The destruction of St. Stephen's Green

Re: The destruction of St. Stephen's Green

Postby PVC King » Sun Apr 19, 2009 10:23 am

Global Citizen wrote:Points 1 and 3 are poor reasons why the Eircom building sould be ruled out as a potential site for the metro station.
So what if block C starts 2 floors down.

And is the fact that the place has fabulous air conditioning hardly a good reason to preserve it ?

I think the park in Stephens Green provides far more air conditioning for the centre of Dublin.


The point being made is simply that the three Eircom blocks are good commercial space that have a solid commercial value of hundreds of millions of pounds; due to extensive site coverage and the space remaining in good condition there is not sufficient commercial angle in demolishing these buildings to replace them with alternative structures. The fact that Block C starts 2 floors down means that if you built a station concourse you would remove existing space and remove the ability to add more space within existing building lines or the increased building lines that would be acceptable to planners. When the external air temperature is 30c no neighbouring space will provide a comfortable working environment; given the amount of IT equipment that a telecoms company uses M & E services are vital to productivity.

In situations where the space is of poor quality and site coverage low by modern standards there would be a clear angle and it would be possible to ask the developer for a significant development levy. If you demolish the Eircom holding you might create a 30% uplift in value and face a development levy of 20-30% removing any incentive to do it as the development risks would outweigh what would be likely to be a net single digit return on what would be very significant investment. In contrast the railway sidings at both Inchicore and Spencer Dock would have no opportunity cost.

NotJim wrote:Is Daimer Hall the Unitarian church?


Yes the Unitarian Church is called Daimer Hall and is a very fine example of a Victorian Neo-Gothic Church; if it survived the late 1970's and early 1980's I'd be confident it would not be at risk unless relocated stone by stone to an appropriate location but even that would concern very many people.
PVC King
 

Re: The destruction of St. Stephen's Green

Postby notjim » Sun Apr 19, 2009 11:28 am

Thanks PVC King, I didn't know the name of the Unitarian Church and yes, if it survived the building of the Eircom Building it can hopefully survive anything. This is completely off-topic but I would love to know what's going to happen with all the RCSI owned buildings around here; there is a big court battle over the Eircom Building but there are also all these rumours that RCSI is thinking off moving, added to that, the DIT property on Aungiers street would be an obvious expansion for them.
notjim
 
Posts: 1708
Joined: Tue Mar 06, 2001 1:00 am
Location: Dublin

Re: The destruction of St. Stephen's Green

Postby missarchi » Sun Apr 19, 2009 12:37 pm

the past...
Attachments
greene.jpg
greene.jpg (88.26 KiB) Viewed 4256 times
greene1.jpg
greene1.jpg (188.69 KiB) Viewed 4254 times
greene2.jpg
greene2.jpg (173.72 KiB) Viewed 4252 times
missarchi
Old Master
 
Posts: 1796
Joined: Sat Dec 08, 2007 7:53 pm

Re: The destruction of St. Stephen's Green

Postby Paul Clerkin » Sun Apr 19, 2009 12:59 pm

User avatar
Paul Clerkin
Old Master
 
Posts: 5427
Joined: Wed Mar 03, 1999 1:00 am
Location: Monaghan

Re: The destruction of St. Stephen's Green

Postby Devin » Thu Jun 04, 2009 1:26 pm

I came accross this. Did this appear earlier. Maybe not.

Image
Devin
Old Master
 
Posts: 1509
Joined: Fri Dec 12, 2003 10:27 pm
Location: Dublin

Re: The destruction of St. Stephen's Green

Postby Peter Fitz » Thu Jun 04, 2009 1:50 pm

do you know when it dates from Devin ?
Peter Fitz
 

Re: The destruction of St. Stephen's Green

Postby Devin » Thu Jun 04, 2009 2:26 pm

Date not given, but it looks to me to be about 1890-1910.
Devin
Old Master
 
Posts: 1509
Joined: Fri Dec 12, 2003 10:27 pm
Location: Dublin

Re: The destruction of St. Stephen's Green

Postby missarchi » Fri Jun 05, 2009 3:42 am

It has fog of western front feel about it! cold winter...
Where do I go for a hot chocolate?
missarchi
Old Master
 
Posts: 1796
Joined: Sat Dec 08, 2007 7:53 pm

Re: The destruction of St. Stephen's Green

Postby Peter Fitz » Fri Jun 05, 2009 9:28 am

Devin wrote:Date not given, but it looks to me to be about 1890-1910.


Looks like it, many of the trees siginificantly pre-date the green's formal layout in 1880.
Peter Fitz
 

Re: The destruction of St. Stephen's Green

Postby tommyt » Fri Jun 05, 2009 9:42 am

Devin wrote:Date not given, but it looks to me to be about 1890-1910.


