cowboy politics in Sligo

I read about that embarassing fiasco in the Irish Times this morning….what a f***ing disgrace eh!
Jesus the counsillors and TD’s here ARE really bog ignorant cultureless artless f***ers.
Will it ever stop.The people of Sligo should be up in arms.
Where’s An Taisce now when it really matters ….and the Green Party too.

To draw an analogy it ,would’nt it be like the Spanish demolishing a gaff where Lorca lived, or the Scots demolishing a gaff where Robbie Burns lived, or the English demolishing a gaff where Wordsworth lived, or the Yanks demolishing a gaff where Henry Irving lived, or the French demolishing a gaff where Balsac lived …..etc, etc…..
Jesus we are really really stupid here in Ireland.
Who are these Councillors TD’s?….. part of the brown envelope brigade no doubt.

Looks like no leasons have been learned!!

Does anyone know if this building is worth saving??

The people of Sligo clearly belive a radio station is more important an issue to rant over to the rest of the country than this house.

Although a terrible station, i think keeping a station that serves the whole north-west on the airwaves is a bit more important than saving a rather unimpressive building Yeats occasionally stayed in, you cant save everywhere associated with him!

i think the most impressive thing about the house is the site, on top of a hill on the edge of the town centre. the house itself is nothing too impressive but has a nice massive quality, and in a fairly run down state. i would not be against it being replaced with an appropriate building which respects the qualities of the original. although the sad thing is it will probably be replaced by some heap of shite which sprawls all over the site…

also, i think the issue of the radio stationis more important than this house. when people receive nearly all their information from the media then who provides this information is an extremely important issue which affects us whether we know it or not…

Why this lazy campaign to have the state purchase Lisadell? It’s the easy option every time – get the government to dip into our pockets and buy a property. Why not, for once, let the private sector see what they can do? If there really are two or three private parties interested (and this isn’t just propaganda from the seller), why not let them at it? The planning regulations will stop them doing any stupid. Michael Flatley in Cork has proven that the private sector can do a good job at restoring and conserving part of our national heritage, at no cost to the rest of us.

The state already has enough in its possession – including Farmleigh, which should never have been bought because it has no useful purpose and costs millions to maintain. Adding to its portfolio is not a good idea in these straitened times.

I agree about Farmleigh in that the construction of swimming pool in the basement is just too lavish for words, but much more importantly – the house architecturally represents little that is Irish, it is of a standard ‘British Isles Victoriana’, its facade boasting little other than symetrical fenestration, the interior simply representing international luxury.

An Irish-Georgian property should have been selected, or a modern Irish structure custom built (and for a fraction of the cost) that would promote the country to international visitors, which is the purpose of a ‘state guesthouse’.

About Markievicz House – just a jibe about Sligo earlier – but if it is not of architectural importance I agree that the house need not be saved, but the fact that it was listed in the first place would indicate it is of importance. And that it was delisted on a casting vote is utterly disgraceful.
A provision of a 2/3 or 3/4 majority be used in such delisting cases has been promoted for years and never been acted upon.

I think that the fact that the house is linked to Yeats through his grandfather, not even his father – but grandfather is taking ‘our heritage’ one step to far.
What next, preserve the pet shop where he purchased his first budgie?
Really – to preserve a house soley on this reason is just plain silly, if it is architecturally important fair enough and its minor accociations can act as an ice-breaker for its owner’s dinner parties – but thats all!

What ever happened to the good old Anglo-Irish like Lord Ardilaun and Lord Iveagh who gave Iveagh House and St Annes to the State – and didn’t sell them to the highest bidder! (With O’Leary in the grave no doubt).

I don’t believe the state should purchase Lissadell – all the articles about will-they won’t they is just fuelling a lobby for the state to purchase it for a inflated price (which is exactly the same as what happened with Farmleigh – original price €19m – sold to the state for €30m).

If the present owners have any regard for their heritage they will hand the property to the state free-gratis. The state could even let them remain there as life tenents on a peppercorn rent – as long as the state inheritates it upon their death, the upkeep could be looked after by the state.

Don’t give in to blackmail.

Yes I agree, I was an initial supporter of buyng Lissadell but on ‘mature reflection’ I think the house should be released to the private sector. I think it is important that the state own and maintain significant buildings and I would much rather see the resources proposed for Lissadell House (and indeed Farmleigh – a monument to our 90s excess or what!) used to maintain exisiting owned buidlings. Marino Casino springs to mind (as it is my local monument) which last time I saw it looked well in need of lick of paint and some cleaning.

As for this property in Sligo, I agree that it is a disgrace that the building was delisted by casting vote, especially asthe holder of the original casting vote which prevented delisting was on holiday! Thats sounds very suspicious… Its a crying shame.

Whoa there partners……..listing is a dangerous game and I am absolutely against it. In Scotland and until recently it has meant new buildings being built in city centres behind 100 year old facades. Consevation for its own sake stifles creativity and inhibits new architecture and young architects. As I understand it the vote taken was not to
” delist” Markievicz house but not have it included on the proposed Protected Building Register.

