Metro North

Re: Metro North

Postby missarchi » Wed Dec 03, 2008 3:32 pm

This list has changed so many times.
So I have decided to attached the most current one once and for all.
Dublin City Council and Fingal managed to somehow sneak in.
Attachments

[The extension pdf has been deactivated and can no longer be displayed.]

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Re: Metro North

Postby SeamusOG » Thu Dec 04, 2008 1:34 am

I'm afraid I still don't quite get the way things are done about these important projects.

The relevant, recent, documents which have been so far been released about this project stated that the last date for submissions to ABP would be the 29th of October.

Yet the two local councils which are directly affected make their submissions on the 26th of November? Almost a month late.

I'm sure both bodies were aware that the project was in the pipeline, and Fingal's recent presentation to the Oireachtas Committee on Transport would appear to confirm that this was the case.

So what does ABP mean by "the deadline for submissions"?:confused:
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Re: Metro North

Postby missarchi » Sat Dec 06, 2008 9:47 pm

Seamus O'G wrote:So what does ABP mean by "the deadline for submissions"?:confused:


http://www.pleanala.ie/sid/sidpa.htm
http://www.pleanala.ie/sid/sidapp.htm

are they different or is it just me? pa planning authority...
anyway with one the public can comment the other they cannot.. SEA???
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Re: Metro North

Postby missarchi » Fri Feb 06, 2009 5:30 am

Action 12
We will Ensure bus services are redesigned to provide for:
• – Carriage of bicycles on buses

http://www.transport.ie/upload/general/Smarter_Travel_5_feb_2009.pdf

friendly competition ;)
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Re: Metro North

Postby PTB » Fri Feb 06, 2009 9:40 am

I'd be interested to see how that would work. Some sort of rack on the back of the bus perhaps?
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Re: Metro North

Postby missarchi » Sun Mar 01, 2009 1:18 am

9th February 2009 - An Bord Pleanala Confirm Metro North Preliminary Hearing

On 9th February 2009, An Bord Pleanála confirmed to RPA that the Metro North Preliminary Hearing will take place on 2nd March 2009 in Croke Park. The Inspector has been named as Mr Kevin Moore.

Click here to view or download letter received on 12th February 2009 by RPA from An Bord Pleanála confirming Notice of Oral Hearing



http://www.rpa.ie/en/news/Pages/MetroNorthPreliminaryHearing.aspx
http://www.rpa.ie/Documents/Metro%20North/MN%20Documents/12Feb09MetroNorthABP3787NoticeOfOralHearing.pdf

TENDERS

http://www.rpa.ie/Documents/Metro%20North/MN%20Press/MN%20Press%20Releases/Metro%20North%20Press%20Release%20-%20Tender%20Bids%20Recieved%20270209.pdf

how many cubic metres of concrete?
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Re: Metro North

Postby PVC King » Sun Mar 01, 2009 3:27 pm

The fantasy continues, rising taxes, cuts in services and probable public sector pay cuts accross the board; yet the metro for which there are no funds for whatsoever continues apace. Outdone only by the instruction of Buro Happold (who I recently disinstructed on an unrelated project on the basis of cost and slow service) on Metro West.

Please tell me I am going to wake up and find GDP growing at 8%, Anglo shares at €17 and Waterford Crystal owned by Sir Anthony and institutional funds.

1980 comes back and there is even less spine at the top this time. S & P are watching
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Re: Metro North

Postby cgcsb » Sun Mar 01, 2009 4:10 pm

How long does it take after prelimenary hearing for real hearing to start?

PVC King, as far as I'm aware, money was already set aside a few years ago for the enabling works. And DCC have made provisions for those works to take place this year. Also as far as i know some developers with interests in building along the route have to contribute €€€€ to construction works
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Re: Metro North

Postby PVC King » Sun Mar 01, 2009 4:35 pm

Also as far as i know some developers with interests in building along the route have to contribute €€€€ to construction works


I've no doubt if we were discussing this 2 years ago that would be true; in the current market everything is driven by cashflow and the funding position of the main banks and their reliance on short term commercial papaer has meant that they are simply not extending development finance to pay even day to day bills unless projects are more than 50% built. Development levies like this make a lot of sense in a market where there is demand and developers can raise finance those days are unfortunately not around at present.

I can also see DCC reprovisioning any sums set aside to make up for the major shortfall in business rates that will hit as large numbers of small businesses close.

Committing billions to this project in the absence of development levies and rising taxes sends out all the wrong signals. This project should be shelved until the funds are there to pay for it; that is presuming it ever stacks up.

