proposed changes to stephen’s green
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I work for The Sunday Tribune newspaper, I am working on an article on the proposed changes to St. Stephen’s Green. I read some of your postings in relation to Traffic and Transportation Strategic Policy Commitee report and was hoping some of you might be interested in contributing to my article.
Is the proposed pedestrianisation of Stephen’s Green West an opportunity to improve and develop a landmark Dublin ammenity or is it an ill-conceived/ad hoc planning proposal that will cause traffic gridlocks and general frustration?
– Helen Murray, The Sunday Tribune
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Originally posted by Helen
Is the proposed pedestrianisation of Stephen’s Green West an opportunity to improve and develop a landmark Dublin ammenity or is it an ill-conceived/ad hoc planning proposal that will cause traffic gridlocks and general frustration?Your question touches on three main points, Firstly when was this plan conceived, Secondly will it work and/or be retained and thirdly if it is retained in its current format what will the result be in terms of planning gain for the pedestrian.
No one except John Fitzgerald and Owen Keegan really know how long this has been on the agenda. But in my opinion the traffic load has been excessive on Stephens Green West for about two years, ever since it went from 4 lanes to 2.
It is in my opinion a move of necessity to try alternative routes for the existing traffic, they don’t have an option because 2 lanes will ensure gridlock.
Secondly will it work, the major stumbling blocks will be Loretto parents double parking on Stephens green east to recycle their little darlings. This they can do with four lanes but not with two under the proposed format. More seriously will be the banning of the right turn at the end of Harcourt St for public transport. The forced turn into Cuffe St will prevent all Ranelagh/Dundrum and Rathmines/Terenure/Churchtown buses from entering the core shopping areas of Stephens Green and Dawson St.
It is a no win situation for buses as after they turn right from Cuffe St to Aungier St the stretch from Whitefriars down is gridlocked already, it will render many buses immobile for a minimum of 10-15 minutes during peak hours. It also raises the question where do you put the new bus stops?Thirdly if the plan works it will provide an excellent Civic Space, allowing one to relax when crossing from Stephens Green to Grafton St, there have been many pedestrians who in a daydream have drifted in front of traffic over the years at this location, one child was tragically killed by a cyclist.
The real question is what is of higher value another civic space entirely free of traffic or the efficient operation of the 14/14A 15/ 15A 15B 44 48A and only public transport disturbing pedestrians.
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Another proposed option for buses that currently use Harcourt St is to re-route along Hatch St and then along a contra flow bus lane on Earlsford Terrace to St Stephens Green East. I think this is the best solution. Between the DCC and BAC the re-routing of buses can be successfully integrated into this plan with out pissing off bus users, which is of utmost importance, and with out the need for busses to use the north west corner of the Green.
After years of car centric policy it’s about time some street space is reclaimed for the weary pedestrians and cyclists of Dublin. The safety improvements speak for them selves but also the civic area it will create is what Dublin sorely lacks at the moment and will become a great public amenity, with shouts of why didn’t they do this before.
DDC may have had their hand forced on this but at least they are making the right decisions and putting the car last on their list of priority. I think the DCC are on the right track and with a few tweaks like changing the direction of traffic flow on Hume St and Ely Place this will work and all modes of transport, cars included, will benefit.
For those who haven’t seen the proposal here is a link to the Briefing Note on the DCC site http://www.dublincity.ie/traffic/green.htm
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I agree that the Earlsfort Terrace contraflow seems an attractive option for buses. You could even have a bus-stop outside the NCH.
Well done in spotting the consultation notice, blue.
I see it announces a deadline for comments of Friday week. Spread the word to interested parties!
Edited to add:
I think its pretty amusing and illustrative of the non-strategic approach that the consultation is entitled and promoted on the Director of Traffic page as Reconstruction of St. Stephen’s Green West
rather than “New Transport Strategy for the SG area” or something similar. -
The Earlsfort Terrace route seems the best option for buses.
What is important for the newly pedestrianised area is that it reinforces the demarcation between the island effect of the Green in relation to the roadway rather than simply creating a sprawling spilling over effect from Grafton St to the entrance to the Green.
It could be potentially messy to have the roadway coming from Merrion Row with the Green clearly defined all the way along, and then to have it stop at a dead end with acres of granite replacing it after Dawson St. There is a nice avenue atmosphere along the Green North at the moment that would be a shame to loose.At the entrance to Grafton St I propose a vast baroque water feature of carrera marble featuring Neptune holding aloft a giant bowl from which water would spill over bronze mermaids and maidens, in turn flanked by 16 storks jetting water into sea-shells held by groups cherubs – all in honour of Mr Clerkin himself.
