Henrietta Street

Re: Henrietta Street

Postby johnglas » Fri Sep 05, 2008 7:01 pm

So do I; H St needs a fillip. I take it this is by the architects (deB+M?) who did that masterly (or mistressly) newbuild at Cork IT.
Good brickwork is a timeless aesthetic and 'native' to Dublin, BUT what is it - a house, an office, a museum?
The rear view shows some interesting contrasts: the Amsterdam School flats, the 'decent' contemporary do., the absolutely dire neglect of the rear facades of the adjoining houses (why is grey cement the default material?) and the rubbish surfacing of the lane. But what a gem Henrietta St is - I don't care how twee it gets, it just needs a good kick up the arse. I think this will do it.
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Re: Henrietta Street

Postby Paul Clerkin » Fri Sep 05, 2008 7:10 pm

It's by Ryan W. Kennihan Architects
http://ireland.archiseek.com/news/2008/000236.html
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Re: Henrietta Street

Postby PVC King » Fri Sep 05, 2008 7:11 pm

It needs funding very badly; it is a real shame that unlike the UK where you have a very solvent national trust structure both in Scotland and the rest and the US where there are numerous local and specialist national non-profit groups which are extemely solvent over a five year cycle. In Ireland there is no-one with the money to make an intervention.

Completing a compulsory purchase of landlords such as the Underwoods is welcome and is certainly the kick up the arse you refer to but the lack of finance to do what the Underwoods were cpo'd for not doing is the real problem. I would join a group on Henrietta Street if one existed.
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Re: Henrietta Street

Postby gunter » Fri Sep 05, 2008 9:11 pm

PVC King wrote:I would join a group on Henrietta Street if one existed.


I believe notjim recently pointed out that no. 7 was up for sale and, if I'm not mistaken, suggested we all club together to find the €1.85M asking price!

archiseek all living together as one big disfunctional family, in delapidated splendour, is surely a vision with fate written all over it.
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Re: Henrietta Street

Postby ctesiphon » Fri Sep 05, 2008 11:52 pm

It would complement the convent up the road quite nicely too.

As long as someone has a word with hutton about not leaving his teabags in the sink, count me in.
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Re: Henrietta Street

Postby PTB » Sat Sep 06, 2008 6:10 pm

I'm calling shotgun on a double bed

Will this competition be followed through to completion or is it a 'what if?' exercise.
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Re: Henrietta Street

Postby interiorlight » Thu Oct 02, 2008 3:18 pm

Is it possible to access any of the buildings for interior photography , as an irish photograher who documents such I find it almost impossible to gain access before they are changed . Any help apreciated .

http://www.jameshughesphotography.com
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Re: Henrietta Street

Postby Paul Clerkin » Thu Oct 02, 2008 4:13 pm

Maybe drop a lettter into the houses - will probably work.
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Re: Henrietta Street

Postby aj » Tue Jul 28, 2009 5:05 pm

Jas wrote:so henrietta street has been left to rot since 1992.......


still no progress 2009.

I walked around Heinretta Street on Saturday and could not believe the condition the street is in.

Surely there has to be a self sustaining / funding use for this street.
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Re: Henrietta Street

Postby johnglas » Tue Jul 28, 2009 5:52 pm

Shareyour views; in all my visits to Dublin, I can never understand why this street is in the condition that it's in. Since it is in the heart of the legal quarter, the obvious solution is for the houses to be developed as some kind of legal 'chambers' (although I'm aware the Irish Bar does not operate that system), especially on the south side of the street (with the vanished no. 16 replaced). The Sisters of Charity have done a grand job with nos. 8-10, so there is no inherent reason apart form inertia and the fact that it's not south of the river why the rest should not be done. That and the fact that your planning department is terminally useless. But why doesn't Dublin Civic Trust get a grant and do it themselves and then lease them off? (Sorry, forgot about the inalienable and untouchable rights of private property, no matter how irresponsible.)
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Re: Henrietta Street

Postby jdivision » Tue Jul 28, 2009 8:19 pm

Are most of them still owned by the Underwoods. There's been one for sale there for years but they're looking for silly money for what is essentially a wreck.
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Re: Henrietta Street

Postby aj » Wed Jul 29, 2009 9:48 am

If ever there was a place for an open air museum of Georgian Dublin this is it.

The tourist board are only too keen to stress Dublins Georgian heritage to the yanks et al. but where is there any real museum of one of the most important periods in the citys history.

The Palace stables in Armagh was restored as a living tourist attraction the Ulster American Folk park is similiar. The Ulster American Folk park get close on 200,000 vistors a year depsite being in Tyrone.

