Developments in Cork

Re: Developments in Cork

Postby bosco » Wed Jun 10, 2009 4:12 pm

dave123 wrote:Btw Limerick metropolitician population actually contributes the burgeoning growth of North Cork...


Wilie O'Dea? :)
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Re: Developments in Cork

Postby rumpelstiltskin » Wed Jun 10, 2009 6:02 pm

bosco wrote:Wilie O'Dea? :)


Apparently one of the reasons the population of Limerick is often underestimated is that there's an entire community of Limerick's most vulnerable living inside his enormous moustache.
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Re: Developments in Cork

Postby starchaser » Wed Jun 10, 2009 7:16 pm

rumpelstiltskin wrote:Apparently one of the reasons the population of Limerick is often underestimated is that there's an entire community of Limerick's most vulnerable living inside his enormous moustache.



rumpleforeskin actually has a sense of humour :)
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Re: Developments in Cork

Postby dave123 » Thu Jun 11, 2009 11:13 pm

mickeydocs wrote:I'm convinced you are on drugs as you exist in a parallel universe. The census is not arbitrary. The growth rates for the 'greater' areas of Limerick that spill into other counties is below 10%. The suburban area of Cork is growing at 12%, only greater Dublin grows faster than this.
Cork is not an area in decline, it is an area with a very quickly changing demographic, moving from city core to a greater metropolitan hub. The greater area is in excess of 300,000, and the radius is never greater than 20 miles. What is the radius for greater Limerick?



City and suburbs of both.

Limerick grew faster of the two. in this census, and the census before that. The reason why Limerick didnt grow as fast as county Cork is because Limerick metropolitician agglomeration spreads into three counties.

Nenagh and Ennis had growth rates of nearly 15%. But I'm not arguing your points. I just want to make sure your aware of the facts. And that Limericks population is incredibly undermined. Its even used for such sling shots on these threads. For example most people sprout Galway is bigger than Limerick. When the official boundary divisions are inaccurate and flawed to determine population stats when the boundaries have changed little in 3/4generations.

Limerick city is growing as fast as the other regions. The city of Limerick is going through some great rejuivention right now. Its now taking its place to be one of the most attractive feel good cities in Ireland. Something it was never judged as. Regardless of the census result's both cities have really outdated boundaries and need to be widened asap.
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Re: Developments in Cork

Postby mickeydocs » Fri Jun 12, 2009 2:40 pm

dave123 wrote:City and suburbs of both.

Limerick grew faster of the two. in this census, and the census before that. The reason why Limerick didnt grow as fast as county Cork is because Limerick metropolitician agglomeration spreads into three counties.

Nenagh and Ennis had growth rates of nearly 15%. But I'm not arguing your points. I just want to make sure your aware of the facts. And that Limericks population is incredibly undermined. Its even used for such sling shots on these threads. For example most people sprout Galway is bigger than Limerick. When the official boundary divisions are inaccurate and flawed to determine population stats when the boundaries have changed little in 3/4generations.

Limerick city is growing as fast as the other regions. The city of Limerick is going through some great rejuivention right now. Its now taking its place to be one of the most attractive feel good cities in Ireland. Something it was never judged as. Regardless of the census result's both cities have really outdated boundaries and need to be widened asap.


1. Limerick grew faster of the two. Limerick city is growing as fast as the other regions. - Can you make up your mind please?
2. Nenagh and Ennis had growth rates of nearly 15% -
So did Mallow and Fermoy, which are nearer to Cork than Nenagh and Ennis to Cork - both are commuter towns but we do not include these towns in greater Cork
3. [I]I have friends in Nenagh that would be annoyed if you claimed their town was a suburb/commuter town of Limerick
[/I]
4. Limericks population is incredibly undermined. Its even used for such sling shots on these threads. For example most people sprout Galway is bigger than Limerick. When the official boundary divisions are inaccurate and flawed to determine population stats when the boundaries have changed little in 3/4generations -
Same for Dublin and Cork. Cork City Council is currently negotiating a boundary extension with Cork County Council - the negotiations aren't friendly. If the City is successful the revised borough of Cork will have a population in excess of 250,000. This is hotly contested by the County Council as this will affect their funding.