The perfect partner to the Stephens Green Centre 🙂
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Originally posted by Diaspora
No one except John Fitzgerald and Owen Keegan really know how long this has been on the agenda. But in my opinion the traffic load has been excessive on Stephens Green West for about two years, ever since it went from 4 lanes to 2.It is in my opinion a move of necessity to try alternative routes for the existing traffic, they don’t have an option because 2 lanes will ensure gridlock.
I think that the traffic load on SGW has been excessive for 5/6 years. Ever cycled around it? And tried not to be funelled down Dawson Street by the motorised traffic? It’s very difficult. The “wasted capacity” of most of the rest of the Green should be utilised. Creating a new pedestrian friendly plaza at the top of Grafton Street is a prize worth trying for.
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Yes
Big changes on the Green. Great to see “planning on the hoof”.
1. The choke point where Hume Street joins the Green, put in , oh all of three / four months ago, is now being dug up and it sems to be being removed. This “improvement” caused traffic jams back to Merrion Street, but perhaps that was what it was supposed to do?
2. The traffic island on the Leeson St / Green junction is now partly removed also.
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Yeah it won’t be long now and they’ll be rebuilding the freshly laid island at the junction ofSt Stephens Green South and West.
They’re still working on building this island, to have it ready for the official opening of the Luas in June. They in July/August they will have to dismantle it to allow for the new traffic flow. What a waste of tax-payer money! How do these officials get away with this? What incompetence!
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Roadworks on St Stephen’s Green to reverse traffic flow and restrict movement
Joe HumphreysDublin City Council has set Sunday, July 4th, as the date for the introduction of new traffic arrangements at St Stephen’s Green.
Mr Brendan O’Brien, the council’s head of technical services in traffic, said the management plan outlined last month on the issue would go ahead with only minor alterations, leading to the closure of part of St Stephen’s Green West and a change in the direction of the traffic flow.
Mr O’Brien stressed that the changes were being introduced on a temporary basis to facilitate roadworks on St Stephen’s Green West. If they were to become permanent, he said, there would first be a round of public consultation.
Under the plan, cars will no longer be able to drive around the green. Instead, the traffic flow will be reversed along St Stephen’s Green East, from Earlsfort Terrace to the Shelbourne Hotel.
There will be two-way traffic along the south side of the green. However, all traffic coming down Harcourt Street will have to turn left.
Temporary barriers and signposts will be installed in the coming weeks to direct traffic along the route. Cars travelling from Cuffe Street to Merrion Row will be worst affected as they will have to travel anti-clockwise around the green before looping back via Dawson Street, Molesworth Street and Kildare Street.
The council will consider reversing the traffic on Hume Street and Ely Place, allowing cars from St Stephen’s Green East to access Merrion Row more easily.
However, this has been ruled out in the initial phase of the road works, which are due to take up to eight weeks. Under this first phase of works, St Stephen’s Green West will be closed up to York Street. Cars will be allowed to access the Royal College of Surgeons/St Stephen’s Green car parks via St Stephen’s Green North. Under phase two, the route between Glover’s Alley to Dawson Street will be closed to traffic, creating an extended pedestrianised area.
The council is hoping to undertake this second phase of works immediately after the first. But Mr O’Brien conceded that if the new arrangements were found to have caused problems it could come under pressure to postpone phase two until next summer.
One of the few changes to the original plan is to allow buses turn right at the top of Kildare Street onto St Stephen’s Green North, to facilitate feeder services to and from the Luas. On St Stephen’s Green East, there will be a contra-flow bus lane allowing buses to travel from Kildare Street to Leeson Street.
Buses travelling in the opposite direction will have to join ordinary traffic lanes, however.
The Railway Procurement Agency (RPA) said the roadworks would not disrupt Luas services or delay the start of the light rail scheme on June 30th. The agency’s board is due to approve plans to allow pensioners travel free on the service tomorrow.
However, an RPA spokesman said: “Until the board formally signs off we are not in a position to go through the detail.”
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Sounds like they are getting a little nervous about the long term plan – which would be a shame.
If phase 2 is left till next summer does that imply another 12 months of bicycle shattering pot holes for cyclists passing the Fitzwilliam hotel etc or will there be some light remedial work on the potholes?No word there about what Dublin bus are going to do with the buses currently going down Harcourt St – will it be Hatch and Green East or Harcourt/Cuffe/Aungier/Georges St for them?
