A Nation at War with its Capital City?
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- November 2, 2006 at 1:29 am #709004
Cute Panda
Participantand urban living and culture in general.
Was just reading David MacWilliams’ piece in the Indo today and you do have to wonder if there has been a political and cultural war against Dublin and urban dwellers in general in this country since the foundation of the state.
Much of it is rooted in Dev-ism, but it is really amazing how after all these years it still goes on. Polticians particulary in the West of Ireland consider Dublin to be a panecea for every problem west of the Shannon. For instance, I recently heard Dr Gerry Crowley MEP blaming the high deaths on the roads in Mayo on poor workmanship on the road repairs in the county. But he then instantly corrected himself by stressing it was not the local Mayo CoCo poor workmanship, but “the Dublin Government”. If one looks in the rural media this kind of political ‘magical thinking’ is repreated constantly. Just blame it all on the “Dublin Government” and make sure all the investment, factories, airports, civil servants is sent to rural regions and Ireland will be a paradise.
The David McWillians article today demonstrated how dangerous this anti-urbaism is for the health and well being of nations. From Uraguary to China to Ireland it hasn’t worked anywhere in fact – it has failed appallingly. Cities move nations forward, always have and always will.
I would go as far as saying that the 70 years of neglect, and at times, outright contempt for our nation’s capital was mirrored nationally by the decades of both urban and rural poverty as well as social, economic and cultural (it was Thin Lizzy, The Boomtown Rats, U2 who put Ireland on the global musical map and not Big Tom, Margo and Brendan Boyer) stagnation which all of Ireland experienced experience between 1930 and 1990. The “fair maidens dancing” didn’t deliver for any of the Irish people and the disturbing thing is the “crossroads” is still top of the Irish political agenda when one considers millions being spent on the Western Rail Corridor which will carry no more than 700 passengers a day being just as much a core element of Transport 21 as Metro North. Transport21 delivered a rail service to Ardrahan, a village in rural Galway, but at the same time did not consider 200 extra buses for Dublin Bus. Sadly the “crossroads” still matters as much as O’Connell Street, if not more among the Irish political establishment in the 21st century. The amazing thing is that you would find thousands of people standing at bus stops in Dublin in the rain who would see no problem with the WRC being reopened and Dublin Bus not getting badly needed buses. It’s almost a form of national brainwashing when you think about, so culturally entrenched is this Rural = “glorious”, Urban = “un-Irish” mindset.
I am not anti-rural, in fact I think maintaining a healthy unspolit rural countryside rather than a giant one-off “Parlon Country” suburb is just as important as developing our cities.
Double the population of Dublin, Cork, Limerick and Galway and to hell with the factory and civil service department in every village mentality. It’s a potential scenario for national destruction AFAIC – especially it the Celtic Tiger tapers off which it will eventually.
November 2, 2006 at 2:13 am #785776Anonymous
InactiveGood post Panda, can you post up the “great man’s” article?
November 2, 2006 at 2:55 am #785777Anonymous
Inactivehttp://unison.ie/irish_independent/stories.php3?ca=9&si=1715919&issue_id=14831
Capital investment: a nation’s real wealth is built on its cities
ADVERTISEMENTFOR years in Ireland, political and economic debate has focussed on relocating industry and financial opportunities from Dublin to the regions.
The rationale was that people and money accumulate in the city at the expense of rural Ireland and so, it is incumbent on the elected representatives from rural Ireland to make sure some of the goodies were divvied up more equally.
Dublin has been portrayed, unfairly, as a long shadow which blights and darkens the countryside. In fact, the opposite is the case. Dublin and big cities in all countries are the dynamos of the national economy. Without the heat generated from cities, there would be no such thing as a national economy.
Ironically, senior civil servants were to the fore in implementing this ‘forced regionalisation’, yet they themselves are about to suffer from the superannuated version of their own misguided policy which is decentralisation. And surprise, surprise they don’t like it one bit.
It would be unfair to revel in the difficulties of those that who once lauded wholesale economic decentralisation because that would miss the point. The crucial factor is that decentralisation is and has always been a profoundly silly idea. It is based not on common sense but on shady political imperatives which will have an overall negative impact on the public sector.
Why do cities generate wealth? Why do cities generate inventions and why is economic history not the history of countries but the history of cities?