5. The city of Limerick is going through some great rejuivention right now. Its now taking its place to be one of the most attractive feel good cities in Ireland. -
I visit Limerick occasionally on business - I get the impression that there is huge trepidation like the rest of the country, but maybe more so due to the huge job losses in Dell and the industries that support this.
6. The reason why Limerick didnt grow as fast as county Cork is because Limerick metropolitician agglomeration spreads into three counties. -
What has this got to do with growth rates?
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Re: Developments in Cork

Postby dave123 » Fri Jun 12, 2009 11:19 pm

mickeydocs wrote:1. Limerick grew faster of the two. Limerick city is growing as fast as the other regions. - Can you make up your mind please?[.quote]. the city and suburbs have grown faster in the last two census. Cork metropolitian area grew faster than Limerick though.

2. Nenagh and Ennis had growth rates of nearly 15% -
[I]So did Mallow and Fermoy, which are nearer to Cork than Nenagh and Ennis to Cork - both are commuter towns but we do not include these towns in greater Cork
3. [I]I have friends in Nenagh that would be annoyed if you claimed their town was a suburb/commuter town of Limerick
Mallow is only 4km less in distance.. for christ sake.

Don't twist my words:) I like facts and I do not like people putting words in my mouth. Please do look for where I said this "Nenagh is a suburb of Limerick".You won't find it. Nenagh is a commuter town of Limerick. Not debatable or really worth arguing over.
[Same for Dublin and Cork. Cork City Council is currently negotiating a boundary extension with Cork County Council - the negotiations aren't friendly. If the City is successful the revised borough of Cork will have a population in excess of 250,000. This is hotly contested by the County Council as this will affect their funding.


More than half of Limerick city's population is outside of the city. 100,000 is the city actual. The total city by boundaries is 91.000. The city boundary is 52,600. So its nearly half of the city outside it. This is significant. Cork or Dublin dont have the problem of their city spilling into another county. So again you don't have a comparison. The only comparison would be Waterford. But Waterford has only a tiny fraction of the city stretching into Kilkenny. Limerick has at least 6,000.

[I]I visit Limerick occasionally on business - I get the impression that there is huge trepidation like the rest of the country, but maybe more so due to the huge job losses in Dell and the industries that support this.
Lol, well your feeling is wrong. There is still much redevelopment going on.Limerick is still very confident in making its city more attractive and more beautiful. There is much more development on the horizon.. The Opera centre is a step closer. The riverfront work is still ongoing. The Bedford row phase 2 is finalising their plans to start their development facing onto O'Connell street. Marks and Spencer is stil expected to get their go ahead anchor unit in the Crecent. Basically the whole of the country is affected by the recession. But Limerick is still very confident. In the last property report it was said limerick should hold well incomparison to other regions in the country. The only problem Limerick is really facing is the planning deregulation and Limerick/Clare county council monopoloy around the city. This has caused alot of suction and bad planning that is now affecting the city as a whole. One should only look at the irregualarity of the high rents in the suburbs vs the city. Cork city doesn't have this problem.
6. The reason why Limerick didnt grow as fast as county Cork is because Limerick metropolitician agglomeration spreads into three counties. -
[I]What has this got to do with growth rates?


It has everything to do with it. Limerick was responsible for creating double digit growth in North Tipp. Limerick metropolitian area expands into towns such as Parteen, Newport, Birdhill, Sixmilebridge,Cratloe, Arnacrusha, Obriens bridge for example none of them are in Limerick county. So this is never noted because people do not realise the city is built on the borders of three counties. Cork doesnt have this geographical problem.
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Re: Developments in Cork

Postby mickeydocs » Sat Jun 13, 2009 9:23 am

dave123 wrote:
mickeydocs wrote:1. Limerick grew faster of the two. It has everything to do with it. Limerick was responsible for creating double digit growth in North Tipp. Limerick metropolitian area expands into towns such as Parteen, Newport, Birdhill, Sixmilebridge,Cratloe, Arnacrusha, Obriens bridge for example none of them are in Limerick county. So this is never noted because people do not realise the city is built on the borders of three counties. Cork doesnt have this geographical problem.



You are in denial in that you believe Limerick is unique. All of the cities of Ireland have considerable population that spills into other councils. All of these areas have experienced double digit growth, and some areas around Dublin it could be claimed have experienced treble digit growth (South Louth as an example).

Forget the medieval county concept, we govern locally according to councils. Councils get their funding based on populations. Most councils are unwilling to have their boundaries reduced if it means losing out on their annual budget. Our demographics have been changing alot faster than our local government structures. Reform is needed at a national level and not just at a local leve. Cork is pushing for this every bit as much as Limerick.