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I think they are just covering their ass with this statement I can’t see the second phase getting delayed for a year. The first phase will be such a success compared to the current situation plus what difference is waiting for a year going to make? Wish “reversing the traffic on Hume Street and Ely Place” was part of the first phase. Bring it on say I.
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Obviously the Loretto parents have won the right to triple park into perpetuity. The elimination of Hume St and Ely Place from the equation is bonkers as is the impossibility of getting from Kildare st to Adelaide Rd via St Green East and Easrlsfort Tce.
The new bottle knecks are going to be the already choked Clare St and I dread to see Upper Pembroke St.
Wasn’t Chaos suppossed to be a butterfly fluttering its wings a different direction in the Amazonas?
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Isn’t the area outside the Loretto going to be a contra flow bus lane so the Loretto brigade would have to park in it if they were to pick up their darlings where they do now but that wouldn’t surprise me?
If you want to get to Adelaide Rd you could go around Merrion Square and along all the Fitzwilliam St’s until you are on Adelaide road. Not ideal for a motorist but I think that is the point, make it difficult for motorists travelling trough the heart of the city.
I agree that Pembroke St could become a bit of a nightmare and something should be done at this junction.
One possible solution to the problem is if the DCC gave up the lucrative parking spots on the St Stephens Green East or at least made the cars park parallel to the side of the green and then add another lane to this side of the green for traffic going south. Two going north and one bus and one normal lane going south.
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They are chawing away at the top of Dawson Street also.
– gosh it must be about a year or two since that place was comprehensively “refurbished”, so more and more people could have space, and a new surface, to wait on, to cross the road.
I used to think the Brendan Behan story about the anniversary of the hole was a little fanciful, but no more.No suggestions regarding the 44 and the 48 buses yet.
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Originally posted by dc3
…No suggestions regarding the 44 and the 48 buses yet.Don’t know the routes myself but some people who should are the bus enthusiasts here and they are very quiet on this issue.
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We’re quiet because we don’t have any info on what Dublin Bus are going to do.
If they follow true to normal form, the re-routing will be announced at about 7pm on the day before the changes, there will be no info on the bus stops, and it will be only afterwards that they will actually work out where the buses will stop on the new routings.
Sounds cynical I know, but said from bitter experience . . .
Gabriel
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You predicted correctly Gabriel
Dublin Bus announced their plans a few days ago but they only got coverage yesterday:Buses inbound will operate as follows:
Routes 14-14A-15-15A-15B-15C-44-44C-48A: These routes will turn right off Harcourt Street onto Hatch Street Upper, then onto Hatch Street Lower, turning left onto Leeson Street. They will then turn right onto St. Stephen’s Green East, then left onto St. Stephen’s Green North and then into Dawson’s Street.
Routes 44-44C-48A: These routes will turn right at the bottom of Dawson’s Street to Nassau Street, Leinster Street South and onto their route at Lincoln Place.
Routes 10-10A-11-11A-11B-13B-46-46A-46B: All Xpresso and the above stated routes will turn right from Leeson Street Lower onto St. Stephen’s Green East then onto St. Stephen’s Green North and onto their route on Dawson’s Street.
Route 20B: will turn right at the top of Kildare Street and will operate from St. Stephen’s Green North.
Bus stops have been sited on St. Stephen’s Green North for all of the above routes.
Outbound buses operate as normal.
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Outbound
There is one lane for buses today on the OPW side of the Green. With two new contraflow lanes inbound on the Green side. A plastic divider divides in, from out.
As every outbound bus stops to let off or take on passengers, every bus behind it stops and waits, then when it reaches its stop the buses behind stop and wait…………..there is no possibility of a full bus passing out the queue.
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Yeah, remove or alter the parking on the other side of the street but that would eat into the lucrative parking cash cow. If the parking was removed the bus lane could be widened and a normal southbound lane could be added.
You really have to question the seriousness of the DCC to try and remove unnecessary traffic from inside the canals when they stubbornly keep such parking arrangements.
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Just saw a van parked in the (contraflow) bus lane on St Stephens Green (OPW HQ side) this morning. As it is only one lane wide, all the buses were then blocked for going outwards!
It seemed to have no driver, – perhaps delivering something or other, which cant be too easy there now.Amazingly too a Guard was on the scene and was “looking into it”. Perhaps we should have a hotline number to call a traffic planner.
