Ugly buildings

I have to disagree with you there. The central bank is a quality building, looking as fresh today as it did when it was built. I love the dramatic overhangs, the deeply recessed windows, the chunky, yet elegant, bronze hangers… I went to Dublin in January with 60 other architecture students from all over England and Scotland, and the vast majority were very impressed by the Central bank, along with temple bar etc.

[This message has been edited by BTH (edited 10 June 1999).]

Regarding ugly buildings the one building which I would nominate is the Mother of Divine Grace Catholic Church in Raheny, near Raheny crossroads. It is totally out of scale with the neighbouring buildings, not that I have anything against tall buildings. It is more suited to being a hangar for a stealth bomber aircraft than as a place of prayer and reflection. The triangular mish-mash at the front of this monolithic mess is very demanding on the eye. To me this building is a good metaphor for how the Catholic Church was all powerful in the 1960’s. It reflects how dictatorial Archbishop John Charles McQuaide was to his flock and society in general, not to mention his egotism. The interior of this church resembles more a warehouse than the House of God. Forklift trucks and wooden pallets would look more at home here than church furniture. I feel that this building is a good candidate for demolition.

Originally posted by Philip Gerken
What about the Central Bank on Dame Street, it has no form whatsover….

I completely disagree with you about this comment. I think it is one of the most striking buildings in Dublin. I preferred it before they altered the roof thought. I liked the way its structure was bare for all to see.

I really like the overhangs too. The work they did at the front to fence off the steps was excellent. Wasn’t it supposed to be a few floors higher?

Central Bank is one of the only decent buildings built in Dublin in the last 40 years – it is SS’s masterpiece, and a wonder of engineering in construction. It’s also perfectly fitting for those who reside in it.

If you want to see an ugly building go around the corner from Central Bank and check out Hawkins house – a cliche I know – but it is the most seriously ugly building we have.

Any news on it’s refurbishment? The plans were unveiled years ago (think either OMS or Murray OLaoire?!?) – but no movement… story?

As for CB supposed to be higher – the roof was in direct contravention of the planning permission of the time, but as the building was built from “the top down” the roof was the first thing installed and so to compromise the cladding was left off the roof – but “leaks” years later meant the roof got finished off to some degree (and quite visible it is throughout Dublin).

The building as it stands now is exactly as was on the builders’ plans (roof and all), but rather different to the plans submitted for planning permission.
The building is 25 years old this year. Design work started in 1970 and construction (minus the roof) finished in 1978. I can’t think of a better looking building from that decade anywhere else in Dublin.

here here, the central bank is the best building in dublin city (even if it was spawned by that philistine stephenson) it is by far the most interesting and daring building ever to be ‘allowed’ into Dublin.
The public space in front of it was the most succesful int the whole city and the steps were used by a wide range of dubliners (not just rocker kids) as a meeting point, making it a public place in the most real sense. Only what did they do to it? f**k it up by putting railings around the steps so the bankers could feel slightly less intimidated as they walked up the steps to their jobs. and dont get me started on the design of mentioned railings, as far as i remember it was sam stephensons office who was credited with the works on the site notice. could it be true? was this the final joke by sam at the expense of the city of dublin?

What? you’re a continual source of mystery. What I think you’ll like you don’t and the reverse. The central bank building may be daring but is also most intimidating, don’t know how you can argue against that?

Sam Stephenson has always been dead sharp, so why the “philistine” sobriquet?

I think that the railings on front of the bank ruin the whole ‘public space’ completely.

maybe personal opinon overrode reasoning in that post. My opinion of sam stephenson is largely based on an arrogant televison appearence by him some years ago and a lecture i attended by him more recently. In the tv appearence he came accross as largely unappologetic for his major part in ravaging a priceless historic part of dublin and erecting his infamous ‘bunkers’ design, the insensitivity of which (in all aspects) i have yet to see rivalled. At the lecture i attended a couple of years ago he systematically went through movements in art and architecture over the past century and un-constructively criticised them. no positives or alternatives offered, just unbeleivably arrogant and, on the face of it ignorant statements. eg. (quote from memory)’picasso was a perfectly adequate painter until he saw cubism coming and jumped on the bandwagon’ and how ‘hadid’s paintings were a complete waste of time’. im all for criticsm, but when it is dne in a manner where there seems to be no reason other than venting anger i can but question the intelligence of that person.
on the central bank, i will admit to having a romanticised idea of this building. i love the way it looms over the roofs of all the other buildings when seen from christchurch end of dame street. i admire the success that was the decission to carve out a space between the other buildings on dame street and create a proper public space in dublin, successful because of its prominence and position. i enjoy walking under the massive over hangs (wind tunnels as they may be) and looking up as they reach over almost touching the older roofs accross the streets.
this is a personal taste one more than most as youll see fromthe other posts above. you either love it and pick out the positives or hate it and see the negatives. overbearing or encompassing? up to you