However, I really don't understand why you are so determined in your claims that Limerick is growing faster than Cork when the CSO figures (which include Clare, Tipperary, and other regions - just check the data) show that the greater Cork area is actually growing at a faster rate.
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Re: Developments in Cork

Postby dave123 » Sat Jun 13, 2009 11:39 pm

mickeydocs wrote:
dave123 wrote:

You are in denial in that you believe Limerick is unique. All of the cities of Ireland have considerable population that spills into other councils.


Counties and councils... Dublin is a city of 1million with the actual county almost built up. Limerick is on the border of three counties. Cork or Galway don't have this problem. So again I'm not in denial of anything. I'm accepting the FACTS.

However, I really don't understand why you are so determined in your claims that Limerick is growing faster than Cork when the CSO figures (which include Clare, Tipperary, and other regions - just check the data) show that the greater Cork area is actually growing at a faster rate.


At the expense of Cork city's loss..In the last two census, look at how much the city decreased.
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Re: Developments in Cork

Postby rob mc » Sun Jun 14, 2009 1:04 pm

mickeydocs wrote:

You are in denial in that you believe Limerick is unique. All of the cities of Ireland have considerable population that spills into other councils. All of these areas have experienced double digit growth, and some areas around Dublin it could be claimed have experienced treble digit growth (South Louth as an example).

Forget the medieval county concept, we govern locally according to councils. Councils get their funding based on populations. Most councils are unwilling to have their boundaries reduced if it means losing out on their annual budget. Our demographics have been changing alot faster than our local government structures. Reform is needed at a national level and not just at a local leve. Cork is pushing for this every bit as much as Limerick.

However, I really don't understand why you are so determined in your claims that Limerick is growing faster than Cork when the CSO figures (which include Clare, Tipperary, and other regions - just check the data) show that the greater Cork area is actually growing at a faster rate.


Firstly,he never said that limerick didn't spill into other councils he said that it's spilt into other counties which is why Limerick never gets recognised for its true population.

Secondly,neither of you seem to understand the term "perspective". Limerick's population IS growing at a faster rate than cork,but the population of cork is growing more than limerick. For example, lets say Limerick city is growing by 12% per annum and Cork city grows by only 10% per annum, since Cork already has a greater population, 10% of its population is greater than a 12% rise in Limericks. So in a way both of you are actually right.
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Re: Developments in Cork

Postby sovereign12 » Sun Jun 14, 2009 1:26 pm

Daddy or chips?????????
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Re: Developments in Cork

Postby rob mc » Sun Jun 14, 2009 4:01 pm

Oh yea,and thirdly who gives a shit?:D
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Re: Developments in Cork

Postby dave123 » Mon Jun 15, 2009 5:22 am

rob mc wrote:Firstly,he never said that limerick didn't spill into other councils he said that it's spilt into other counties which is why Limerick never gets recognised for its true population.

Secondly,neither of you seem to understand the term "perspective". Limerick's population IS growing at a faster rate than cork,but the population of cork is growing more than limerick. For example, lets say Limerick city is growing by 12% per annum and Cork city grows by only 10% per annum, since Cork already has a greater population, 10% of its population is greater than a 12% rise in Limericks. So in a way both of you are actually right.



You made the point, clearly you made it. this was all I wanted to clear up with him. Some people from Cork do have an over tendancy to exaggerate about the city....

How it has 300,000:rolleyes: 3/4 quarter of the county, yet its still the greater cork:D

Greater Dublin doesn't take in all of North Dublin....It takes the suburbs that's sprawls intot the borders Kildare, Meath and North Wicklow.

The bullshit is all that annoys me about this rant from Mickydoc's. He's been corrected a few times by a few people on the true figures for the cities. Like Cork having 189,000 in the census. He would state 200.000. Limerick almost 91,000 he would state 90,000. If your gonna post facts, post's the facts and not the bullshit.:)
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Re: Developments in Cork

Postby starchaser » Mon Jun 15, 2009 8:12 pm

QUOTE=dave123;96318]You made the point, clearly you made it. this was all I wanted to clear up with him. Some people from Cork do have an over tendancy to exaggerate about the city....