Cities generate innovations. Most inventions, even those which ultimately increased the yields in agriculture, were made in cities. Since the Middle Ages, cities fostered an economic dynamic usually based on trying to make stuff in the city which had to be imported in the past.
Back then, for a city to grow economically strong, it had two achieve two things: first, it had to produce nails, hammers, tools of all sorts so that it could wean itself off imports and thus, dependency; and second, it had to excel at something so that it could export and generate currency to sustain itself.
By being an economic dynamo, traditional industrial cities created a demand for food that, in turn, sustained the countryside. So this history of modern Europe and the US from the Hanseatic League and the first Puritan settlers, right up to the end of the Cold War, is the history of cities.
Countries such as Switzerland and the regions of Northern Italy and Southern Germany achieved this diverse patchwork of trading cities and towns each with their own specialities and skills. Even today, these places are at the forefront of highly profitable businesses.
Japan in the second half of the 20th century operated the same type of economic model, based largely on family firms. Ireland never developed like this and instead we have sought to attract in foreign capital by giving tax breaks. This has worked spectacularly well and at the moment, Ireland is a significant cog in the global economy’s supply chain.
But herein lies our vulnerability. We are part of a global supply chain and as such are a supply region. As long as we can supply part of the manufacturing process at a competitive cost, we are fine, but what happens when, not if, that changes?
A country we are rarely compared to is Uruguay. However, if there is one place that Ireland in the early 21st century resembles it is Uruguay of the early 20th century. It may be hard to believe now, but Uruguay was the world’s fastest growing country for almost 20 years. It had among the world’s most comprehensive social welfare system, brilliant infrastructure and, like Ireland today, a rapidly rising population driven by immigration.
So advanced was this small Latin American country, that it was termed the ‘Switzerland of the Americas’. Uruguay was in truth nothing of the sort. Like Ireland today, it was a supply region.
In its case, it was a highly efficient part of the global trade in agriculture. Uruguay was one of the world’s most competitive suppliers of meat, wool and leather. Its farms were among the most productive in the world and with the huge revenues it gained from this, the government invested in a state of the art welfare system, great schools and a European-style transport infrastructure.
Because it was so brilliant at agriculture, Uruguay did not see fit to promote other industries or innovations. Montevideo was content to process agricultural products, add value and export them.
In the 1930s things began to change. Agricultural prices fell worldwide. Uruguay suffered its first recession.
Then, after the second world war, European countries – having flirted with famine in 1945-46 – began to crank up agricultural production. Australia and New Zealand emerged as significant players in the market and Uruguay’s period in the sun came to a crashing end. Since then, Uruguay’s story has been one economic disaster after another.
In the dry language of economics, Uruguay suffered from what is termed ‘a trade shift’. The international value of what they exported fell at the same time as the prices of their imports rose. And, they had all their eggs in one basket.
SWITZERLAND, on the other hand, has thrived. Its wealth was based not on being a link in the global supply change but rather on years and years of strong domestic innovation, based in its small cities. In the future, Ireland must learn from the Swiss and not from the Uruguayans.
Things are going well today, but the real wealth of nations is built in their cities, not the countryside. Creativity, networks and competition thrive in cities and they cities should not be penalised for this by trying to relocate to rural regions which haven’t got the capacity to maintain relocated industries.
Decentralisation should be scrapped because government will work better from the city-centre out.
David McWilliams presents ‘The Leviathan: Political Cabaret’ tomorrow night at 9pm in CrawDaddy, Harcourt Street, Dublin. More details from http://www.davidmcwilliams.ie
November 2, 2006 at 11:47 am #785778Anonymous
Inactive@Cute Panda wrote:
and urban living and culture in general.
Was just reading David MacWilliams’ piece in the Indo today and you do have to wonder if there has been a political and cultural war against Dublin and urban dwellers in general in this country since the foundation of the state.
Much of it is rooted in Dev-ism, but it is really amazing how after all these years it still goes on. Polticians particulary in the West of Ireland consider Dublin to be a panecea for every problem west of the Shannon. For instance, I recently heard Dr Gerry Crowley MEP blaming the high deaths on the roads in Mayo on poor workmanship on the road repairs in the county. But he then instantly corrected himself by stressing it was not the local Mayo CoCo poor workmanship, but “the Dublin Government”. If one looks in the rural media this kind of political ‘magical thinking’ is repreated constantly. Just blame it all on the “Dublin Government” and make sure all the investment, factories, airports, civil servants is sent to rural regions and Ireland will be a paradise.