As for Metro West, how did that like the Citywest Luas line ever get approved let alone the latter being built. Brian Cowen's build it and they will come line on the front of the times last month was just hilarious. Almost up there with Bertie's 'The Boom just got Boomier' quip.

Lets make sure the bust does end up getting lingeried into a bustier
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Re: Metro North

Postby cgcsb » Sun Mar 01, 2009 5:37 pm

well it'll be difficult to recover from recession without good public transport.
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Re: Metro North

Postby PVC King » Sun Mar 01, 2009 5:52 pm

There won't be any recovery for a decade unless spending is reigned in; if you raise taxes to build gold plated projects employers will go and find cheaper people elsewhere.

I am all for public transport of a high standard but now is not the time to give emmigrants a €3bn fast ticket out.

How can anyone justify a metro line from Tallaght to Dublin Airport at any time; how can 300 plus redundancies at Dublin Bus be justified to provide an over-speced metro line that won't be delivered for another 6 plus years.

I agree you need public transport in a recession and not bus drivers on the dole to fund endless consultancy on a project for which there are no funds. Adam Smith hit the nail on the head in the Wealth of Nations it is all about the division of scarce resources and now that derivative money has been cruelly replaced by real money hard choices are required in the division of those really scarce resources and many hungry interest groups to be fed.
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Re: Metro North

Postby publicrealm » Sun Mar 01, 2009 8:13 pm

cgcsb wrote:How long does it take after prelimenary hearing for real hearing to start?

PVC King, as far as I'm aware, money was already set aside a few years ago for the enabling works. And DCC have made provisions for those works to take place this year. Also as far as i know some developers with interests in building along the route have to contribute €€€€ to construction works


I think that part of the problem is that the supplementary development contributions are only payable in the event that the levied development actually commences.

Even 3/4 months ago development projects along the corridor were being put on ice. It's worse now - so much more of the money to pay for the line will have to come from Government. Not going to happen in the short to medium term I suspect.

I still think that Government should proceed to full planning stage and then hope that things will pick up after that.
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Re: Metro North

Postby PVC King » Mon Mar 02, 2009 8:10 pm

publicrealm wrote:I still think that Government should proceed to full planning stage and then hope that things will pick up after that.


I disagree on the basis of

[quote="http://www.rte.ie/news/2009/0302/metro.html"]The RPA has steadfastly refused to put a price on the Metro - arguing it would make a farce of its bidding process - but the ballpark figure has widely been reported as €]

A refusal to even address outline costs on a multi-billion euro project is combined with their only justification to proceed now being reputational damage.

Lets consider Irelands reputation before the Anglo-less days and before de Metro was even Bertie's swan song to Dublin Central; very low corporate taxes and a perception that personal income taxes or the costs of the bridge between what empolyers pay and what skilled workers will actually receive were going only one way i.e. favourably.

Lets consider Irelands reputation if public spending isn't reigned in, higher personal taxes meaning either lower real wages and a demotivated workforce or higher employment costs. Probable increased sovereign debt costs due to ratings agencies weighing up declining employment tax revenues as FDI hits the exits and many of the best workers move abroad and spread a foreign tax base and downgrades triggering penalty rates of interest to existing holders of Government Bonds.

Lets consider the reputational damage of not delivering a project in the context of the promotors refusing to provide costs that stretch into the billions and the sovereign debt position worsening by the week combined with likely weakening demand i.e. potential rider numbers sinking by the day.

Good judgement by not proceeding is the only conclusion in 2009 but if it stacks up in a few years then hiring a team who can supply costs prior to development consent being sought so that a decision on cost benefit grounds in a rising market when soveign debt is managable and expandable!!
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Re: Metro North

Postby missarchi » Mon Mar 02, 2009 8:54 pm

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2009/0302/1224242083966.html

Tenders for Metro North to be lower due to falling costs

FRANK McDONALD, Environment Editor

FOUR TENDERS for Metro North received by the Railway Procurement Agency (RPA) last Friday are likely to be substantially lower than anticipated because of an estimated 20 per cent fall in construction costs.

The project, known to have been costed at €4.58 billion in 2004, would directly create between 5,000 and 7,000 jobs and would represent “the type of economic stimulus that Ireland needs at the moment”, said RPA chief executive Frank Allen.

A preliminary oral hearing on the agency’s draft Railway Order for Metro North, an 18km mainly underground line linking Swords with St Stephen’s Green, opens today in Croke Park before Kevin Moore, senior planning inspector with Bord Pleanála.

