Limerick Boat Club ~ Wellesley Pier ~ Poor ManÂ’s Kilkee ~ Sarsfield Bridge

Limerick Boat Club ~ Wellesley Pier ~ Poor Man’s Kilkee ~ Sarsfield Bridge

Postby CologneMike » Mon Mar 02, 2009 6:14 pm

The following are copies of posts from the thread “well what about the developments popping up in the shannonside?”
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Re: Limerick Boat Club ~ Wellesley Pier ~ Poor Man’s Kilkee ~ Sarsfield Bridge

Postby CologneMike » Mon Mar 02, 2009 6:18 pm

11th October 2006
mopeds wrote:I read recently that Limerick Boat club is to close. The building is to be knocked to make way for another Apartment Block. Is no old building in Limerick safe anymore.

This is such a beautiful area what a shame to have another glass block of a building in the way


11th October 2006
Limerick Guy wrote:I think the apartment idea is bullshít, doesnt seem possible, but boat club is closing down, they never paid their license.


13th October 2006
billy the squid wrote:
mopeds wrote:I read recently that Limerick Boat club is to close. The building is to be knocked to make way for another Apartment Block. Is no old building in Limerick safe anymore.

This is such a beautiful area what a shame to have another glass block of a building in the way

From City Council
Dear Sir,

The premises you mention is a protected structure in the Limerick City Development Plan. Limerick City Council have received no proposal, formal or otherwise, for the development of the site.



17th November 2006
justnotbothered wrote:City revamp on way

Marie Hobbins

"Pedestrianisation of the quays is worth investigating with an open mind,” said Cllr Ryan who adds: "our river is our biggest asset and we should be looking at extending areas of the quays out on to the river and imaginatively developing them,” he said.

Cllr O’Hanlon urged a rethink on the quays and the potential they present to develop the city’s riverscape into a "beautiful city landmark area.” He said it is his understanding that a new City Library to replace the existing building on Michael Street will be built on Poor Man’s Kilkee, but this could not be confirmed at time of gong to press as city librarian, Dolores Doyle, was not available for comment.

City Council’s director of services, Pat Dromey, told the councillors that the Council "will take another look at the quays” and that a full report will be provided in early spring.

The architect, Nicholas de Jong, who is overseeing the city centre renewal programme, was not available for comment


20th November 2006
CologneMike wrote:Limerick Boat Club / Poor Man’s Kilkee

The rumour mill rumbles on! If given the option of a new library on “Poor Man’s Kilkee” or sitting blissfully illiterate on a bench there enjoying what ever the river Shannon has to offer, I would chose the latter every time!
Would the nearby closed Franciscan Church on Lower Henry / Bedford Row not be an ideal re-location for the City library?

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See Mary Immaculate College may Acquire Franciscan Church: http://newswire99.blogspot.com/2006/07/mary-immaculate-college-may-acquire.html


Photo’s from
http://www.limerickcity.ie
http://www.riversidecity.ie/

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22nd December 2006
CologneMike wrote:Multi-million plan for Limerick Boat Club (Limerick Leader)

By AINE FITZGERALD

http://www.limerickleader.ie/ViewArticle2.aspx?SectionID=3419&ArticleID=1942270

AN AMBITIOUS multi-million euro development plan to transform the Limerick Boat Club into a state-of-the-art facility has been revealed this week.

Proposals for the facility off Sarsfield Bridge are to coincide with Limerick city's regeneration programme and the 'riverside city' development and include a museum, coffee shops, tourist information services, facilities for the theatre and the arts as well as a new pedestrian bridge linking the facility to Harvey's Quay and up onto the newly pedestrianised Bedford Row. "Our objective is to take advantage of the current riverside city programme to improve our facilities, while at the same time securing the future of Limerick Boat Club on Sarsfield Bridge and thereby promoting the sport of rowing in Limerick for generations to come," said Dermot Moloney, president, Limerick Boat Club. Limerick Boat Club, or the Boat Club as it is affectionately known, has a proud tradition of boating on Wellesley Pier on Sarsfield Bridge since 1870-making it one of Limerick's oldest sporting clubs. Working closely with Limerick City Hall, the new development will be a joint initiative between Limerick Boat Club and a leading Limerick based development company, Fordmount Property Group the developers behind the Riverpoint building and the multi-million euro complex on the site of the old Savoy cinema. "The facility is not going to be a Riverpoint or a Clarion. It is not going to be enormous. What we are aiming to achieve is a building which is sensitive to its surroundings, that is tastefully done and that will enchance the riverside city development," explained Michael Daly, Developer, Fordmount Property Group. At Limerick Boat Club's 136th Annual General Meeting last month, detailed proposals were presented to the general membership and it was unanimously agreed that the proposed development should be submitted to the planning process with the assistance of the various parties involved. The architects engaged in the development are led by a former oarsman from Queens University Rowing Club and have a wealth of experience in similar ambitious urban design projects. "If we can get the support of the city and all those interested in promoting the sport of rowing in the city, it is hoped that plans could be submitted in the spring of 2007 and with a fair wind at our back, we would hope to be rowing out of the new, fully functional, state-of-the-art facility in the latter half of 2008," said Mr Moloney.
21 December 2006

See Post: http://www.archiseek.com/content/showpost.php?p=59454&postcount=932
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Re: Limerick Boat Club ~ Wellesley Pier ~ Poor Man’s Kilkee ~ Sarsfield Bridge

Postby CologneMike » Mon Mar 02, 2009 6:25 pm

23rd December 2006
CologneMike wrote:Multi-million plan for Limerick Boat Club (Limerick Leader)

Interesting proposals for the Limerick Boat and Club house (red brick buildings), just off the Sarsfield Bridge.
Question: Will “Poor Man’s Kilkee” remain an open green space?

Include a museum, coffee shops, tourist information services, facilities for the theatre and the arts.


Question: Will we have two tourist information centres or does this have consequences for Arthur’s Quay????
Question: I presume it also includes a new Club and Boat House?
Question: Is the site large enough for all these activities?
Question: Will Cheebah’s “Roots” be able to return to use the Arts / Theatre facilities? http://cheebah.typepad.com/

A new pedestrian bridge linking the facility to Harvey's Quay and up onto the newly pedestrianised Bedford Row.


Question: This probably means “Poor Man’s Kilkee“ and Wellesley Pier (Limerick Boat Club) will be bridged?
Question: Will a bridge here not restrict boats entering / leaving the Abbey Weir to the Shannon?

It is not going to be enormous.


Question: Will it complement the bridge?
Question: Will it affect the view of the Shannon Boat Club on the other side?

The architects engaged in the development are led by a former oarsman from Queens University Rowing Club and have a wealth of experience in similar ambitious urban design projects.


Question: Access to Wellesley Pier from Sarsfield Bridge to be maintained?
Question: Will it affect the location of the 1916 Memorial ;) (Former Fitzgibbon Statue) on the Bridge?

Image # 1: Entrance to Boat club left of the 1916 Memorial.

Image # 2: Former Fitzgibbon Statue: Boat and Club House in background.

Image # 3: View of Limerick Boat Club from Harvey’s Quay.

Image # 4: View of Quays. Pedestrianised it has great potential as Limerick’s “Recreational mile”.

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23rd December 2006
justnotbothered wrote:The Boat Club plan has all the hallmarks of a "please everyone, please no-one" construction. As with every development on the river, it purports to be all things to all people, a cultural amenity, a sportsclub, a tourist site, a coffee house, and yet it won't be "enormous", how exactly? How does it either complement the river or the city? With the university building a top class rowing facility, does Limerick need this or has the boat club ended as a useful institution in the city? We already have Athlunkard, Shannon and St. Micheals as city-centre rowing clubs. Why should the current buildings be de-listed?

Why build on the river? There are so many sites and streets in Limerick in need for refurbishment, why risk losing one of unique buildings in Limerick when so much has already been lost? Why does the ESB site remain undeveloped? Or the old Dunnes? Surely the council should be working on these areas before delisting historic buildings?

What's incredibly worrying is the implied compliance by the city council, we know they are very easily influenced by developers, evidenced by Cllr's Jim Long's hilarious flip-flopping over the Westfields plan, though I believe it was ignorant good intentions more than anything sinister, or the Opera centre, where it was left to an independant architect to appeal the needless destruction of a Georgian street, inspite of what may be called developers bribes to her. Have our City Fathers become so desperate for development that virtually every development must go unchecked? Limerick is definately an imporiving city, there's no doubting that, but let's hold on to some of the historic buildings of our city.


23rd December 2006
CologneMike wrote:
justnotbothered wrote:The Boat Club plan has all the hallmarks of a "please everyone, please no-one" construction. As with every development on the river, it purports to be all things to all people, a cultural amenity, a sportsclub, a tourist site, a coffee house, and yet it won't be "enormous", how exactly? How does it either complement the river or the city?

Where is your sense of curiosity when somebody makes a proposal for such a potential cultural amenity? Would it not be fair to give the Limerick Boat Club and the developer Michael Daly an opportunity to present their plans first to the public. It’s one thing raising concerns about the consequences of any particular development, but it’s not positive to knock it outright before seeing what’s on offer. Innovatively and quality wise he has delivered very well on phase one of the Riverpoint. So when he says “What we are aiming to achieve is a building which is sensitive to its surroundings, that is tastefully done and that will enchance the riverside city development," explained Michael Daly, Developer, Fordmount Property Group”, I’m curious to see despite my own reservations, what he will present. Are you not?


23rd December 2006
justnotbothered wrote:I'm sad to say my sense of curiosity evapourated with my trust in developers a long time ago. Let's not forget that while Riverpoint is a very impressive building to look from a distance, at ground level it is the usual mesh of vents that ensure the street remains lifeless, sadly, it's ugliest floor is also it's street level floor.

Perhaps I am being unfair, it just seems that everytime someone wants to build on the river they drag out the same tired cultural improvements line, the city falls for it, and 9 months later we have an Arthur's Quay or a Steamboat Quay and the only culture involved is the ever decresing faith in developers.

Also, with the university building a top class rowing faciity, with 3city centre rowing clubs, I find it hard to have much sympathy for those who let Limerick Boat Club fall in to such disrepair that such dramatic surgery is needed.

All in all, I think the view of LBC, Shannon Boatclub with the castle in the backround, from the Shannon bridge, is an iconic view of Limerick, and doesn't need much improvement or destruction. Talk to me about development where it is needed and you'll get my full support.
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Re: Limerick Boat Club ~ Wellesley Pier ~ Poor Man’s Kilkee ~ Sarsfield Bridge

Postby CologneMike » Mon Mar 02, 2009 6:29 pm

24th December 2006
CologneMike wrote:
Originally Posted by justnotbothered
Why risk losing one of unique buildings in Limerick when so much has laready been lost? Surely the council should be working on these areas before delisting historic buildings?


Originally Posted by justnotbothered
All in all, I think the view of LBC, Shannon Boatclub with the castle in the backround, from the Shannon bridge, is an iconic view of Limerick, and doesn't need much improvement or destruction.

The two red brick buildings maybe listed, because they are a 100+ years old or so. If they are listed it still should not be a taboo to re-evaluate their status in light of the regeneration programme of the city especially with it’s emphasis on the 'riverside city project'. http://www.riversidecity.ie The new proposal is logically a good one for the Boat Club if of course they are part of the proposal. New facilities would bring more members into club and people onto the river. The Shannon River is a totally under utilised amenity in Limerick. Similar proposals would be good for St Michael’s on Cleeve’s Bank and the Curragour Boat house along side the Court house.

Personally I see very little architectural merit or charm in those red brick buildings as compared to the Shannon Rowing Club on the other side of the bridge. In fact it’s the cut-stone Sarsfield Bridge with it’s once movable metal sections between Wellesley Pier and Poor Man’s Kilkee that should be the major focus of attention and not these small add-ons.

Why not consider a third option which would see the Wellesley Pier return to it’s original state just like Poor Man’s Kilkee is today i.e. an open green space.
In my opinion by removing the red brick buildings it would:
(1) Greatly improve the view of the beautiful cut-stone bridge.
(2) Reveal the once movable part of Sarsfield Bridge.
(3) Wellesley Pier as an open green space would be accessible for every one.
(4) Docking permanently a sailing ship (Maritime Museum) along side Poor Man’s Kilkee.

Image # 1: Poor state of Limerick Boat Club.

Image # 2: Attractive front of Shannon Boat Club.

Image # 3: Rear perspective of Shannon Boat Club.

Image # 4: Site spot for a Sailing Ship (Maritime Museum) as it originally was?

Image # 5: Rare scene of the movable bridge as it opens it’s way to Arthur’s Quay.

Image # 6: Original shot of Bridge with no Boat House at all.

By the way Christmas greetings :) from the Rhine to all the other Shannon-side posters!

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24th December 2006
PoxyShamrock wrote:Yeah, I agree those red brick buildings being knocked wouldn't be much of a loss to the city, they are quiet an eyesore sometimes and are not of any architectural importance to me. On the other hand though the Shannon Boat Club is a highly impressive building and always looks stunning on a sunny day.

A Maritime Museum would be really nice but I don't know whether it would take off as an attraction...although something that works well in European Cities is having Stationary Boats used as Restaurants. Something along those lines could be popular with local diners. If they removed the two red brick buildings i would like to see it used as a public area rather than some other developments, what I'd like to see there would be a public space with one of those coffee kiosks along the river in the summer like Cruises Coffee Co. on Bachelors Walk in Dublin.

Limerick really needs to focus on the river in the future. The Riverside City project just isn't doing enough in my opinion, http://www.riversidecity.ie hasn't been updated in a long time and their projects don't seem to be arising. I think things like boat-trips and public areas along the river would really help Limerick's Riverside. Limerick City Council should also try and promote the Canal in Limerick and the beautiful Marina we have.


4th February 2007
justnotbothered wrote:Also, I notice Cllr. O'Hanlon is referring to the bridge between Poor Man's Kilkee and Limerick Boat Club as a seemingly done deal, and chatting to various sources, it seems that the usual standards will not apply to this development (one of the people involved was formerly very involved with the planning process in the city). I have seen the rough sketches, and i's nothing to write home about. Even worse, Limerick Boat Club are restricted to very small areas on the ground floor, imo, the club is finished, but has decided to go out with a flourish by selling it's heritage.


7th February 2007
CologneMike wrote:Ah jayus JustNotBothered, don’t torment us ;) over the rough sketches, any chance of posting them or at least give us a sketch of your own from what you have seen?


7th March 2007
justnotbothered wrote:Mike, I can't share the plans for the Boat club and it was silly of me to mention I'd seen them.



26th April 2007
vkid wrote:YET ANOTHER towering 20-storey glass fronted building could soon dominate the Limerick skyline

The building is proposed for the riverside site at Limerick Boat Club, who, as part of the package, will be provided with a new headquarters, at the same location. The club is also promised a yearly financial bonus.

The Limerick Post has learned that Michael Daly, who acts for the Fordmount Consortium, is behind the project. Fordmount are responsible for the Marriott Hotel and shops on Bedford Row. It was earlier revealed a footbridge across the river, from the Boat Club to Poor Man’s Kilkee, and leading into Bedford Row, was in the pipeline.

Concerns regarding the development have been expressed by Cllr Kathleen Leddin, who claims a developer has been in communication with City Council executives regarding the structure, to be built when the boat club is demolished.

The councillor, who earlier this week was told by director of services, Kieran Lehane that he was unaware of any preplanning process, called on the city planners to be sensitive to all aspects of the design plans, with particular relevance to the building’s impact on the prime quayside site.