The David McWillians article today demonstrated how dangerous this anti-urbaism is for the health and well being of nations. From Uraguary to China to Ireland it hasn’t worked anywhere in fact – it has failed appallingly. Cities move nations forward, always have and always will.
I would go as far as saying that the 70 years of neglect, and at times, outright contempt for our nation’s capital was mirrored nationally by the decades of both urban and rural poverty as well as social, economic and cultural (it was Thin Lizzy, The Boomtown Rats, U2 who put Ireland on the global musical map and not Big Tom, Margo and Brendan Boyer) stagnation which all of Ireland experienced experience between 1930 and 1990. The “fair maidens dancing” didn’t deliver for any of the Irish people and the disturbing thing is the “crossroads” is still top of the Irish political agenda when one considers millions being spent on the Western Rail Corridor which will carry no more than 700 passengers a day being just as much a core element of Transport 21 as Metro North. Transport21 delivered a rail service to Ardrahan, a village in rural Galway, but at the same time did not consider 200 extra buses for Dublin Bus. Sadly the “crossroads” still matters as much as O’Connell Street, if not more among the Irish political establishment in the 21st century. The amazing thing is that you would find thousands of people standing at bus stops in Dublin in the rain who would see no problem with the WRC being reopened and Dublin Bus not getting badly needed buses. It’s almost a form of national brainwashing when you think about, so culturally entrenched is this Rural = “glorious”, Urban = “un-Irish” mindset.
I am not anti-rural, in fact I think maintaining a healthy unspolit rural countryside rather than a giant one-off “Parlon Country” suburb is just as important as developing our cities.
Double the population of Dublin, Cork, Limerick and Galway and to hell with the factory and civil service department in every village mentality. It’s a potential scenario for national destruction AFAIC – especially it the Celtic Tiger tapers off which it will eventually.
I agree totally. Frank McDonald hilighted this contempt of Dublin city by rural folk in his book the Destruction of Dublin, hilighting the appaling and ignorant attitude of the culchie TD’s attitudes toward the history and fabric of the city and urban living. Hence, Dublin’s drastic demise and destruction over the decades after independence. This contemptous attitude can be found in the rural folk (not all) who have come to Dublin to live and work and enjoy the amenities etc…. yet incessantly complain of the natives, labeling all as skangers, yet they themselves adopting the attitudes and trappings of a D4 accent and the cafe latte society.
November 2, 2006 at 12:09 pm #785779Anonymous
InactiveCute Panda,
I would have disagreed with your post until the last line which, in fairness, goes on the make the point completely missed by McWilliams. He kept talking about investing in our cities, citing the success of Switzerland, Germany et al but then completely missed the point about their multi-city approach by seemingly advocating investment in Dublin and to hell with the rest of the country (the other cities to boot).
I agree that too much money is wasted in this country by “looking after” every village from Malin to Mizen. The point I would make however is that the real loser in this approach is not Dublin, but the other main cities of Galway, Limerick, Waterford and Cork which fall between the two stools. Our government believes in urban investment (which it defines essentially as Dublin) and rural investment (everywhere else with the funds spread thinly between them, Galway city treated the same as Tuam, etc).
The decentralisation fiasco is a classic symtom of that. Whereas decentralisation would, in another country, consist of moving civil servants voluntarily to the other urban centres, here it consists of sending them to the most rural areas of the country, the very areas most unlike Dublin and thus least appealing to prospective movers. In fact decentralisation Irish style actually included moving civil servants out of Dublin AND Cork notwithstanding that there are few enough civil servants in Cork and, one would have imagined, decentralisation would accordingly have involved transferring many more civil servants into Cork – which, being at least in some respects (obviously much smaller) a city like Dublin might have proved a more attractive location for prospective movers.
I no longer live in Dublin but appreciate the many headaches involved in public transport there. Dublin’s transport problems have to be fixed but simultaneous, I would have thought, to looking after public transport in the other urban areas. I know the lack of metro to Dublin airport, the non-connection of the Luas, the delayed port tunnel etc are head wrecking for Dubliners but try being in an urban area where your buses (basically the only form of public transport) are usually cast offs from Dublin bus – as is the case in the other Urban areas – and you would appreciate that Dublin is certainly not the only or biggest casualty of our government’s attempts to please every constituency in the country with vanity projects and the like.