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Given time they will be able to re-engineer the path down there to make it wider and possibly even cut in a loading bay or two.
They will have to do something to accomodate the buses anyway, if one takes an average bus taking on 10 passengers there will be a backlog just from public transport anyway.
All in all it is working quite well I think, having said that the schools are out what happens in the first couple of weeks in September will be the real test
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I think Luas is taking cars out of the area. I also think the new arrangements are making some people avoid the Stephen’s Green area altogether. For instance, I have to go from Northside to Ballsbridge and avoid the Green in the morning but go that way on the way back home. I’d say the arrangements are cutting about 25 per cent of the normal traffic for that area out of the equation altogether.
You’re right about the time of year though. That’s having a huge impact and I think they need some permanent road markings etc, not just cones by the time September comes around.
The more I see of this, the more I’m convinced City Council are going to go with this permanently. I really don’t think it will be any more chaotic come December than the old way. -
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Hard to judge the impact the Luas has had on trafic yet, we really need to have schools and University fully back before a fair assesment can be drawn.
Undoubtedly Luas has taken traffic from competing bus services but has it reduced cars?
Two obvious points of impact are the removal of the post box near the OPW HQ, – with the one way system the Post cannot collect from it any more.
The path on this side has just been dug up too and there is a new pedestrian crossing being put in near there also, how this is to work with the bus lane / contra flow is interesting. This will stop the traffic dead, particularly the out bus lane and will enhance the tailback into Hume St.
There have been several problems, just due to the narrowness of the out bus lane, – least two complete jams I have seen – as something in the bus lane broke down and could not be passed out and several near accidents,as buses find it hard to make the turn from Hume St while avoiding the plastic barriers and have to make several goes at the corner.
The Lesson St / edge of Green pedestrian crossing is now very dangerous,as long delays here encourge people to chance it.
Nearly always a police presence to stop cars using the bus lane in the rush hour too.
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In general it seems the whole thing is working quite well.
Tweaking rather than abandonment seems to be the way forward.
Not really sure what happened to the promised consultation before the whole thing goes permanent?
Evening tailbacks at top of Pembroke St seem only intermitent. Illegal u-turns by vehicles outside the Shelbourne into Merrion Row are far too frequent.
Bus stops on Green North wrongly placed, Contraflow bus lane down Earlsfort Terrace not yet introduced etc. etc. But this is all fine tuning.I hope they stick to their convictions.
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Couldn’t have asked for worst weather either – same as last year.
As expected the peaceful enclave of Molesworth St is choked now, you can’t even cross the road unless the ped lights on Dawson St hold up the flow. By contrast, Green west is very strange now without traffic noise, it’s almost like the ‘Trinity Effect’ 🙂
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Press Release – St Stephens Green
Permanent Traffic Management Arrangements & Results of
Air Pollution Monitoring Revised traffic management arrangements have been in operation in the St. Stephen’s Green area since early July 2004 to facilitate the reconstruction of St Stephen’s Green West. At that time the City Council indicated that
consideration would be given to maintaining the revised arrangements on a permanent basis.In view of the success of the measures in terms of improved traffic flow and reduced pollution levels the City Council has decided that its preferred option is to maintain the current arrangements with the following modifications:
· St Stephens Green West will be open to vehicular traffic from the junction of Cuffe St./Harcourt St./St. Stephen’s Green South as far as York Street and from the top of Grafton Street as far a Glover’s Alley. The stretch of St. Stephen’s Green West from York Street to Glover’s Alley (i.e. in front of the Royal College of Surgeons) will be closed to traffic. A new plaza will be constructed here.
· Traffic will be able to access St Stephen’s Green West from Cuffe Street and from Harcourt Street.
· A new counter flow bus lane will be constructed on Earlsfort Terrace from the junction with Hatch Street to the junction with St. Stephen’s Green South.
· A new bus turning circle will be constructed at the junction of Grafton Street/St.Stephen’s Green West/St.Stephen’s Green North to facilitate bus/Luas/taxi interchange.
· All nose to kerb parking around St. Stephen’s Green will be replaced by parallel parking.
· Cycling lanes will be provided on all sides of St. Stephen’s Green.
· Pedestrian facilities will be improved.