"We must be very careful that we don’t ruin this vital part of the riverscape and also what we do with the Limerick Boat Club. Unfortunately, on the other side of the river, the Hilton Hotel complex is very disappointing, architecturally - we must ensure that whatever goes up here is vastly superior, more appropriate to its setting and more attractive to the eye”.

Cllr Leddin told the Limerick Post that although she failed to receive confirmation of preplanning discussion, she is reliably informed that the project is in train.

When contacted, Mayor Joe Leddin who is a longstanding member of Limerick Boat Club, disclosed that a leading city developer is actively engaged in driving the project forward.

"The boat club, which was built in 1870, is in a rapidly declining state of repair and professionally, we’ve been told that the best option is to demolish it and rebuild but financially, the club is in dire straits. The developer has come up with a deal on the basis that we surrender the site and he would build us a state-of-the-art boat club, slipways and the finance to buy new rowing boats. From the rents he secures from the upper floors of the building, which will be anything from 10 to 20 storeys high, he would pay us a fixed annual income, to be reviewed periodically. We would get a beautiful new club, great boat facilities and rowing on the river - as it is we’ve almost ceased to exist.”

"I can tell you there has been discussion with the officials in City Hall and the next step is to look at the drawings”.

At a meeting of Limerick City Council, John Field, head of finance, said that as the boat club site is zoned residential, a rezoning would be required to facilitate commercial development.

Mayor Leddin points out that should the developer opt to install a gym, leisure centre and other sports facilities in the new building, a rezoning would not be required.

"As part of the project, a new footbridge would link the site with Poor Man’s Kilkee. The city would retain one of the oldest boat clubs in the country and gain a new landmark building to enhance the riverside, but I share Cllr Kathleen’s concern that the project must be one that will greatly enhance rather than diminish the riverscape,” he said.
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Re: Limerick Boat Club ~ Wellesley Pier ~ Poor Man’s Kilkee ~ Sarsfield Bridge

Postby CologneMike » Mon Mar 02, 2009 6:33 pm

27th April 2007
CologneMike wrote:It’s very hard to imagine a 10 to 20 storey glass fronted building situated on the cut stone Sarsfield bridge without instinctively feeling that it is here out place. High rise buildings are more appropriate for the Docklands or on the Kerry Co-op site. It would impair views of St. Mary’s Cathedral and Shannon Boat club from the Cleeve’s river bank and distract attention away from the bridge itself. Maybe Justnotbothered might reveal more?

Photos courtesy of ecscw07 taken from Hilton hotel see link

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27th April 2007
justnotbothered wrote:The plans I was made aware of were of a four story glass building with Limerick boat club occupying the ground level, the other 3 floors given over to the developer, it's pretty ugly, imo. I imagine the 20 story plan is just to get people used to the idea so four stories will seem small by comparison.


29th September 2007
Tuborg wrote:Limerick Boat Club

Things appear to be moving along quicker than I thought here, apparently an application will be submitted before the end of next month. In order for any proposed development to go ahead the boat club would have to be removed from the register of protected structures, this can only be done at a special meeting of the City Council. According to a report in the Limerick Leader during the week, this meeting to de-list the boat club could take place in the next 2 or 3 weeks! The proposal seems to have the support of the council, with a few dissenting voices! Details are a bit sketchy but the development is said to consist of a mixture of restaurants and shops and of course new accomodation for the Boat club, it would also include a footbridge to poor mans kilkee!

Would I be right in thinking that one local paper claimed earlier on in the year that a 20 storey tower was to be built on the site? maybe they got their Euros and storeys mixed up! I must say I have reservations about this proposal, I tend to agree with Cllr Kathleen Leddins opinion, would this type of development be suitable beside a historic cutstone bridge? Should be interesting to see what the plans are like!

Historic Harris haunt to be levelled

PLANS are expected to be lodged with Limerick City Council shortly for the demolition of a historic sports club building where Richard Harris is reputed to have consumed his first pint of Guinness.

Limerick Boat Club, which stands on an island near Sarsfield Bridge, is to be levelled to make way for a €20 million signature piece development.

The man behind the project, Michael Daly of Fondmount Properties, said: “It is very much in the early stages, but we’ve a good bit of work done so far. We expect to have the model done in two weeks.”

Mr Daly has been responsible for a number of significant developments in the city, including the Riverpoint tower building.

However, some members of the city council are not very enthusiastic about the proposed redevelopment of the Limerick Boat Club site.

Cllr Kathleen Leddin said: “We don’t need another modern building on a very traditional looking bridge site. We already have the Hilton Hotel and the nearby apartments.”

But Labour representative Cllr Joe Leddin has given the proposal his full backing.

“This is a win-win situation for Limerick Boat Club. There is no use for this building in its current structure. We would be better off clearing the site and putting in a more attractive structure. The new building will complement the council’s riverside strategy.”

Cllr Kevin Kiely of Fine Gael is also supporting the proposed development.

“The building is a shambles at present. It is an eyesore and was never finished properly to begin with. The new building will accommodate the rowing club and give it a state-of-the art premises.”

Richard Harris was one of the many figures who spent social evenings at the boat club.

International singing star Burl Ives drank there most nights when he lived in the Limerick area and entertained members with renditions of his big hit A Little Bit of Tear Left Me Down.

Irish Examiner September 26, 2007


The images below come from derhur & rmcgervey at Flickr

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29th September 2007
Dan Sullivan wrote:The main boat club is listed but the shed isn't. What has changed since the building was listed? I think the councillors owe people an explanation of why they have changed their minds if they have done so.

I would be completely opposed to the suggested development, it seems to me from this remove to be more about enriching individuals than supporting the activities of the boat club. The state of the building would seem to imply little of any money was spent on its maintenance over the years and one has to wonder how many boat clubs does Limerick require.

I can't imagine that many of the other businesses in the area would be too impressed with large glass structure popping up there. It would be more in the line of the city councillors to do something about Dunnes and the Roches/Penney block. another trip to An Bord Pleanála I guess for a development on the river.
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Re: Limerick Boat Club ~ Wellesley Pier ~ Poor Man’s Kilkee ~ Sarsfield Bridge

Postby CologneMike » Mon Mar 02, 2009 6:37 pm

30th September 2007
CologneMike wrote:
Originally Posted by Tuborg
Limerick Boat Club

Should be interesting to see what the plans are like!



Tuborg, I’m just as curious. I wonder, what can Michael Daly with 20 million euro to invest, achieve here architecturally wise?

By the way do you think that the cut stone bridge needs improvement? I mean with these flowerpots / baskets swinging from it’s side or these “Christmas” lights hanging from lamp post to lamp post like Brighton pier? In my opinion they visibly just clutter up the bridge? It’s a beautiful bridge, needs only maintenance i.e. weed cleaning etc. As for lighting, just only emphasise the underneath arches with floodlights.

I see that the railings on the Condell bridge have been painted green. Does this railing colour compliment the developments at the round-about i.e. River point, Jury’s Hotel, Steamboat Quay?

Photos 1 and 2 courtesy from the ecscw07

Aerial photo circa 1970 courtesy DerHur

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1st October 2007
justnotbothered wrote:I have seen draft plans for the Limerick Boat club site, and predictably enough, it promises alot without delivering anything. It has at least 2 storeys with no windows facing the river, just bare plating.

The glass section looks interesting, but I have doubts over whether it'll be anything other than the usual high quality drawing, low quality building crap. It's also quite high, it will completely block views of Shannon rowing club from the Shannon bridge. The part reserved for the Boat Club is quite small, but I guess that's fitting, after all, they were the incompetent ones who ran their club into the ground anyway.

It's just another crap building to add to the crap buildings that are currently so beloved by our esteemed City leaders.


1st October 2007
Nautiman wrote:
Originally Posted by Dan Sullivan
The main boat club is listed but the shed isn't. What has changed since the building was listed? I think the councillors owe people an explanation of why they have changed their minds if they have done so.

I would be completely opposed to the suggested development, it seems to me from this remove to be more about enriching individuals than supporting the activities of the boat club. The state of the building would seem to imply little of any money was spent on its maintenance over the years and one has to wonder how many boat clubs does Limerick require.

I can't imagine that many of the other businesses in the area would be too impressed with large glass structure popping up there. It would be more in the line of the city councillors to do something about Dunnes and the Roches/Penney block. another trip to An Bord Pleanála I guess for a development on the river.


Dan,
To quote you on the Limerick Blogger 28/12/06 12:42am
"The rest of us will take the sensible course of reviewing the planning application and using the democratic process to make our objections or submissions should we have them while you send your time carping on the the comments section of someone else’s blog."

No planning application has been lodged by Limerick Boat Club so what planning application are you reviewing regarding the proposed development? I believe the Boat Club usable are will increase by over 160%.



1st October 2007
justnotbothered wrote:The plans have been around since April, as I'm sure you know Nautiman. What to you think of the two storey, windowless wall facing the river?

Course, why we need a Boat Club with no crews is a separate matter.


2nd October 2007
Dan Sullivan wrote:
Originally Posted by Nautiman
Dan,
To quote you on the Limerick Blogger 28/12/06 12:42am
"The rest of us will take the sensible course of reviewing the planning application and using the democratic process to make our objections or submissions should we have them while you send your time carping on the the comments section of someone else’s blog."

No planning application has been lodged by Limerick Boat Club so what planning application are you reviewing regarding the proposed development? I believe the Boat Club usable are will increase by over 160%


I'll be reviewing the planning application when it is lodged, and also contacting the local councillors to oppose the delisting of the boatclub. I outlined above my opposition to the delisting and also the suggested height of the proposed development or are you denying that a delisting is being sought or that plans are being shown to people?

How much do you stand to make out of all this, nautiman?


3rd October 2007
Nautiman wrote:How much do you stand to make out of all this, nautiman?

Absolutely nothing Dan.
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Re: Limerick Boat Club ~ Wellesley Pier ~ Poor Man’s Kilkee ~ Sarsfield Bridge

Postby CologneMike » Mon Mar 02, 2009 6:43 pm

7th October 2007
Tuborg wrote:
Originally Posted by CologneMike
By the way do you think that the cut stone bridge needs improvement? I mean with these flowerpots / baskets swinging from it’s side or these “Christmas” lights hanging from lamp post to lamp post like Brighton pier? In my opinion they visibly just clutter up the bridge? It’s a beautiful bridge, needs only maintenance i.e. weed cleaning etc. As for lighting, just only emphasise the underneath arches with floodlights.


Its always annoyed me, how little maintenance Sarsfield Bridge appears to get, the stone work is badly stained from traffic fumes and general weathering and theres fairly extensive vegetation growing on parts of it! I remember reading somewhere that the last proper spruce up the bridge received was for the European bridge heritage year (or something like that) in the mid 1970s!:(

I can just about live with the hanging baskets during the summer, in fairness I can see the city councils reasoning in having them but I definitely agree about the fairy lights! Initially they were put up for Christmas about 2 years ago, it seems they couldnt be bothered taking them down! Its shameful the way they've been hung along the old gas lanterns!

Sarsfield Bridge is a very under-rated structure to the extent that most locals wouldnt even think twice about it! It has a very interesting history and until the late 1980s was the main road bridge in the city!

This piece comes from The building of the Sarsfield Bridge by Padraig O MaidÍn;

The westward expansion of Limerick and the growth of its commerce made the construction of a new bridge across the Shannon and the improvement of the harbour facilities a vital necessity. A movement to further this objective soon developed and, accordingly, the people of the city petitioned Parliament for a new bridge and floating dock.

The decision to build the bridge was taken in 1823 when the Wellesley Bridge Act was passed at Westminster and forty- seven people were appointed to carry out the terms of the Act. These men were known as the Limerick Bridge Commissioners, they supervised the building of the bridge and later improved the quays on both sides of the river, levying tolls and dues to help finance this work. Since 1847 this body has been known as the Limerick Harbour Commissioners.

The preamble to the Act set out the wealth and importance of the city, the increase of its commerce and the want of direct communication with the counties Clare and Galway except by the very old and narrow Thomond Bridge, "inconveniently remote from the new and trading parts of the city". Thomond Bridge, which was to be rebuilt a few years later, was so narrow that no pathways had been provided only small recesses over the pillars where pedestrians could take refuge from vehicles passing each other.

"No one applied himself more zealously to the successful realization of this project than Mr. Thomas Spring Rice, M.P. concluded Maurice Lenihan. Commissioners were soon appointed for building the new bridge, which was called after the Lord Lieutenant of the time, the Marquis of Wellesley. A grant of 60,000 was approved for the work and for the construction of the proposed docks. It was decided to build the bridge from Brunswick (now Sarsfield) Street, across the Shannon to the North Strand. A Scottish engineer, Alexander Nimmo, who had built the imposing Spring Rice pillar in the People's Park, was chosen to design the bridge. He selected as his model the beautiful Pont Neiully over the Seine which, incidentally, had been the model in 1789 for the first St. Patrick's Bridge in Cork, which was demolished in 1839. The original Pont Neuilly was destroyed during the Siege of Paris in 1870.

The foundation stone of the new bridge was laid on October 25, 1824 by John Fitzgibbon, Earl of Clare, son of the notorious "Black Jack", and "was attended with all possible ceremony and eclat". The Fitzgibbon family had another link with the bridge. A monument to a grandson of "Black Jack", Lord Viscount Fitzgibbon, was placed on the bridge in 1855 to commemorate his death, in the Crimean War. This statue has been replaced by the 1916 memorial. The bridge had five arches of equal span, a swivel bridge, and also two land arches for the convenience of quay traffic. It took eleven years to complete and cost £89,061, that is 50% more than estimated, and was opened by the then Lord Lieutenant Mulgrave, on August 5, 1835. The work gave much needed employment but there were many who saw the bridge as an advantage only to the landed gentry on the Clare side of the city, and indeed as being a disadvantage to the real interests of the citizens.

Maurice Lenihan records that during the years spent on building the bridge, the new docks that had been promised below the bridge and which had been provided for in the Wellesley Act of 1823, lay in abeyance
and the merchants of the city were forced to pay exorbitant dues for an unfinished bridge which inconveniently interfered with the traffic of the port.

The parapet of the bridge at the west (or Clare) side was originally much handsomer than at present, being an exact replica of the east side. What brought about the change was the damage caused to the western parapet and a number of ballustrades during the terrifying storm of January 6, 1839, when some ships were battered against the bridge. The Commissioners decided to be pennywise and forever foolish in replacing the broken parapet with solid 'sparrow-picked' stone. The tolls on the bridge proved irksome and injurious to trade and eventually in 1883 it was made free of toll. Immediately, the Corporation held a meeting and changed the name of the bridge from Wellesley to Sarsfield and erected a plaque in the centre of the east parapet giving the new name. It was remarked at the time that the Town Council 'had many who are of the National League and Home Rule type, who desire a severance of the Union'. A remark which had at least the merit of being obvious.

A report published on July 16, 1831, gives us an insight into the state of society in Limerick during the building of the bridge. We learn of citizens stratified into "commen men", "gentlemen", and "landed gentry", we hear of "young bucks" who spent their leisure (i.e. their lives) boating on the Shannon, parading on the Crescent with the ladies, enjoying at least one glass of punch with their dinner, after which they retired to cock-fighting, billiards playing, and a late sojourn at Martin Power's Oyster Cellar in Shannon Street. Such living was bound to end in a brawl occasionally, particularly when all the amusements took place on the one day, as they did on May 2 1831 when John and Edgar Clements, sons of the contractor for the new bridge, became involved with Roger Scully, jnr., and two of his followers, Michael Stack and Patrick Wallace, in the Oyster Cellar,which was also known as Tattersalls. Into the brawl on the side of the Clements brothers came "common men", so described by Martin Power's wife, who got herself a "lick" on the occasion.