How it has 300,000:rolleyes: 3/4 quarter of the county, yet its still the greater cork:D

Greater Dublin doesn't take in all of North Dublin....It takes the suburbs that's sprawls intot the borders Kildare, Meath and North Wicklow.

The bullshit is all that annoys me about this rant from Mickydoc's. He's been corrected a few times by a few people on the true figures for the cities. Like Cork having 189,000 in the census. He would state 200.000. Limerick almost 91,000 he would state 90,000. If your gonna post facts, post's the facts and not the bullshit.:)[/QUOTE]

Sorry but have to correct you on your Dublin statistics. Greater Dublin as people sometimes refer is Dublin and surrounding counties (greater Leinster?) None of Dublins suburbs spill into the surrounding counties. These are called commuter towns and while a lot of Dublin natives now live in these towns, that doesn't mean they have become suburbs of Dublin but rather these Dubliners have become culchies ;)
Dublin city has 495,000, Dublin city + suburbs 1.2m, greater Dublin/Leinster 1.6m
And what is it with the natives inflating the population and always comparing Dublin to New York or London :confused:
Could never get my head around that one
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Re: Developments in Cork

Postby mickeydocs » Tue Jun 16, 2009 10:14 am

dave123 wrote:You made the point, clearly you made it. this was all I wanted to clear up with him. Some people from Cork do have an over tendancy to exaggerate about the city....

How it has 300,000:rolleyes: 3/4 quarter of the county, yet its still the greater cork:D

Greater Dublin doesn't take in all of North Dublin....It takes the suburbs that's sprawls intot the borders Kildare, Meath and North Wicklow.

The bullshit is all that annoys me about this rant from Mickydoc's. He's been corrected a few times by a few people on the true figures for the cities. Like Cork having 189,000 in the census. He would state 200.000. Limerick almost 91,000 he would state 90,000. If your gonna post facts, post's the facts and not the bullshit.:)


How have I been corrected. I have posted the figures from the census. Limerick City has a population of 51,000, and 89,000 with the suburbs. How do you arrive at the greater population figure. How far out does that go?

Most of the population of County Cork is in the Cork harbour region. This area is approximately a 20 mile radius from the City of Cork. This area does have a population in excess of 300,000.

Here is a fact - both Cork and Limerick are tiny provincial towns in the European context.

Both towns and their greater populations will now struggle to remain at their existing populations as emigration will replace immigration.
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Re: Developments in Cork

Postby Jim Comic » Tue Jun 16, 2009 10:43 am

Traynor O'Toole got the cuh planning i hear
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Re: Limerick vs Cork

Postby green_jesus » Tue Jun 16, 2009 10:47 am

How has this anything to do with developments in Cork?

Please take your argument somewhere else.
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Re: Limerick vs Cork

Postby Pug » Tue Jun 16, 2009 11:06 am

green_jesus wrote:How has this anything to do with developments in Cork?

Please take your argument somewhere else.


well, to be fair, Jim Comic did mention cuh, by which i assume the reference is to the Beacon Private Clinic at Cork University Hospital for which Traynor O' Toole were the architects, theres another thread started for the beacon there jim comic, lash any info in there
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Re: Limerick vs Cork

Postby Jim Comic » Tue Jun 16, 2009 11:12 am

Pug wrote:well, to be fair, Jim Comic did mention cuh, by which i assume the reference is to the Beacon Private Clinic at Cork University Hospital for which Traynor O' Toole were the architects, theres another thread started for the beacon there jim comic, lash any info in there


er, that's all the info i have so nothing more to post

didn't see any beacon thread
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Re: Developments in Cork

Postby daniel_7 » Tue Jun 16, 2009 4:25 pm

didnt mean for my little rant to turn into a fight as to which is a better city. people need to get back to what the thread is actually about. does anyone have answers to the few questions i had put in there about a few developments or why it is that units seem to remain vacant in Cork alot longer than anywhere else and not attract certain chains?
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Re: Developments in Cork

Postby dave123 » Tue Jun 16, 2009 4:41 pm

mickeydocs wrote:
Most of the population of County Cork is in the Cork harbour region. This area is approximately a 20 mile radius from the City of Cork. This area does have a population in excess of 300,000.


Adding all the towns around cork.

Cork city has 118,000 and is decreasing rapidly. Since the census I'd say its the population is decreasing alot more



Both towns and their greater populations will now struggle to remain at their existing populations as emigration will replace immigration.