Surely Heinretta Street is perfect a such a living museum. What do you think?
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Re: Henrietta Street

Postby rumpelstiltskin » Wed Jul 29, 2009 12:08 pm

aj wrote:If ever there was a place for an open air museum of Georgian Dublin this is it.

The tourist board are only too keen to stress Dublins Georgian heritage to the yanks et al. but where is there any real museum of one of the most important periods in the citys history.

The Palace stables in Armagh was restored as a living tourist attraction the Ulster American Folk park is similiar. The Ulster American Folk park get close on 200,000 vistors a year depsite being in Tyrone.

Surely Heinretta Street is perfect a such a living museum. What do you think?


Something has to be done about the surrounding area first. It's actually slightly intimidating walking up there, as I imagine it would be for any tourists. I think this is part of the reason it's so neglected; the fact that it's survived around here at all is pretty amazing.
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Re: Henrietta Street

Postby aj » Wed Jul 29, 2009 1:07 pm

rumpelstiltskin wrote:Something has to be done about the surrounding area first. It's actually slightly intimidating walking up there, as I imagine it would be for any tourists. I think this is part of the reason it's so neglected; the fact that it's survived around here at all is pretty amazing.



true but so is St Patricks Catherdal
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Re: Henrietta Street

Postby johnglas » Wed Jul 29, 2009 2:03 pm

I've visited H St many times and never been 'intimidated': do you people never leave the suburbs?
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Re: Henrietta Street

Postby hutton » Wed Jul 29, 2009 2:12 pm

A few facts to clarify:

Having spoken recently to some of the owners, I can throw some light on this.

Firstly, to answer jdivision, the council have taken ownership of two houses, numbers 3 and 14 by CPO, previously owned by the Underwoods. The Underwoods no longer own any property on this street. The house referred to as being for sale, number 7 is indeed in serious need of restoration and €1m+ would be the very minimum to get a good start underway; however at under €2m acquisition cost for more than 8,000 sq feet, I wouldn't consider this to be "silly money" - at 4 floors over basement, 4 bays wide, the building would make an excellent corporate HQ, and has an amazing double height hallway with a baroque ceiling. More details are at the bottom of this post.

Secondly regarding the points made by AJ and Johnglas, I thoroughly agree. The street has been left in a disgraceful condition, however I want to make a few further points here:

1) About 15 years ago Dublin City Council commissioned repaving of the street, setting in cobbles replacing tarmac; however they did this in the absence of professionally qualified advice, with the result that the load bearing of the new cobbles started collapsing the street into cellars. Dublin City Council's way to rectify such a problem, and restore the city's oldest street - well to fill in the cellars with concrete :eek:

Understandably a number of owners who had bought houses to prevent demolition in the 60s and 70s went nuts about this and were forced to take legal action to stop the council doing this to all of their properties on what is Dublin's oldest Georgian street.

DCC simply then sat back and left the street covered with roadworks bollards for over 10 years, during the boom, substantially devaluing all properties on the street. This has since been resolved 18 months ago with owners ultimately accepting reinstatement of the cellar forms in concrete, as they could no longer afford legal bills. In reinstating the public domain, DCC inserted brand new granite slabs rather than appropriate historic pavings, some of which I now see have subsequently been removed with tarmac once again featuring as pavement :(
No compensation or grants to do up the houses was given by DCC for the years of damage they presided over.

2) The monsterous block built at the end of the street was approved by Dublin City Council in 2003 - again the DCC planning department to blame, who should have stopped this.

3) Two years ago DCC produced a "conservation report", which one would think would indicate that they now were going to show some commitment to the street. 10s of 1000s was spent on commissioning the report - however, once again no money whatsoever was allocated to the actual buildings themselves, except in fairness the structural consolidation of numbers 3 and 14, the houses CPO'd from the Underwoods. Hence in effect, a report that tells everyone how important the street is which is already well documented, and effectively nothing else.

4) Last year an "ideas competition" was commissioned up by DCC to reinstate the missing half of number 15; although a noble idea in itsef - and an excellent winning design - the reality on the ground is that no physical change occurs.

Are we beginning to notice a theme here? In my opinion it is very much at the door of DCC that the blame lies :mad:

Bought by conservationists in the 60s and 70s as the buildings were under serious immediate threat, a number of the houses have been let to artists since the 70s which at least kept some life - however such lettings I do not believe would bring in much money. Instead should an owner wish to restore one of these houses, they will be further penalised by DCC with a development levies bill somewhere in the order of 40 - 70 thousand euros per house - so a further disincentive.

Despite all of this, the nuns did an excellent restoration of numbers 8 - 10 ten years ago, the King's Inns have recently restored number 11, while numbers 5 and 6 have also had some works done in restoring the facades - as far as I am aware no grants money was made available by the state for these works. Furthermore I also note that number 13 is currently undergoing facade restoration.