One of the witnesses, Thomas Morony, an intimate of Roger Scully, denied that he had taken twenty-six tumblers of punch at his dinner that evening. He was unable to say how many he had taken because he had not counted them, but stated that he would be "obnubliated" after ten tumblers. He distinguished various stages of inebriation, as he had experienced them: Being impudent, extremely impudent, excited, wildly excited, and basely drunk.


Photo from Liam M. http://www.flickr.com/photos/tir_na_nog/

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Photo courtesy thekatespanos http://www.flickr.com/photos/thekatespanos/
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Attached:

1. Sarsfield Bridge C.1940
2.Wellesley Bridge C.1850

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2nd May 2008
CologneMike wrote:Wow factor: developer seeks approval for iconic building

Limerick Leader By Anne Sheridan

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MULTI-MILLION euro plans to demolish the Boat Club on Sarsfield Bridge for the construction of an "iconic development" were due to be submitted to the planning department at City Hall this Friday. But developer Michael Daly has said he will simply "walk away from the plans" if the public are unhappy with the designs, which the Limerick Leader can now exclusively reveal.

"I really hope people will look at these plans and say 'That's fantastic.' That's the reaction I want to get. If they don't want it, we'll forget about it. It's now a question of whether the city wants this building or not," said Mr Daly, Fordmount Properties, whose office on the 11th floor of Riverpoint overlooks the Boat Club.

However, he said he is fully aware that this proposed development will be "the subject of debate" in the coming months and said they "don't expect a free run at this," as the site has been the home of the Boat Club since 1870.

Councillors will also have to vote to remove the Boat Club from the list of protected structures and re-zone the site from recreational use to mixed use development.
"If this was the Marriott I would have been prepared to have a battle, but this isn't the same. If seven or eight councillors aren't in favour we're not going to go with this. If the city says 'we're not having it', that's it," he said.

Limerick Boat Club are supporting the proposed development, which has been designed up by Belfast based McCann Moore architects, who were also involved in the design of Riverpoint. Architect Sean McCann said their design takes its inspiration from "ship hulls, lightweight fabric sails, rowing oars and robust sea walls."

Mr McCann, also a keen rower with Queens University Belfast Boat Club and Belfast Boat Club, said their brief was to "create a building that would become a recognisable landmark in the city and also a significant addition to the public fabric of the area."

If granted planning permission by Limerick City Council, the new three and a half storey development will house the club in one of the lower levels - which will be underneath the level of the bridge.

The portion of the building closest to Shannon Boat Club, on the opposite side of Sarsfield Bridge, has been kept to two storeys above bridge level. "We were keen to make a very strong architectural statement with the new building but we were equally keen to avoid overpowering the neighbouring buildings," said Mr McCann.

Mr Daly added that he believes this development should "regenerate Limerick Boat Club" and believes it is a "joint venture", rather than a commercially driven project.

He said his "dream is to have a restaurant on the top floor and have people say that when they come to Limerick they must go the restaurant on the top floor." A coffee shop could also be located towards the front of the building, where people could overlook the River Shannon, but Mr Daly said he does not "want to dictate the use as it may fly in the face of the planning process."

He said he is also aiming the develop the building as a civic space, citing "it would be terrific to have some of the local agencies operating out of here." A footbridge is proposed to link the proposed building with Poor Man's Kilkee, which would connect the area with the pedestrianised area of Bedford Row.

However, the proposal is likely to face opposition from a number of councillors. Independent Cllr Kathleen Leddin said she believes the current Boat Club - which is a protected structure - should be upgraded, rather than demolished
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Re: Limerick Boat Club ~ Wellesley Pier ~ Poor Man’s Kilkee ~ Sarsfield Bridge

Postby CologneMike » Mon Mar 02, 2009 6:49 pm

2nd May 2008
CologneMike wrote:
08163 Fordmount Developments Ltd

Permission for development of mixed-use scheme (leisure/recreation, office, civic, craft/restaurant uses), including the replacement of the existing Boat Club facilities, on a site of 0.2 ha approx. on lands at Limerick Boat Club (a protected Structure RPS No.300), Wellesley Pier (including works to Poor Mans, Kilkee, Harveys Quay). This seeks the demolition of 2 no. existing structures (comprising the club house 165 sq m and the boat store, 187sq m) collectively known as Limerick Boat Club (the protected structure). The development will consist of 4,215 sq m gross floor-space, over 4 no. levels (from River Level to Second Floor Level) at its highest, and will comprise: a boat club and store (591 sq m); a cafe, including ancillary kitchen and seating areas (330 sq m) a restaurant (497 sq m); civic space (429 sq m); office floorspace (1913 sq m); staff area (20 sq m); and ancillary space (435 sq m). The development will also consist of: the provision of a new pedestrian access, via lift, stair and bridge access, from Poor Mans, Kilkee to Wellesley Pier at Bridge Level, and the relocation of existing pedestrian access to be provided from Sarsfield Bridge (a protected structure) to the proposed development ; hard and soft landscaping works; boundary treatments; plant; services provision; diversion of services; changes in level; boat slips; and all other associated site development and excavation works above and below ground.

Limerick Boat Club, Wellesley Pier, Limerick


3rd May 2008

CologneMike wrote:Limerick Boat Club

"We were keen to make a very strong architectural statement with the new building but we were equally keen to avoid overpowering the neighbouring buildings," said Mr McCann.


That’s a big challenge to pull off.

The elegant “cut-stone” Sarsfield’s Bridge remains for me the central, dominant building and its add-ons i.e. Limerick Boat Club, Shannon Boat Club, War of Independence Memorial are only of secondary importance. Not to mention those superficial cosmetic hanging baskets and the draping necklace of white lights which in my opinion are both only used to dress up a poorly designed building. This bridge is most certainly not.

The two buildings of the Limerick Boat Club are both well past their shelf life date. New modern club facilities such as gym, indoor rowing basin, social-function room would give the club a major boost to enrol new rowing members. The Shannon River remains an under utilised natural resource in Limerick city.

"I really hope people will look at these plans and say 'That's fantastic.' That's the reaction I want to get. If they don't want it, we'll forget about it. It's now a question of whether the city wants this building or not," said Mr Daly, Fordmount Properties.

Architect Sean McCann said their design takes its inspiration from "ship hulls, lightweight fabric sails, rowing oars and robust sea walls."



Fair enough Michael, Sean but maybe you could upload larger images onto your web sites so that we can get a better, more detailed impression of your proposal.

Fordmount Properties / McCann Moore Architects


3rd May 2008
vkid wrote:From the inital images, i have to say I klind of like it but that my own opinion. I do like the old boat club but it does look like a shed and sometimes I feel the site is a bit wasted. Depending on the details my opinion could change though. Its a delicate site but this looks like it could work ..(if cheap green cladding or some such nonsense doesnt appear..)


3rd May 2008
justnotbothered wrote:What's the point in building on the river if one side (the poor man's kilkee side) seems to have no windows? Another steamboat quay, only in glass, imo.


5th May 2008
Tuborg wrote:To be fair, the plans for the boat club site are not all that bad. They are bold, ambitious and certainly a break from the norm. I can see both sides of the argument, the developers want to create something modern and striking while others want to see the past preserved. The problem I have with the proposal is its location. As CologneMike said earlier, the main factor that should be taken into account here is Sarsfield bridge. We should be more concerned about any potential negative impact on the bridge rather than getting caught up in all this nonsense about creating "iconic structures." I would foe example have serious concerns about the intention to relocate the current pedestrian access point. Does this mean the removal of the steps from the bridge to the pier and would it require any alterations to the bridge itself?

You would also have to have concerns regarding its impact on the riverscape and for example, would it obscure views of the rowing club on the opposite side of the bridge and St Marys Cathedral? Looking at the plans, the glazed cylindrical portion is much more attractive than the elevation that directly faces the bridge. In my opinion it looks chunky and overbearing.

Having said all that, I would quite like to see this built somewhere in Limerick, although I believe it would potentially be more suited to the redeveloped docklands or possibly the ESB site on a larger scale.

Below: Wellesley pier and Limerick Boat club with rowing club in the background. (Derhur)

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6th May 2008
Dreamstate wrote:IT SEEMS THAT MR.DALY REALLY HAS THE PLANNERS & POLITICIANS EARS. THE MARRIOTT HOTEL ON HENRY STREET IS CLEARLY A FULL STOREY HIGHER THAN SURROUNDING DEVELOPMENTS AND IS THE ONLY CITY CENTRE DEVELOPMENT OF THAT SCALE IN THE LAST FEW YEARS THAT WAS GRANTED PERMISSION WITHOUT HAVING ANY CAR PARKING ON SITE!
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Re: Limerick Boat Club ~ Wellesley Pier ~ Poor Man’s Kilkee ~ Sarsfield Bridge

Postby CologneMike » Mon Mar 02, 2009 7:47 pm

6th May 2008
Dan Sullivan wrote:Tuborg, your photo illustrates quite well at least one major drawback in that it will hide the Castle complete from the quayside south and east of the bridge. I do have to ask if the boatclub has been unsuccessful in last few years/decades in attracting members then why should we disadvantage other clubs by allowing this club to make such a financial killing by setting aside the protected status of this building?


7th May 2008
CologneMike wrote:
Originally Posted by Dreamstate
IT SEEMS THAT MR.DALY REALLY HAS THE PLANNERS & POLITICIANS EARS.


In fairness though Dreamstate, Fordmount Developments have “raised the bar” in the quality of building in Limerick city with their Marriott, Riverpoint and Castletroy projects. Not surprisingly Mr. Daly has earned “respect” through out the city for delivering them (myself included). This can be even seen by Cllr Kathleen Leddin’s “diplomatic rejection” of the Boat Club proposal by not blasting the developer outright but by saying she believes the current Boat Club should be upgraded, rather than demolished.

This “Iconic” boat house proposal seems to me to be more of a product from those so called brain-storming sessions from last year? I have the impression that this proposal has already its blessings from that “think-tank” club like Shannon Development, UL, Civic Trust, City Council etc, etc?

Originally Posted by Dreamstate
THE MARRIOTT HOTEL ON HENRY STREET IS CLEARLY A FULL STOREY HIGHER THAN SURROUNDING DEVELOPMENTS


Agree, the city planning department should declare openly its guidelines (if any) for a coherent skyline. Though I personally think the building height is o.k. for the lower part of Henry Street, I have yet to see the finished product on the Bedford Row.

Originally Posted by Dreamstate
AND IS THE ONLY CITY CENTRE DEVELOPMENT OF THAT SCALE IN THE LAST FEW YEARS THAT WAS GRANTED PERMISSION WITHOUT HAVING ANY CAR PARKING ON SITE!


The Marriott is in good company with the Clarion and George Hotels for also relying on nearby multi-storey car parks? Will the underground parking come with phase-II if the ”Stella Ballroom” were ever to be redeveloped and integrated with the Marriott / Shopping Boutiques? (Pure speculation on my part)

What do you think of the Boat Club proposal yourself?

It would be great to read in the local media, views of Architects Murray O’Laoire, Newenham Mulligan, EML, Healy & Partners or the Civic Trust, etc, etc about the merits of this proposal?


Originally Posted by Dan Sullivan
I do have to ask if the boatclub has been unsuccessful in last few years/decades in attracting members then why should we disadvantage other clubs by allowing this club to make such a financial killing by setting aside the protected status of this building?


Dan, you could argue the same against the new “UL Boat House” too (Taxpayers / Foundation money) as been detrimental to the likes of St. Michaels, as they are both rival competitors. There is nothing stopping St Michaels rowing club of doing a similar joint-venture scheme to upgrade their sport facilities on O’Callaghan’s Strand.

Similar plans (restaurant etc.) were once proposed for the Curragour boat house by Murray O’Laoire some years back. Their ideal location would allow them to place boats onto the Shannon and Abbey. Which would make them independent them from the tide.

Shannon Rowing Club has also access to both rivers (either side of weir) and to be sure they will be every bit as motivated not to let their rival neighbours steal the whole show on the bridge.

Any bit of life left in the Athlunkard Rowing Club?

Originally Posted by Tuborg
I would for example have serious concerns about the intention to relocate the current pedestrian access point. Does this mean the removal of the steps from the bridge to the pier and would it require any alterations to the bridge itself?


Might not be a bad thing Tuborg, as loading boats onto the trailers parked on the bridge impedes the flow of traffic. On the other hand it would be practical for fire and safety reasons to have two accesses i.e. Sarsfield Bridge and Poor Mans Kilkee. The original cut-stone spiral-steps are still in existence (not in use) along side the metal stairway. See image below.

Attachment: Entrance Limerick Boat Club

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8th May 2008
justnotbothered wrote:In relation to the 6 rowing clubs in Limerick Urban Area, 4 are in the city centre, one is located in UL and one in Castleconell.

Only two city centre clubs are actively as rowing clubs, in reality.

St. Michaels, used to be the poorer cousin of Shannon and Limerick Boat Club, has become one of the best rowing clubs in Ireland in recent years, two-time World Champion Sculler, and Olympian, Sam Lynch rowed out of there. Won the Big Pot last year with 2 members of Shannon in the 8.

Athlunkard, has been rejuvenated after the clubhouse was burned down in the 1990's, and is steadily re-appearing on the scene, had a top class Junior rower recently, think he is moving on to the senior ranks now. Got Irish honours when he was 16 iirc.

Shannon, more of a social club, hasn't had a serious crew since the pair in the 1990's. The pair have since reformed and are rowing in a Shannon/St. Michaels composite. No sign of any new rowers coming through their ranks, but they still have a pretty prestigious name.

Limerick Boat Club. Well, pretty much have fallen apart and will probably be impossible to revive even if this development goes ahead, for the simple reason that demographic shifts mean there is no longer the numbers to support another city centre club. Limerick haven't had a serious crew since the 1980's (afaik) and were so badly run back then that they let themselves fall apart. Would take a lot more than a shiny glass building to save it, which is a pity because it used to be a decent club.

UL, not really rated on the national scene, but are serious about becoming a major player. Have made huge investments in clubhouse etc.

Castleconnell, not too sure, were active in the 1990's but seem to have drifted a bit since.

In short, of all the clubs in Limerick, Limerick Boat Club are in the weakest position. Will take a huge effort to get the club revived. Maybe it can be done, but frankly, I'd rather have a nice city centre and riverfront than support a dwindling club that let itself be run into the ground. If St. Michaels can prosper while LBC collapses, surely it shows that LBC is simply a poorly run club who's time has run-out. The city should not maintain it just to keep a few former rowers happy. Would love to see Limerick Boat Club provide a list of how many active members it has, and how long it's been since each of them were either involved in rowing or running the club.

Imo, the way for Limerick to revive itself is not to worry about shiny new buildings but to get involved in bringing new rowers into the club. It let it's main slip way degenerate to the point where it is seriously unsafe now, it has no under-age crews (and hasn't had an underage crew in over 5 years (afaik)), it has no senior crews, so exactly how many rowers are left in the club? I know I'm labouring the point, but think it's bizarre to give such a poorly run club another chance to run itself into the ground.
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Re: Limerick Boat Club ~ Wellesley Pier ~ Poor Man’s Kilkee ~ Sarsfield Bridge

Postby CologneMike » Mon Mar 02, 2009 7:55 pm

8th May 2008
scitilop wrote:CologneMike - the taxpayers/UL Foundation didn't pay for the UL Boathouse - it is currently being paid each year by the students as part of capitation.


8th May 2008
Dreamstate wrote:I wouldnt necessarily say that Mr.Daly has 'raised the bar' architecturally with either Riverpoint or The Marriott !

Also , Have you checked out the website of the Boat Club Schemes architects ?
Looks like they did a nice house extension once . . .