Since mid July the City Council has been monitoring air pollution levels (i.e.Nitrogen Dioxide & Benzene) at ten locations in the St. Stephen’s Green area. Preliminary results show that compared with a monitoring results for the same locations in 2001 levels of these pollutants have fallen significantly – by 19% on average for Nitrogen Dioxide and by 25% on average for Benzene. This can be attributed to reduced congestion and improved traffic flow.
Dublin City Council intends to engage in a public consultation process in relation to these changes.
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All seems pretty sensible.
I like the point about cycle lanes on all sides of the green but would be mad curious to see where and how these are proposed to work.
It really bugs me when they say it is proposed to consult on all aspects but then don’t reveal the manner or time table for the consultation.
If the only traffic going around the Grafton St corner is going to Glover’s alley then there must be scope to do more with the spare road space here than simply make a turning circle for buses?
BTW I don’t suppose someone could persuade the Stephen’s Green Centre to turn down their Muzak pollution now that it is no longer competing with much traffic noise!
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Originally posted by kefu
· St Stephens Green West will be open to vehicular traffic from the junction of Cuffe St./Harcourt St./St. Stephen’s Green South as far as York Street and from the top of Grafton Street as far a Glover’s Alley. The stretch of St. Stephen’s Green West from York Street to Glover’s Alley (i.e. in front of the Royal College of Surgeons) will be closed to traffic. A new plaza will be constructed here.:D/ That’s great news.
Although, I was hoping that they would have put a plaza at the top of Grafton/SC North, and maybe move the turning circle up just a small bit towards Dawson St – It doesn’t have to be slap bang right beside the Luas stop! Anyone think so?
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My major concern would be that this turning circle would end up being a buspark, where the drivers had their ten-minute break before heading out of town again.
It would be entirely inappropriate for double-deckers to be parking around here and it would be probably worse than the old arrangement where at least the traffic was moving (albeit slowly). -
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@blue wrote:
Great to hear they are removing the “nose to curb parking” too, this makes complete sense.
That nose to kerb parking is a complete disaster and should be removed from all city centre locations, it has a really disruptive effect on traffic as anyone who has ever been around central dublin will know.
Another thing that should be removed from Stphens Green is the plastic divider seperating the different lanes, it really does look cheap and nasty and it is totally wrong for the Green. It also makes it near on impossible for pedestrians to cross.
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St Stephens Green West will be open to vehicular traffic from the junction of Cuffe St./Harcourt St./St. Stephen’s Green South as far as York Street and from the top of Grafton Street as far a Glover’s Alley. The stretch of St. Stephen’s Green West from York Street to Glover’s Alley (i.e. in front of the Royal College of Surgeons) will be closed to traffic. A new plaza will be constructed here.
That’s great news.
Actually, it isn’t good news at all, because once you begin, to see cars ‘excluded’ totally from the equation in some areas, you automatically see environments created on the other end of the spectrum, which exclude the pedestrian and even cyclist altogether,… that is not progress,… but going backways in terms of urban design.
Interestingly the new ‘pedestrian plaza’ on Green West consists of an extended pavement in from of the Royal College of Surgeons.
Well if you look at my observations in relation to Dundrum Shopping Centre,
https://archiseek.com/content/showthread.php?t=3703&page=3
you will notice how in Dundrum, the approach of ‘separation’ of cars from pedestrians is taken to an extreme, whereby cars are totally ignored on one aspect of the site, and it is all chinese rock garden kind of aesthetic,… whereas on the other end of the site,… it is all ‘car city’,… and pedestrians and even cyclists have been just shoved out of the whole equation period. This is the polarity that often happens in today’s road engineering I find,… whereas to do design well, I think you have to accept a bit of both worlds,… to accept that these worlds are going to intersect much more than we are currently willing to accept. It is so funny to see the few cars that do venture down towards the college of surgeon’s, getting really ‘aggressive’ with walkers at the moment,… I see cars beeping an awful lot at the walkers, and it is currently unclear as to who ‘owns’ the territory. As if that was the proper way to go about things,… that you have to either ‘own’ the territory as a car driver, or as a pedestrian, but no in between. The drivers around College of Surgeon’s and the LUAS stop now feel as if they need to hoot and honker, huff and puff a whole lot, to re-establish some of their personal space. The article on Hans Monderman linked over here, is about the best article I have read in a long while, on traffic mixed with people,…
https://archiseek.com/content/showthread.php?t=3896&page=2&pp=25&highlight=monderman
