old illustrations of cork

[starchaser]

this is not an illustration but it is a fantastic picture of Merchants Quay.

i hope this works.



my first post

Really like that photo. Here's another of the same quay now from a different angle

[starchaser]

this is not an illustration but it is a fantastic picture of Merchants Quay.

i hope this works.



my first post

Really like that photo. Here's another of the same quay now from a different angle

[Leesider]

Tis great to see those lovely public toilets have stood the test of time! ;-)

[starchaser]

Tis great to see those lovely public toilets have stood the test of time! ;-)

Yeah but I'd say the last time they were cleaned was back around the time the first photo was taken

[BTH]

Poor old Merchants Quay... Has to be a contender for the ugliest monstrosity in Ireland, particularly given what it replaced... Is there any sort of vision for something to be done about it? I don't mean a reclad or whatever, the whole thing needs the bulldozers in urgently!

[venividi]

Poor old Merchants Quay... Has to be a contender for the ugliest monstrosity in Ireland, particularly given what it replaced... Is there any sort of vision for something to be done about it? I don't mean a reclad or whatever, the whole thing needs the bulldozers in urgently!

As a newcomer to Cork I must agree with all of you - the Merchants Quay shopping centre is one of the worst, if not the worst building in Cork in every aspect.

But, judging by the photo, I can't agree that what was there before was of any real value. What a wasted chance.

And, to contribute to the thread, a postcard of - then - King Street:

[Praxiteles]

Thanks to Gunter for adverting to this view of Cork by Anthony Charnley whihc appeared as a long fold-out in Charles Smith's History of Cork published in 1750.

[Fishy]

Super photo of merchants quay, never saw it before. There were some great old Cork pubs along here. Lots of happy memories. Looks a lot better than the monstrosity from the DUNNESTOREShaus school of architecture.

[gunter]

Can somebody clear this up for me:



Is this painting by John Butts circa 1755 (possibly otherwise Jonathan Butt, with a date of circa 1760), or is it by Nathaniel Grogan circa 1780?

The Crawford website lists it as View of Cork by John Butts, but when you click on the picture itself, the identification code includes the name Nathaniel Grogan!

Web searches on Nathaniel Grogan turn up what appears to be the same painting with some biography notes that suggest that Grogan studied under 'local painter', John Butts.

I've previously posted details of the painting on the 'Billy' thread but these were taken from extracts reproduced in recent publications which attributed the painting to Butts, I can't locate a copy of the full painting which has enough resolution to to be sure that we're not looking at two different, but very similar, paintings.

The date is obviously important for any discussion on the comparisons with the great Chearnley view posted above by Praxiteles.

[Praxiteles]

The painting was originally atributed to Nathaniel Grogan but is now regarded as being by Butts.

[Praxiteles]

JOHN BUTTS (C.1728-1764) T
The short-lived John Butts was one of the pioneering artists of the generation before William Ashford and Thomas Roberts.He was born in Cork and he was to immortalise his native city in the important View of Cork recently acquired by the Crawford Art Gallery. In addition, Butts taught the two greatest Irish artists of the century, Thomas Roberts and James Barry. The latter on his hearing of Butts’s death gave a poignant eulogy, in which he clearly identified many of his own frustrations with his fellow Corkonian.

I am indeed sensibly touched with the fate of poor Butts… who with all his merit never met with anything but cares and misery, which I may say hunted him into the very grave…His being bred in Cork excluded him from many advantages; this he made evident by the surprising change of his manner on his going to Dublin; his fancy which was luxuriant, he confined to its just bounds, his tone of colouring grew more variegated and concordant, and his pencilling, which was always spirited, assumed a tenderness and vivacity.

Butts moved to Dublin in 1757 finding employment as a scene painter in Crow Street Theatre. In this he followed the example of William van der Hagen, Joseph Tudor, John Lewis and Robert Carver. However, if Pasquin is to be believed, his intemperate habits and irregular lifestyle forced him to take on menial jobs such as painting coach panels to support himself and his young family – and ultimately led to his early death.

Butts’s work is extremely rare and his small oeuvre is still being refined, a process made difficult by the variety of styles in which he worked – as noted by Barry in the quote above. Recently on the art market was his important work Into the Hands of the Shades, a highly personal take on Poussin’s Et in Arcadia Ego, and which seemingly prefigures his own early death. The normally critical Pasquin, recognised Butts’s worth describing him as ‘one of the most brilliant artists that Ireland ever brought forth’ while Thomas Campbell rated his work even as superior to that of Roberts and Ashford: ‘I have seen a picture by Butts; whose fame here is above that of all the others, though his death was premature’.

[Praxiteles]

The picture shows Cork ante 1764

[gunter]

I could have saved myself a lot of bother if I'd just asked you that question six hours ago

Would you like another challenge?

A few years before Charles Smith published his History of Cork in 1750, he produced a History of Waterford and again it appears that he enlisted the services of Anthony Chearnley to provide the topographical views.

The question is, where might one obtain a high resolution copy of Chearnley's view of Waterford City, from that publication? . . the National Library were a bit reluctant to let me whip out my digital camera

. . . as with his view of Cork, the Chearnley view of Waterford City is from the north bank of the river and is laden with Billys

Much fun could be had in trying to match the quay front houses with those shown in the van der Hagen view.

[Praxiteles]

For a start, try the digital online library of the University of Villanova, USA.

[gunter]

Praxiteles posted this print earlier in the thread:


The view is of the north side of Northgate with a carriage entering the city. I think there is a suggestion that this view may be by Grogan.

Below is a photocopy of a similar view, this time with a carriage leaving the city and there are a number of details in this image which might suggest that, even though it is a bit child-like in it's execution, that it may be the earlier of the two images and the one on which the other is based. There is fuller range of houses shown in the distance in the second image, but unfortunately the clarity of the copy is too poor to discuss them in detail.



Has anyone come across a better copy of this image, or know who the artist is? Is there a third view of the Northgate on which both may be based?