Finally I fully agree that the street would make a tremendous amenity for tourism as an intact Georgian open air museum, particularly as it sits on top of what is now the ACA of Capel St - but it may be worth noting that there is absolutely no marketing of here or any other part of north Georgian Dublin. Instead just up the road two years ago DCC were happy to give the go-ahead to the demolition of the what they believed to be the birthplace of Richard Brinsley Sheridan at 12 Dorset Street. Subsequently refused on appeal to An BP, it then transpired the house wasn't actually Sheridan's as the street was renumbered - however despite this, the developer has since revised his scheme to reinstate that house and match it with a pastiche, and erect a plaque on the front noting BS's connection with the street. So an amusing and happy ending there - but no thanks to DCC :mad:

Hope this helps clarify a few points :)

Regarding number 7, the house for sale: http://www.daft.ie/searchsale.daft?search_type=sale&id=280077&map_lat=53.3537509049662&map_lng=-6.2529587399939&map_zoom=15&unique=7-2009.1-2.7839f27fdb159fc884b7df0eda1f2243&__utma=200121531.1343017351.1237777925.1237777925.1248873525.2&__utmz=200121531.1237777933.1.1.utmcsr%3Darchiseek.com|utmccn%3D(referral)|utmcmd%3Dreferral|utmcct%3D%2Fcontent%2Fshowthread.php&daftID=c52ecf8b278a46705d5fb771bc51ad2c&__utmb=200121531.4.10.1248873525&__utmc=200121531&fr=default&limit=10&offset=0
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Re: Henrietta Street

Postby Paul Clerkin » Wed Jul 29, 2009 2:43 pm

pity i'm currently short of a few bob
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Re: Henrietta Street

Postby rumpelstiltskin » Wed Jul 29, 2009 3:15 pm

johnglas wrote:I've visited H St many times and never been 'intimidated': do you people never leave the suburbs?


Are you denying that that particular area of Dublin is filthy and badly maintained? This creates an unconscious sense of distaste and insecurity. There's absolutely no reason whatsoever that the average person would have to stroll up to Henrietta Street.
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Re: Henrietta Street

Postby aj » Wed Jul 29, 2009 4:17 pm

hutton wrote:A few facts to clarify:

Having spoken recently to some of the owners, I can throw some light on this.

Firstly, to answer jdivision, the council have taken ownership of two houses, numbers 3 and 14 by CPO, previously owned by the Underwoods. The Underwoods no longer own any property on this street. The house referred to as being for sale, number 7 is indeed in serious need of restoration and €1m+ would be the very minimum to get a good start underway; however at under €2m acquisition cost for more than 8,000 sq feet, I wouldn't consider this to be "silly money" - at 4 floors over basement, 4 bays wide, the building would make an excellent corporate HQ, and has an amazing double height hallway with a baroque ceiling. More details are at the bottom of this post.

Secondly regarding the points made by AJ and Johnglas, I thoroughly agree. The street has been left in a disgraceful condition, however I want to make a few further points here:

1) About 15 years ago Dublin City Council commissioned repaving of the street, setting in cobbles replacing tarmac; however they did this in the absence of professionally qualified advice, with the result that the load bearing of the new cobbles started collapsing the street into cellars. Dublin City Council's way to rectify such a problem, and restore the city's oldest street - well to fill in the cellars with concrete :eek:

Understandably a number of owners who had bought houses to prevent demolition in the 60s and 70s went nuts about this and were forced to take legal action to stop the council doing this to all of their properties on what is Dublin's oldest Georgian street.

DCC simply then sat back and left the street covered with roadworks bollards for over 10 years, during the boom, substantially devaluing all properties on the street. This has since been resolved 18 months ago with owners ultimately accepting reinstatement of the cellar forms in concrete, as they could no longer afford legal bills. In reinstating the public domain, DCC inserted brand new granite slabs rather than appropriate historic pavings, some of which I now see have subsequently been removed with tarmac once again featuring as pavement :(
No compensation or grants to do up the houses was given by DCC for the years of damage they presided over.

2) The monsterous block built at the end of the street was approved by Dublin City Council in 2003 - again the DCC planning department to blame, who should have stopped this.

3) Two years ago DCC produced a "conservation report", which one would think would indicate that they now were going to show some commitment to the street. 10s of 1000s was spent on commissioning the report - however, once again no money whatsoever was allocated to the actual buildings themselves, except in fairness the structural consolidation of numbers 3 and 14, the houses CPO'd from the Underwoods. Hence in effect, a report that tells everyone how important the street is which is already well documented, and effectively nothing else.

4) Last year an "ideas competition" was commissioned up by DCC to reinstate the missing half of number 15; although a noble idea in itsef - and an excellent winning design - the reality on the ground is that no physical change occurs.