8th May 2008
Dan Sullivan wrote:
Originally Posted by scitilop
CologneMike - the taxpayers/UL Foundation didn't pay for the UL Boathouse - it is currently being paid each year by the students as part of capitation.

ULSU borrowed the money up front to spend on the boathouse and are going to buying that back from funds raised from the students via capitation. I've nothing personal against Limerick Boat club, but one does have to wonder what is served by building this in order to preserve a club on that site that couldn't make a go of it on that site. What certainty is there that that club might not be wound up at some point after the building is finished and some other use made of the structure? None.


8th May 2008
CologneMike wrote:
Originally Posted by Dreamstate
I wouldnt necessarily say that Mr.Daly has 'raised the bar' architecturally with either Riverpoint or The Marriott !

Jaysus Dreamstate, if you compare the quality of let say the Sarsfield Bridge Hotel in the image below with that of the Marriott Hotel.

It shows a distinct improvement in the quality of building in the city?

Also , Have you checked out the website of the Boat Club Schemes architects ?
Looks like they did a nice house extension once . . .


I did, had similar thoughts about their portfolio too . . . no track record . . . . should we be concerned here?

Image
Image


8th May 2008
CologneMike wrote:
Originally Posted by scitilop
CologneMike - the taxpayers/UL Foundation didn't pay for the UL Boathouse - it is currently being paid each year by the students as part of capitation.

Capitation :confused: Ah! . . . tax, fee, charge or grant of an equal sum per person.

Thats 10.000+ students, at how much a head?

Sounds like serious competition for the “poor” city rowing clubs.

Hmmm . . . I wonder would the UL Students Union ever consider investing in a LOI football team or greyhound racing. ;)


9th May 2008
KeepAnEyeOnBob wrote:Actually I think the old restored warehouse is nicely shown up against the Marriot etc. It's even more of an interesting feature now with it being entirely freestanding and surrounded by the modern buildings.

The boathouse replacement looks monstrous. It would really block the view up the river and detract from the bridge. Surely any replacement should be discreet and at most two storeys in order to be no more obtrusive than the current building. The bridge is the more important feature.


10th May 2008
Tuborg wrote:This article appeared in one of the mid week editions of the Limerick Leader, it sure didn’t take long for the knives to come out for this one! Looks like they’ve been checking us out here on archiseek aswell!:D

Well Dan, are you going to seek a meeting with some of these councilors you refer to?
An Taisce to object to €20m development of Limerick Boatclub

Anne Sheridan

The heritage body An Taisce have said they intend to lodge an objection against the proposed €20m development on Sarsfield bridge which would see the Boatclub demolished in favour of a new modern building which would facilitate the rowing club.

Local An Taisce spokesperson Dan Sullivan said they will also be urging people to lobby their city councilors to ensure the Boatclub, which is a protected structure is not de-listed and they do not change the zoning of the site from open space to mixed use development.

“I would challenge each councilor in turn that might seek to renege on their previous position to explain what exactly has changed. It is sad that what was proving to be a thriving alternative music venue was shut down so the Boatclub building could be allowed lie vacant in order to justify this application,” said Mr. O’Sullivan.

He said he agrees that “the boat sheds aren’t exactly architecturally inspiring” but believes that the building should be retained.

The public have also been voicing their views on the proposed development on architectural websites and the local Limerick Blogger site since the Limerick leader exclusively revealed the full plans proposed by Fordmount developments last week.

Some bloggers described the plans as “a bloody disgrace” while others said they were “bold, ambitious and certainly a break from the norm.” one blogger on the architectural website, archiseek.com said “ I can see both sides of the argument – the developers want to create something modern and striking, while others want to see the past preserved.” Others said while they liked the designs drawn up by the Belfast based architects McCann Moore, they believed they may not be suitable for that location and instead should be located in another area of the city, such as the docklands.

Concerns regarding traffic flow during construction, if the development is given the go-ahead by the city planners on June 26th, was also expressed as a concern by a number of people.

Developer Michael Daly of Fordmount Developments has said he will simply “walk away from the plans” if the public are unhappy with the designs. “I really hope people will look at these plans and say “that’s fantastic.”

“That’s the reaction I want to get. If they don’t want it, we’ll forget about it. Its now a question of whether the city wants this building or not,” said Mr Daly.

To date, labour Councillor Joe Leddin, Fine Gael Cllrs Jim Long and Kevin Kiely have given the development the thumbs up.

Limerick Boatclub, who would be re-housed in the new four-storey development believe it is a “ win-win situation” for the rowing club. Independent Cllr Kathleen Leddin said she believes the current boatclub – which is a protected structure – should be upgraded rather than demolished.



29th May 2008
justnotbothered wrote:Btw, am about to submit my first ever planning objection, in relation to Limerick Boat Club, wish me luck!


6th June 2008
Tuborg wrote:Two items that came up for discussion at last weeks City Council meeeting. It looks like the proposal to redevelop the Limerick boat club site could be dead in the water! Sorry!:rolleyes: For the development to go ahead, the boat club would have to be removed from the list of protected structures and the site re-zoned, which would require the support of a majority of City Councillors
City councillors snub boat club proposals

City councillors have voiced strong objections to a proposed development on the site of Limerick Boat Club, insisting that the “modernistic and futuristic” design will take away from Sarsfield Bridge and its surroundings.

At this month’s city council meeting on Monday, Councillor Kathleen Leddin led a chorus of criticism of the joint application from the boat club and Fordmount Developments. “

This is the kind of development that will have to be looked at in a careful light. I think it will take away from the bridge, the monument on it and Shannon Boat Club on the other side. It’s a modernistic and futuristic building set in a very traditional area of Limerick. It’ll ruin the bridge, which has been there for years, with a big glass box,” she said of the proposed mixed-use development.

The plans aim to demolish the boat club—currently a listed building that has been located there since 1870—and create a four level, 4,215 square foot structure on Wellesley Pier.

It will incorporate offices, “civic space” and a restaurant and will also provide new pedestrian access at bridge level.

The boat club will be accommodated in the multi-million euro development, which was designed by Belfast based, McCann Moore Architects.

Cllr John Gilligan said that he was “appalled” at the proposals, which offer a “cheap answer” by using steel and glass for the ultra-modern design. “This will interfere with one of the most beautiful bridges in Ireland and also with the other boat club, which is very complementary. It’s appalling no matter what way you look at it. I would ask the council to protect the heritage of the city.”

Cllr Michael Hourigan asked “what will it look like in 25 or 50 years time?” while Cllr Maria Byrne referred to the design as “a monstrosity”.

Senior Executive Planner, Dick Tobin, warned councillors that plywood models often do not give a good overall impression. “In this case, we will probably be asking for visualisations of the plans in situ, particularly in the context of the surroundings and nearby buildings,” he said, adding that computer generated imagery would create a more accurate impression of the design.

For the project to go ahead, elected members will have to vote to remove the boat club from the list of protected structures and re-zone the site from to mixed use development instead of recreational use. A decision on the application is not expected until a later date in the summer.

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Re: Limerick Boat Club ~ Wellesley Pier ~ Poor Man’s Kilkee ~ Sarsfield Bridge

Postby CologneMike » Mon Mar 02, 2009 7:59 pm

7th June 2008
justnotbothered wrote:
Originally Posted by Tuborg
Two items that came up for discussion at last weeks City Council meeeting. It looks like the proposal to redevelop the Limerick boat club site could be dead in the water! Sorry! For the development to go ahead, the boat club would have to be removed from the list of protected structures and the site re-zoned, which would require the support of a majority of City Councillors

Which, ultimately, would be good news for the city. Have never seen such a ill-fitting design.


7th June 2008
Dreamstate wrote:
Originally Posted by justnotbothered
Which, ultimately, would be good news for the city. Have never seen such a ill-fitting design.


Councillors .mmmmmh . . . . I'm sure that they'll do the right thing architecturally . .


7th June 2008
justnotbothered wrote:
Originally Posted by Dreamstate
Councillors .mmmmmh . . . . I'm sure that they'll do the right thing architecturally . .

Well doing nothing with that site is better than what's being proposed. The proposed Boatclub design is hideous, absolutely hideous. If that's the best that architects can currently envisage, i suggest we shoot one on every 10 of them until they get the notion of not building cheap rubbish everywhere.


8th June 2008
CologneMike wrote:
Boatclub (Limerick Leader) Published Date: 06 June 2008

By Anne Sheridan

THE DEVELOPER behind the plans to demolish and redevelop Limerick Boat Club said he is still hopeful that his €20million "dream" development could receive planning permission, even though nine councillors have voiced their opposition.

To receive the green-light, a majority of the 17 city councillors have to vote in favour of a material contravention to rezone the site and also remove the Boat Club from the list of protected structures.

But the president of Limerick Boat Club, Dermot Moloney, is asking councillors and the public to look at the bigger picture and said the proposal put forward by Michael Daly of Fordmount Developments represents a "once in a lifetime" opportunity for their club.

"I genuinely would be worried for the club if this doesn't go ahead. This was the first rowing club in Limerick, and even from that perspective it would be a shame to see it go. It could be the end of the club as we know it," said Mr Moloney.

Mr Daly had previously said he would walk away from the plans if the majority of councillors were against the designs, but he now believes that councillors may not be as outrightly opposed as they have stated in public.

When the Limerick Leader exclusively revealed the plans for the site off Sarsfield Bridge, Mr Daly said: "I really hope people will look at these plans and say 'That's fantastic.' That's the reaction I want to get. If they don't want it, we'll forget about it. It's now a question of whether the city wants this building or not."

Councillors across the political spectrum are divided about the plans, with Labour Cllr Gerry McLoughlin stating the proposed development could establish a "state-of-the-art boat club," as well as "a fabulous commercial enterprise" and "bring Limerick into the 21st century."

Among those opposing the plans is Independent Cllr John Gilligan described the development as "crass", "commercial", "an appalling structure" and said it is "a cheap answer to interfere with one of the most beautiful bridges in Ireland."
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Re: Limerick Boat Club ~ Wellesley Pier ~ Poor Man’s Kilkee ~ Sarsfield Bridge

Postby CologneMike » Mon Mar 02, 2009 8:05 pm

8th June 2008
CologneMike wrote:
Originally Posted by Tuborg
Two items that came up for discussion at last weeks City Council meeeting. It looks like the proposal to redevelop the Limerick boat club site could be dead in the water! Sorry! For the development to go ahead, the boat club would have to be removed from the list of protected structures and the site re-zoned, which would require the support of a majority of City Councillors

City councillors snub boat club proposals

Senior Executive Planner, Dick Tobin, warned councillors that plywood models often do not give a good overall impression. “In this case, we will probably be asking for visualisations of the plans in situ, particularly in the context of the surroundings and nearby buildings,” he said, adding that computer generated imagery would create a more accurate impression of the design.



Well Michael Daly can only blame himself for been snubbed for not disclosing enough material to them. Did the councillors have to rely on the Limerick Leader for the visualisations?

Among those opposing the plans is Independent Cllr John Gilligan described the development as "crass", "commercial", "an appalling structure" and said it is "a cheap answer to interfere with one of the most beautiful bridges in Ireland."



Good to see that Cllr John Gilligan has the heritage of Sarsfield’s bridge at heart. Irrespective of the merits /weaknesses of this proposal, for an elected public representative who was last year deputy mayor, he lacks in leadership for not encouraging the developer to come up with better plans for the boat club. Instead he is more or less telling the developer to p**s-off with his €20 million.

Below images with three possible scenarios

  • Leave it as it is. Small, defunct rowing club with limited public access.
  • Restore the pier to its original state i.e. remove the two buildings. Public green space.
  • Approve proposed new boat club development.


If it is well designed it could complement the bridge, if not then it would ruin it!

Here the original image by likeubutbetter

Image
Image
Image


8th June 2008
johnglas wrote:There is another option: come up with a better-designed proposal that is not just maximising commercial floorspace and actually complements rather than swamps the bridge and the existing Edwardian boathouse/club. Turning this site into a suburban lawn is hardly an option at all.


8th June 2008
CologneMike wrote:
Originally Posted by johnglas
There is another option: come up with a better-designed proposal that is not just maximising commercial floorspace and actually complements rather than swamps the bridge and the existing Edwardian boathouse/club. Turning this site into a suburban lawn is hardly an option at all.

What was with the “I don't think we should communicate at all.” “The end.”

There you are sitting on a fence and passing off your standard two liner on every post that goes by!

Why don’t you propose a few examples as alternatives yourself from let say Glasgow, Edinburgh etc, etc.

If possible throw in a few images.

As for "There is another option:" well I wrote that Cllr John Gilligan should do that above.

As for the “suburban lawn”, well as you know yourself how family friendly our apartment developments in the centre of Limerick are. It might be the only blade of grass they would see all week! :rolleyes:


9th June 2008
shanekeane wrote:can anybody who has two eyes in their head please look at that picture above and tell me what in god's name do these fat, uneducated, parochial hicks in the city council think it is they're protecting?


9th June 2008
justnotbothered wrote:
Originally Posted by shanekeane
can anybody who has two eyes in their head please look at that picture above and tell me what in god's name do these fat, uneducated, parochial hicks in the city council think it is they're protecting?

The Bridge and the Shannon Rowing club, and also, the concern isn't about what's being knocked (although it's a listed building) but rather what's being proposed, which I guess with the two eyes in your head (presumably) you can see is a cheap, rubbish design.

Even the artist's renditions can make it look no better than low-rate.

Mike, in response to your earlier question about what the councillors saw, I saw some of the designs the councillors were shown. They were awful, it was impossible to escape the lack of windows and the blandness of the majority of the design. Limerick (or any other city) doesn't need more windowless blocks being built on our rivers. The same mistake was made in Cork with Merchant's Quay, and (again) in Limerick with the old Dunnes Stores. I'm not vehemently opposed to this plan for the fun of it. It's a terrible design which would make a waste of the millions being invested on improving the Strands.

Even pro-development Councillor's like Scully are unimpressed with this plan, and he was the one who proposed it was no bad thing to tear down some Georgian streets to facilitate the Opera Centre.

Mind you, I don't see what's wrong with having parks in cities, like the proposal of Mike above (not that that could happen) The park on the pier in the Claddagh in Galway (just opposite the Spanish Arch and beside the Lock gates) is a fantastic amenity for the city to enjoy.

Ultimately, does this development add more to the city than it takes away, imo, no.


9th June 2008
Dan Sullivan wrote:I suspect there will be considerable back and forth on the boat club over the coming months as various design elements are revised and reviewed. Not all of those cllrs opposed to the delisting are opposed to delisting complete, rather it is somewhat dependent (as it should be) on what is proposed to replace it. The funny thing is that the frontage structure that would be placed where the listed structure currently sits is considerable better than the rest of the proposal that backs onto the bridge. That is where the main problem lies and with the issues of retention of some element of public access.


9th June 2008
KeepAnEyeOnBob wrote:The existing building could just be fixed up and an alternate use found if the boat club goes under.

I see no need to bung an ugly monstrousity into the middle of the bridge, or indeed put any other building. The existing boathouse etc. is interruption enough to the line of the bridge and view down the river.

There's no shortage of sensible locations for developments in the city centre.


9th June 2008
vkid wrote:Probably going to get slated here but its my opinion.

While protected, those structures just look like old sheds to me. NOthing particularly beautiful about either structure on that side of the bridge. The Boat house itself is a nice building externally but the two red brick structures are pretty poor imo. As far as I can see neither really interact with the river/bridge or city in any way. They are hidden when driving across the bridge, they look like crap from the city side and you would barely notice them from the Shannon bridge. Internally there is also very little to retain or restore.