Sam’s Central Bank has grown on me over the years. What I really like about it is those hanging cables stretching like guitar strings keeping the floors up – a great example of architecture and visible structural engineering -for the pits of a building just walk around the corner from the Central Bank and view Blooms Hotel – a great example of 70s 9 inch cavities at their pinacle.

I’ve never been convinced myself about Picasso’s life drawing What?

Anyway, don’t we like our architects to be opinionated and objectionable at times, as long as it’s done with humour.

Having sat though Gehry, Hopkins, Rogers, Graves, Herzog and de M, and so many more til my backside felt like a length of plywood , gimme someone who can make you laugh and provoke anytime.

alan,i know it sounds hard to believe, but the comments on picasso etc. were not said as some ironic joke. they were said in all seriousness by a man who came accross as embittered because he was on the downhill slope of his career. and provocation is fine but we dont have to like the person who does it.

and at the risk of sounding harsh if i wanted to laugh id go to a comedy show.

while we are on the topic of ugly buildings, is your yaught project going to built? only messing i think it looks very interesting and quite sophisticated (from what i acn see in the images on this site) plus the drawings look really great and emotive. unlike most hand drawings these days which look dated and naff. do you do them or does someone in your office?

I think the bollocking Sam gets for the bunkers is a case of shooting the messenger – if you want to blame someone for the civic offices it should be Frank Feely & co – they comissioned it, they could have said no to the design!

Yes they are awful buildings but blame where blame is due!

The problem What? was trying to get the sea looking cold enough and yes they are my drawings.

As for ugly buildings, you’re not a member of An Taisce by any chance?

Thought you might like to see this.
It really shows you how daunting the Central Bank is.

http://www.dublintown.net/centralbankl.html

Yup. Central bank. Shite. Pure and unadulterated.

Exposed structure maybe. Exposed lack of skill or imagination. Most definitely. Most people i’ve heard defending it are entrenched dubs who grew up drinking under it or getting mugged in the laneways that surround it. As a blow in i must say my first, second, and all impressions of it are close to revulsion.

Here’s to the day i get my last impression of it as they dismantle it piece by clunky piece

A few points on the Central Bank:

1) at least it is interesting – most of the dross that passes for office architecture in this town is dull to the point of narcolepsy – see Lower Mount Street for example. I think the fact that the building is hung from the roof structure shows a trace of imagination dont you thinK?

2) the railings – I think that it is only fair to the employees that they don’t have to walk through groups of goth kids sitting on the steps or flying at them on skateboards or winos drinking, puking etc on the steps. Since these ‘members of society’ have acted in the way that they did – the railings had to go up. I wouldn’t like to have to deal with this every day on my way in and out of work, it IS intimidating – would you?

I don’t want to sound like a Stephenson apologist – but I think a lot of the criticism is misguided and over the top on this point

I agree Rory. Out of order. Not architectural critisism at all , more the stuff you see scrawled on a bog wall.

Easy to be hyper critical when you don’t show your own work innit?

I’ve got my hat handy SW101 and I’m ready to eat it ……..lets see yer stuff, then?

Crayon images always show up well on line

i have to say rory, that i think the railings are about more than the workers feeling slightly uneasy on their way up the steps to work. without being over the top i think they represent an attitude towards the city. what was a very popular civic space is railed off and privatised. whats more important the feelings of a few suits (who didnt really have to go near the bums with the width of those steps) or the value of in my opinion the best public space we had? aside from that i think the design is one of the most woeful peices of urban design this side of the eighties. if you want to see some my work there is a picture in the property section of last wednesdays irish times. ooo the mystery!

Originally posted by Rory W
A few points on the Central Bank:

2) the railings – I think that it is only fair to the employees that they don’t have to walk through groups of goth kids sitting on the steps or flying at them on skateboards or winos drinking, puking etc on the steps. Since these ‘members of society’ have acted in the way that they did – the railings had to go up. I wouldn’t like to have to deal with this every day on my way in and out of work, it IS intimidating – would you?

Firstly I think it is important that you should realise that there is a large difference between goths and skateboarders, both of whom I should say have just as much right to the city as the bankers do. Secondly I think that you should also realise that ‘members of society’ such as winos puking on the steps have often ended up in this situation through no fault of their own. To rail off these areas is to live in a city where nothing happens, a world where you do not have to think. This sort of world is more like an artist impression of an urban area than reality. The attitude shown to our public spaces in the urban areas of this country are getting out of control and very worrying. Last summer I was in Placa dels Angels in Barcelona. This is the plaza where Richard Meier’s Museum of Contemporary Art is situated. There were skaters enjoying themselves by interpreting the city in an imaginative way. The only time I saw a security guard was when they came out for a cigarette. This is not to say that the skaters were the only ones in the plaza. There were people sitting, children playing, people just walking through and the restaurants had seats outside on the plaza (where I watched this spectacle from). Finally I don’t find this sort of activity intimidating whatsoever. The more that different activities are segregated and outlawed within the city the less understanding we have of them. The more this happens the more we will feel intimidated by them.

The railings destroy the architecture of the flights of steps – as to their necessity I just don’t know.

I like the Bank, but hate its location.
It is in the Roches category of landing from outer-space,only 65 million times worse.

It crashes down into the city, and to this day it still looks so obvious that a terrace of buildings were demolished to make way for it on Dame St, this gaping wound in the streetscape is the worst aspect of the building.
The original proposal to retain the facade of the Commercial Buildings and others and to have a large archway through to the plaza would have addressed this.

The pathetic ‘replica’ of the Commercial Bldgs that’s there now should never have been built, it virtually overlaps the Bank and destroys the symmetry of the public space, with a st running down the left-hand side and this lump of clinical rubbish on the other.

Some views of the roof trusses look interesting – like from the Ha’penny Bridge – but from most areas of the city it is a cluttered mess.
It is the finest building from its time in the city, just the location is ludicrous.

It would look fantastic if it was Cork County Hall, sitting in the middle of the field – its current position is utterly out of context.

I agree with you about the commercial buildings replica. I once heard that when the original was dismantled most of the bricks went missing so that is why most of the building (the door looks original) is a fake. I suppose it was a bit of a joke moving it in the first place anyway so it was always going to be a replica after it had been dismantled from its original spot.

I always thought the door was original as well – its the only decent part of the building.

Every piece of the original was numbered and catalogued as it was dismantled, for future reconstruction. What a disgrace pieces went missing – I always thought they just couldn’t be bothered carefully rebuilding and so threw up this entirely new structure in its place.

I have to say I really like this building. I like the way it towers over its environs and really does provide a focal point to that part of Temple Bar. I have to agree with Graham’s comments though – the Commercial Buildings are a sham. Maybe if the facade was recontructed it wouldn’t be so much of one but as it is, its just a fake.

Looking at the Central Bank it is obvious it landed in the street, destroying a whole terrace of what were very beautiful buildings. That’s a shame, but the building itself is a gem.

The civic space was great – the railings are a joke – so obviously a hastily throught of add-on – a case of ‘this is my space and I’m not having anyone else in so I’ll build a ridiculous wall around my area’

I thought it a very rich area in terms of diversity of social gathering. It still in inspite of the railing deliberately meant to destroy this aspect. I think it was just a case of Fat Cat bankers wanting things there way, willing to exclude all others from ‘their’ building. If they were intimidated by the people on the plaza then sure they must never walk around the city. I work in Irish Life beside the methadone clinic – now you should see the types we pass by into work!

