Bertie’s Bowl….Sports Campus Ireland
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Should B..B..Bertie’s Bowl or Sports Campus Ireland be built. I reckon that it should….most definitely. Ignore the poor mouths who are knocking it and who always seem to surface when something like this comes about.It will be of great benefit to the whole of the country especially in the long term future. It’s an opportunity not to be missed for sport here.
Greg- stop knocking the Taoiseach’s Stutter (which no-one has heard since the early 90’s anyway). Not that I am being pc or anything – its not really a valid point (Just as much as Ruari Quinn’s and Michael Noonans Baldness isn’t either).
I agree with the stuff about the Stadium though – but I think that going out to Blanchardstown for an international will reduce some of the fun and air of tradition around a rugby match.
Have to say GregF, I don’t agree with you on this one for a number of reasons.
The price tag of this ‘facility’ is already tagged at £350 million pounds MINIUMUM to the exchequer (So Far), NOT including £100 million to re-locate govt. agricultural labs!
The development includes among others, a ‘Velodrome’ (one of those circular cycling tracks). Do we really need this??? I’m sure it will cost a fortune – for something that seems entirely surplus to our needs in a county as small as Ireland and, I feel would have very limited recreational value. People will stay close to home to cycle, and will probably not want to drive for miles down the motorway to cycle in circles.The ‘Olympic sized pool’ – Lots of people of all ages can enjoy swimming. If there is not one already (a 50-meter version) and lots of national (and international) swimming competitions could be held in it, then yes, build it. Lots of people could enjoy the facility and if competitions were held there, lots of people would be interested in watching, on T.V. or as spectators. I do not think the same could be said about a Velodrome.
The stadium – 80,000 seater & a 15,000 person capacity area for something else. Why do we need this when we already have Croke Park and Landsdowne Rd.??? not to mention the other smaller venues of Dublin. There is still ONLY a (widely dispersed) population in Ireland of 3.6-7 million. Not exactly the ‘critical mass’ for 3 -plus large stadia in Dublin alone.
Why plonk a huge traffic generator like the government is proposing out of the city and on the junction of a national motorway route (M50) and the N3, when people will be forced to drive there?
I’ve seen two of these types of stadia in New York – huge stadiums sitting in an ugly sea of an even bigger car park bounded by an ugly highway. Everybody arrives by car and then post match the crowds dissipate by car. No excitement or business present that would be associated with post-match games in a city. But why bother learning from others’ mistakes?If a large and substantial rail and bus station was an element of the proposal I mightn’t object so strenuously.
Is the whole development some kind of slow, insidious march towards an ‘Olympic Bid’ for the country? If so, why… we wouldn’t be gaining any kind of worldwide recognition that we don’t really already have. It doesn’t look as if, we’d get any kind of useful infrastructure/facility (besides a 50m. pool and some other smaller stuff) been built – using the Olympics as an excuse – e.g. something that could be used by all, was really useful, didn’t have already, and is generally expensive – like a 50m. pool, a light rail line, high speed rail line or some kinds of specialist facilities.
It might be an idea to build ‘Sports Campus Ireland’ (minus the stadium?) somewhere besides Dublin and use the surplus money from not paying Dublin prices to add value. E.g. put it in/ beside Galway or Limerick etc. and build (a proper c.100-125MPH/ 160-200 Km/h) high -speed rail line to Dublin.
Everybody usually has to travel to Dublin by rail and bus to Landsdowne Rd. or Croke Park – so why not turn the tables and give some of the benefits of development to another city? This will also help take some of the pressure off Dublin. Simultaneously, it could strengthen the economic potential of the west or midlands region.Dublin already has many developmental problems, so have the West and MidLands cities/ regions for different reasons, why compound them? I hope Bertie uses his brain and makes the best of this opportunity.