I also can't see any worthwhile uses for them as they stand that would really bring any real benefit to the city. One was used as a music venue for some time and while it served a purpose for a small few, it was not the right place for a music venue of that nature. Internally you would never, ever think you were in a protected structure. It was like a dingy GAA club. If there are any original features in there they are well hidden.

Overall I really dont think they add anything amazing to the city or river in their current form. While I would like to see some devlopment on the site I think it needs to be sympathetic to the boat house itself, i'm not too worried about the two red brick structures...If the right building was proposed for the site, and I think someone with vision could propose something a bit better than what is currently on the table, I would have no objection to these being demolished OR in fact, moving them and reconstructing them somewhere they may be of more value to the city. Buildings this size have been moved and reconstructed many times,,,,why not this?

I'm all for preservation/conservation but not for the sake of it and I think this is a building that really doesnt merit so much attention. There is much more interesting buildings in the city that deserve more attention than this is getting..

Just my opinion though


9th June 2008
justnotbothered wrote:But what do think of what's proposed?

Of course, if the boatclub moved, the actual boat shed itself would make a pretty nifty venue imo. It'd be great for intimate gigs. The smaller club house could remain as a bar or coffee house or anything. Plenty of places for outdoor seating for example.

To me, the talk of the boatclub going to wall is premature to say the least.

I would love to have seen the Boatclub re-engage with the city in a meaningful way, how, by moving to the soon to be regenerated Island field. I know it's a little off the wall, but it makes sense. They have no members or facilities, the regeneration could provide then with facilities on the river as part of it's remit. The number of apartments and houses proposed should utterly alter this area into something akin to Smithfield, namely, a healthy mix of middle class, students and council housing.

The Boatclub could be central to new sporting facilities built for the Island field. Imagine a Grove Island type development, only based around a rowing club, not a rugby club. I think with proper management, the locals would gain an established club, the club would gain a new area to attract members, the Government could pick up the tab for the development. All the reports I've read on the regeneration stress providing sporting facilities in these areas.

I'm not pretending it's the ideal solution, but it's better than what's currently being proposed.
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Re: Limerick Boat Club ~ Wellesley Pier ~ Poor Man’s Kilkee ~ Sarsfield Bridge

Postby CologneMike » Mon Mar 02, 2009 8:09 pm

9th June 2008
Tuborg wrote:I said it a few weeks back and I remain of the opinion that the proposal definitely has some merits. I actually like the glazed feature but the architects apppear to have given up on the rest of the structure with the all too predictable half arsed approach. Incidentally I came across a previously unseen CGI a few weeks back in the city leader showing the impact of the proposed structure from O Callaghan Strand. It looked absolutely hideous, much cruder than the other elevations we've been shown. I've searched for the image but its not available on the leader website or anywhere else for that matter!

At the moment 9 of the 17 councillors are reportedly against the proposed development. Just out of curiosity, if a clear cut decsion wasnt reached, who would ultimately have the final say? the city manager?

ImageImage


10th June 2008
justnotbothered wrote:Saw that image too, I don't think there's really much doubt that the proposal is a flawed one (and I'm being charitable).

Afaik, majority rules on the council, but the city manager (who has been quite coy all through this) will probably try and streamroll it through.

He was the guy who felt building on Cleeves Bank/Westfields was a top notch idea too, luckily, the councillors pulled him on it before he could sell it. I'm sure he's waiting for another chance to work some "development" there too.

We need a manager who realises the city is more than just facing the river. All well and good focusing on the river, but areas like Parnell st and Roches st. are straight out of a neon Angela's ashes. He should focus a little more on the entire city.


10th June 2008
KeepAnEyeOnBob wrote:Vkid, I'm not of the opinion that those buildings should be preserved at all costs, but they do have the advantage of being inconspicuous. As you say, you don't even see them driving across. The bridge is the important feature, and I think most things developers would like to put there would detract from it.


10th June 2008
johnglas wrote:Cologne Mike: Here we go again... I'd forgotten that message - clearly you haven't. My comment was just that, a comment, not directed at you. There is nothing worse than suggesting something out of context from somewhere else; there is simply no equivalent site in Glasgow.
Try to avoid turning everything into a personal attack.


10th June 2008
D-A-V-E wrote:what i think is hilarious is the fact that in the daytime pic its cloudy (to fit in with the white metal) and at night theres no cloud as it blends in better!!


10th June 2008
massamann wrote:I think that there is an additional step needed when discussing what we should do with the boathouse. I think that we need to decide on exactly what we want built here, before we begin commenting on any designs. This is such a prominent site in the city, that I think that we need to be happy with the buildings future use, and not just what it looks like.

I'm not very happy about the idea of a scheme dominated by exclusive, private apartments. Sure, there may be a trade-off with a new boathouse being included, but again, I'm not happy that a boat club will attract the volume of membership to justify such a prominent position.

If done right, it could be the one place in the city where you really feel the impact of the river. Sitting there, you have the water to the left and right of you. But now for the unfortunate bit: the only way to maximise footfall in this area and to make it available and accessible to as many people as possible is by minimising the "for profit" developer-led component. And if we do that, I don't believe that there will be enough of a financial imperative to build anything.

For all our talk of the Celtic tiger, have we one public building in Limerick that has gone up over the last ten years? The concert hall is part of UL, the county council offices are just that - offices. Would it be too much to hope that this could be the new location for the Library, now that the Granary is being taken into the Opera development? Along with a really decent coffeeshop/restaurant?

Anyway, here's a couple of shots of PLOT's Maritime Youth Centre in Copenhagen. It's somewhat low-key, it keeps its public space.... Just an idea.

Image

Image


10th June 2008
vkid wrote:
Originally Posted by justnotbothered
But what do think of what's proposed?
It'd be great for intimate gigs. The smaller club house could remain as a bar or coffee house or anything. Plenty of places for outdoor seating for example.


In another location yes..but in its current spot a music venue is not suitable. When it was used as one on several occasions there were drunk kids literally falling onto the busiest bridge in the city..not to tarnish all who went there with that brush but it was a common occurence in my own experience. Unless proper access is sorted its uses are limited. BUT i do agree that a suitable use should be agreed on before a building design is decided on. Its a decent size site overall so something worthwhile is very possible..I personally think a venue/coffee shop would be a complete waste of this site.

AS for what i think of the current proposal, i like some elements (the glass front - albeit too high) and dislike some (side profiles and lack of windows).

Personally I would like to see UL have one of their smaller faculties use this site...maybe with imput from the School of Arhitecture..It would bring the University into the heart of the city(sorely lacking) and really add something to the city..A coffee shop would not have the same effect imo.If the city needs a music venue i'd prefer to see the resoration of the long closed Limerick Athenaeum(Theatre Royal)
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Re: Limerick Boat Club ~ Wellesley Pier ~ Poor Man’s Kilkee ~ Sarsfield Bridge

Postby CologneMike » Mon Mar 02, 2009 8:15 pm

10th June 2008
CologneMike wrote:
Originally Posted by johnglas
Try to avoid turning everything into a personal attack.


True johnglas, my behaviour is akin to a “Spam Blocker”! :D

Originally Posted by massamann
Anyway, here's a couple of shots of PLOT's Maritime Youth Centre in Copenhagen. It's somewhat low-key, it keeps its public space.... Just an idea.


Interesting images massamann. :cool:

That would be a clean break with tradition, a Maritime Youth Centre instead of A Rowing Club! A Maritime theme for the pier would be totally dedicated to use the river as a recreational water resource.

Maybe moor a tall-ship (maritime museum) along the boat club side of the pier and another large barge type of vessel (restaurant) docked opposite it at Harvey’s quay. However getting these two ships lifted over the Condell bridge would be a quite an act.

Massamann, I can see the city kids using it as our second river front skateboard park!

there is simply no equivalent site in Glasgow


By the way the tall ship museum image I used here is from your part of the woods.
Image


10th June 2008
vkid wrote:
Originally Posted by justnotbothered
I would love to have seen the Boatclub re-engage with the city in a meaningful way, how, by moving to the soon to be regenerated Island field. I know it's a little off the wall, but it makes sense.

I agree with that to be honest. I like the buildings but i think they are very nondescript in their current location. Moving them would mean the buildings are saved and a very interesting site could be used to its full potential..
This site needs something very special and keeping these two buildings at this location for the sake of keeping the buildings is a waste imho


10th June 2008
johnglas wrote:No. Your behaviour is akin to a spoiled child who has to have his own way and the last word; I may be spam, you are certainly not caviare. The tall ship (the Glenlee) is berthed alongside and parallel to a quayside wall, so there's no comparison.


10th June 2008
vkid wrote:Ah lads...dont ruin some half decent discussion with this petty stuff
staying on topic would be much more benficial...maybe use pm's for yer little head to head?


10th June 2008
johnglas wrote:Vkid: sense at last; couldn't agree more. I'm an outsider taking an interest, not mounting personal attacks or defending my position to the last ditch. From what I remember of Limerick, it has agreat urban feel, with probably an undeserved reputation for violence, a bit like Glasgow in fact.


12th June 2008
Briain wrote:Vkid, The School of Architecture is moving into Kings Island for 4th and 5th year design studio, the first class will be moving in at the start of September. Actually, the whole school might be out there for a week or two, not sure yet. They're going into St.Munchin's church.

Although your proposal sounds quite interesting also. There were a few different options and locations for the school, none of which was to construct a new building however (afaik)


12th June 2008
CologneMike wrote:A public amenity and commercially run?

The development will consist of 4,215 sq m gross floor-space, over 4 no. levels (from River Level to Second Floor Level) at its highest, and will comprise:

  • Boat club and store (591 sq m);
  • Cafe, including an ancillary kitchen and seating areas (330 sq m)
  • Restaurant (497 sq m);
  • Civic space (429 sq m);
  • Office floor space (1913 sq m);
  • Staff area (20 sq m);
  • Ancillary space (435 sq m).


I wonder what type of tenants has Fordmount Developments in mind for them to realistically see a return on investment, in the form of rent to justify spending €20 million there.

Firstly they will receive no rental income from the Limerick Boat Club.

There was talk of the Tourist Information Office acquiring space there. Especially they will have to move when Arthur’s Quay gets redeveloped as proposed. They would attract footfall in the form of visitors. Being a public service they also operate commercially a craft shop and also act as booking agents for accommodation, ferries etc.

ImageImage

Is the Dolmen art gallery still open? If so they would also have to relocate from Honan’s Quay. Would their commissions be adequate enough to operate there?

A top quality café / bistro on one floor and a top quality restaurant on another floor should do well. Ample glass front views of the river facing the west.

Pity that the School of Architecture, has intentions of basing its “city centre wing” on Kings Island. It would have been interesting to have seen them taking up the office floor space (1913 sq m) here. On the other hand, that would equate to half of the building space. I think UL would prefer investing €10 million towards a new college building than renting one to that value?


12th June 2008
justnotbothered wrote:Rent out space to the city council for a new city library, guaranteed money packet for as long as he wants.
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Re: Limerick Boat Club ~ Wellesley Pier ~ Poor Man’s Kilkee ~ Sarsfield Bridge

Postby CologneMike » Mon Mar 02, 2009 8:19 pm

13th June 2008
massamann wrote:The more I look at the proposal to replace the Boat Club in the river, the worse it looks to me. If ever a site called for an "iconic building" - hmm, I hate that term - let's say an example of considered design, then this is it. Get it right, and it will raise the look of every single other building that looks out at it over the river. Get it wrong, and we'll drag everything down.

Who is the land owned by? To me, it's a no brainer. We need a new site for a library, and we need (in my view) public access to this area. Let it be a public-private partnership on a build-lease basis, or let it be fully public. But this site is important enough to mean that the "economic imperative" should not figure. We don't need to squeeze 20,000 sq ft of office space onto a thin strip of land. Less is more.

And with that it mind, how about something stripped down to the minimum, 2 or 3 stories high, almost transparent. Something not a million miles away from....

Image


13th June 2008
CologneMike wrote:
justnotbothered

Rent out space to the city council for a new city library, guaranteed money packet for as long as he wants.

massamann

We need a new site for a library


Sure the city requires a representative municipal building for its library. We once had one i.e. the purpose built Carnegie Library at the Peoples Park. A library building here on the Shannon in my opinion would be “too introvert in nature” to fully appreciate the river.

One must bear in my mind that Wellesley pier is an island serviced by the Sarsfield Bridge and is positioned between Thomond Bridge and Condell Bridge. It is also situated where pleasure boats can leave the estuary part of the Shannon and enter the Abbey weir / Ardnacrusha waterway to make their way up to the upper parts of the Shannon. It is also situated at the entrance of the city centre. Most importantly of all it lies in the middle of the riverfront / promenade landscape with views in all directions.

Its proposed use should take water sport and local / visitor recreational needs on board.
Image


16th June 2008
Fairy wrote:Not for a moment am I suggesting that this is the best design, but God it's at least innovative! Recall the enomous ructions/damming reactions to the inconceivable design of the Sydney Opera House (similar situ). Looking at the design put forward it sure is inavative - loooking into a much smaller concept imigne taking all the the Bell Table has to offer and (add add some flash) move it into the Boat Club it would be - a winner in IMO, a place to take in a play, lunch, bite of lunc h while talking in the majestic Shannon, We so desperately need a 'centre of the equivalent RIGHT IN THE CENTRE OF LIMERICK CITY. See it all in my dreams, 'lights,steps, etc, ect.. Then


20th June 2008
CologneMike wrote:Proposed Limerick Boat Club Redevelopment (2008) and Cologne Chocolate Museum (1993).

I thought I post this as both have some similar characteristics.

  • Both are positioned on the head of river piers. (Shannon / Rhine)
  • Both piers are intersected by bridges. (Sarsfield / Severin)
  • Both have similar glass front facades at the head of their piers.
  • Both riverfronts are in the process of major redevelopments. (Arthur’s Quay / Rheinauhafen)
  • Both locations have mooring facilities for pleasure boats.

Image

The Chocolate Museum is built around a former custom and excise building on both sides. The large usage of aluminium might give a factory feel to it. In fact the museum contains a working chocolate production line from start to finish. Of course it has gastronomy facilities (Café / Beer Garden) and a shop (Chocolate). It is a commercially run museum and a very popular visitor attraction.

Obviously there also many differences between the two locations especially scale of size. The 1993 exterior design might look somewhat cumbersome and could put some people off in supporting Fordmount’s proposal for the Boat Club. However it is just a practical exercise at comparing this proposal with another one elsewhere.

Any thoughts?

Images from susemueller ralpe mikepirnat
Image
Image
Image
Image


20th June 2008
Tuborg wrote:You would have to say that Chocolate Museum has aged fairly dramatically in 15 years. Theres probably a serious lesson for Limerick in this. I presume that building is maintained quite rigourously seen as its Germany and all that? Contrast this with Ireland where the standards of maintenance and upkeep are questionable to say the least. In this context how would the current proposal for the boat club look in 15 years time? Pretty tired and dated I would say!


2nd July 2008
bonzer1again wrote:Article in Limerick Independent.........Nice to see that the Planning office seem to be on the ball.................time will tell!!!
Boatclub developer to consider ‘changes’
Written by Rachael Finucane
Wednesday, 02 July 2008
The developer behind the proposed controversial building for the site of Limerick Boat Club said this week that he is “actively considering” a raft of suggested changes to the ultramodern design, including a reduction in the scale of the project.

Senior Executive Planner, Dick Tobin, told a city council meeting this week that his department has asked Fordmount Developments “for further information specifically with regard to obtaining a redesign and if possible, reducing the scale”.

“The scale is too large and there are also matters to do with protected structures that we were not aware of that are very relevant and must be looked at. We are asking them to examine these and many other elements of the plans,” he said, adding that there is a “very odd structure” underneath the proposed main building that must be explained and the level of the building may have to be raised “due to the danger of flooding”.