Are we beginning to notice a theme here? In my opinion it is very much at the door of DCC that the blame lies :mad:

Bought by conservationists in the 60s and 70s as the buildings were under serious immediate threat, a number of the houses have been let to artists since the 70s which at least kept some life - however such lettings I do not believe would bring in much money. Instead should an owner wish to restore one of these houses, they will be further penalised by DCC with a development levies bill somewhere in the order of 40 - 70 thousand euros per house - so a further disincentive.

Despite all of this, the nuns did an excellent restoration of numbers 8 - 10 ten years ago, the King's Inns have recently restored number 11, while numbers 5 and 6 have also had some works done in restoring the facades - as far as I am aware no grants money was made available by the state for these works. Furthermore I also note that number 13 is currently undergoing facade restoration.

Finally I fully agree that the street would make a tremendous amenity for tourism as an intact Georgian open air museum, particularly as it sits on top of what is now the ACA of Capel St - but it may be worth noting that there is absolutely no marketing of here or any other part of north Georgian Dublin. Instead just up the road two years ago DCC were happy to give the go-ahead to the demolition of the what they believed to be the birthplace of Richard Brinsley Sheridan at 12 Dorset Street. Subsequently refused on appeal to An BP, it then transpired the house wasn't actually Sheridan's as the street was renumbered - however despite this, the developer has since revised his scheme to reinstate that house and match it with a pastiche, and erect a plaque on the front noting BS's connection with the street. So an amusing and happy ending there - but no thanks to DCC :mad:

Hope this helps clarify a few points :)

Regarding number 7, the house for sale: http://www.daft.ie/searchsale.daft?search_type=sale&id=280077&map_lat=53.3537509049662&map_lng=-6.2529587399939&map_zoom=15&unique=7-2009.1-2.7839f27fdb159fc884b7df0eda1f2243&__utma=200121531.1343017351.1237777925.1237777925.1248873525.2&__utmz=200121531.1237777933.1.1.utmcsr%3Darchiseek.com|utmccn%3D(referral)|utmcmd%3Dreferral|utmcct%3D%2Fcontent%2Fshowthread.php&daftID=c52ecf8b278a46705d5fb771bc51ad2c&__utmb=200121531.4.10.1248873525&__utmc=200121531&fr=default&limit=10&offset=0


in summary DCC are a joke
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Re: Henrietta Street

Postby gunter » Wed Jul 29, 2009 7:03 pm

hutton wrote:The monsterous block built at the end of the street was approved by Dublin City Council in 2003 - again the DCC planning department to blame, who should have stopped this.


What is so terribly wrong about that building?

OK, it's a big square block, but most of the lauded Henrietta Street houses are big square blocks!

I think it was one of the better in-fill apartment schemes from the 'Tiger' years and until the etched glass balconies were bolted on flush, killing some of the window proportions, and the etched glass roof terrace barrier went on, killing the vertical proportions of the chimneyesque central lift shaft, this was a class scheme, no?
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Re: Henrietta Street

Postby johnglas » Wed Jul 29, 2009 7:59 pm

Are you denying that that particular area of Dublin is filthy and badly maintained? This creates an unconscious sense of distaste and insecurity. There's absolutely no reason whatsoever that the average person would have to stroll up to Henrietta Street.


You've gone on to a completely different argument; why should 'distaste' (oddly anally-retentive word) lead to 'insecurity'? OK. it's run-down, but it's interesting compared to the manicured banality of suburbia. The principal reason for strolling up to Henrietta St is Henrietta St!
:rolleyes:
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Re: Henrietta Street

Postby fergalr » Wed Jul 29, 2009 8:06 pm

johnglas wrote:The principal reason for strolling up to Henrietta St is Henrietta St!
:rolleyes:


I thought the principal reason was being a barrister ;)
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Re: Henrietta Street

Postby hutton » Wed Jul 29, 2009 10:41 pm

gunter wrote:What is so terribly wrong about that building?
I think it was one of the better in-fill apartment schemes from the 'Tiger' years... this was a class scheme, no?


Image[/QUOTE]

gunter, first you attack O'D+Ts Timber Yard scheme, and now you defend this yoke??? Come off it - trolling, trolling, trolling... troll on :p
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Re: Henrietta Street

Postby GrahamH » Wed Jul 29, 2009 10:47 pm

gunter is suffering from the after-effects of sunstroke from his Billy holiday. I think a lie down for a week is in order.
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Re: Henrietta Street

Postby hutton » Wed Jul 29, 2009 11:02 pm

GrahamH wrote:gunter is suffering from the after-effects of sunstroke from his Billy holiday. I think a lie down for a week is in order.


Lol. +1 to that :D
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