Don't think Limerick will struggle.
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Re: Developments in Cork

Postby daniel_7 » Tue Jun 16, 2009 6:10 pm

I wasnt going to get involved in it but Corks pop is in an around the 190 within the city boundry and around 380 within around a 30 min drive from the city. Dublins official pop is just over 500 and 1,186,159 in the county and Limericks was just over 50 officially and 90 in the county. Now can people shut up about it cause its starting to annoy me that i started this stupid arguement and get back to what the thread is about.
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Re: Developments in Cork

Postby lawyer » Tue Jun 16, 2009 7:14 pm

So now it seems as if we are going to have the Lancaster Quay hospital, the Beacon hospital and a planning application is in for change of use of part of the City Gate development in Mahon to include a 102 bed inpatient hospital.
I wonder where the money is going to come from.
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Re: Developments in Cork

Postby ToMuchFreeTime » Tue Jun 16, 2009 11:07 pm

Oooh pain in my head.

here are the facts as no one is supplying any citation. here is a government document stating the population of:

Cork city + suburbs 186 239
Limerick + suburbs 86 998

And within 45 Minute travel catchment

Cork city + suburbs 337 917
Limerick + suburbs 326 279

It also states that the Cork Metropolitan Area has a population of 252,000


So you see that cork is just over twice the size of limerick. limerick is not that far behind cork once an area of 45 minutes drive is taken into account.

The fact is that dublin has a much bigger built up area than cork.
The fact is that cork has a must bigger built up area than limerick + galway + waterford.

page 17

Several conclusions may be drawn from the above data.
Looking at Table 2.1, the large size of Dublin compared to the other existing gateways is immediately evident. The population of Cork, the second largest city in the Republic, as defined by the CSO (both city council and contiguous urban areas) is 19% of the corresponding population for Dublin, highlighting a wide gap in the population
ranking of Ireland’s two largest cities.

The other three gateways of Limerick, Galway and Waterford are also considerably smaller than Dublin, but also in a lower size-band to Cork. Cork, in fact, is equal in population to the other three gateways combined. These discrepancies in size have fundamental implications for gateway policies in Ireland.

With such differences in size, the competitive strengths are not equal and it is therefore extremely unlikely that individual gateways, apart from Cork, will be able to produce a substantial momentum, complementary to Dublin, on their own.



http://www.irishspatialstrategy.ie/pdfs/Atlantic%20Gateways%20Report%20-%20final%20pdf%20-%20sep06.pdf


And to finish it off the growth direction of cork and limerick

page 56

In Cork, the outward expansion of the city’s influence can be seen both to the east and the west along the coast, with an extended development zone now stretching from near Youghal on the east, almost reaching Clonakilty on the west. In addition, strong expansion to the north is clear with significant fingers of population growth in that
area.
Indeed, a pattern of continuous development between Cork and Mallow seems to be emerging. The Cork gateway is therefore extending both towards Limerick (via the Mallow hub) and to East Cork towards Waterford

Limerick, Ennis and Shannon display considerable outward growth as a single population zone, with the most intensive increases north of Limerick City into County Clare. Fingers of population growth also extend south to Limerick county and north of Limerick around Lough Derg. Ennis is evident as a point of strong growth, with considerable spillovers into west Clare and also north towards the Galway county boundary



Now i hope this settles this or will i be forced to do more research:p:D
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Re: Developments in Cork

Postby jungle » Wed Jun 17, 2009 9:34 am

I don't really want to get involved in the Cork v. Limerick discussion, but surely 45 mins doesn't mean that much given that
  • There's overlap between Cork and Limerick, including Charleville and Mallow
  • There's overlap between Galway and Limerick, including Ennis
  • There's overlap between Cork and Waterford
Not sure there's any major overlap in the last category though as I'd say Dungarvan is more than 45 mins from Cork, while Youghal is more than 45 mins from Waterford. Only small places like Ardmore would fit in.

It's interesting that they've just summed the figures when there is that overlap.
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Re: Developments in Cork

Postby starchaser » Wed Jun 17, 2009 12:33 pm

and 45 minutes from mallow or fermoy or castletroy, does that mean that these towns have populations in excess of 300,000? 45 minutes by plane from dublin - does that make the dublin region 4 or 5 million? 45 minutes from London - by car maybe 20 million, by train maybe 30 million, by plane- maybe 90 million. what kind of an argument is that? :confused:
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