Developer, Michael Daly, said that “in general terms, we are very happy with and open to everything that the planners are suggesting” which are “without exception, very reasonable”.

“We’re going over what the planning department has set out in its request for more information. It has reservations about some items and we’re going to take that on board. We regard it as a very good letter and the planners have spent a lot of time on it,” he added.

“It’s obvious that the planners see the project as being of merit and we will certainly be going back to them with changes to the design,” he said.

City councillors have already voiced strong objections to the design of the proposed four level, 4,215 square foot structure on Wellesley Pier, deriding it as “appalling” and “a monstrosity”.

The new building design includes offices and a restaurant as well as civic space and a new home for Limerick Boat Club—which has been based at the site since 1870—and has emphasised that it can “secure its future with a new and improved rowing facility and the city will get an iconic building on the river”.

For the project to go ahead, elected members will have to vote to remove the current boat club base from the list of protected structures and re-zone the site for mixed use.

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Re: Limerick Boat Club ~ Wellesley Pier ~ Poor Man’s Kilkee ~ Sarsfield Bridge

Postby CologneMike » Mon Mar 02, 2009 8:23 pm

4th November 2008
Tuborg wrote:In an effort to pave the way for the redevelopment of the Limerick Boat Club site, Limerick City Council have officially proposed an amendment to the City Development Plan to remove both the Clubhouse and the Boathouse from the list of Protected Structures.
Limerick City Council
COMHAIRLE CATHRACH LUIMNIGH

Planning and Development Act, 2000

NOTICE OF THE PROPOSED DELETION FROM THE RECORD OF PROTECTED STRUCTURES IN THE LIMERICK CITY DEVELOPMENT PLAN 2004-2010

Notice is hereby given pursuant to section 54 & 55 of the Planning and Development Act 2000 (as amended) that it is proposed to make a deletion to the Record of Protected Structures in the Limerick City Development Plan 2004, in respect of the following:

RPS300 Limerick Boat Club

(Clubhouse and Boathouse)

This addition has not been recommended by the Minister for the Environment, Heritage and Local Government. The National Inventory of Architectural Heritage (NIAH) reference is 21512013.

Particulars of the proposed deletion will be on view to the public from Monday, 3rd November 2008 to Monday 15th December 2008, both dates inclusive between the hours of 10am and 4pm (inclusive of lunch) at the Planning & Economic Development Department, First Floor, Limerick City Council, City Hall, Merchants Quay, Limerick. Details may also be viewed on the City Council's website at http://www.limerickcity.ie

Written submissions or observations in regard to this proposed deletion should be made in writing, to reach the Administrative Officer, Planning and Development Depaartment, City Hall, Merchants Quay, Limerick, before 4pm on Monday, 15th December 2008 and should be marked "Proposed Deletion to the Record of Protected Structures". Any such submissions or observations will be taken into consideration before the deletion.

JOHN FIELD,
Head of Finance / Director of Planning & Economic Development Department,
Limerick City Council.



7th November 2008
Tuborg wrote:
Mayor: I won't be blackmailed over boat club plans for city

Image

By Anne Sheridan

MAYOR of Limerick Cllr John Gilligan said he will not be "blackmailed" into voting in favour of the plans for the €20million redevelopment of Limerick Boatclub, which members say could be forced to close if the plans aren't given the go-ahead by City Hall.

Mayor Gilligan said he will be voting against the motion to remove the building from a list of protected structures later this month, as he is completely opposed to the redesigned plans for the site.

"It's an absolutely horrible, dreadful building and sticks out like a sore thumb. We should never even consider doing anything this. Hard decisions have to be made when you're planning a city and my answer will be 'no'," he told this newspaper.

Limerick Boatclub had previously urged councillors to look at the "big picture", stating that the new plans for the site would greatly attract new members and had looked at all other options for the site.

But Mayor Gilligan said "maybe it's not the site that's the problem. Maybe they should look at new ways of getting their members."

So I think we can safely say that the Mayor is voting against it and its thought that the other 3 independent councillors may follow suit. A majority of the 17 city councillors will have to support the motion in order for the boatclub to be removed from the list of protected structures!


11th November 2008
justnotbothered wrote:
Originally Posted by Tuborg
So I think we can safely say that the Mayor is voting against it and its thought that the other 3 independent councillors may follow suit. A majority of the 17 city councillors will have to support the motion in order for the boatclub to be removed from the list of protected structures!

Afaik, a majority of the council are against this development, thankfully.

The proposed building remains a hideous mess.


12th November 2008
Tuborg wrote:Thats good to hear, I believe the vote will take place towards the end of the month.

Having recently seen the "revised" plans, I simply cannot believe the lack of respect it pays to Sarsfield bridge and the 1916 memorial. The gimmicky white paneling is absolutely abysmal!
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Re: Limerick Boat Club ~ Wellesley Pier ~ Poor Man’s Kilkee ~ Sarsfield Bridge

Postby CologneMike » Mon Mar 02, 2009 8:27 pm

27th December 2008
Dreamstate wrote:Whats the story with the boat club at Sarsfield Bridge? I hear its due for 'DE-LISTING' even though its in the recently published National Inventory of Architectural Heritage booklet

Can anyone shed some light???


8th January 2009
Dreamstate wrote:on a separate but large issue ....I think we should all take account of this quotation from Thomas Fisher ' Tools for Survival'

'Adam Smith described.....the paradox of value as :

‘ The things which have the
greatest value in use have frequently little or no value in exchange; and, on
the contrary, those which have the greatest value in exchange have frequently
little or no value in use. Nothing is more useful than water, but it will purchase
scarce anything; scarce anything can be had in exchange for it. A diamond,
on the contrary, has scarce any value in use, but a very great quantity of other
goods may frequently be had in exchange for it ’

I would ask the Planners in Limerick City Council ...Mr.Tobin , Mr.Reeves , Mrs.Campbell to stop the outward flood of our 'city's water' in seek of 'diamonds'


22nd January 2009
CologneMike wrote:Last-gasp bid on Limerick Boat Club plan (Limerick Leader) 21 January 2009

By Anne Sheridan

THE fate of the €20 million redevelopment of Limerick Boat Club will be decided next Monday.

The president of Limerick Boat Club, Dermot Moloney, is calling on city councillors to support the plans, which he said would be "an asset to the city and a further step in the regeneration of the riverside city."

The plans are before the Council for approval at next Monday's meeting and needs a two-thirds majority from councillors to be passed. If approved, the new building could create up to 200 full-time jobs.

But Michael Daly of Fordmount Developments, the joint applicants of the project, said he was disappointed that the amount of capital the company have invested in the city "didn't seem to cut any ice" with Mayor of Limerick Cllr John Gilligan, whom he met last Thursday.

"Everyone I've spoken to said it's a fantastic project, but I had hoped to get a better hearing from the mayor. I had hoped that what we're spending in the city as a small company, and with the plans we have for the future, that it would have counted for more," said Mr Daly.

Fordmount Developments were behind the construction of Riverpoint – Limerick's tallest building – as well as the City Central development on Bedford Row, the Marriott on Henry Street, and a plan to open a cinema complex on Bedford Row pending agreement with existing tenants.

Mr Daly said he is trying to remain optimistic about the outcome of the meeting, but if it is refused he believes there will be little scope to tweak the design for a third time.

To receive the green light, a two-thirds majority of the 17 city councillors will have to vote in favour of delisting the building and will also have to vote on a material contravention to rezone the site. But councillors have suggested that some political parties may be deciding to vote en bloc.

Asked whether he is in favour of the plans, Fianna Fail Cllr John Cronin said "we haven't decided how we're going to vote yet" and confirmed that the party will be voting together on this issue.

Mayor Gilligan had previously told this newspaper he would not be "blackmailed" into voting in favour of the plans, which members say could be forced to close if the plans are not given the go-ahead. "Hard decisions have to be made when you're planning a city and my answer will be 'no'," said Mayor Gilligan.

Councillors who have voiced their opposition to the development include Independent Cllr Katheen Leddin, and those who have backed the development are Labour Cllr Joe Leddin (a member of Limerick Boat Club), Labour's Gerry McLoughlin and Fine Gael councillors Jim Long and Kevin Kiely.

Mr Moloney has now urged City Hall to look at the employment that will be created during the construction phase of the proposed new club, which would also serve a civic purpose.

The development would take 18 months to build, with over 150 employed during the construction phase and 200 people working there following its construction in offices, a restaurant and cafe/bar.

Mr Moloney said the current building can no longer function adequately for the demand of a modern sporting club, and believes there is no material justification why the building should not be delisted.
Image
Image
Image


24th January 2009
shanekeane wrote:I had a dream last night. What this site requires is a large, slim conical building with a spherical observation deck and restaurant affixed to the top.


24th January 2009
Tuborg wrote:
Originally Posted by CologneMike
Last-gasp bid on Limerick Boat Club plan (Limerick Leader) 21 January 2009

But Michael Daly of Fordmount Developments, the joint applicants of the project, said he was disappointed that the amount of capital the company have invested in the city "didn't seem to cut any ice" with Mayor of Limerick Cllr John Gilligan, whom he met last Thursday.

"Everyone I've spoken to said it's a fantastic project, but I had hoped to get a better hearing from the mayor. I had hoped that what we're spending in the city as a small company, and with the plans we have for the future, that it would have counted for more," said Mr Daly.

Thats a great line!

So let me get this straight. The fact that Mr Daly has already invested in the city gives him the right to deface the riverfront and ruin the setting of Sarsfield Bridge just so he can rake in some more cash!:mad:

Unbelievable stuff altogether!
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Re: Limerick Boat Club ~ Wellesley Pier ~ Poor Man’s Kilkee ~ Sarsfield Bridge

Postby CologneMike » Mon Mar 02, 2009 8:36 pm

25th January 2009
CologneMike wrote:
THE fate of the €20 million redevelopment of Limerick Boat Club will be decided next Monday.

But Michael Daly of Fordmount Developments, the joint applicants of the project, said he was disappointed that the amount of capital the company have invested in the city "didn't seem to cut any ice" with Mayor of Limerick Cllr John Gilligan, whom he met last Thursday.

"Everyone I've spoken to said it's a fantastic project, but I had hoped to get a better hearing from the mayor. I had hoped that what we're spending in the city as a small company, and with the plans we have for the future, that it would have counted for more," said Mr Daly.

Mayor Gilligan had previously told this newspaper he would not be "blackmailed" into voting in favour of the plans, which members say could be forced to close if the plans are not given the go-ahead. "Hard decisions have to be made when you're planning a city and my answer will be 'no'," said Mayor Gilligan.


Tuborg to be fair (irrespective of its merits, good, bad or indifferent), the developer made a very direct point on Mayor Gilligan’s doorstep, as Gilligan playing to the gallery last year was first to the win the race to blast the proposal outright without leaving the door open for the developer to have a second opportunity to modify it.

Strangely enough the same Gilligan has no heritage whims about Patrick Street / Ellen Street or the proposed pvc tinsel roof to cover the Milk Market and he supports them both outright. His beggar bowl talk is all about the government financing St Mary’s Park regeneration, the government setting up a task force to tackle the mega fall-out from Dell or the government solving our serious crime issues.

But god forbid when a local takes risks by building quality commercial buildings in his home town and then received the p*ss-off treatment from the city’s first citizen. That sucks.

This boat club proposal on the pier has the potential to destroy the cut-stone bridge as it is a very difficult site to develop. Having said that I have warmed to the modern design of the “Poor Mans Kilkee” side, that depicts oars and sails. If it goes ahead, then again the materials used will determine its success or not.

See also this.

Again to be fair, Daly said he would walk away from the proposal if it was voted against and he never threaten to spend his capital elsewhere as Chieftain Construction said if they didn’t get their own way in Coonagh.

If the original piers (floating docks) where built a bit wider then it would have been very likely that five-six storey stone warehouses would have been built on them. Thus giving the argument for or against height today, another perspective.


25th January 2009
Tuborg wrote:Fair enough but I think you have to judge each development separately. Riverpoint and the city central project have by and large been positive developments but there is a lot more at stake here with the plans for the boat club.

Its certainly not the worst proposal in the world but I just dont think its right for this extremely sensitive location. The developers can talk it up all they like but I believe it would totally overshadow and dominate Sarsfield Bridge and thats just not acceptable in my book!

Just on that picture you posted, its a pity those stone warehouses didnt survive. They could have made nice loft style apartments with restaurants/bars facing onto the Shannon.

They would've added a bit of character to the quays anyway compared to the nasty buildings on the site at the moment!


27th January 2009
CologneMike wrote:Limerick boat club plans thrown a lifeline by councillors (Limerick Leader) 27 January 2009

By Anne Sheridan

CITY councillors have made a near unanimous decision to remove Limerick Boat Club, which dates back to 1870, from the list of protected structures at City Hall last night, paving the way for the development to proceed.

Planners at Limerick City Council were also urging councillors to treat the multi-million plans to rehouse the club favourably.

"I recommend that the City Council approve that a decision to grant permission be made at the Limerick Boat Club site at Wellesley Pier," stated John Field, director of service, in a letter to councillors last week.

In council correspondence, Mr Field also recommended that the City Council vote in favour of deleting the site from the record of protected structures.

The vote to remove the building was passed by 13 votes to two, with Mayor of Limerick John Gilligan and fellow Independent Cllr Kathleen Leddin opposing the motion.

Independent Cllr Pat Kennedy initially called for both votes to be adjourned for one month to allow for a presentation to City Hall from the joint developers, the Boat Club and Fordmount Developments.

However, following a brief recess councillors decided to take just one motion and deliberate on another aspect to the plans this Friday, January 30.

The €20m plans for the site will be given a final push this Friday morning, when developer Michael Daly will discuss the development. The plans are to include a new state-of-the-art home for Limerick Boat Club, offices, a cafe/bar and restaurant on the upper level overlooking the river.

Three quarters of the 17 city councillors will then have to vote in favour of a material contravention to the City Development Plan to allow commercial uses on a land zoned open space.

Labour Cllr Joe Leddin, a member of Limerick Boat Club, said "if it wasn't delisted it (the development] would have been dead in the water." Cllr Leddin said he is optimistic about the outcome of Friday's meeting, and believes it will be a chance for councillors to address contentious issues, such as the scale and design of the "iconic" glass and steel building.

Mr Daly told this newspaper: "We would have to regard the meeting as very encouraging. It was a very positive step and we are encouraged by it."

Nineteen submissions were received by City Hall regarding the development, including several objections to the plans. A further seven submissions were received outside the planning time-frame and could not be considered.

Fears over two Limerick city hotels (Limerick Leader)

Trading difficulties for Michael Daly’s (Fordmount) Castletroy Park Hotel / Marriott Hotel


28th January 2009
Dreamstate wrote:More Proof That Our City Is Governed By A Crowd Of Gob****es!!!!! And That Money Is More Important Than Our Heritage


28th January 2009
demolition man wrote:Initially I was very much against the new limerick rowing club proposal but apon seeing the above images I've changed my mind.I cant argue with the proposal as i think it will open the shannon up to the public and will make the river once again feel more inclusive with the city.It looks also as though it can become an iconic building which is something limerick really needs right now.This forum tends to knock almost every new building being propsed for limerick and for a good reason to as many have no architectural merit at all.But in this case i think the critism is harsh juding by it's enevitable benefits to the city. As a comparison it seems a good decision by our inept councilors for once unlike the tripe opera centre that was given the all clear which will see a further destruction of historical limerick.


