the inner suburbs. Ah sure we won’t need them when the oil runs out and we’re all baitin around in Metros and Luases/Luai

There is a very good reason for these stations closing.

Petrol stations are valued on throughput i.e. if you sell 6000 litres per week you get 20c per litre on an annualised basis whereas if you sell 20,000 litres per week you get 30c per litre again on an annualised basis.

The real profit in petrol stations is not the fuel but the ancillary sales such as grocery, confectionary and the real jam comes from revnues derived from car-washes and the leasehold interests on McDonalds outlets etc. For about 15 years the trend has been for 1 acre sites by the major distribution companies who have been happy to dispose of stations like this one as well as others like the Shell stations at Harcourt Road and Bride Street.

When you combine the business case together with the reality that many stations tended to have sprung up in the 1960’s in the more affluent areas the land pull basically ensures game over for all but a few stations inside the M50.

Would love to think that we will all be running around on rail in the near future but I am not holding my breath and that is why higher densities are required where there is existing rail and QBC infrastructure. The key is to balance the needs of the City to accomodate growth with the amenities of the areas which created that demand in the first instance.

@PVC King wrote:

………the real jam comes from revnues derived from car-washes ………..

Spot on. I once heard that the Shell garage on the Stillorgan Road held (may still hold?) the Shell national record. In the St. Stephen’s Green Centre the most profitable units are ………the toilets, with huge returns per sq.ft.
KB2

I’m hoping for a ‘flatiron’ type buliding on the carrisbrook site
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Clash of the titans over developer plans for D4

DANIEL McCONNELL

DUBLIN City Council and a clutch of millionaire property developers who have paid record prices for sites in the heart of Dublin 4 are on a collision course on the issue of how to best realise the area’s development potential.

In its new Local Area Plan for Ballsbridge, Dublin City Council has laid down an impressive marker for the future of the area: it is allowing for 10-storey buildings – but only at the most central points of the development.

This is far short of the 30-storey expectations of some developers, including Sean Dunne, who purchased the Jurys site last year.

Dublin City Council said its duty is to ensure the development of the area is in keeping with the surrounds, and city planners are yet to be convinced that 30-storey developments are in the best interests of this largely residential area.

“The key to the plan is integration. We want Ballsbridge to lead the way in terms of high-density development, but that can only be achieved properly if all aspects and outcomes of the development are considered,” said city planner Dick Gleeson.

An indication of how serious the issue has become for the developers can be gauged by the fact that Sean Dunne postponed the public launch of his proposed 32-storey building for the landmark Dublin 4 site last week. He has apparently now decided to go back to planners and it could be April before the massive development is launched.

Some “iconic” developments will be allowed tobe double the size of adjoining buildings which could see them stretch as high as 16 storeys, but Gleeson said such buildings would have to offer something “stunning” in order to get the go-ahead.

“It would have to be something very special. If you are asking people to bend their heads and look upwards, then they would need to be looking at something incredible. The iconic buildings will have to be all-encompassing and will be judged not only on design but on all aspects of how they would interact with their surrounds,” Mr Gleeson added.

Because of the Jurys/Berkeley Court hotel complex, Ballsbridge has so far largely escaped the enormous redevelopment seen in other areas of the city. But in the next 12 to 24 months that giant will most certainly be woken up by a handful of big developers who have, in some cases, paid €90m an acre for land in the plush suburb.

The Berkeley Court andJurys Ballsbridge hotels are to close in mid-August in the aftermath of this year’s Horse Show at the nearby RDS. Property mogul Sean Dunne, who is married to Dublin socialite and former journalist Gayle Killilea, will assume control from the Doyle family in early September but as yet his final plans are not known.

Dunne and Killilea are seen as one of Ireland’s most glamorous couples and regularly feature in the newspapercolumns.

Bernie Gallagher, the head of the Doyle family’s interests, raised a few eyebrows when she sold the site of the Berkeley Court, the jewel in the crown of the hotel empire of her father, PV Doyle. Sean Dunne paid a whopping €380m to secure the location. He had previously proposed constructing a 32-storey building on the site, but that has been strongly opposed by local interest groups.

Early indications of his initial 32-storey plan showed that, in order to make a profit, he would need to fetch over a million each for the apartments he intended to build – which left even hardened property experts wondering how he was going to work such a miracle.

But Dunne is not the only one with high ambitions for Ballsbridge. In the last 12 months, the jockeying for supremacy in Dublin 4 has heated up, with a number of big players claiming their stake. And some of these other purchases make the Dunne purchase of the Jurys site value for money.

Maynooth-based developer Ray Grehan paid a total of €171.5m for the site of the former UCD Veterinary College; that is, Grehan’s company, Glenkerrin Homes, paid €83m-an-acre for the 2.05- acre site. but even this was eclipsed by low-key developer David Daly of Albany Homes who last summer paid €25m for the five-storey Franklin House on Pembroke Road. The small site is on only one-fifth of an acre, but it reflects a value of almost €135m per acre.

