is/was this in dublin? tholsel

it did, on john’s lane. it might be that NCAD was built on the site.

The lower story is still there facing Christchurch I believe. Also the two statues on the front of the building of Charles I and II are in the crypt of Christchurch cathedral.

I always thought St Werburgs was on the site of the Tholsel…Im sure there is a plaque on the building saying so. It was a petty claims and lower court if I am not mistaken, in the days before the Four Courts.

what is a tholsel ? it was nice building although it doesn’t really look like anything else in the city. remimds me of the buildings in paris .

The wonders of this site know no bounds….

What is a Tholsel, Paul?

It would have been once of the big civic buildings in the city in its time. I think the Royal Exchange, now City Hall took over its functions when it was built.

@StephenC wrote:

I always thought St Werburgs was on the site of the Tholsel…Im sure there is a plaque on the building saying so. It was a petty claims and lower court if I am not mistaken, in the days before the Four Courts.

Nope, look at the remains of the stone building facing that horrific corn exchange building.. the Plaque on St Werburghs commerates one of the United Irishmen that is interned there.

aaaah. I know the site you are talking about. Its now the Peace Garden and a segment of the wall remains as part of the apartment complex beside it.

I was under the impression that the Tholsel was on ChristChurch Place roughly where the Jurys is now?

@StephenC wrote:

aaaah. I know the site you are talking about. Its now the Peace Garden and a segment of the wall remains as part of the apartment complex beside it.

Is that wall not the remains of St Nicholas Within?

i never realised that building in kilkenny was a tholsel.

i’m pretty sure it’s “saint nicholas without”, there’s a widows building up the road with him and st. luke over the door.

St Nicholas Without church is off the Coombe – the Widows House was on the Coombe
http://homepage.eircom.net/~seanjmurphy/dublin/

It can’t be ‘without’ as its ‘within’ the city walls which run along Chancery Street (?) from Dublin Castle. This is becoming hilarious…within and without.

From the picture it does look as if the Tholsel is in the centre of a terrace which would make its location at the site of Jurys more probable.

according to me in my book “Dublin Street Names”, the Tholsel was in Skinner’s Row which was widened to become Christchurch Place. I am fairly certain the site was in the centre of the Jurys site, if you remember the site prior to demolition, there was a corpo building in the middle of the terrace, and I remember being told that it was on the site of the Tholsel.

Thosel was Skinner’s Row indeed (good old Maurice Craig) and no trace of it remains today. The walls referred to in the peace garden in Christchurch place is indeed St Nicolas within (the walls) St Nicholas without is St Nicolas of Myra on Francis Street

google is great! 🙂

The late medieval merchants’ hall, known as the Tholsel, stood at the top of Nicholas Street just north of the present ruins of St. Nicholas’s Church. By the middle of the fifteenth century the Tholsel accommodated the town clock, which was probably the first public mechanical clock of its kind in Ireland. The same building housed the Chain Book which was attached by a chain for security and could be consulted on the laws and usages of the town. This manuscript and many others dating from the Middle Ages still survive in the archives of Dublin Corporation in the City Hall in Dame Street.

Figure 6: The Chain Book

This miscellaneous volume contains an illuminated calendar, acts passed by the city assembly, customs of the market-places and the annual fair, and a general customal with 112 sections. It probably stood on a lectern, attached by a clasp and chain, although these have now disappeared. It measures about 28 x 19cm, and is approximately 4cm thick.

As far as I can make out the Tholsel was located just inside the city wall at St. Nicholas Gate.

That puts it at Nicholas Street junction with Christchurch place. A pamphlet outining city walks produced by “the Friends of Medieval Dublin” and Dublin City Council says that it stood where the peace garden is now.

It had a mechanical public clock installed in the fifteenth century, which was probably the first of it’s kind in Ireland. The building was demolished in 1809, having been superceded by City Hall (1780?). I’d love to know where that clock ended up! It also housed The Chain Book which ended up in the city archives

Tholsel – The word itself is fascinating, and open to some interpretation

“sel” could be from Salle as in the french Salle – room or hall. But that form of Salle also refers to a double gate (sally-port) which I think St Nics was.
Sel could also have derived from “stalle” or a stall. This could have been the case before the Tholsel building was built.

@Rory W wrote:

Thosel was Skinner’s Row indeed (good old Maurice Craig) and no trace of it remains today. The walls referred to in the peace garden in Christchurch place is indeed St Nicolas within (the walls) St Nicholas without is St Nicolas of Myra on Francis Street

you’re half right – st nicolas of myra on francis street is the catholic church of the parish – the real St Nicholas Without was off the Coombe, and is was until recently at least a ruin – not sure if it is still standing

When I lived off Donore Avenue roughly three years ago I remember a large, rubble stone, roofless shell of a building stranded between (I think) St. Luke’s Avenue/Coombe Relief Road, Newmarket, and New Row South. I’m pretty sure it’s still there, just visible in front of you as you turn left onto St Luke’s Avenue from Dean Street.

Would this be St Nicholas Without? Always presumed so, without having it confirmed by anyone more knowledgeable than I.

That’s it….

from ChristChurch Cathedral website

15/11/2005 The Church Review notes for the month of December 2005 are now online.
The ruined Widows House of the parishes of St Nicholas Without and St Luke, The Coombe (Photo: Seán J. Murphy, Centre for Irish Genealogical and Historical Studies, 2001)Those interested are cordially invited to the launch, in the crypt on Tuesday 29 November at 18.00, of the conservation plan for St Luke’s, the Coombe (St Nicholas Without & St Luke), by the Heritage & Archaeology Office, Dublin City Council. The author of the study, which is ‘An action of the Dublin City Heritage Plan’, is the city archaeologist, Dr Ruth Johnson (a former curator of Dublinia), who spoke on the subject to the Royal Society of Antiquaries of Ireland in March 2003. The launch will be performed by the lord mayor of Dublin, Councillor Catherine Byrne and the Dublin city manager, Mr John Fitzgerald. Regrets only 01 2223824 or email heritage@dublincity.ie. The church itself was burnt some years ago, and has stood roofless since.

St Nicholas without, to the best of my knowledge, did not exist as a church building. It was a side chapel of St Patrick’s cathedral.