Doesn't traitor's gate commerorate the Boer War? Would that place it 1910 at the earliest:confused:
tommyt
Member
 
Posts: 455
Joined: Mon Oct 18, 2004 7:39 pm
Location: D5

Re: The destruction of St. Stephen's Green

Postby StephenC » Fri Jun 05, 2009 1:17 pm

The Boer War ended in 1901 so i would suggest middle to end of the decade. The Arch looks quite new and clean.
User avatar
StephenC
Old Master
 
Posts: 2497
Joined: Mon Jul 16, 2001 12:00 am
Location: Dublin

Re: The destruction of St. Stephen's Green

Postby PVC King » Sat Jun 06, 2009 11:49 am

tommyt wrote:Doesn't traitor's gate commerorate the Boer War?


Exactly the type of langauge used in the 1960's to justify the destruction of a lot of fine buildings as they were 'colonial relics' according to the mohair suit brigade.

Regardless of age it is a fine piece of work in classical style that could hold its own anywhere in Europe but these arches are rarely as well executed due to the exceptional quality of craftsmenship and perfect symmetry to its original setting.

I note David Slattery was the conservation consultant to the RPA, he doesn't really have a very long track record in non-development situations or non-profits.
PVC King
 

Re: The destruction of St. Stephen's Green

Postby missarchi » Sat Jun 06, 2009 12:56 pm

It is interesting how they went from pulling it down to retaining.
There is a drawing somewhere on the RPA website don't expect any dimensions
missarchi
Old Master
 
Posts: 1796
Joined: Sat Dec 08, 2007 7:53 pm

Re: The destruction of St. Stephen's Green

Postby GregF » Sat Jun 06, 2009 2:58 pm

The whole multi-billion euro Metro proposal should be put on hold since the country is allegedly bankrupt and the tax payer burdened with enough debt.


New buses will suffice for the time being!


A present cultureless buffoon Taoiseach who was former minister for finance and who was totally unaware of the impending global downturn in the markets and the impending finacial crisis despite enough warnings, and who never put something by for a rainy day either (while we were rolling in it), would pursue such an idea in these times.
User avatar
GregF
Old Master
 
Posts: 1610
Joined: Tue Oct 31, 2000 1:00 am
Location: Dublin, Ireland

Re: The destruction of St. Stephen's Green

Postby rumpelstiltskin » Sat Jun 06, 2009 5:26 pm

GregF wrote:The whole multi-billion euro Metro proposal should be put on hold since the country is allegedly bankrupt and the tax payer burdened with enough debt.


New buses will suffice for the time being!


A present cultureless buffoon Taoiseach who was former minister for finance and who was totally unaware of the impending global downturn in the markets and the impending finacial crisis despite enough warnings, and who never put something by for a rainy day either (while we were rolling in it), would pursue such an idea in these times.


I'm not sure putting more people out of work in the construction sector and clogging the streets with more buses is necessarily the most "cultured" option.
rumpelstiltskin
Member
 
Posts: 234
Joined: Thu Mar 12, 2009 6:51 pm

Re: The destruction of St. Stephen's Green

Postby Devin » Sat Jun 06, 2009 5:50 pm

PVC King wrote:I note David Slattery was the conservation consultant to the RPA, he doesn't really have a very long track record in non-development situations or non-profits.
Ahh David Slattery - the bane of conservation campaigners everywhere! Whenever there's a few 'awkwardly located' historic buildings on a development site, he's the one to call. All the big developers use him, though I don't know why. His reports are stone age affairs - photos and bits of text glued on to a page, then colour-copied - and he still dines out on his restoration of the Custom House 20 years.
Devin
Old Master
 
Posts: 1509
Joined: Fri Dec 12, 2003 10:27 pm
Location: Dublin

Re: The destruction of St. Stephen's Green

Postby tommyt » Sat Jun 06, 2009 8:18 pm

[quote="PVC King"]Exactly the type of langauge used in the 1960's to justify the destruction of a lot of fine buildings as they were 'colonial relics' according to the mohair suit brigade.