More than 300 submissions have been made, mostly in support of the project, after the draft Railway Order was submitted to the appeals board last September, Mr Allen said. “It’s at an advanced stage of the planning process so now is the time to move ahead.”

Procurement of Metro North was also “at a critical stage”, with some 600 boxes of tender submissions from the four “preferred bidders” – Irish and international consortiums with experience of tunnelling projects. These are to be evaluated in the coming months.

“Value for money is far greater now than it was even a year ago,” Mr Allen said, adding that an index compiled by the Society of Chartered Surveyors showed that there had been a 20 per cent drop in construction tender prices.

After the four tenders are evaluated, he said the RPA would invite two of the consortiums to submit “best and final offers” in July, with a view to choosing one of them for submission to the Government by the end of this year.

Mr Allen explained that under the public-private partnership deal being contemplated by the RPA, Metro North would be paid for over a 25-year period.

He said each bidder would have spent €10 million on their tenders. “It would send an important message internationally if the Government decided to proceed without delay on the project. But it would be very damaging if it didn’t.”

There is concern that with the Government facing an €11 billion shortfall in the public finances, Metro North could be a casualty.

This article appears in the print edition of the Irish Times

Bord Pleanála to hire experts to assess Metro North plan


TIM O'BRIEN

Bord Pleanála is to hire its own experts in the areas of noise, traffic, vibration and ground settlement in assessing the Railway Procurement Agency's plans for Metro north, the preliminary inquiry into the metro was told this morning.

Opening what he said was a "housekeeping" session to decide on the running order for the inquiry in Dublin's Croke Park today, Bord Pleanála senior planning inspector Kevin Moore said there had been almost 200 formal observations on plans for the 18 kilometre route from St Stephen's Green to north of Swords, eight kilometres of which is to be underground.

James Connolly SC for the Railway Procurement Agency told the hearing he expected the case in favour of Dublin's first metro route would take about six days to outline.

Others who are seeking time at the hearing include the Mater Hospital, schools, An Taisce, Iarnród Éireann, Fingal and Dublin City councils, Dublin Airport Authority, traders associations and individual residents associations.

The inquiry will also provide a period for cross-examination of witnesses which is expected to be considerable.

Colm Costello for the CIE group said negotiations between the procurement agency and the CIE group were ongoing and their success would impact on how much time the group would need to make its observations.

Mr Moore told the inquiry that once the running order and likely timescale for the inquiry proper was established, each of the parties would be advised in writing of the probable length and venue of the inquiry.

An environmental impact statement (EIS) on the project last September predicted the effects expected from the construction of the Metro line could include serious impacts on sensitive equipment at the Rotunda and Mater hospitals, and the possibility that the Mater may have to make alternative arrangements for operations.

and

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/frontpage/2009/0227/1224241894653.html

"We will look at which infrastructure projects can be safely deferred or abandoned. That means that some projects, like the metro projects in Dublin, would be put on the back-burner. We would scrap the old National Development Plan and reprioritise smaller, labour-intensive projects that can keep as many tradesmen and builders employed as possible."

no architecture :mad:
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Re: Metro North

Postby PVC King » Mon Mar 02, 2009 9:07 pm

missarchi wrote:http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2009/0302/1224242083966.html

Tenders for Metro North to be lower due to falling costs

FRANK McDONALD, Environment Editor

FOUR TENDERS for Metro North received by the Railway Procurement Agency (RPA) last Friday are likely to be substantially lower than anticipated because of an estimated 20 per cent fall in construction costs.


Why isn't this information in the public domain; estimated is simply not good enough the costs are either estimated or a formal offer. Basing 2004 costs of €4.58 billion with inflation of 4% p.a. for 4 years a figure of €5.36bn would result that is assuming RPI and not SCS construction costs which were much higher are adopted; discount 20% from 2008 figures and the costs would be €4.469bn.

A sum of money the country simply doesn't have to throw at a single unintegrated rail line nor does it have the €3.81bn that a 20% decline from 2004 costs would suggest.