DARA
P.S. See for more details of ‘Sports Campus Ireland’ – http://www.thestadiaofireland.com/ & in the Irish Times – Ireland section – Jan. 24 & Feb. 23 + Opinion Section – Jan. 29.
lets be honest, bertie is not doing this for the good of the country – this is self-grandisement in the style of Monsieur President Mitterand of France
Well I think it would be of enormous benefit for the whole of the island. The cost is only a fraction of the budget. It will be magnificent for Irish sport …a Mecca…a Temple…and maybe it wiil encourage the couch potatoes to get up off their arses and actually participate in sport instead of watching it on the telly or more typically in the pub.
I watched the last part of the Late Late Show on Friday and the Minister of Sport McDaid was on and of course he was singing it’s praises. (I don’t support Fianna Fail…never have ..never will) However the show degenerated into one of those typical shows that we have seen down through the years. Remember all those debates over the years about the legalization of contraceptives, divorce, the Lotto,The Last Temptation of Christ etc…and how the audience would comment that ‘we dont want it here’ as it would have a detrimental effect on sacred little insular frugal Irish society. Well the same occured on Friday……florid faces ranting…it’s a waste of money…what about the homeless,what about the drugs problem, what about the hospital waiting lists, what about me mother inlaw…blah blah. Again, it was embarassing. McDaid replied that capital is been spent all round and in certain cases hospitals often return surplus funding. Another point he made too was that when ever the likes of a drug rehabilitation centre or a travellers halting site or anything for the unfoutunates of society is to be built in an area such so called ‘bleeding heart’ locals refuse point blank.Anyway, why not spend, spend, spend and build it, there is enormous potential….All sorts of events could be staged bringing in masses ammounts of revenue for the economy. The European Championships, European Cup Finals, Rugby World Cups…even the Olympics ….and why not? Look at the recent Odyssey Centre too that has recently been built up north. Full attendences at the ice hockey events. It is an enormous success.
The thing with us Irish is when we finally get anything it is only then that we realize how did we ever do without it. We are happy to make do with anything for the time, fear of change and the sense of the new, living miserable lives with only the drink as our entertainment dimming the brain to numb the pain.
When the stadium et al is complete I bet the public will then say ‘ah sure is’nt it wonderful’.To add Landsdowne Road is a ramshackle kip, it is an embarassing eyesore.I am fed up making excuses to any foreign guests who pay a visit for a game. To redevelop it no doubt would meet objections from the locals hence the Abbotstown green field site proposal. Croke Park is out of bounds due to the GAA’s archaic gombeen ethos. Why build it in Dublin? …well it is the capital, has better infrastructure and almost half the population of the country live here.
Also the late president of France did wonders for the city of Paris continuing their tradition of grandiose urban design….and Parc de France is a magnificent arena.
No harm either if Bertie tries in some way to emulate him.[This message has been edited by GregF (edited 27 February 2001).]
Yes, Dublin is the Capital, and is and should remain the most important city of the country. It does have plenty of problems however associated with development e.g. the huge increase in car use – I’d hate to see yet more moves towards car dependency.
One of my key objections to the proposal is on a national strategic level. All development seems to be far too heavily weighed towards the East Coast i.e. the greater Dublin area. Many people seem to claim that ‘the west’ is dying and has not seen the benefits the ‘Celtic Tiger’. If Bertie was thinking strategically, he might find he’d gain lots of votes for say, the entire west coast region by making a big deal out of putting some of the larger parts if the proposal in the west (Galway City) and saying it represented his commitment to people in the country outside the Dublin region. I would have thought he’d gain more political gain and credo by doing that then from a relatively few extra local votes from local constituents (who see plenty of development left, right, and centre anyway).In population terms Dublin does represent the greatest catchment area of the country by far so, it might make sense to place most of the proposed facilities that would be in generally continuos use for ordinary purposes and also for special events somewhere in Dublin.
The stadium, and maybe some associated developments, perhaps the velodrome, science and medical centre and the athletes’ village could be located somewhere besides Dublin.
1. The stadium would probably not be in continuos use and would only be used for special events e.g. matches – so the needs for a catchement area would be less.