As I said, all over the city, the separation between car and pedestrian, is just so exaggerated as to be ridiculous. I tend to subscribe to the notion, that when you speed up the flow of cars, then the whole traffic system in the city as a whole tends to collapse, and everyone is left waiting in jambs. But if you actually slow down the traffic in general and mix up pedestrians and cars more, the system will manage much, much better as a whole. This seems like a paradox, but recent studies are showing it to be the case. In Ireland, in recent years we have been so busy arguing for faster and faster lanes, speed limits and allowance for car speed all over,… and the system as a whole has just buckled completely. Of course, as soon as you create a car speeding friendly zone, you have to take measures to exclude people from the design altogether, and the car just takes over completely,… that is where your drab, and lifeless environments come from. The trouble I see happening in Dublin, is the hell that is Grafton Street ‘pedestrianisation’ is being allowed to spread out too far altogether,… you already have the pedestrianisation down to the Gaeity, and now all over the Green. All that is happenings is the hell that was Grafton Street pedestrianisation,.. and the extreme separation of cars from pedestrians,… is starting to grow, and it is not an improvement but a dis-improvement in my opinion. I think it is patently wrong that pedestrians are seen to need a totally separate environment of their own – it is something driven mainly by big commerce and a culture of litigation in Ireland. The kind of environment produced when you just have all pedestrians on their own, isn’t really a nice environment at all, or a successful urban experience. Even in the planning of new areas of cities, you see the influence of the car, down through the years,…
https://archiseek.com/content/attachment.php?attachmentid=702
https://archiseek.com/content/attachment.php?attachmentid=701
The ‘Radburn’ example in the linked images, is the one that Hans Monderman thinks was ‘written into’ most traffic guidelines and codes, and re-produced all over the world,… the extreme separation of car and pedestrian. The ‘Radburn’ philosophy comes about, because cars are treated the same way as water flows in a pipe, and that kind of engineering of car traffic, like how large the pipe diameter needs to be etc. As I have mentioned here on the board previously, for every nice spanking new ‘Henry Street’ that Dublin City Council manages to make,… it also has to create a ‘Parnell Street’ rear service entrance to accomodate all of the ‘shit’ that has to happen to service the said high street. So that, one space becomes ‘car hell’ like Parnell Street, while another street, just becomes pedestrian hell, like Grafton Street or Henry Street,… any day I have experienced those places anyhow.
My major concern would be that this turning circle would end up being a buspark, where the drivers had their ten-minute break before heading out of town again.
It would be entirely inappropriate for double-deckers to be parking around here and it would be probably worse than the old arrangement where at least the traffic was moving (albeit slowly).The big question that is raised here, is why do all of the bus routes in Dublin city appear to need to ‘stop’ in the City Centre? Why can you not have a terminus stop, someplace removed far away from the city centre,… and also reduce the amount of space needed in general for buses stopping in the city centre? It seems to me as if most of the great spaces in Dublin city centre are entirely ruled by rows of double deckers,… and yeah, the drivers eating kit-kats. The strongly hierarchial nature of urban city council’s just doesn’t seem to be capable of maximising on what our cities have to offer,…
https://archiseek.com/content/showthread.php?t=4159
An often quoted architectural text from the seventies, Complexity and Contradiction, by Robert Venturi, expresses the point about hierarchies, and such in the following way.
Cleanth Brooks refers to Donne’s art as ‘having it both ways’ but, he says, ‘most of us in this latter day, cannot. We are disciplined in the tradition either-or, and lack the mental agility – to say nothing of the maturity of attitude – which would allow us to indulge in the finer distinctions and the more subtle reservations permitted by the tradition of both-and.’
The tradition ‘either-or’ has characterised orthodox modern architecture: a sun screen is probably nothing else; a support is seldom an enclosure; a wall is not violated by window penetrations but is totally interrupted by glass; program functions are exaggeratedly articulated into wings or segregated separate pavilions. Even ‘flowing space’ has implied being outside when inside, and inside when outside, rather than both at the same time. Such manifestations of articulation and clarity are foreign to an architecture of complexity and contradiction, which tends to include ‘both-and’ rather than exclude ‘either-or.’
Complexity and Contradiction, is actually a nice book to study in the context of urban design in Dublin nowadays. I had almost forgotten totally about that text, but I must say, I have ‘re-visited’ it recently and find it useful, in constructing my ‘thinking’ about urban design.
The real question is what is of higher value another civic space entirely free of traffic or the efficient operation of the 14/14A 15/ 15A 15B 44 48A and only public transport disturbing pedestrians.