Sligo is chock full of places where Yeats lived, slept, ate, wrote, had tea. The building was in a poor stae but sits on a great site, the emphasis should now be on making sure something better goes back in it’s place. The call for An Taisce to do something is premature and frankly scary. The implication that people in Sligo are culturally lacking, is in my experience, patronising

Originally posted by alan d
Whoa there partners……..listing is a dangerous game and I am absolutely against it.

From the non-architects point of view, isn’t the whole point of listing to rein in the extreme edges of the architects imagination.

‘Listing is a dangerous game….’ now there is a dangerous thought! Listing is extremely important. To say it stiffles creativity is rubbish… unlisted sites far outstrip listed sites. There is ample room for architects to express their creativity in Ireland. Listing is a valuable tool which helps to preserve our heritage. Its not all about building new buildings!!

Well if it is then we’re all f***ed

Sorry Stephen, your posting interupet my response to Ewan and you are obviously a serious thinker, so I’ll resond in a more respectful manner.

We’ll all be absolutely f***ed

Why?

exactly. why? listing isnt an obstacle to growth and expression. you quoted scotland as an example. take edinburgh. buildings on princes street have been gutted and facaded retained for good reasons. the character of the city should be retained. all that fabulous stone with centuries of weathering creating a great patina on the stone faces of all those buildings. would you like to see scotts memorial destroyed so that some wanker can stick up a 120metre spike in its place? in that same city, by the queens house (holyrood) the new contreversy-ridden parliament building is under construction. behind that is the dynamic earth pavilion with its great tensile structure. these buildings are inventive, creative, and add to the character of the city, but should never be used as an excuse to rip away centuries of accumulated urban fabric (pardon the buzzword).

ireland is a little island with a hell of a lot of green fields. in a few of these fields are big old houses which used to have rich silly english ppl in them, poking oirish yokels with sticks. if there is a possibility that these buildings may add to the country, preserve much needed cultural heritage, and make a few quid out of fat stupid american pockets, then consideration must be given to keeping them.

curse duchas and an taisce all you like but they are simply expressing a point of view that many ppl in this country hold. more power to them (maybe not, and less power to planners too. why arent architects in government?)

exactly. why? listing isnt an obstacle to growth and expression. you quoted scotland as an example. take edinburgh. buildings on princes street have been gutted and facaded retained for good reasons. the character of the city should be retained. all that fabulous stone with centuries of weathering creating a great patina on the stone faces of all those buildings. would you like to see scotts memorial destroyed so that some wanker can stick up a 120metre spike in its place? in that same city, by the queens house (holyrood) the new contreversy-ridden parliament building is under construction. behind that is the dynamic earth pavilion with its great tensile structure. these buildings are inventive, creative, and add to the character of the city, but should never be used as an excuse to rip away centuries of accumulated urban fabric (pardon the buzzword).

ireland is a little island with a hell of a lot of green fields. in a few of these fields are big old houses which used to have rich silly english ppl in them, poking oirish yokels with sticks. if there is a possibility that these buildings may add to the country, preserve much needed cultural heritage, and make a few quid out of fat stupid american pockets, then consideration must be given to keeping them.

curse duchas and an taisce all you like but they are simply expressing a point of view that many ppl in this country hold. more power to them (maybe not, and less power to planners too. why arent architects in government?)

I told you why Stephen, too much emphasis on the past is detrimental to cultural development, it’s also saying we have no future. That’s my experience

Ireland has great contemporary architects, look at the AIA Awards. What needs to be encouraged is an environment in which the very best is expected in everything we build , not a method where buildings of tenous historical interest or limited architectural value are kept at all cost. In my view a building that has lost it’s purpose can be taken away as long as something better is put back in it’s place.

The listing process starts as protection of heritage, whatever that is and ends up unable to discriminate, so that every thing over 100 years old is kept. A progeressive culture stagnates under these conditions.

As for you SW101, you need to go lie down.

The problem with this opinion Alan is that is all very subjective. Who says this building is of tenous historical interest or limited architectural value. Is that your view? In which case, do you accept that others might have an opposing view, indeed that a majority might have an opposing view.

As for protecting our heritage… of course this is important! Surely you as an architect would like to think that one of your designs might last the test of time to be appreciated and used by later generations.

I don’t know the merits of this specific building…maybe it is unworthy of being listed. The fact is however it was listed, so a majority somewhere, at some time, obviously felt it was worth keeping. The manner of its delisting looks very underhand which doesnt suggest that Sligo Council have the highest standards in mind when replacing it.

Originally posted by alan d
The listing process starts as protection of heritage, whatever that is and ends up unable to discriminate, so that every thing over 100 years old is kept. A progeressive culture stagnates under these conditions.

One of the reponsibilities of being an independent State (as opposed to an annexed territory) is that you don’t receive handouts from the mother nation (don’t start on the EU, when you factor in the fish that the Spanish have stolen, we’ve been net contributors for many years).

Accordingly, you have to consider all sources of income and heritage attracts tourists. I will concede that perhaps a striking modern building will attract the attention of tourists also but in less numbers and that presumes that all modern buildings carry the status of ‘striking’.