2. Irish athletes are not flush with money as far as I know so they might welcome the chance of living somewhere cheaper and, to a certain extent mightn’t care where the facilities are once they are provided. Also, if a running track were to be provided in the stadium the runners would benefit as well by having the stadium outside Dublin.I am still very dubious about the need for another full sized stadium in any case, but in general I don’t have any objections to money been spent on the other proposals which would be long–term and tangible assets for the country.
I do not have any special affinity for the west or the midlands either – so that’s not why I suggested them, as I said, I’m trying to think strategically.DARA
One reason why croker wouldn’t do as national stadium is the lack of an athletics track and as the minister said the fact that the locals just would not tolerate the massive increase in visitors that a national stadium would draw (and i don’t blame them)
There was talk of lowering the pitch and removing some of the perimiter seating to try and fit a track in but if the locals are going to object then thats that out the window.
I think Stadium Ireland is a great project, its location is just right and if were to believe the minister there will be either a light rail or metro link to the city centre. There would have to be some kind of rail link anyway as the M50 is chocked with traffic already.
Its success though hinges on the FAI joining in , and i really hope they will ditch eircom park for the national stadium – this would leave them to put all the capital that would be spent on eircom park in to the “grass routes”.
Apparently the campus will have two thirds of the facilities necessary to host the olympics, i don’t know maybe hosting the olympics is just some pie in the sky dream that some of us harbour but we’re such an odd little country we just might be able to pull it off.Why shouldnt it be built in Dublin – putting it in Galway would not make any economic sense – and would overload the 1 rail link to the city so that would be a non starter. Also if they want to have concerts there who is going to put up all the people who want to go theire from Dublin.
And its not in Berties constituency either.
Another reason why Croker is not suitable is the fact that its owned by a bunch of Bigots who wont allow soccer to be played there.
The Abbottstown site would have to have either a Metro or other heavy rail link – a light rail line would not really have sufficient capacity.
I know the M50 is already badly congested, that is my concern about adding another significant ‘traffic generator’ to it.
If an Olympic bid was used as an excuse for the stimulus of more development of community facilities – that would be good – but, I don’t see any other particular reason for hosting it in the immediate future. That is, considering the significant cost risks associated with it – Calgary was still paying for theirs well over a decade later.
The stadium doesn’t necessarily have to be located in Galway, it could be Limerick? Either way, more rail links could be provided as the government spends precious little on rail outside Dublin anyway.
If some of the proposals e.g. the stadium/track, athletes village etc. were built in a regional city, hotels etc. would spring up to accommodate them. If very good rail and bus facilities were provided, then a lot of the need for accommodation would be negated – otherwise more jobs and investment could be created on foot of the development in a place that needs it more than Dublin.If Abbottstown is not Berties constituency, well it would still make him and his party ‘look good’ to Dublinites in that region of Dublin.
Is there any particular reason why anybody would object to a regional city getting the stadium and some associated developments (don’t just mention –‘’cos Dublin is the capital’)?
I still think some of the proposals i.e. the pool and some of the more frequently used types of facilities could be located in Dublin to make use of the catchment area.
try: –
http://www.geocities.com/bishlit
It was also confirmed that award-winning German Architects, Behnisch, Behnisch and Partners have won their bid to develop the 500 acre site.
The first www address below (to an Irish Times article) contains an artist’s impression of the stadium.
http://scripts.ireland.com/search/highlight.plx?TextRes=stadium%20&Path=/newspaper/opinion/2001/0124/opt2.htm
http://scripts.ireland.com/search/highlight.plx?TextRes=stadium%20&Path=/newspaper/ireland/2001/0223/hom2.htmAn architects panel is to be appointed by Campus and Stadium Ireland Development Ltd. (CSID), to “ensure that each individual elements of the Campus were of the highest design standards, while still fitting in to the overall coherence of the framework plan.”
The unveiling of these plans coincides with the granting of planning permission by Fingal County Council, for the ‘Pool at Abbottstown’ which is the Government’s highest priority in lieu of the fast approaching Special Olympic World Games, 2003.[This message has been edited by DARA H (edited 28 February 2001).]