November 2, 2006 at 12:38 pm #785780Anonymous
Inactive@GregF wrote:
I agree totally. Frank McDonald hilighted this contempt of Dublin city by rural folk in his book the Destruction of Dublin, hilighting the appaling and ignorant attitude of the culchie TD’s attitudes toward the history and fabric of the city and urban living. Hence, Dublin’s drastic demise and destruction over the decades after independence. This contemptous attitude can be found in the rural folk (not all) who have come to Dublin to live and work and enjoy the amenities etc…. yet incessantly complain of the natives, labeling all as skangers, yet they themselves adopting the attitudes and trappings of a D4 accent and the cafe latte society.
As someone who has spent alot of time in Dublin I would like to challenge this by adding that there is no one with as much contempt for Dublin as its own citizens. My evidence for this amounts to the huge amount of litter, the blas
November 2, 2006 at 1:01 pm #785781Anonymous
Inactive@mickeydocs wrote:
As someone who has spent alot of time in Dublin I would like to challenge this by adding that there is no one with as much contempt for Dublin as its own citizens. My evidence for this amounts to the huge amount of litter, the blasé attitude to the erosion of Dublin’s community life, but most of all to the absolute apathy towards the architectural and cultural destruction that has been unleashed upon the city.
There is such a lack of interest in the Tribunals that essentially prove that those charged with running Dublin are more interested in lining their pockets than improving the city.
Do not blame the ‘culchies’. Blame yourself, as you elect those that run your city. You litter your city, and you have accepted the awful quality of life that is now available to you.
Yep, fair point ….but it was such a contempt in part by culchie TD’s that saw the demise of the city in the first place. Seeing it as a former HQ and symbol of the Brits, it was allowed to decay with the result that most of it’s soul and heart disappeared, communities were broken up, generations and families of traders, shopowners and merchants all lost and gone, only to be replaced with what we’ve got today in the Celtic Tiger years….a Spar on every corner. Drugs and unempolyment got such a grip on these communities that why should they feel anything but contempt for their capital city. A vital part of the city was lost forever ….but yet similar thriving communities of families of trader and merchants etc….can still be seen in cities abroad in Europe today , no matter how poor they were.
November 2, 2006 at 1:10 pm #785782Anonymous
Inactive@GregF wrote:
Yep, fair point ….but it was such a contempt in part by culchie TD’s that saw the demise of the city in the first place. Seeing it as a former HQ and symbol of the Brits, it was allowed to decay with the result that most of it’s soul and heart disappeared, communities were broken up, generations and families of traders, shopowners and merchants all lost and gone, only to be replaced with what we’ve got today in the Celtic Tiger years….a Spar on every corner. Drugs and unempolyment got such a grip on these communities that why should they feel anything but contempt for their capital city. A vital part of the city was lost forever ….but yet similar thriving communities of families of trader and merchants etc….can still be seen in cities abroad in Europe today , no matter how poor they were.
The whole country suffers from Gombeen politicians and has done since the inception of the state. We have a country full of people that love to mimic and deride the British in the same breath and it would be comical except for the fact that it has severely impacted the progress of our nation for far too long.
Dublin is not different in this regard as Cork, Galway and Limerick all suffer from the same issues.
It could however be argued that Dublin has prospered due to the fact that it is no longer in direct competition with Belfast, its great 19th Century rival.
November 2, 2006 at 1:28 pm #785783Anonymous
InactiveMickey, you are correct about the litter in Dublin and the behaviour of some of it’s citizens. I hate Skangers too. But a part of me feels that much of this stems from decades of the city being unoffically unloved, respected or even wanted by the State. When was the last time you saw any kind of movement to make Irish (let alone Dubliners) people proud of their capital, it’s culture, it’s economic sucess and it’s heritage?
Yet by the same token Galway city is held up as this model Irish city, and the cold reality is that Galway city apart from the small Temple-Bar like area central area is a spead out, badly-planned souless kip. Yet it is only Dublin which has spead out too far and must be dismantled by the Government “before it falls into the Irish Sea”. Why can these West of Ireland TDs who prevented a Greater Dublin Authority and at least 2 Dublin Transport Authorities from forming because such implementations would allow Dublin to really take off as a city and region, take a look at what happened to Galway and Limerick before hey start pointing fingers at Dublin and screaming “guilty” and poor and corrupt planning?