But then, I’m obviously not a serious thinker.

ok. i lay down in my clinical white box which i built atop the rubble of some georgian kip that used to site here. damn it was inspiring. what ever happened to naz? at least he was amusing

Stephen, I’m speaking from experience and work with listed buildings, some Grade A listed, all the time. The listing assessment starts of as a means of protecting important buildings then ends up as a process by which development is curtailed. You cannot still remove a building in Glasgow’s city centre and build new. That’s crazy. Consequently, there are few architects in Scotland that can design on a city block scale not because they don’t have talent, they don’t have the experience

The most significant modern work in architecture comes today from Holland and in particular Rotterdam also Berlin and from cities that were flattened during world war two.

There will always be people who think old building good, new building bad, that was true when Wren built St Paul’s, or when Mackintosh worked in Glasgow. He gave up and moved to France to paint and it killed him in the end, yet he is our most revered architect

What’s needed are informed and interested people within the community, who volunteer or are elected, included as part of the legal process to assess sensitive building proposals and judge what gets planning or what can be removed .

That group should include architects, planners, business people, conservationists, community activists, local people, the hug a tree society councillors.

The most significant buildings in Sligo, the Court House and Council Buildings, for example and the ones top of the tourist must see list, were built with no reference what so ever to the town context. The important thing is, as I’ve said, if a building is removed then something better is put back in it’s place.

SW101, you’re a nutcase.

Preserving ‘old’ buildings is not just about preserving heritage, history etc etc.
It is vital to appreciate that structures of Georgian and Victorian nature will never be built again. The level of craftmanship, the expertise, attention to detail and the fundamental quality of their hand produced features is highly unlikely to be ever revived.

Now one can easily counter-act that arguement by saying the buildings we’re building today will never be built to the same manner again – but the level of individualism and the use of materials that would be prohibitively expensive today in older buildings is gone forever.
Short of a social revolution we will never achieve the quality of times past in quite the same way again.
Of course the Victorians also used mass production, but only in furnishings etc, their buildings were painstakenly constructed and finished by hand.

This reason however is only part of why we should be preserving and listing, and merely serves to reinforce the other points so well articulated by Stephen C.

Graham, I pass on the benifit of what I’ve learned in twenty years of working in a city that has the most complete Victorian Urban grid in the world.

Before Glasgow was a great Victorian City though it was a great Georgian City, much like Dublin. The Victorians wiped it all clear, without looking over their shoulder. Some of it well crafted, most of it commercially driven 19th century tat.

Listing for it’s own sake causes more problems than it solves. I guess though you’ll have to learn that out for yourself

Cities evolve and change, thats how it should be

But the difference today is that there is now a clear line in the sand as to what is considered ‘historic’ and what is ‘modern’.
The Victorians did not appreciate Georgian townhouses and their classical forms etc largely because they were so overwhelmed in classical tradition themselves, whereas today we are significantly more appreciative due to the evolution of modern forms in the meantime.
It must also be remembered that most Georgian stock by the 19th century was in a less than perfect condition, and were not nearly as adaptable to new uses – or easily upgraded as they are today with our modern comforts.
There is no doubt in the world that so much of Georgian Ireland and Britain was destoyed by Victorian commercial interests, caused largely however through ignorance, they viewed Georgian stock in a similar light to how Victorian buildings were seen by post-war society in the 50s & 60s – old, decrepid & unsuitable for modern living.

@Paul Clerkin wrote:

The 19th century house, situated in a prominent position overlooking Sligo harbour, became the subject of debate in recent weeks when a recommendation by Sligo County Manager, Mr Hubert Kearns, to delist the building was rejected by the council on the casting vote of the Sinn Féin Mayor, Alderman Sean McManus.

At last night’s meeting of the council, Fianna Fáil and Fine Gael councillors, who voted to have the building delisted, submitted a rescinding motion, in the absence of Alderman McManus, who is out of the country on holiday. The motion was carried by six votes to five.[/b]

http://www.ireland.com/newspaper/ireland/2003/0729/2368393709HM3SLIGOHOUSE.html

The factions:

http://www.sligoborough.ie/downloads/councilmeetings/Annualmins03.pdf

A further poll took place with resulted as follows :
For Cllr. Lyons : Cllr. Cummins, Ald. Devins, Cllr. Dolan,
Cllr. Lyons, Cllr. McLoughlin, Cllr. O&#8217]

https://archiseek.com/content/showthread.php?p=19938#post19938

http://www.unison.ie/sligo_champion…&issue_id=10145

For ( Hooray)

Ald. D Bree, Clr.V. Cawley, Clr. A. Gibbons,
Clr. C Macmanus, Ald. S Macmanus

Against ( Boo Hiss )

Clr. T Cummins, Clr. J Devins, Clr.S. Dolan,
Clr. M. Lyons, Clr. T McLoughlin.
[/QUOTE]

There was a very clear pattern for two groups to vote in completety contrasting directions on exactly the same issue. :confused: