Restoring sash windows

Re: Restoring sash windows

Postby GrahamH » Mon Feb 16, 2009 3:27 pm

A grand array of handsome sashes there brainscan. Good to see retention is on the cards!

Thanks for all the replies S.O.S - most informative. On one last point, and based upon the above case, is it possible in most cases to double-glaze a typical single-pane sash window, or is it very much joint solidity and member size dependant? Say in a typical 1900 house where the original glass has long vanished?

It's issues such as these, which involve the retention of original fabric while offering a energy-saving solution, that aren't getting enough public airing.
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Re: Restoring sash windows

Postby S.O.S. » Tue Feb 17, 2009 9:34 pm

GrahamH wrote:A grand array of handsome sashes there brainscan. Good to see retention is on the cards!.


If he isn't keeping them he'll be in trouble with me:D

GrahamH wrote:On one last point, and based upon the above case, is it possible in most cases to double-glaze a typical single-pane sash window, or is it very much joint solidity and member size dependant? Say in a typical 1900 house where the original glass has long vanished? .


I've put double glazing into some old sashes (only 1 customer ever insisted on it) but they must be 1/1 and the joints must be strenghtened other wise they could and very probably will fail after a time.

I always strongle advise people not to get D/G done to old sashes but given the choice between someone binning the old sashes or me putting D/G into them, it's an easy choice for me.

GrahamH wrote:It's issues such as these, which involve the retention of original fabric while offering a energy-saving solution, that aren't getting enough public airing.


The economics of putting double glazing into old sashes is shaky, it is my belief proper draught proofing can make a set of draughty old windows much more comfortable for the inhabitances of a house.

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Re: Restoring sash windows

Postby GrahamH » Wed Feb 18, 2009 10:39 am

Thanks S.O.S.

Fully agreed about the limited benefits of double-glazing relative to the poor isulation value of old walls, floors and non-draught-proofed windows. But the way I see it, if we want to get real about energy conservation while also restoring historic detail to houses where original windows have long since disappeared, it is essential that double glazing forms part of that process. There is no way the average joe public is going to sacrifice double-glazed PVC or aluminium frames for a single-glazed sash, however well draught-proofed or aesthetically pleasing. This results in a net energy loss to the property (whatever of the manufacturing process which is likely to be a different story).

As such, the sooner we formulate and make viable a well-detailed, historically appropriate double-glazed sash or equivalant - preferably involving a single-glazed pane of double-glazed value - the better. It's probably fair to say that on a national basis 50 per cent of historic buildings have lost their original windows. To have even a fraction of these reinstated on an energy-conscious basis would be extremely worthwhile, even if limited to Victorian single-pane examples.

Lofty conservation professionals appear to forget the ranks of typical two-up two-down houses that proliferate in every urban area, never mind smaller or slightly larger houses (and all of which suffer the greatest loss of window fabric of our wider building stock). These require and deserve sensitive reinstatement as much as larger flagship properties where authentic detailing is obviously equally desirable. The sooner we get away from the horrendously detailed and manufactured rubbish being thrown at these buildings in the name of energy conservation, towards a more aesthetically pleasing and probably more efficient model, the better it will be for both property owners and our built heritage.

(and to clarify I obviously do not advocate the replacement of original fabric where it survives)
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Re: Restoring sash windows

Postby S.O.S. » Wed Feb 18, 2009 1:07 pm

GrahamH wrote:The use of specially treated high performance single-glazing which acts the same as double-glazing (and as featured on Grand Designs last week) doesn't seem to have caught on here. It's been available for years!


Can you get me the name of this glass
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Re: Restoring sash windows

Postby S.O.S. » Tue Apr 07, 2009 12:23 pm

Not sure if anybody is interested but I've heard from 2 different sources that Bolgers have gone out of business.
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Re: Restoring sash windows

Postby GrahamH » Thu Apr 09, 2009 11:11 pm

S.O.S. wrote:Can you get me the name of this glass


Sorry S.O.S., forgot about this. Here is the website of the company featured on Grand Designs.

http://www.slimliteglass.co.uk/home.html

(try to muddle through the desperately written text)

Looking at their product, it's clear Kevin McCloud was incorrect in describing the glass as being single-glazed - it is in fact double-glazed. Nonetheless, it is still remarkably thin, at only 12mm for the slimmest of units. The perimeter seal is also only 5mm wide, meaning it is invisible when used with a standard 6-7mm rebate in a glazing bar. The type of spacing used also eliminates cold bridging at the edges, common with typical double-glazing. They claim their units can be used for most single-glazed applications.
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Re: Restoring sash windows

Postby S.O.S. » Fri Apr 10, 2009 7:52 pm

Thanks Graham
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Re: Restoring sash windows

Postby S.O.S. » Wed Aug 19, 2009 10:34 pm

GrahamH wrote:Sorry S.O.S., forgot about this. Here is the website of the company featured on Grand Designs.

http://www.slimliteglass.co.uk/home.html

(try to muddle through the desperately written text)

Looking at their product, it's clear Kevin McCloud was incorrect in describing the glass as being single-glazed - it is in fact double-glazed. Nonetheless, it is still remarkably thin, at only 12mm for the slimmest of units. The perimeter seal is also only 5mm wide, meaning it is invisible when used with a standard 6-7mm rebate in a glazing bar. The type of spacing used also eliminates cold bridging at the edges, common with typical double-glazing. They claim their units can be used for most single-glazed applications.


Problem with those units is they are too heavy for delicate sashes
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Re: Restoring sash windows

Postby GrahamH » Wed Aug 19, 2009 10:46 pm

Indeed. I'd like to see them attempting to tackle a dainty number like this.

Image
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Restoring sash windows

Postby Rusty Cogs » Thu Aug 20, 2009 10:33 am

While not loosing sleep as such I have to say I'm in a dilly of a pickle over the windows in my c.1900 2 up 2 down. The three 2/2 sash windows to the front have long since been replaced by PVC dross which has since warped and requires replacement. For sport I went into a uPVC joint in Fairview who gave me a rough quote of <€3k for three new uPVC sashes fitted. When I see figures of €1,700 per window quoted on this thread I just don't know how (in these financially challenging times) I can justify the >€5k spend. BTW, the road is now a mix of uPVC and new 1/1 wooden sash. Not an original 2/2 remains.
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Re: Restoring sash windows

Postby S.O.S. » Thu Aug 20, 2009 6:07 pm

Rusty Cogs wrote:While not loosing sleep as such I have to say I'm in a dilly of a pickle over the windows in my c.1900 2 up 2 down. The three 2/2 sash windows to the front have long since been replaced by PVC dross which has since warped and requires replacement. For sport I went into a uPVC joint in Fairview who gave me a rough quote of <€3k for three new uPVC sashes fitted. When I see figures of €1,700 per window quoted on this thread I just don't know how (in these financially challenging times) I can justify the >€5k spend. BTW, the road is now a mix of uPVC and new 1/1 wooden sash. Not an original 2/2 remains.


Rusty Cogs, I know what it costs to produce uPVC windows they cost almost nothing to produce I know a guy in NI who will give me windows for €100 each and that is with him making a prodit, I really can't understand how uPVC people can charge as much as they do.

I know what goes into making up and down sliding sash windows, all the components are expensive but it really has to be pointed out again and again uPVC is not long lasting (20-30 years ) hardwood sash windows are built for 2 or 3 lifetimes (100-200 years).
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Re: Restoring sash windows

Postby GrahamH » Thu Aug 20, 2009 10:21 pm

Even if you put that point to people, you'd get the answer 'well why should I have to pay for other generations' windows?'! It's a fair enough point, purely on the basis of personal economics.

Also, it's incredibly difficult to get people to implement a net loss in insulation, heat and sound, by removing old PVC windows (a growing isssue) and replacing them with single-glazed sashes according to historic detail. And as Rusty observes, the explosion in poor double-glazed reproduction sashes is having an adverse impact on the survival of a design record on a street, where single-pane units are now commonly replacing two-over-twos and Georgian sashes. Indeed, I know of a prominent public building that for years I thought once had one-over-ones on the basis of its (good) repro sashes, until I happened upon an old photograph showing two-over-twos. As a rural building, it took on an entirely different character and style - even the date shifted by a couple of decades. At least PVC glazing rarely lied about the former glazing pattern. And of course, this issue pales into insignificance when considering the rubbish detailing of the majority of repro sashes.

I'm not sure what I would do if I was in Rusty's position. I wouldn't care about the heat loss, as it's meagre, but sound insulation is important. Especially as none of these streets were originally built with motorised traffic in mind. Buses in particular are a killer for sound pollution. I'd suffer for style I suppose.
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Re: Restoring sash windows

Postby Peter Fitz » Fri Aug 21, 2009 12:38 am

GrahamH wrote:I'd suffer for style I suppose.


Pride feels no pain ;)
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Re: Restoring sash windows

Postby allanon » Sun Sep 19, 2010 1:41 am

snooky wrote:Hi,

Does anyone know or can recommend sash window restoration/replacement company that will cover North County Dublin? We have three sash windows on our stone cottage (c. 1905), which need either restoring or replacing.

I am unsure how bad they have to be before they must be replaced?

Windows are 6 over 6, have no weights/pulley visible (must have been ripped out), and we can't open them.. due to years of over painting I should think. One pane is cracked but the rest look ok. There's some small amount of wood rotting at the bottom of one of the windows as far as I can see.. though difficult to tell how bad the windows are underneath all the paint. They still keep out the wind and rain though!.

Appreciate any advice. Thanks



Hi,
Have you found a company yet. I have a small business in that field. Feel free to call me 087 2867208 - Kenneth Connor

Paste the link below to view some of our work
http://picasaweb.google.com/Heritage.Joinery.Ireland/HeritageJoineryPortfolio?feat=directlink
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