I agree PVCK, I am from impeccable west brit stock meself, all my mother's family took the queen's shilling and it is my heritage, AFAIK I have distant relations shamefully commemorated on that arch-I just think it's one of the great Dubcentric term for our numerous monumental follies-now renaming the streets who were named after obscure lord lieutenants and minor married-in royalty in favour of philo, oul brendan behan, bang bang and the like, that's my particular drum banging soapbox;)
tommyt
Member
 
Posts: 455
Joined: Mon Oct 18, 2004 7:39 pm
Location: D5

Re: The destruction of St. Stephen's Green

Postby missarchi » Sun Jun 07, 2009 2:05 am

business park?
Will modernism traditionalism and national treasure combine?
missarchi
Old Master
 
Posts: 1796
Joined: Sat Dec 08, 2007 7:53 pm

Re: The destruction of St. Stephen's Green

Postby PVC King » Sun Jun 07, 2009 11:19 am

GregF wrote:The whole multi-billion euro Metro proposal should be put on hold since the country is allegedly bankrupt and the tax payer burdened with enough debt.


More interesting has been the complete wipe out of the greens; instead of pushing unviable metro's in the Times Eammon Ryan would have been far better stopping other white elephants such as the Carlow to Waterford Dual Carriageway and Western Rail corridor.

Thankfully the global picture looks a lot better of late and a recovery is coming next year, but in an economy that is growing at any less than 8% a year this project is decades away from viabilitiy.

TT

I knew that if I thought you were serious I'd not have said it!
PVC King
 

Re: The destruction of St. Stephen's Green

Postby alonso » Sun Jun 07, 2009 2:22 pm

so you're saying only a Celtic Tiger economy (8% grovth) can build rail? That's a bit much. Any transport investment that makes sense in a boom retains it's logic in a dovvnturn... in many vvay it makes even more sen$e coz con$truction co$t$ are lovver
alonso
Senior Member
 
Posts: 975
Joined: Sun Sep 03, 2006 9:33 pm

Re: The destruction of St. Stephen's Green

Postby GregF » Sun Jun 07, 2009 10:00 pm

alonso wrote:so you're saying only a Celtic Tiger economy (8% grovth) can build rail? That's a bit much. Any transport investment that makes sense in a boom retains it's logic in a dovvnturn... in many vvay it makes even more sen$e coz con$truction co$t$ are lovver



Oh indeed, that sounds logical, but realistically and materially, the Irish tax payer is all of a sudden burdened with massive debts, so where is this billions of euro money to be found when the government coffers are non existant?
User avatar
GregF
Old Master
 
Posts: 1610
Joined: Tue Oct 31, 2000 1:00 am
Location: Dublin, Ireland

Re: The destruction of St. Stephen's Green

Postby notjim » Sun Jun 07, 2009 10:11 pm

Can't we leave this argument for the other thread so we can avoid reading it.

http://www.archiseek.com/content/showthread.php?t=6511&page=11
notjim
 
Posts: 1708
Joined: Tue Mar 06, 2001 1:00 am
Location: Dublin

Re: The destruction of St. Stephen's Green

Postby mickeydocs » Sun Jun 07, 2009 10:35 pm

tommyt wrote:
PVC King wrote:Exactly the type of langauge used in the 1960's to justify the destruction of a lot of fine buildings as they were 'colonial relics' according to the mohair suit brigade.

I agree PVCK, I am from impeccable west brit stock meself, all my mother's family took the queen's shilling and it is my heritage, AFAIK I have distant relations shamefully commemorated on that arch-I just think it's one of the great Dubcentric term for our numerous monumental follies-now renaming the streets who were named after obscure lord lieutenants and minor married-in royalty in favour of philo, oul brendan behan, bang bang and the like, that's my particular drum banging soapbox;)


Excellent post. Destroying Stephen's Green would be an unmitigated act of vandalism. So what if these buildiings/parks were built by a now deposed oligarchy - they represent the most beautiful parts of Dublin (only beautiful parts of Dublin).
mickeydocs
Member
 
Posts: 317
Joined: Thu Jun 24, 2004 1:56 pm

Re: The destruction of St. Stephen's Green

Postby JoePublic » Sun Jun 07, 2009 10:50 pm

notjim wrote:Can't we leave this argument for the other thread so we can avoid reading it.


Indeed. Any further cost-benefit analysis done on metro north should include the quality of life improvement on not having to read the same two posts over and over again on every discussion board in the country if they just build the feckin thing.
JoePublic
Member
 
Posts: 187
Joined: Sun Apr 08, 2007 4:26 pm

Re: The destruction of St. Stephen's Green

Postby marmajam » Mon Jun 08, 2009 4:13 am

Tender bids are below 2 Billion.
Paid for with infrastructure bond at 5%.
Thousands off the dole during construction of 4/5 years, with social security savings and added VAT and tax receipts.
Political will firmly behind it.
Not looking good for the anti metro constituency........
only thing left for them are misinformation rants on message boards.
marmajam
Member
 
Posts: 247
Joined: Tue Mar 03, 2009 7:18 am

PreviousNext

Return to Ireland