28th January 2009
CologneMike wrote:
Originally Posted by Dreamstate

More Proof That Our City Is Governed By A Crowd Of Gob****es!!!!! And That Money Is More Important Than Our Heritage


Dreamstate, very similar developers built Sarsfield (Wellesley) Bridge and the floating dock and they did so for purely commercial reasons. I would even say we lost a lot more heritage because of poverty than due to commercial activity. More importantly we lost a lot of our population since 1856 due economic decline as well!
Wellesley Bridge Toll Charges 1856

FOR every horse, Mule or Ass, laden or unladen, and not drawing, the sum of one Penny.

FOR every . . . . . .

FOR every . . . . . .

FOR every Passenger passing over said Bridge, the Sum of One halfpenny, for each and every time passing except such Person or Persons as shall be driven in any Coach, Chariot, Berlin Chaise, Chair or Calash, and the Driver or Drivers thereof, and the Footman or Footmen, Servant, or Servants thereof, standing behind the same, and except the Driver or Drivers of any cart, car or Waggon and any person riding on any Horse, Mule or Ass.

By Order

John Roche
Secretary to Limerick Harbour Commissioners.



29th January 2009
Dreamstate wrote:
Originally Posted by CologneMike
Dreamstate, very similar developers built Sarsfield (Wellesley) Bridge and the floating dock and they did so for purely commercial reasons. I would even say we lost a lot more heritage because of poverty than due to commercial activity. More importantly we lost a lot of our population since 1856 due economic decline as well!

It really surprises me that Limerick City Council can take the whole Opera block out of the architectural conservation area and get away with it .Now they are removing a building thats on the National Heritage Inventory of Protected structures while everyone sits back and says ' its ok because the developments are gonna create employment'......Why not just build on Pery Square altogether? Im sure we could easily get a 40 storey building on one of those derelict old Georgian city blocks that are falling down!!!!!! Interesting also that the only piece of Green area in the background of Mr.Dalys office PR photograph in Riverpoint is the boat club site...I guess we should be thankful that the Hunt Museum green area wasnt clearly visible from his window


30th January 2009
justnotbothered wrote:The problem with democracy is it allows people like Joe Leddin get elected.


30th January 2009
Dreamstate wrote:On a separate matter...are political donations still allowed ? Then again , I guess a good accountant can find ways of hiding them for benefactors ;)


30th January 2009
Tuborg wrote:Here we go.

I always knew our highly competent city councillors would do the right thing. Oh no wait, they havent!:rolleyes:
Go ahead for €20 million development of Limerick Boat Club (Live95fm)

The way has been cleared for a 20 million euro redevelopment of Limerick Boat Club.

Limerick City Councillors have voted to rezone Wellesley Pier at a specially convened meeting in City Hall today.

Earlier this week the current Limerick Boat Club structures were de-listed.

The Club President, Dermot Moloney has thanked the councillors for supporting the development which remains subject to certain conditions.

He says the new facilities will be important in revitalising the club`s popularity



31st January 2009
Dreamstate wrote:I am so so upset by all this! Just a week ago 5-6 councillors were openly against the ( Boat Club ) scheme ....why the sudden change of mind??? Ladies and Gentlemen , This city is in big trouble and by electing these apes we are all responsible :(


31st January 2009
shanekeane wrote:
Originally Posted by Dreamstate
I am so so upset by all this! Just a week ago 5-6 councillors were openly against the ( Boat Club ) scheme ....why the sudden change of mind??? Ladies and Gentlemen , This city is in big trouble and by electing these apes we are all responsible


I hear that in tribute to this momentous decision, they're going to put a small sculpture of a brown manila envelope in front of the entrance.


1st February 2009
Dreamstate wrote:I dont think that many names will fit on a Manilla envelope !:)


1st February 2009
CologneMike wrote:Dreamstate, seriously I have the impression that you seem to have more nostalgic social attachments ;) to the red brick boat club than heritage concerns of the bridge itself. You seem to resent in general the changing face of the city by labelling developers (accountant) or councillors as crooks.

I may be wrong or at worst naïve but isn’t this “boat club” proposal the result of a “think-tank” get together by a group of individuals (Shannon Development, UL, local Architects etc, etc.) who did a little bit of brain-storming some two years or so ago?

If I remember correctly the aim was to identify projects (iconic or otherwise) that would benefit the city. Therefore, it is my understanding that Michael Daly’s Fordmount is just a private vehicle to make one of them happen now?

Sure they are no “angels” involved in the construction industry but your innuendos that back-handers were needed to force this proposal through the city hall is over the top! Unless of course you know something that we don’t.

Your critic that the proposal is a just commercial, is one where I don’t have a problem with. Best example is the UL’s Concert Hall or Thomond Park both of them have to pay their own keep. This will apply to the proposed Boat Club building too. All three will play their role in bringing visitors (cultural / sport) to the city.

I would agree with you that an opportunity was lost for not organising an architectural competition for the boat club. These developer led proposals don’t cater for that. This shows again to me that our city, run by three local authorities is lacking one “coherent vision” for one city. Thankfully concerned groups involved in that “think-tank” are not content in passively waiting for the Minister of Environment to solve the “three-council” issue but forcing “vision with action” now to fill this void.

I really hope Michael Daly delivers a high quality contemporary building that will complement the fine cut-stone bridge. If he does not deliver, he will experience a very uncomfortable existence in his home town for years to come . . . . . . . .

Image

The Vision of a Revitalised Limerick

Peter Coyne / Edward Walsh

The Fundamental Vision

Arising from the 20 interviews with a selection of leading figures in the wider city area, a uniformity of expression was evident concerning the present state of the city and the fundamental or intuitive vision of its future:

What Urban Limerick Looks Like
• Retail moving out to suburbs – retail values falling;
• Nobody manages the entirety of the city: it’s divided up between 3 competing local authorities;
• Depopulating and looking a bit derelict;
• It’s going nowhere – even though it could be great;
• Little development compared to other cities;
• No joined up thinking – or doing;
• Economy hanging on a shrinking base;
• Three huge concentrations of inner city deprivation;
• City centre dragged down by social and economic imbalance;
• No heart to the city;
• Absence of vibrancy and culture;
• The river could be so much more;
• Hardly any tourism – very little to attract them;
• Business areas abandoned after work;
• The bigger city has no leadership;
• The city is not embraced by the people – they don’t own it;
• Not even a cinema;
• Terrible reputation for crime that’s probably undeserved but these things are self-fulfilling;
• There is no vision

How Urban Limerick Should Look
• A growing city for the region - could be a 250,000 metropolitan population;
• A proper city with ambitious and accountable government with a can-do attitude;
• A honeypot for inward investment – a counterbalance to the overheated east;
• A bustling and exciting waterfront – an iconic heart to the city;
• Vibrancy in the city centre – 18-24 hour city;
• A critical mass of tourist attractions;
• Family-friendly city with the homes and amenities that encourage people with economic choice to live in the city;
• The retail centre for the region;
• The university an inextricable element of the city brand - connecting socially and culturally with the city as well as economically,
• New economic activities – a knowledge industry growth centre – renewed synergies with a growing 3rd and 4th level;
• Excellent transportation infrastructure and interconnectivity with other Atlantic cities – people able to commute between them;
• Docklands and King’s Island new and wonderful mixed use extensions to the city centre;
• Several big civic pride icons – buildings and places to put us on the world stage;
• Citizens taking pride and caring for their city;
• Leadership;
• A city known for arts and culture;
• A city with a vision
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Re: Limerick Boat Club ~ Wellesley Pier ~ Poor Man’s Kilkee ~ Sarsfield Bridge

Postby CologneMike » Mon Mar 02, 2009 8:48 pm

1st February 2009
KeepAnEyeOnBob wrote:It would be better to have no building at all, not even the nice little red-brick clubhouse, than have the monstrosity that they are seriously trying to get built there. Even bare concrete rather than grass on the site would be preferable as an eyesore, at least it would only be obvious if you looked over the side of the bridge.


3rd February 2009
NevilleNeville wrote:The big issue with the Boat Club decision is the fact that the majority vote made by councillors, with no formal training in architectural conservation, to remove a building from the list of protected structures, demeans the process of deeming builidngs worthy of being recorded as protected structures in the first place. Lets not forget that the building was included in the National Inventory of Architectural Heritage for Limerick City less than two years ago. If it was deemed significant enough to be listed at that point this decision seems all the more ridiculous. I could accept if there was a forum or committee decision by people with a track record in conservation but councillors making these decisions is a mockery of the legislation that was introduced to protect our heritage in the first place.

The fact as to buildings being commercial or not is not really the issue but that the other builidngs referred to i.e. Thomond Park and the Concert Hall are public buildings whereas the proposal for this site is primarily offices with the exception of the new boat club. A new public building might make the decision easier to swallow but not another office block.


5th February 2009
CologneMike wrote:
Originally Posted by NevilleNeville
The big issue with the Boat Club decision is the fact that the majority vote made by councillors, with no formal training in architectural conservation, to remove a building from the list of protected structures, demeans the process of deeming builidngs worthy of being recorded as protected structures in the first place. Lets not forget that the building was included in the National Inventory of Architectural Heritage for Limerick City less than two years ago. If it was deemed significant enough to be listed at that point this decision seems all the more ridiculous. I could accept if there was a forum or committee decision by people with a track record in conservation but councillors making these decisions is a mockery of the legislation that was introduced to protect our heritage in the first place.


I certainly would agree with your point that this could set a negative precedent for removing other buildings in the future.

Then again how could a more significant building like “Jackson’s Turret” with some 300 years of heritage not deem to be good enough to be included in the NIAH in the first place, but only after when a planning application threatened its surroundings was it included.

What’s the story with the fine cut-stone quays (Bishop’s and Howley’s)? Are they listed? The City Council plans to roll out a boardwalk on top of them!

One could argue that this makes the NIAH look just as ridiculous and as well undermining its own standing?

The 17 public elected City Councillors have after a two year period of time, voted 15 to 2 in favour of delisting the club house. This democratic process can’t be rubbished just because the Councillors are not qualified Architects but I do hope that they have weighed up all the sides of the pros and cons in the interest of the city. You can’t expect them to be Tax consultants either when it comes to deciding the rates!

Originally Posted by NevilleNeville
The fact as to buildings being commercial or not is not really the issue but that the other builidngs referred to i.e. Thomond Park and the Concert Hall are public buildings whereas the proposal for this site is primarily offices with the exception of the new boat club. A new public building might make the decision easier to swallow but not another office block.



It was my understanding that the main thrust of this proposal were for . . . .

Proposals for the facility off Sarsfield Bridge are to coincide with Limerick city's regeneration programme and the 'riverside city' development and include a museum, coffee shops, tourist information services, facilities for the theatre and the arts as well as a new pedestrian bridge linking the facility to Harvey's Quay and up onto the newly pedestrianised Bedford Row. "Our objective is to take advantage of the current riverside city programme to improve our facilities, while at the same time securing the future of Limerick Boat Club on Sarsfield Bridge and thereby promoting the sport of rowing in Limerick for generations to come," said Dermot Moloney, president, Limerick Boat Club

Mr Daly added that he believes this development should "regenerate Limerick Boat Club" and believes it is a "joint venture", rather than a commercially driven project.

He said his "dream is to have a restaurant on the top floor and have people say that when they come to Limerick they must go the restaurant on the top floor." A coffee shop could also be located towards the front of the building, where people could overlook the River Shannon, but Mr Daly said he does not "want to dictate the use as it may fly in the face of the planning process."
Source Limerick Leader

Originally Posted by NevilleNeville
Finally I wouldn't hold out too much hope for a quality contemporary builidng both due to the submission to the council thus far and also looking at the developer's previous track record for producing what might be solid commercial architecture but hardly inspiring artworks. The local authority had the option of insisting on an architectural competition for the site to replace the heritage it deemed fit to be removed but rejected it. Seems like Skibereen has more progressive thinking than Limerick these days!



Sure, people would easily agree on what solid commercial architecture is, but to find a common census on inspiring artworks depends on the eye of the beholder.

Architect Sean McCann said their design takes its inspiration from "ship hulls, lightweight fabric sails, rowing oars and robust sea walls."

Image

Evaluating the contents of the NIAH?

If I dare ask, what were the merits for this modest clubhouse structure (c.100 year old) to make its way into NIAH in the first place? Why was the boat storage shed not included as well?

If we take a look at all the components of the bridge that are listed in the NIAH i.e. Sarsfield Bridge, Shannon Boat Club, 1916 Memorial, Limerick Boat Club, Floating Dock (Wellesley Pier and Harvey's Quay), Lock (Honan’s Quay) (click also additional images) and then assign to each structure a merit note lets say from 1 to 10. Then my subjective order of merit would shape out like this . . . .

Note 10: Sarsfield Bridge
Note 9: Floating dock (Wellesley Pier / Harvey’s Quay)
Note 9: Lock (Honan’s Quay)
Note 7: Shannon Boat Club House
Note 6: Memorial (1916 Rising)
Note 3: Limerick Boat Club House

Therefore in my opinion, my lowly merit note for the “Limerick Boat Club House” would be enough to justify the City Councils right to re-consider its importance in the interest of the city when comparing the benefits of the Fordmount’s proposal as against the heritage loss of the original clubhouse.

The real big issue for me is the potential damage this proposal can inflict on the character of the bridge / floating dock but not the loss of this clubhouse building!

Value wise, I think the city is being offered a good deal in that we are trading-in a “boat” here and getting a “ship” in return!

Image

Are we bold enough to risk change with this contemporary design with its proposed daily use to enhance Limerick’s finest structure?

[align=center]Or[/align]

Are we reckless enough to change forever with this contemporary design with its proposed daily use to debase Limerick’s finest structure?

Personally this is a hard one to call?


6th February 2009
Dreamstate wrote:Well Mr.Neville , I checked the scheme out and there is in fairness 1 room at the Bridge Level that has been named as Civic Use. It would probably fit about 40-50 people at a squeeze! As for the Museum etc.....?????http://www.limerick.ie/eplan/FileRefDetails.aspx?file_number=08163&LASiteID=0

Im also very amused that the LCC website states that 'PLANNER : NONE' made the decision.Sources tell me that Ms.Campbell under Mr.Reeves guidance made this decision ....also .I will personally pay for any of the objectors appeal costs....you can call me on 061-496347


6th February 2009
justnotbothered wrote:You're a dreamer Mike if you take the developer at his word.

We're effectively building a block with no windows facing either Poor Man's Kilkee or Sarsfield bridge. Don't be fooled by words, look at the plans and see for yourself how crap they are.

Limerick Boat Club have no rowers btw, they couldn't even arrange a social, masters crew this year, ffs.


6th February 2009
Originally Posted by Dreamstate
Well Mr.Neville , I checked the scheme out and there is in fairness 1 room at the Bridge Level that has been named as Civic Use. It would probably fit about 40-50 people at a squeeze! As for the Museum etc.....?????

Im also very amused that the LCC website states that 'PLANNER : NONE' made the decision.Sources tell me that Ms.Campbell under Mr.Reeves guidance made this decision ....also .I will personally pay for any of the objectors appeal costs....you can call me on 061-496347


justnotbothered wrote:I'm lodging an appeal anyway Dreamstate, and I'm glad to spend my own money on it but if you want to give me a hand drafting it, send me a pm.
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Re: Limerick Boat Club ~ Wellesley Pier ~ Poor Man’s Kilkee ~ Sarsfield Bridge

Postby CologneMike » Mon Mar 02, 2009 9:03 pm

7th February 2009
CologneMike wrote:
Originally Posted by justnotbothered
You're a dreamer Mike if you take the developer at his word.

As you know yourself putting thoughts to paper, looking for material, scanning through old posts involves a little bit of time and effort. Therefore the more surprised I find your remark which leaves me with the impression that you don’t seem to bother to read peoples posts properly!