Also many Irish provincial towns are filthy with litter and have anti-social behaviour problems as well. This is not just a Dublin issue, unless of course you want to blame the shocking litter problems in Sligo town and Cork city on Dubliners.
Also I don’t see Dublin politicans reserving planning permission for locals only to keep the Culchies out inthe same way several West of Ireland councils have implemented such propsals with pride. Could you imagine if Dubliners declared that Poolbeg was “Dublin’s Electricity” in the same way that Corrib is “Mayo’s gas”. How come it is only Dubliners who have no problem sharing their wealth and city with the rest of the country and it’s all GAA county colours and “feck off this is all ours” everywhere else?
You talk about Dubliners messing up their city, but the same can be said of the rest of the country as well. But the difference is that Dublin and it’s politicans do not go out and destroy the growth and potential of the rest of the country the way rural TDs feel they have an obligation to do with so Dublin. In many parts of this country TDs run for office on little more than anti-Dublin platforms. Many Dubliners would be shocked if they knew the level of hatred expressed towards them and their city by most of the people in “the Dublin Goverment”.
I don’t blame the ordinary people outside Dublin for this, more their poltical representatives and the organisations from the regions. Most ordinary people outside Dubln are not anti-Dublin, this is more a mentality among the rural elite, who have no more respect or interest in their own people than they do Jackeens. They just use Dublin as an excuse for all their own shortcomings and to hide their own incompetence. Take this recent article in the Tuam Herald recently were the local po;iticians were complaing about how it is everyones fault but their own that the Tuam by-pass is delayed.
Tuam Town Council on Monday night described the delays in starting the Tuam by-pass as an insult, adding that the oral hearings for the project were the shortest in the history of the State due to the co-operation of the landowners along the Tuam route.
However one public representative who asked not to be named because of the sensitivity of the issue told The Herald “If we had not had so much time wasted over nonsense about saving swans and the like and people trying to cash in on a planning bonanza the work would have been well underway or completed by now. The blame for this set-back is closer to home than some public figures care to admit.”
http://unison.ie/tuam_herald/stories.php3?ca=34&si=1712329&issue_id=14806
But the fault always lies to the East with the “Dublin Government” doesn’t it… This need to point the finger of blame away from themselves is what drives much of this anti-Dublin psychosis among Irish politicians and the rural elite.
Ironically this sustained 70 year attack on Dublin and Irish urban life has perhaps damaged the potential of regions outside Dublin and in particular other cities like Cork and Limerick as much as it has Dublin. Like I said, the “Fair Madiens dancing at the Crossroads” was and always will be a recipe for national destruction.
November 2, 2006 at 2:58 pm #785784Anonymous
InactiveIronically this sustained 70 year attack on Dublin and Irish urban life has perhaps damaged the potential of regions outside Dublin and in particular other cities like Cork and Limerick as much as it has Dublin. Like I said, the “Fair Madiens dancing at the Crossroads” was and always will be a recipe for national destruction.[/QUOTE]
Cute Panda, that is essentially what I was saying in my message above. I do genuinely think that the disadvantage Dublin suffered down through the first years of the State is presently being rectified. I don’t have figures but I’d say 50%+ of spending envisaged in Transport 21 is on Dublin. If you added in the Motorway network (which is essentially a route network from Dublin to the whole of the country, it certainly aids Dublin more than any one particular place as they are getting several routes, everywhere else gets one) then this figure must be 85%+.
For the record I’m based in Cork and, to be wholly parochial about it, I feel that Cork has come off worst of all from the crazy City/Country divide in Ireland. As I said above, the Regional Cities are treated as part of the Countryside and get pitifully little capital investment per capita relative both to Dublin and rural towns and villages. Just because Dublin was treated lamentably in only getting (the first vestiges of) proper public transport recently doesn’t mean we should repeat the error of our ways in the other cities too. Again to speak from my own point of view (I’ll let Galway and Limerick posters put forward their own case), there are 450,000+ people living within a 25 mile radius of Cork and there are numerous cities throughout Europe of that size with fine light rail and tram networks. Transport 21, created at a time of unprecedented wealth and which purports to plan for the long term future, doesn’t come within an ass’ roar of even considering doing something similar here.