The issuance of bland generalities has to stop and the actual consequences financially of a departing government potentially signing this off on their last day in office need to be clarified .

http://markets.ft.com/tearsheets/performance.asp?s=DJI:DJI
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Re: Metro North

Postby marmajam » Wed Mar 04, 2009 7:37 am

Well, you'd have to travel about 100 lengths of the metro route to find such a mangled concatenation of pretentious misinformed horsesh*te as is in this thread.
There's enough hot gas to make the thing a levitating train service.
Since MN will cost no real money until built (2015) and then is paid over 25 yrs the whole tedious pontificating waffling is rendered defunct.
Obviously people who need to be rescued from the fantasy world of the net and get out a bit.
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Re: Metro North

Postby layo » Wed Mar 04, 2009 3:58 pm

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/opinion/2009/0227/1224241892788.html

Anyone see this opinion letter in the Irish Times sometime last week by enda kenny? Absolutely shocking, he was ranting on about what he'd do if he were Taoiseach. He said that he'd immediately shelve Metro North as many current public infastructure projects that current government are going ahead with are going to further damage the economy under the current economic climate...almost makes Fianna Fail look attractive again, Kenny's a gob****e in my opinion. 7000 guaranteed jobs will be created in constructing the metro. Construction's going to last what? 5 years? we'll be out of the recession(hopefully) by then and with a much more effective public transport system in Dublin. Wasn't a major mistake in the last recession not investing more heavily in large public transport projects?
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Re: Metro North

Postby PVC King » Wed Mar 04, 2009 5:56 pm

marmajam wrote:Well, you'd have to travel about 100 lengths of the metro route to find such a mangled concatenation of pretentious misinformed horsesh*te as is in this thread.
There's enough hot gas to make the thing a levitating train service.
Since MN will cost no real money until built (2015) and then is paid over 25 yrs the whole tedious pontificating waffling is rendered defunct.
Obviously people who need to be rescued from the fantasy world of the net and get out a bit.



Fantasy was Anglo at €17

Please set out the cahsflow analysis of your funding model or disapear to one post wonderland

Billions it would cost millions will emigrate if it is sanctioned
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Re: Metro North

Postby reddy » Wed Mar 04, 2009 6:12 pm

layo wrote:http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/opinion/2009/0227/1224241892788.html

Anyone see this opinion letter in the Irish Times sometime last week by enda kenny? Absolutely shocking, he was ranting on about what he'd do if he were Taoiseach. He said that he'd immediately shelve Metro North as many current public infastructure projects that current government are going ahead with are going to further damage the economy under the current economic climate...almost makes Fianna Fail look attractive again, Kenny's a gob****e in my opinion. 7000 guaranteed jobs will be created in constructing the metro. Construction's going to last what? 5 years? we'll be out of the recession(hopefully) by then and with a much more effective public transport system in Dublin. Wasn't a major mistake in the last recession not investing more heavily in large public transport projects?


Totally agree that Kenny is a gombeen of the highest order - until a leader of real substance emerges from somewhere - I'd actually rather stick with B to the Iffo!!

On the subject of Metro North however, the challenge now is about getting bang for our buck. It is a good time to use public money (if it can be raised) to stimulate jobs, spending and liquidity in the economy but is a single, disconnected, not particularly impressive metro line really the way to go?

How many km of tram line could be laid for the same price? A recent trip to Oporto and to Bordeaux really brought it home to me how both these cities have been transformed by being riddled with new, interlinking trams which have priority at all points over traffic.

Just a thought as well - could anyone with some technical nous about this tell me is there any reason why buses and trams can't share the same lane? Just curious.
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Re: Metro North

Postby PVC King » Wed Mar 04, 2009 8:49 pm

reddy wrote:
On the subject of Metro North however, the challenge now is about getting bang for our buck. It is a good time to use public money (if it can be raised) to stimulate jobs, spending and liquidity in the economy but is a single, disconnected, not particularly impressive metro line really the way to go?


Keynsian economics would suggest go public projects such as undergrounds; however the Irish tax base was predicated on stamp duty and malahide tractor excise duty boom that instead of conforming with the cycle got boomier as proponents of Bush style idiology such as DICK Roche declared mass house ownership (whether afluent or sub-prime) a social duty and not an investment class.

There will not be a bounce in tax revenues on the far side of this due to the boom starting early 1990's on a tax base base of corporate and incomes taxes disintegrating into a tax base predicated on a ridiculous weighting of big ticket sales as the population sold each other houses and bought cars with the profits!

Bond markets wish to see a penitent government being disciplined and factoring in the worst whilst having the capacity to invest in education and training to be ready to absorb FDI when the corner is turned.

I agree with your synopsis on light rail; Settle will connect SEA-Tac airport via a glorified Luas later this year to downtown. The existing scenario is 30 minutes to Grafton St via a bus with leather seats which is a lot better than the Heathrow Express to Oxford Circus or HKG to IIC via train since the airport moved to Lan Tao.