The Central Bank, Its a quality building Its frightening the way some ignorant CEO Mullah from the sub_urbs can swipe away the most successful and accessible public space in the city. I am at a loss to see how some middle class kids with heavy make up can be considered intimidating.
more dissapointing is that an increasing number of our public spaces are becoming privatised. If you go down to the IFSC with a camera you will be approached by an irate securityman asking you to leave as you pose a security risk. Even good ol socio democratic countries with civilised planning systems like Germany are adopting this idea, Eg Potzdammer platz in Berlin is owned by the Sony corp, and if they dont like your haircut its bye bye.
Perhaps the boorish reputation of Stephenson comes from old staff rumours from his office. It was believed he did not come up with the idea for the central bank as his co workers simply couldnt believe he had the intelligence to concieve it. I’ve been to Stephenson Lectures myself and quite frankly I would believe the hearsay, juvinile and all as it is. The piss take of urban design that these railings are is not a silly joke, but an accurate representation of his thinking maybe.

Originally posted by pvdz
Even good ol socio democratic countries with civilised planning systems like Germany are adopting this idea, Eg Potzdammer platz in Berlin is owned by the Sony corp, and if they dont like your haircut its bye bye.

Correct me if I’m wrong, but I think the Sony Center is a development on Potsdammer Platz not the actual platz…..

http://germany.archiseek.com/brandenburg/berlin/sony_centre.html

Originally posted by Zap
The civic space was great – the railings are a joke – so obviously a hastily throught of add-on – a case of ‘this is my space and I’m not having anyone else in so I’ll build a ridiculous wall around my area’

Correct me if I am wrong but surely all of the so-called “Civic Space” is really their property.

I think the railings are an unfortunate necessity of city centre (especially Temple Bar!) life. Hands up who actually would like to have to power-wash down their front doorstep of all sorts of crap (literally) every morning.

But at least the whole plaza was not closed off and some thought was put into keeping the area as a space where people can meet/congregate.

We probably should be thankful!

im sorry harry but that is a very small minded view of the situation. its not really about who owns what piece of land (although legally it obviously is) or the slight discomfort or offence of a small number of workers in that building.
This is an issue for the city and an unhealthy attitude overtly displayed by the upper classes towards the general public (reminiscent of the wide streets commission tearing down the tenements of the poor while they were away, at least they were doing it for the good of the city). its about arguably the best public space in the city being destroyed by the wishes of a few.
The fact that they have left some of it is beside the poit. they have taken the wind out of the sails of the space. they have turned waht was a recessive inviting space into an agressive space where no-one really wants to stay. thankful? next time someone punches you in the face shake their hand for not cutting your balls off.

Sorry about that, I phrased myself badly. I was referring to the perception of public space which is portrayed to the general public. In the Berlin case people like Yahn and Piano have created a generous and sucessful series of public spaces which in past times would have been in public ownership and now are owned by corporations and constantly supervised by them.
This situation stinks as these corporations have the ability to do exactly what the central bank did. More worrying than someone who has an aversion to the ‘lower classes’ these people exsist in a perpetual state of fear of urban life and the principles of urbanity itself. The only time these people encounter another demographic is when they go into ‘toun’ for the weekend to get lushed or by visiting a planned european city.
If we keep on segregating people into social ghettos in sub urban areas we can see that unenlightened people like Harry from middle class ghettos 10 miles from the city are the people who are ultimately making the decisions about the spaces we doorstep crapwashers end up living in.

I don’t want to turn this into a slagging match. I expressed my opinion and did not attack any of the other members.

This is a thread about the building, which by the way I do like but agree that it is somewhat out of place. The plaza is part of the overall architecture of the building and at that I do not think the railings suit the original building very well. One thing I always thought about the railings is that they certainly could have been designed with a very wide opening at the front. This would have made it less intrusive and left the view of the steps unobstructed when left open during the day and when closed at night still met the requirement for which it was erected in the first place. The railings should also have been closer to the building to preserve the size of the plaza.

I am not small minded (I started my post with “Correct me if I’m wrong……”). I agree that the railings do detract from the overall plaza but I don’t think it is totally ruined. I am thankful that the whole plaza was not closed off. That does not mean I am happy about what they have done, but surely there should be some recognition that there is still a (smaller) plaza there.

I don’t claim to know Sam Stephenson, I have never been to one of his lectures, I’ve probably never sat beside him on the bus, I have not extensively toured the placa’s and plaza’s of Europe, but I do not consider myself “unenlightened”. I live and socialise in the city centre. I spend as much time as I can here and that in itself can be enlightening (for good and bad reasons), but I love it dearly and will regret having to leave if and when that days comes.