‘Either-or’ philosophy? Hmmm,… We need to stop thinking in terms of ‘either-or’ and start learning to think in terms of a ‘both-and’ mind-set. Just my humble opinion. 🙂
Brian O’ Hanlon.
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I saw this scene Brian miles away in a village in the depths of rural Ireland and thought of you 🙂
Have you ever seen a more ridiculous pavement in all your life?!
Instead of making the pedestrian area level with the road and demarcating it in a different colour, a virtual skateboard park was created with undulating concrete to take account of the low doorways.
This pic doesn’t do the craziness justice – fun all the same 🙂 -
Unfortunately you don’t have to travel to any rural villages to see exactly the same kind of mishaps. You only have to look at the current state of things around the Stillorgan shopping centre – I don’t know the exact sequence of development, that Stillorgan village took down over the years, but from my understanding of it – the village of Stillorgan did experience several sequential road building and road alteration projects. As time went on, problems that should have been addressed from the beginning, just kept going ‘un-resolved’, leading to the current state of confusion. What you have left now is a pure obstacle course of different plans, different ideas and nothing really gels. Stillorgan is actually a crazy kind of environment, because you have a tiny village scale in parts, the first Shopping Centre in Ireland, a GAA field and associated properties, a few major car and bus routes, speculative development and residential all knitted together in some kind of weird fashion. You have a lot of open space out there and a lot of opportunities exist to solve the problem well. But I fear, the way that people are going to use these opportunities, is in the typical short-sighted, and ‘my-little-site-on-it’s-own’-kind-of-way. Herman Hertzberger is one of the very few Architects I know, you has seriously faced up to the problem of designing ‘the in-between’ space, as opposed to just designing ‘the object’.
https://archiseek.com/content/showthread.php?t=3933
But getting back to your point on the pavements – Stillorgan – coming from its ancient history as a country village – still manages to sport this very large kind of ‘hump in the road’,… it is a kind of topological feature that really dominates and defines the experience of walking or driving through Stillorgan. And just like the photograph you have shown, most of the architecture flanking this ‘hump in the road’ has adapted to this hump in the road. For the life of me, I just cannot understand, with all of the major road building projects going on all over the country – how that ‘hump in the road’ right in the middle of Stillorgan has managed to go un-noticed for all of these years. The road is far too wide there anyhow, and the parking on either side of the road is a pure mess. It is one of the few places in Dublin, where a pedestrian is not ‘safe’ to cross when a green man lights up. But as I have said, for every nice ‘all-pedestrian’ environment one creates, at the other end of the scale, Dublin City manages to get away with an environment which is exclusively car oriented. The siting of the Ormonde Cinema in Stillorgan is very funny too, as most mothers will park their car in the summertime in the Shopping Centre park, and then the half-dozen or so kids have to ‘run’ across about 5 lanes of car traffic going in two directions, with the added difficulty of this ‘hump in the road’ topography, which makes visibility of oncoming vehicles especially hard to judge. It is so funny, right at this point you have a veritable ‘intersection’ of mums with kiddies running across a road (sweets and fizzy drinks in hand) with practically an ‘Auto-bahn’ running right by. You see, unless, you can manage to view spatial design problems in four dimensions, you just don’t notice things like that. My fear, is that most spatial design students, looking at their projects manage to see their solutions in three dimensions, and that is as far as they get to take it.
The real trouble with everything that has happened to Stillorgan, including the most recent scheme to extend the old 1960s Shopping Centre. Every presentation, perspective view, plan, elevation and representation of the new scheme was very carefully doctored to draw your attention away from this current nasty traffic/pedestrian mess, that exists right along side the proposed new development. No one has ever been commissioned to just model the entire base – the reality of what is actually there – irrespective of property lines, of point of view or special interest. This I feel, is where you do need a government to step in and take the initiative. But as I have already said here, the government aren’t in the business of spatial planning and design – just a few individuals in a very little known profession called architecture, are actually able to wrap their heads around such complex design tasks – and I don’t know to what extent they seem to be able to get into anything at all. I as a kind of person, who knows his way around a spatial design problem or two, I do know perfectly well, that to trully represent many designs, it is not enough just to model and present the proposed ‘Object’ you have to build,… because in fairness, you have to represent the entire picture – the context, into which this development is going to land. The trouble, is that your developer consortium doesn’t want you looking beyong the immediate boundaries. And with the advent of computer graphics visualisation nowadays, which ‘appear’ to present the reality of what will get built – alas – that elusive ‘Fourth’ dimension doesn’t translate through these CG renderings at all. Which is all the more reason CG renders are so popular amongst the developers I fear. I think, the Stillorgan centre renders presented only, what the developers want you to see – when it is plain as a pike-staff out there on the ground, what the real problems are. The same faith fell to Moore Street, which lost it’s chance to gain a suitable entrance space, at the corner with Parnell Street. If you really look at it, you see a pattern emerging all over the city. The planners obviously aren’t able to grasp the spatial subtleties of the various sites either – and something tells me, that developer consortiums have twigged onto this, and have exploited that.