As Cute Panda puts it, we should double the population of our cities (its already happening). If we do that though, we need to invest heavily IN ALL OF THEM (which I think is what McWilliams probably meant to say in the first place). This is not as to say though that I begrudge the (belated) investment in Dublin.
November 2, 2006 at 3:34 pm #785785Anonymous
Inactiveand it’s politicans do not go out and destroy the growth and potential of the rest of the country the way rural TDs feel they have an obligation to do with so Dublin.
Utter tosh. TD’s are elected to run Ireland, not Dublin. The very problem with Dublin – it’s size relative to the rest of the country – is what makes Dubliners think that the National Government is a local Dublin government. TD’s dont run Dublin, but Ireland.
Repeat 100 times on the blackboard.
November 2, 2006 at 3:58 pm #785786Anonymous
Inactive@browser wrote:
Ironically this sustained 70 year attack on Dublin and Irish urban life has perhaps damaged the potential of regions outside Dublin and in particular other cities like Cork and Limerick as much as it has Dublin. Like I said, the “Fair Madiens dancing at the Crossroads” was and always will be a recipe for national destruction.
Cute Panda, that is essentially what I was saying in my message above. I do genuinely think that the disadvantage Dublin suffered down through the first years of the State is presently being rectified. I don’t have figures but I’d say 50%+ of spending envisaged in Transport 21 is on Dublin. If you added in the Motorway network (which is essentially a route network from Dublin to the whole of the country, it certainly aids Dublin more than any one particular place as they are getting several routes, everywhere else gets one) then this figure must be 85%+.
For the record I’m based in Cork and, to be wholly parochial about it, I feel that Cork has come off worst of all from the crazy City/Country divide in Ireland. As I said above, the Regional Cities are treated as part of the Countryside and get pitifully little capital investment per capita relative both to Dublin and rural towns and villages. Just because Dublin was treated lamentably in only getting (the first vestiges of) proper public transport recently doesn’t mean we should repeat the error of our ways in the other cities too. Again to speak from my own point of view (I’ll let Galway and Limerick posters put forward their own case), there are 450,000+ people living within a 25 mile radius of Cork and there are numerous cities throughout Europe of that size with fine light rail and tram networks. Transport 21, created at a time of unprecedented wealth and which purports to plan for the long term future, doesn’t come within an ass’ roar of even considering doing something similar here.
As Cute Panda puts it, we should double the population of our cities (its already happening). If we do that though, we need to invest heavily IN ALL OF THEM (which I think is what McWilliams probably meant to say in the first place). This is not as to say though that I begrudge the (belated) investment in Dublin.[/QUOTE]
There is nothing in Transport 21 for Cork’s road,rail,port,public transport or airport infrastructure in fact there are projects essential to the development of the city actually being put on the long finger like the Kent Station / Horgans Quay re-development etc.As a Dub in Cork I realise after moving here that Cork is probably the only city right now capable of providing an alternative to the crass overdevelopment of our capital and has the population and mass to entice civil servants and private companies to re-locate.The anti-Dublin/Capital City rant was and will always be there and exists in all Europaen countries. May God help us all and protect us from Martin Cullen – Incompetant Man Walking.
November 3, 2006 at 12:13 am #785787Anonymous
InactiveA worthy and timely issue for discussion Cute Panda – but it very much relates to urbanism in general as browser has summed up very well, and something that McWilliams didn’t clearly point out. In that respect it’s no wonder people feel an anti-Dublin bias. It’s the widespread anti-urban mindset that is key, not anti-Dublin.
The pathetic transport infrastructure in regional cities and towns speaks for itself, with Cork in particular having the most astonishingly lacking bus services. Whatever about light rail and other flights of fancy, for the second city not even to have a decent bus service for its sprawling suburbs is akin to Crumlin being entirely car dependent. It beggars belief how that city has and is being treated by CIE and its unions.
It’s a problem countrywide – urban cores across the country are seen as places to shop on a Saturday, for lawyers and solititors and small business personnel to ponce about in in their lunch hour, and to drive to in your car as a novelty experience. Not places to live, not places to go about your daily business and certainly not places to bring up a family heaven forbid. Across the country, our urban centres are being packed to the gills with three storey crappy tax-break apartments to cater for first-rungers and students attending the local IT/university. Otherwise it’s sprawl sprawl sprawl.