The segregation of the classes is becoming more and more obvious as time goes by. This is caused be a wide number of influences not by any one set of railings however symbolic or prominent they are. The segregation of classes is caused by society itself and we are all part of that (banks, architects, skateboarders, drunks, all classes, colours and creeds etc. included).

But that is another thread, this one is about the Central Bank.

Sorry if that became a bit of a rant.

One other point that has not been mentioned is the issue of insurance. If I fell down the steps, can I claim against the bank ?

no slagging going on here just open discussion, i just take offence to the attitude that a functioning public space should be destroyed by a few suits’ phobia of the real world. I dont know if the central bank owns that land but im sure a provision of planning permission was the public space. now they have their building built they take away the part that gave back to the city. it shouldnt be allowed.
i realise there are issues of insurance etc. but this isnt the only place in the world where there are an open flight of stairs, im sure that wasnt the primary reason, as usual i susspect that was greed, laziness and ignorance.

This harks back to the “all property is theft” type left wing nonsense that makes sense when everybody behaves themselves but when they don’t they have the right to protect themselves and their property – Isn’t the right to property part of the constitution after all

the dicussion of the central bank has come up befoer i think its an alright building
but people often mention the change of teh roof what ya mean by that do yas have a before and after picture ?

Originally posted by what?
I dont know if the central bank owns that land but im sure a provision of planning permission was the public space.

they do as far as i know
the primary reason given for the enclosure was that it was embarassing in having to wipe vomit, piss and excrement off the steps every morning when you had visitors from other central banks calling… its more the fault of the irish people being unable to cope with public space and standards of behaviour….

i don’t like the design of the railings but i don’t blame the bank… i would do the same

……would’nt be too hard on your countrymen and women Paul. Don’t think I’ve met many Dubliners at Temple bar, mostly Geordies, Glaswegians, Brummies and Essex girls out on the razzle on cheap flights deals from RyanAir

i can assure you im not left wing, and certainly dont go in for that misguided, ill-informed happy-spa shit.

im not saying that everyone was well behaved and the place was pristine 24/7.ive been in that plaza (as many others im sure)hundereds of times when it was open, at all hours of the day and night, and the next morning. it wasnt that bad. now i think it would be an extremley rare situation to find excrement on the steps, urine and sometimes vomit i will give you, and some rubbish from fast food outlets the night before. i dont think anyone would deny the place became messy. but name me a well used public space that doesnt?
its the laziness of the option to rail it all off and ruin the space that i have a problem with. employ a guy to come out with a powerhose early in the morning (as they do wit many buildings and public spaces on the continent) and after a few minutes the steps are as clean as they ever were.
leaving the city with the public space it deserves. in my eyes the railings dont just make the plaza smaller they utterly destroy it. its the quick fix, short term, narrow minded, thoughtless solution typical in this culture run by unenlightened morons who see politics and positions of authority as windows to easier lives for themselves rather than an opportunity to make things better.

Bord Iascaigh Mhara offices in Dún Laoghaire and the apartments next door.
Dún Laoghaire Shopping Centre.
The new Dún Laoghaire Pavilion.

On the other hand the modern extension to the Town Hall is an amazing combination of a contemporary design with an older building that for some reason works perfectly.

Must say I don’t mind the appearance of the Pavillion in Dun Laoghaire. I do however have problems with its construction in the first place as it was built on a public park and very little was given in return (good old PPPs) for the use of the public.

The scary thing about how bad those apartments next to the BIM building is that they actually make the BIM building look better than it did. Don’t get me wrong, the BIM building is unbelievably bad. What I am saying is that those apartments (the ancorage) are so incredibly bad that I cannot help but look on the BIM building more favourably than I did. There is a planning application at the moment for the Iceland site up the road from there. The proposal is for a block of apartments which will form a “landmark building”. It is to be nine stories high. The applicants have been asked for more information. As far as I know they have been asked to rethink the whole height aspect of it.

Dun Laoghaire-Rathdown Co. Council buildings work very well though. Great from the outside and seem to function well on the inside as well.

Aviation House on Burgh Quay – what a pile of junk.