At the end of last month, it emerged that a consortium of developers headed up by Bernard McNamara and Gerry O’Reilly paid €46m to gain control of Carrisbrook House, an ill-fitting eight-storey carbuncle across the road from the Jurys site, which will be demolished to make way for an expanded development.

The consortium has also bought into the neighbouring petrol station, as well as paying €36m for a faculty building on Shelbourne Road.

McNamara has also purchased a separate property opposite Jurys Hotel on Pembroke Road.

But there is more to come with the expected sale of Lansdowne House following the relocation of the Department of Finance to Tullamore, Co Offaly in the summer.

So, with the activity hotting up and with a clear collision of ideas opening up, Ballsbridge is set to be the subject of much talk in the weeks ahead.

Irish Independent

Do you think Se

I dont know how (or why) the height could be reduced given the huge sum he forked over
Of course local interest groups will object,
the name ‘local interest group‘ pretty much sums it up

paul h I dont know how (or why) the height could be reduced given the huge sum he forked over

The consideration paid by Sean Dunne to the Doyle Family is entirely irrelivant in the context of the proper planning and sustainable development of the area. For Dunne it was an audacious gamble that if he were allowed to bring Barbican scale to the Knightsbrige of Dublin that he would clean up by securing €2-5m for the best real estate in the City. It appears that DCC won’t play ball and he could now be left holding a very expensive site unless he secures a couple of very large office lettings above where office rents are now he may live to regret this purchase.

‘Site acquisition at the right price is the key to successful property development’

According to Brian Hughes DIT

Roof-line sets a maximum height for the profile of set-back floors. A single set-back storey of 3m (±0.5m) may be permitted on buildings with four-storey frontage. Two set-back storeys, amounting to 6m (±1m) in total, may be permitted on buildings of greater height. Set-back storeys are permissible if it is demonstrated by applicants that they do not impact on the daylighting of the street, i.e. through sunpath studies. They must be set back minimum 1.5m from the building line to mitigate their visual impact. The roof profile should provide a rich and varied roofscape, and therefore it is recommended that they incorporate at maximum 12m intervals either a change in height of minimum 1m or a change in setback depth of minimum 1m. The architectural treatment of the setback storey can incorporate roof pitches and materials distinct from the elevational treatment.

Shoulder-line defines the required level of the façade parapet, and is set at different continuous heights in different parts of the study area in response to existing building heights. This shoulder line is key to providing continuity and enclosure to the street. Where a set-back floor is provided, a balustrade may be added in this plane provided it is of open construction and does not continue the main elevation treatment above the parapet. So the overall general height will be capped at 23m with the taller buildings being capped at 32-32m

Base-line marks the transition from the more public ground-and first-floor to the more contained residential and commercial floors above. The base-line is set at
5m (±1m) over grade for buildings of a façade height of four storeys, equivalent to ground floor height; and at 8m (±1m) over grade for all taller buildings, corresponding to ground and first floor height taken together. This part of the elevation should be characterised by continuous active frontage, with double-height shop fronts where appropriate.

The Local Area Plan stipulates a general shoulder height of 20m, rising to 26m (±1m), equivalent to eight residential storeys, is acceptable on specific parcels at the junction of Pembroke Road and Lansdowne Road, and represents no net increase on the established urban scale at this location.

if you look at th elocal area plan, it is allowable to have a blanket coverage of 23m across the Jurys site with 33m at the corner. The plan makes no mention of buildings double the height of those adjacent.

The plan also sets out building lines for the sites – effectively carving up the sites – which they state are “non-negotiable”

It’s actually a worthwhile read and all available free at

http://www.dublincity.ie/press_news/news/notice_of_proposed_draft_local_area_plan_for_ballsbridge.asp

The crucial thing for Dunne and the developers on larger sites will not only be the height but also the plot ratio that they will be allowed to acheive.

The consideration paid by Sean Dunne to the Doyle Family is entirely irrelivant in the context of the proper planning and sustainable development of the area.

Your dead right pvc king. Its his own tough s**t that he paid out that much.
Its just sometimes the local interest groups bug me, putting the kibosh on too many projects

There are office buildings immediately opposite the Dunne site that are eight storeys plus and were constructed in the 1970s and 1980s (as far as I know). I think that in the time that has since elapsed we should be willing to construct higher buildings, a minimum of 10 storeys with two set back would be appropriate I think.

@paul h wrote:

Your dead right pvc king. Its his own tough s**t that he paid out that much.
Its just sometimes the local interest groups bug me, putting the kibosh on too many projects

gentlemen like Mr Dunne don’t lose money that often. It will be interesting to follow this over the coming year and see how he plays it.

The land value in the area has more than doubled since he bought the site, I think he’ll do quite well out of it. I know what agents think the apartments will fetch per square foot and it’s a lot higher than was previously thought.

Anecdotal evidence is that land values have risen in the vicinity; however all the other sites are much smaller lot sizes and some have special site attributes which simply don’t translate to the subject site.