The bottom line for me was to bring a little bit balance to the “Limerick Boat Club” topic.

Originally Posted by justnotbothered
We're effectively building a block with no windows facing either Poor Man's Kilkee or Sarsfield bridge.


Since you have access to these plans for the last year or so, I would say your eye sight is letting you down. If you study both images together, one can get a three dimensional perspective of the Poor Mans Kilkee side of the building and it reveals a lot of glass to me.

Image
Image

Originally Posted by justnotbothered
Don't be fooled by words, look at the plans and see for yourself how crap they are.


To say that the plans are crap is farcical. The Ennis Road side needs some improvement and the pier location maybe controversial, but these plans are never crap!

Below are before and after visualisations

  • Bedford Road
  • Sarsfield Street
  • Honan’s Quay
  • Ennis Road
  • O’Callaghan’s Strand


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CologneMike
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Re: Limerick Boat Club ~ Wellesley Pier ~ Poor Man’s Kilkee ~ Sarsfield Bridge

Postby CologneMike » Mon Mar 02, 2009 9:09 pm

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8th February 2009
justnotbothered wrote:
Originally Posted by CologneMike
The bottom line for me was to bring a little bit balance to the “Limerick Boat Club” topic.

To say that the plans are crap is farcical. The Ennis Road side needs some improvement and the pier location maybe controversial, but these plans are never crap!


You aren't bringing balance, you're cheerleading for an ugly building in a sensitive site.

The plans are absolute rubbish, I'm old enough to remember the many promises which came with Cruises street, Arthurs Quay Shopping centre and Steamboat quay to be as easily impressed by some lego inspired rubbish flung up on the river. It's so utterly out of character with it's surrounds that I struggle to see how you can see any merit in it.

The reason the you might have felt there wasn't any balance to this topic is because when 9 out of 10 people can see a proposal is crap, it's always going to bring about an unbalanced discussion. If we all rounded up against Steamboat Quay would you suddenly feel a burning desire to praise it? Or if we all felt Todds was looking a bit shabby, would you suddenly see careful, exotic nuances in it's design which we have somehow missed?

Again, I'm surprised you stake any part of your reputation on this site by defending and cheerleading this project.


8th February 2009
demolition man wrote:I'm all for it.That makes it 8 out of 10.;)


8th February 2009
Nautiman wrote:Me too, make that 7 out of 10.


8th February 2009
bonzer1again wrote:I'm still not quite sure about it, I would guess that looking at it from down the river, from Shannon Bridge, that it would look quite impressive,with the glass front, but most people won't really be seeing it from there, it will be as they traverse sarsfield bridge. From either direction on Sarsfield bridge it doesn't really impress as the sides of the building are very off putting. I have one question about it though, that I hope someone can answer, will the access ramp from poormans kilkee, be able to be raised, I'm sure it must, but I haven't seen it said anywhere.
So it's still 7 out of 10, and Colognemike great work with the photo's, they really are a great way to get a feel for the building!!


8th February 2009
vkid wrote:wasnt mad on the original but i kind of like the updated design.


8th February 2009
gunter wrote:Buildings at locations like this (the Boat Club) have to be either, very low key (like the existing structures), or genuinely outstanding.

I think the proposed building is quite good, but I don't think it's outstanding.

Are there not too many competing design ideas going on? the sloping glazed feature at one end, the old fashioned, modern movement, strip window bit (which is nautical in inspiration and I quite like) and the sloping facade panels bolted onto one side!

If there was some hierarchy in the use of these different design themes, maybe it would work better, but each or these elements is of almost equal scale and, apparently, equal importance. It looks unconvincing to me, like a car assembled using bits of a Hummer, bits of a Edsel, and an airport control tower.

I think that Nevillex2 made a very valid point earlier in saying that, given the 'protected structure' status of the existing buildings, the Council should have insisted on an architectural competition for any development that involved their demolition. That would have removed a huge part of the uncertainty about the architectural quality of the proposed replacement, given that the councillors decision to de-list is presumably tantamount to a grant of planning permission in this case.

I take on board CologneMike's assertion that there's a bigger picture here about injecting some energy and can-do into the regeneration of the city, but this is a big gamble for Limerick and one that hinges almost completely on the architecture.

Lets hope the guys in Bord Pleanála will still be on top of their game when this lands on their desk.


8th February 2009
KeepAnEyeOnBob wrote:I hate these mock-up renders, with their cheerful sky and carefully-shadowed development in pristine condition. It's completely divorced from reality, where you have to put up with the thing under a grey sky, with half the building in shadow (and casting shadow), and the effects of rain/damp/pollution on the white building panels. Decent proper buildings look respectable in all conditions, even if not perhaps as flashy on a mock-up. justnotbothered is right about it being out of character.

I can understand how some people might find the concept to have some appeal - there is a nice dramatic element to the front of the building (i.e. the part facing down the Shannon) and perhaps it is possible to have that kind of development on the boat club site (certainly one can find examples in other countries) without detracting from the bridge.

However, I do not understand anyone trusting in the execution of the design, or indeed how a lot of the building would look in-situ for real. Without giving up aspirations for our region and country to improve - the track record is not good. Perhaps a comparison with Arthur's Quay or Cruises Street isn't fair, but I would certainly expect it to perhaps be more Clarion than Riverpoint in quality (the latter is acceptable, particularly in its location, but by no means some incredible feat of design - the former is still acceptable, but just a bit cheap-n-nasty looking with the panelling and design).

I certainly think the site is too sensitive for people to be cheerleading wildly for the development, or councillors to be so swift in removing protected status from relatively inoffensive existing buildings.


9th February 2009
Tuborg wrote:
Originally Posted by justnotbothered

The plans are absolute rubbish, I'm old enough to remember the many promises which came with Cruises street, Arthurs Quay Shopping centre and Steamboat quay to be as easily impressed by some lego inspired rubbish flung up on the river. It's so utterly out of character with it's surrounds that I struggle to see how you can see any merit in it.



I think essentially that is the point. I wouldnt go as far as to say that the plans are rubbish because there are elements of this design that have some merit, namely the curved glass frontage. I dont have an issue with the loss of the existing buildings either, because in fairness they are extremely modest structures, with very little architectural significance.

Ultimately it is Sarsfield Bridge which stands to be the big loser here, the more I look at the plans, all I really see is this proposed structure basically giving the two fingers to the bridge. It just dosent pay it enough respect, the design of the bridge facing elevation isnt strong enough, it just looks like its cocking its ugly arse at it!

You really do get a sense of deja vu here. How many times have we seen proposals like this being championed as some kind of a massive leap forward for the city?

Admittedly Im not old enough to remember the development of Arthurs Quay or Cruises Street so I can only go on what I've read and what I've seen. The decision to allow the demolition of Cruises Hotel in particular was highly contentious and a huge gamble. Subsequently, the novelty of Cruises Street wore off pretty quickly and most people would agree that the city is now worse off for that decision.

I know its difficult to directly compare these two situations but there are definitely similarities all the same. We cant keep making the same mistakes over and over again and I think recent history would tell us to be very wary of this current proposal!


10th February 2009
vitruvius wrote:you'd swear that land in Limerick was €100m an acre! - there's plenty of space in Limerick for (oh dear!) iconic structures without plonking one into the poor old Shannon. What about the nearby Dunnes site on Sarsfield St and that creepy park in Arthur's quay:)


10th February 2009
vitruvius wrote:I know how sad it is to be replying to myself, but the though occurred to me that that park in Arthur's quay was pushed through by the council with the same zeal as this sub Liebeskindian steamship.
And just look how that project,which was deemed necessary for Limerick turned out.
Do they have any collective memory?
Why not just leave well enough alone - let the apartment dwellers continue to sunbathe on poor man's Kilkee.


21st February 2009
massamann wrote:Have to say, that even when this thread moves onto a different topic, the issue of What Are We To Build on the Boatshed? still gets stuck in my craw.

I just can't get away from the fact that we are handing over the highest profile site in the city to a private office development. Call me a pinko lefty socialist if you like, but to me an ugly public building is still better than an identically ugly private building.

The addition of a cafe or meeting room on the ground floor of an office block just doesn't cut it for me. It was mentioned in the thread before that wouldn't this be a fantastic location for the city library, if it has to leave the Granary. This has the added bonus of not requiring an overly large, overly dominant structure in the middle of the river.

Much as I try to look dispassionately at what is being proposed, I don't feel any excitement about it. And even if the designs were top drawer, Pritzker winning standard, well, short of getting a job for the tenant, I'm never going to get to see the inside of them. And I'm not sure that's what an "iconic structure" should aspire to be...


23rd February 2009
SuperCool wrote:Massamann.

You're entitled to you oppionion obviously, but to claim it's the "highest profile site" in the city is a joke.

Be honest here.


23rd February 2009
massamann wrote:I'd like to believe that my opinion isn't dishonest, it's just DIFFERENT FROM YOURS.

It's a site in the middle of the bridge that is the main crossing point of the Shannon into the city. From this bridge you can see the castle, the cathedral, curraghower falls, and along Sarsfield St into the commercial centre of town. There's a picture in my parents house of this very view. Short of knocking down the castle, I can't think of anywhere in the city that's undeniably higher profile. Although I'm happy to hear which are the alternatives that you think are more visible.

Having said all that, I'd still be in favour of building something here. It's just that my first choice wouldn't be privately owned offices. And it would have to be of a higher standard than this proposal. After all, it's not like we're stuck for either office space or development land. There is no imperative to building here.

And if this site isn't high profile, maybe you should mention that to the developer: it'd save him alot of money and hassle if his development relocated away from the river. But even though we may disagree on his proposal, both he and I seem to think that this site is worth having and therefore worth debating.

So what do you think? Do you think private offices on this site are a good idea?


24th February 2009
Griff wrote:I think its fair to say the boat club site is the highest profile site in the city - certainly its location means that it can be seen from many different vantage points - along the quays/strands and from many offices and hotels. If the building is an eyesore - and that depends on individual opinion - then its going to be the most visible eyesore in Limerick. From my point of view Sarsfield bridge is possibly the best structure we have in the city and Im very unsure if what is being proposed will be a valuable addition...
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Re: Limerick Boat Club ~ Wellesley Pier ~ Poor Man’s Kilkee ~ Sarsfield Bridge

Postby trace » Tue Mar 03, 2009 1:08 am

oh God, slow down there a minute. Are you on speed or what?:eek:
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Re: Limerick Boat Club ~ Wellesley Pier ~ Poor Man’s Kilkee ~ Sarsfield Bridge

Postby CologneMike » Wed Mar 25, 2009 8:16 pm

Choppy waters for 'iconic' Boat Club (Limerick Leader)

By Anne Sheridan

IT HAS been far from plain sailing for the proposed €20m redevelopment of Limerick Boat Club, as plans for an "iconic structure" jutting out into the river Shannon have now been appealed to An Bord Pleanala.

After fierce controversy at Limerick City Council last month when the building was delisted, opening up the city's "most sensitive site" to commercial usage, the developers may have to navigate further choppy waters.

Opposition to the redevelopment has been mounted by a North Circular Road resident, another rowing club situated opposite the site of the development and a local historical society.

Local resident Greg Leddin, the Shannon Rowing Club, and Thomond Archaeological and Historical Society have written to oppose the development, after also lodging objections with City Hall last year.

As a result of the objections, construction on the site will be impeded until June 30 next at the earliest, should An Bord Pleanala uphold Limerick City Council's original ruling.

Michael Daly of Fordmount Developments Ltd, the joint developers with Limerick Boat Club, told the Limerick Leader that he is "confident that it was a good application".

However, Mr Daly added that he found it "disappointing to see that two neighbouring rowing clubs can't reach agreement."

Labour's Cllr Joe Leddin, a member of Limerick Boat Club, said he wasn't surprised that appeals had been lodged given that it was "an emotive and contentious application".

However, Cllr Leddin said he is confident the development will go ahead, even if it faces a delay of up to six months.
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Re: Limerick Boat Club ~ Wellesley Pier ~ Poor Man’s Kilkee ~ Sarsfield Bridge

Postby CologneMike » Fri Jul 17, 2009 9:28 pm

Boss steps down from €100m Limerick company (Limerick Leader)

By Anne Sheridan

ONE of Limerick's most well-known property developers has stepped down from the company he created five years ago, amid fears that the Anglo Irish backed company is suffering major financial difficulties.

Developer Michael Daly, 51, has now resigned :eek: from Fordmount Property Group Ltd, and its subsidiary companies, which have pioneered a series of notable developments within the city.

The company once had a net worth in excess of €100m, earning Mr Daly a spot on the Sunday Times Rich List a number of years ago.

But the new managing director, well known solicitor Adrian Frawley was unavailable to comment on its current financial standing.

To date, Fordmount have delivered at least €300 million worth of landmark commercial developments in Limerick.

However, Mr Daly still holds a position in a number of other companies, including Daly Capital Holdings Ltd, and management companies in charge of the Castletroy retirement villages, and is believed to be pursuing other interests.

His departure from the company has now left a question mark hanging over two other major developments in Limerick: the €20m redevelopment of Limerick Boat Club on Sarsfield Bridge, which is currently before An Bord Pleanala, and a proposed ten-screen cinema complex in Bedford Row.

It is understood the position of managing director of all Fordmount companies has been taken up by Adrian Frawley, a managing partner with Dermot G O'Donovan & Partners solicitors.

Despite several attempts by the Limerick Leader to contact Mr Frawley, this could not be directly confirmed.

However, Mr Frawley is listed as the new director of Fordmount Property Group Ltd and Fordmount Investments Ltd, according to documents lodged with the CRO last month, which were signed off by director Michael Sherry, 58, the former Ireland rugby star.

Other shareholders in the Fordmount Property Group, as of this March, include solicitors, Tommy Dalton, Dermot O’Donovan, and Mr Sherry. Mr Dalton and Mr O’Donovan are also based in the same legal practice as Mr Frawley. The Fordmount company were behind the construction of the iconic 13-storey Riverpoint building on Howley’s Quay, the Castletroy retirement village, the development of Bedford Row and the five-star Marriott Hotel.

Fordmount purchased the Castletroy Park Hotel from US billionaire philanthropist Chuck Feeney for about €25 million in 2004.

Mr Daly previously worked as an accountant with Grant Thornton in Limerick before establishing his own company.

It has been confirmed he stepped down as managing director of Fordmount on June 29 last, which had included the position of MD of five property companies in the city, namely: Fordmount Developments Ltd, Fordmount Developments (Savoy) Ltd, Fordmount Investments Ltd, Fordmount Property Group Ltd, and Fordmount Retirement Villages Ltd.

In July 2008, the company acquired the Nevada


An Bord Pleanála Status: Case is due to be decided by 18-08-2009

Looks like as if Michael Daly will now put his oars away.

I hope its does not effect their cinema plans for Bedford Row and their plans for the northside regeneration project.
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Re: Limerick Boat Club ~ Wellesley Pier ~ Poor Man’s Kilkee ~ Sarsfield Bridge

Postby Tuborg » Sun Jul 19, 2009 4:54 pm

CologneMike wrote:An Bord Pleanála Status: Case is due to be decided by 18-08-2009

Looks like as if Michael Daly will now put his oars away.

I hope its does not effect their cinema plans for Bedford Row and their plans for the northside regeneration project.


It's difficult not to see this impacting on the various projects they had in the pipeline, in particular the boat club, Michael Daly was its chief proponent after all! I wonder who will take over the stewardship of that project now?

You really would have to wonder, just how financially stable Fordmount are. It starting to look like the latest case of "too much, too soon" for another property developer!
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