Frank McDonald has an article in the Irish Times today about the Luas project and says that if it were been done in France there would be fanfare and celebration as the work proceeds…the same could be said if a similar project to Sports Campus Ireland were being built in France. But alas a substantial aspect of our beligerant moany ignorant Irish public cannot see the the wonderful benefits of such ‘grand projets’.
With the greenfield out of the way site let’s hope the architects run riot and come up with something dazzling.Thats because we Irish are great at begrudging and badmouthing everything. I think that we cant believe in something until it happens, Frank McDonald is quite correct about the lack of fanfare. But look at what happens about infrastructure being built in this country –
1) Proposal stage – comments of “it’ll never happen”
2) Vested interests stage – nobody does anything for the good of their town or country and tries to screw as much compensation out of the infrastructural development, or the AA (selfish bastard in a car society) moan about roads being dug up for the Luas and they cant drive everywhere anymore.
3) Huge delay due to selfish interests stage (I think that speaks for itself) by which time costs rise 10 fold, dodgy rezoning decisions etc
4) Scaled down version is built – starts off well but rapidly becomes overloaded due to the fact that it wasnt built right in the first place (cf M50 Motorway)
5) People moan about it the – “I knew it would be a disaster stage”Hence people do not want to build anything in this country.
Sometimes you just want to give up.
Hmmm, expected something a bit more radical from Behnisch – but they probably have their hands tied by stadium “specialists” who say that things have to be done in a particular way.
Of course we’re going through all this with the English National Stadium at Wembley (N. Foster with a team of aforesaid stadium specialists). Same story: ever-rising costs, huge controversy, problem of incorporating athletics, worries over location etc etc.
The French, of course, know what to do: they took a wrecked post-industrial suburb, built a superb stadium there and two metro stations to serve it, all in double-quick time. Voila: the Stade de France. It all seems so easy when you have a dirigiste regime.
Behnisch is not designing the stadium – or any other buildings at Abbotstown for that matter. He has been appointed as overall architectural and environmental framework planner for the 500-acre campus.
The previous image (it was never intended to be anything more than that) of the proposed stadium, prepared by Scott Tallon Walker last year, is no longer valid.
A design, build, finance, operate and maintain competition among seven bidders is currently underway to procure the stadium and other buildings. Architects competing include Auer und Weber, Gerkan Marg, Dominique Perrault, Jean Nouvel, Hopkins, Rogers, Grimshaw, as well as STW, Murray O’Laoire, BDP, etc. The first phase of the competition, when the competing consortia are whittled down to three, will terminate in April. The overall winner of the second-stage competition will be announced by June.
Only at that stage will we know what the stadium is likely to look like.
Thanks Shane: that’s a relief. Or at least,I hope it’s a relief: is this bidding process being conducted according to architectural merit, I wonder, or according to the size of the bank balances of the consortia involved?
It reminds me of all those shopping-centre competitions where architects are yoked with developers, with the consequence that design quality comes a poor second to size of financial inducement being offered. Anyone know how the process works for this project?
Transparently or otherwise?The list for panel 2 (the usual suspects) Sport what sport?
1 Benson & Forsyth
2 Bucholz McEvoy
3 Caruso St. John
4 De Blacam & Meagher
5 De Paor Architects
6 Derek Tynan
7 Fagan Kelly Lysaght
8 Future Systems
9 Grafton Architects
10 Gordon Murray & Alan Dunlop
11 Hassett Ducatez
12 Henchion Und Reuter
13 McCullough Mulvin
14 McGarry Ni Eanaigh
15 MV Cullinan
16 O’Donnell & Tuomey
17 Paul Keogh
18 Sauerbach Hutton
19 Shay ClearyI liked Frank McDonald’s comment today – my italics:
“However, Irish architects do feature strongly on a subsidiary panel for smaller projects on the 500-acre Abbotstown site. It is, of course, entirely coincidental that they include all the member firms of Group 91, the consortium involved in Temple Bar, as well as newer talents such as Tom dePaor, Hassett Ducatez and Bucholz McEvoy.”
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