Frankly the anti-Dublin bias pales into insignificance when one considers what’s being done to small town urban Ireland. Planners and councillors don’t have a notion how to consolidate and logically expand existing centres. Developers are dictating the terms everywhere with mindless estates, with the local authorities playing catchup, laying down the minimum of terms and conditions. At least Dublin’s planners have an idea what they’re about now – outside the capital it’s either semi-d sprawl or inner-urban bedsits.
Urban loses again. Though saying that, so does rural – villages are neglected whilst retail parks and ranks of houes gobble up the rural outskirts of towns.November 3, 2006 at 1:24 am #785788Anonymous
InactiveGood post Graham,
I was worried that it was descending into a Dublin Vs the rest thread. There is a Dublin mindset that treats the rest of the country as a farm but the rural politicians do like to engage in us versus the dUBLIN media or dublin government etc.
I lived in Cork city centre in the 90’s and it was a disgrace the way it was managed; shopping on a saturday, drinking on a saturday night. Place was like a bomb hit it on sunday, but nobody cared because there was no one around and nothing open, everyone had headed off to kinsale. The litter & puke was cleaned up some time Monday afternoon.
As for sustainable consolidation and expansion of our towns and villages, is there good examples anywhere? Some of the west cork towns have done a reasonable job I’d say, Clonakilty, skibereen. Far away enough to be out of the commuter belt.
November 3, 2006 at 2:03 am #785789Anonymous
InactiveSeriously it hasn’t yet sunk in. Here is a ridiculous quote from GregF
Yep, fair point ….but it was such a contempt in part by culchie TD’s that saw the demise of the city in the first place. Seeing it as a former HQ and symbol of the Brits, it was allowed to decay with the result that most of it’s soul and heart disappeared, communities were broken up, generations and families of traders, shopowners and merchants all lost and gone, only to be replaced with what we’ve got today in the Celtic Tiger years….a Spar on every corner.
Really. No… But seriously ( ignoring the fact this nonsese would be considered racist were the outsiders immigrants and not just “culchies”, a derogative term) lets say it again:
TD. Trachta Dala. Elected to run the National Parliament. Ireland. Not Dublin. No more responsible for the demise of Dublin than German Federal Parliamentarians would be responsible for problems in Bonn, or Berlin ( now).
And really, get over yourselves. Dublin has produced most of the corrupt politicans in the country ( name them), the most corrupt councillors, and the most inept city management in Europe. Learn to blame yourselves.
And the anti-Urban anti-Dublin bias has produced the most centralized State in Europe, with the largest population in one urban centre relative to the country’s overall population structure in – I want to say the World – but prove me wrong.
Dublin’s problems are not to be blamed on a mythical “anti-Urban” bias which made Dublin far too large relative to the rest of the country but the utter incompetance of Dubliners who are charged with running their own city – not culchies – and the inability to blame themselves when they mess it up, but to transfer the blame onto outsiders.
( and it is not true that urban centres outside Dublin are as bad as Dublin: the medium sized towns, Kilkenny, Tralee, Clonmel, Wexford, etc.- all have problems, but are run well, and cleaner, with more civic involvement than Dublin).
It is time to end the perennial Dublin whine. Fix up your own problems and stop blaming the countryside.
November 3, 2006 at 2:35 am #785790Anonymous
Inactive@asdasd wrote:
and it is not true that urban centres outside Dublin are as bad as Dublin: the medium sized towns, Kilkenny, Tralee, Clonmel, Wexford, etc.- all have problems, but are run well, and cleaner, with more civic involvement than Dublin
I don’t agree. Take transport, for example. In Dublin, ok, we’]never ever [/I]hear about what’s going to be done about this, like you constantly hear about the strong medicines cities will have to take for their transport problems. In this respect the medium and smaller towns of Ireland have an infinitely more unsustainable transportation (and thus also land-use) pattern than the cities do. I wonder when media focus on this will begin?
November 3, 2006 at 8:46 am #785791Anonymous
InactiveAnto, Devin – I would have to agree with the argument in your posts. I think Dublin, for years neglected in terms of a proper transport plan, is finally getting its act together. Or at least I should say it is finally a political issue of huge significance in Dublin and its hinterlands, and hence action is demanded. Alas, in places like Cork, it is still not an issue at the top of the priority list and the reality on the ground reflects this. The public transport system in the city is still a complete joke and is nowhere near what it should be. Cork came out with a very enlightened plan called LUTS (Land Use & Tranportation Plan) back in 1971, but alas only the roads element in that plan was addressed. The commuter rail and bus elements were kicked to touch and thus we are basically left with the same bus routes in the city that we had 20 or 30 years ago. True, the Cobh/Midleton line is finally being upgraded/reopened and a new (albeit limited) park and ride facility has been put in place. However, it is still not part of an integrated plan. Cross-town ticketing, bus/rail interchange, greater bus frequencies, cycling lanes…all still a distant dream. The net result is that commuters don’t have an option but to drive into town.
And while the city council exhort us mere mortals to get on a bus and leave the car at home, they still saw fit to include 300 car parking spaces in their city hall extension while restricting it for any other developer in the city! Obviously their own rules don’t apply to themselves.
I am all for publin transport but I also realise that people need a viable alternative to private transport for this to work. Thankfully, the mess that is the new Cork Airport and the delapidated train station are angering people who are just saying enough is enough and demanding political action. Let’s hope Cork and the other provincial cities see the light soon, because the alternative is more of the same except worse:eek:November 3, 2006 at 9:57 am #785792Anonymous
InactiveThe attempt to demonize almost two thirds of the nation’s population through discriminatory rhetoric and unsubstantiated accusations displayed in a number of these postings is disgraceful. The moderator would do well to moderate the discussion into one that examines the problems objectively and that does not seek to isolate a large sector of the populace or blame them for the woes of one city. I would ask the moderator to act proactively and responsibly in this instance.
November 3, 2006 at 11:47 am #785793Anonymous
Inactive@asdasd wrote:
Seriously it hasn’t yet sunk in. Here is a ridiculous quote from GregF
Really. No… But seriously ( ignoring the fact this nonsese would be considered racist were the outsiders immigrants and not just “culchies”, a derogative term) lets say it again:
TD. Trachta Dala. Elected to run the National Parliament. Ireland. Not Dublin. No more responsible for the demise of Dublin than German Federal Parliamentarians would be responsible for problems in Bonn, or Berlin ( now).
And really, get over yourselves. Dublin has produced most of the corrupt politicans in the country ( name them), the most corrupt councillors, and the most inept city management in Europe. Learn to blame yourselves.
And the anti-Urban anti-Dublin bias has produced the most centralized State in Europe, with the largest population in one urban centre relative to the country’s overall population structure in – I want to say the World – but prove me wrong.
Dublin’s problems are not to be blamed on a mythical “anti-Urban” bias which made Dublin far too large relative to the rest of the country but the utter incompetance of Dubliners who are charged with running their own city – not culchies – and the inability to blame themselves when they mess it up, but to transfer the blame onto outsiders.
( and it is not true that urban centres outside Dublin are as bad as Dublin: the medium sized towns, Kilkenny, Tralee, Clonmel, Wexford, etc.- all have problems, but are run well, and cleaner, with more civic involvement than Dublin).
It is time to end the perennial Dublin whine. Fix up your own problems and stop blaming the countryside.
Just to add to what has already been said Dev’s ideal Ireland was one of devout god fearing catholic potato gatherers in green fields with virginal women dancing about the boreens. This ideal undeniably permeated Irish society until around Mary Robinson became President. It still lingers on in parts of the country. Dev’s croanies whether Dubs or not felt much obliged to tow the line rigidly believing in such stupid ideology, hindering the country for decades. As a result, architecture and city life suffered, inner city Dublin which sets the precedent for the rest of other Irish cities and Irish Life in general being victim ubhir ahoin.
November 3, 2006 at 2:15 pm #785794Anonymous
InactiveAll countries have some tension betwen the capital city and the rest of the inhabitants. Ever hear French people going on about stuck-up Parisians? The people in Washington? …
What is Irish policy on urbanism? is there one?
I had a thick boss once who told me that all the issues we were facing were priorities. Policy on land use in Ireland seems similar: We need to halt population decline in all areas: rural, village, town and city.
Rural areas have more community spirit than urban areas, but the dark side of communuity is parochialism. No policy should benefit a single constituency at great cost to the country as a whole yet this seems to be what all politicans around the country fight for.
Anyone remember the Mercury Soap plant that supplied poisonous skin products to Africa from Wicklow for decades? Locals interviewed on the TV at the time all emphasised the jobs being created. Reminded me of Ibsen’s ‘An Enemy of the People’.
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