I would have a lot more faith if this was Hardwicke or Green Property or even Gerry O’Reilly who all have solid track records in commercial development. I think that Dunne is well out of his depth on this and that his initial play to introduce an over-scaled residential complex to this site were fundamentally flawed. On a max of ten residential floors the plot ratio will kill the residential amentiy unless at least 20 sq m of balcony is provided per unit.

As you well know Grehan is proposing a mainly office scheme which no doubt will be at a much more realistic scale than that of Dunne’s; Grehan’s site also has a much closer relationship to Hume House the obscuring of which has no doubt been a planning objective for this area for a very long time.

The other transactions you refer to I am guessing relate to

1. Carrisbrooke House which has a special situation in that it is much more suited to a landmark building that can be viewed from at least three views and the site is small enough to ensure that it is not bulky.

2. The Franklin House purchase was sheer lunacy given the fact that it is semi-detached to a terrace of protected structures and virtually opposite the US embassy who’s views were no doubt reflected by Bernard McNamara’s redevelopment of the ACCA building 2 doors from the Embassy.

I find it interesting that you attempt to argue the Burlington land value as lessor as being ‘at least €75m per acre’ which appears very light given the quality of occupier that Treasury attracted for their Burlington Road Scheme plus the sheer scarcity of uber prime development sites anywhere in D2/D4 at present.

There is no doubt that land values in prime D4 have accelerated dramatically in recent quarters but in my opinion it is the hangover of 9% stamp duty on commercial property wearing off as opposed to one man trying to waste a prime office i.e. employment generating site as opposed to an application for residential towers that would never clear planning that is driving Ballsbridge land values.

Grehan’s scheme will have around 100 apartments from what I understand and is planning a tower on his site, Dunne’s will have more residential but from what I understand is more mixed use – substantial amount of leisure and retail, some offices. I was also referring to the Faculty Building at e95 million an acre. Dunne’s swap on Hume House also suggested a deal of e100 million plus.
There is a question as to whether the US Embassy can object to anything as it is technically foreign territory

Sean Dunne’s Jurys site plans rejected
Monday, 14 May 2007 19:05
Developer Sean Dunne’s plans for the Jurys Hotel site in Ballsbridge have been rejected by local councillors.

This evening the South East area committee voted to reject the draft area plan which would have allowed high density commercial and residential construction.

A number of councillors queried whether city officials – in agreeing the plan – were faciltating the huge price paid for the site by Mr Dunne.

AdvertisementHe was reported to have paid a total of €260m for the site, which works out at €50m an acre.

No real surprise there

Council blocks Dunne high-rise project
From The Irish IndependentTuesday, 12th June, 2007
PLANS by developer Sean Dunne to build Ireland’s first skyscraper in Dublin 4 have been dramatically shot down.

Dublin city councillors last night rejected outright a local area plan (LAP) for Ballsbridge that would have given the Carlow businessman the go-ahead to build a 20-storey apartment complex on the Jury’s Hotel site.

Following a highly-charged debate where officials were accused of pandering to developers, all councillors bar one voted not to approve the plan, which called for ‘landmark’ buildings between 10 and 20 storeys to be allowed.

The decision will come as a bitter blow to developers, including Mr Dunne, Ray Grehan of Glenkerrin Homes and Bernard McNamara, who have spent millions acquiring land in the south Dublin suburb.

Upwards of €50m an acre have been spent acquiring some sites.

A spokesman for Mr Dunne’s Mountbrook Homes said last night that the company would “consider its options”.

“The site we have (Jury’s / Berkerley Court) now reverts to the zoning it had when we bought it. In the light of the rejection of the proposed rezoning, we will consider that going forward,” the spokesman said.

But planning sources said last night that the decision to reject the plan might not stop high-rise developments in the area.

A developer could still apply to build high-density tall buildings, and if a decision by the council to reject the application was appealed to An Bord Pleanala, the board might approve it given the area’s close proximity to the city centre and good public transport links.

The draft local area plan voted down last night proposed increasing the zonings in the area to facilitate intensive development, and would allow ‘district landmark’ buildings of up to 20 storeys be constructed – two-and-a-half times the height of the tallest buildings already in the area.

The plan was put out on public display for three months and there were 266 submissions from the public.

However, councillors were very vocal in their opposition, with not one councillor expressing support for the plan.

The Labour group said it would apply the party whip compelling all its councillors to reject the plan, with claims made that the LAP was drawn up to facilitate developers.

“On behalf of the Fine Gael group we reject this in full,” Cllr Gary Breen said.

“We’re being asked to sign a blank cheque. This is the planning process in reverse, we’re not responsible for the folly of a developer.”

Fianna Fail’s Michael Donnelly added there was ‘no option’ but to reject the plan given local opposition. His party colleague Deirdre Heney abstained from the vote.

It will be interesting to see the next move on this one!

It would also be interesting to learn who was ‘The Planning Source’