The extent of the definition of spatial design problems, in planning applications is seldom large enough – especially for crucial sites, where doing the right thing has impact on the whole surrounding area. The problem with villages like Stillorgan is repeated all over Dublin City as far as I can see. The only problem is that our spatial planning and design tradition in this country has just been too weak over the years to contribute anything to the debate now. The profession seemingly run by too many old folks, who would rather a quiet evening in their back garden talking to their plants, rather than exert themselves to deal with the actual issues. In relation to Grafton Street, which excludes the automobile altogether, this idea of having armies of pedestrians marching up and down to their own drum beat, supposedly in the name of high street commerce. Dublin City Council seem to be unable any longer, to put that idea back into it’s box – it has escaped – and is totally out of control. It has just gathered it’s own momentum down through the years, as if some ‘bottom-up’ intelligence, in the form of pedestrians were somehow getting back at the automobile for all of the years of suppression. I really think DCC needs to put the lid back on this box, and put a pile of bricks firmly on the lid. The pedestrianisation of Grafton St., was a pretty mess they created, except they are unable to admit that now. I challenge anyone to fairly say, they can ‘walk’ up through Grafton Street on any busy shopping day – and enjoy that experience – I challenge anyone. Total separation of car and pedestrian just tries to solve the issue, by separating the two things altogether – in other words, you avoid dealing with it. In terms of a ‘solution’, total separation is just the lowest common denominator, the lowest rung on the ladder. But heh, we have a long history in the spatial design tradition here of doing just precisely that. As warped and chaotic as they may seem, I actually ‘like’ places like Stillorgan village and even streets like Dame Street here in Dublin. They still represent to me, a problem waiting to be tackled properly and given the attention and care it really does deserve.
Brian O’ Hanlon.
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From this mornings Times:
Upgrade of Luas system before Christmas
Dublin’s Luas system is to be upgraded with a rebuilt Luas stop at St Stephen’s Green, electronic “notice boards” at all stops and new ticket-vending machines at seven stops across both routes. Tim O’Brien reports.
The Railway Procurement Agency (RPA) which advertised phase one of the work on the Government’s e-tendering website this week said “passenger frequency patterns” had dictated the changes.The biggest change will be to the St Stephen’s Green stop where the platform will be widened along its 50-metre length, taking up some of the existing footpath.
The work will include moving the ticket and electronic display machines as well as handrails and fencing.
Also included is the “remodelling” of the concrete base and “recutting and relaying” of the paving. But the tender stipulates that work will be done “while a full tram service operates”.
St Stephen’s Green is the busiest Luas stop with between 20,000 and 30,000 passengers a day.
The tender deadline is September 13th and the RPA believes the undertaking can be completed “in a couple of months”, leaving all work finished by Christmas.
The RPA is also planning to install electronic notice-boards pointing out local “attractors” such as museums, shopping centres and connections to buses and other forms of public transport.
The notice-boards would provide information about the tram stop location and its place in the network.
In addition, stops as Jervis Street, Connolly, Heuston, St Stephen’s Green, Dundrum, Milltown and Windy Arbour are to get new ticket machines, to meet passenger demand.
“Luas Rage” – where passengers miss their tram because the person in front is slow in choosing a ticket – had been mostly resolved by increasing the speed of the ticket machines after the first few months of operation, said RPA spokesman Ger Hannon.
The new ticket machine arrangements reflect user patterns such as the number of people opting for single tickets instead of weekly ones – or vice versa – which the RPA said it could not predict in advance.
“It is difficult to predict the patterns when you get to a very fine grain level,” Mr Hannon said.
The demand for Luas services was very steady throughout the day, particularly on the Green line, he added. “We predicted 20 million passengers and we will do that too.”
© The Irish Times
I also noticed a planning application to convert the old public toilets here into a drivers stationa dn information office.
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