A luas journey of say 25 mins would represent real progress and probably costs c€500m or €100m a year over each of the next 5 years which would stimulate local employment and reassure bond markets that the state is capable of delivering projects of a proportionate scale. A spur to the Northern Line would cost €100m - €150m and be intergrated.
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Re: Metro North

Postby layo » Thu Mar 05, 2009 12:08 am

PVC King wrote: A spur to the Northern Line would cost €100m - €150m and be intergrated.


I am so sick of people suggesting this option...Studies by IrishRail have advised the government that the option of a spur off the northern line (near Malahide) although cheaper is completely nonviable. This line (double track) is already used by DART, Commuter, Intercity and Enterprise services. The line capacity at the moment is already at its absolute limit. Bringing a hugely busy spur line to an already constricted bottle neck (Connolly st. to south of loop line bridge) would just be impossible unless massive engineering works were undertaken to 4 track the entire line to say Bray.

It is also annoying that people are still seeing the Metro North as a line that ONLY serves Dublin airport. Its main passenger base will be commuters from north county Dublin who have for years been poorly serviced by public transport. This is the main reason that it is being built and it is a very negative connotation to view the Metro as an airport only connection line.

I do believe though that the Interconnector heavy rail DART line is a much more important infastructure, and is obviously being viewed as such by the EU as it is receiving funding under the TEN-T 2009 programme. http://www.transport21.ie/Projects/Heavy_Rail/DART_Underground.html




http://www.railusers.ie
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Re: Metro North

Postby marmajam » Thu Mar 05, 2009 5:50 am

PVC King wrote:Fantasy was Anglo at €17

Please set out the cahsflow analysis of your funding model or disapear to one post wonderland

Billions it would cost millions will emigrate if it is sanctioned


always try bluffing like this when addressing your betters PVC?

all a bit too hard to figure out?
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Re: Metro North

Postby PVC King » Thu Mar 05, 2009 7:16 am

layo wrote:The line capacity at the moment is already at its absolute limit. Bringing a hugely busy spur line to an already constricted bottle neck (Connolly st. to south of loop line bridge) would just be impossible unless massive engineering works were undertaken to 4 track the entire line to say Bray.

It is also annoying that people are still seeing the Metro North as a line that ONLY serves Dublin airport. Its main passenger base will be commuters from north county Dublin who have for years been poorly serviced by public transport. This is the main reason that it is being built and it is a very negative connotation to view the Metro as an airport only connection line.

I do believe though that the Interconnector heavy rail DART line is a much more important infastructure, and is obviously being viewed as such by the EU as it is receiving funding under the TEN-T 2009 programme. http://www.transport21.ie/Projects/Heavy_Rail/DART_Underground.html

http://www.railusers.ie



As someone who was involved with Rail Users Ireland in their embryonic days I am up to speed with the costs and user levels of the various options.

The reason the Northern Line is at capacity is that there are a number of train types using the line at different speeds i.e. trains going non-stop to Drogheda, non-stop to Howth Junction or stopping at every station en route. Trains to Dublin airport could easily be accomodated if they ran non-stop to Howth Junction and then stopped only at Dublin Airport if they ran 2 minutes behind Trains running to either Drogheda or Howth Junction that didn't stop at each station.

Getting a connection to the City Centre from the airport is the objective not operating a train that becomes a Dart as soon as it hits trhe northern line; do people in Raheny have a god given right to a no-change route to the airport or do people in DCU have a similar right?

I also question your usage patterns on the North Commuter rail belt which excluding Swords is a series of quaint but small villages in the greater scheme of things. Look internationally there are very few international cities with a similar population to Dublin and none that I know of with similar development patterns that have ever spent this scale of expenditure on an underground rail link that wasn't a 5kms or less project interconnecting two irrationally split rail systems.

I would love to see each kilometer of the metro be analysed on cost benefit grounds and each station's projected passenger numbers as a proportion of the local population to see what contribution each station makes to operational revenues.
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Re: Metro North

Postby reddy » Thu Mar 05, 2009 9:53 am

layo wrote:It is also annoying that people are still seeing the Metro North as a line that ONLY serves Dublin airport. Its main passenger base will be commuters from north county Dublin who have for years been poorly serviced by public transport. This is the main reason that it is being built and it is a very negative connotation to view the Metro as an airport only connection line.


I'm not suggesting at all that Metro north is solely serving Dublin airport. I just believe its an unjustifiable expense for what is going to be provided.

With free falling land acquisition prices and tender costs, surely an above ground/ cut and cover system is a much more cost effective way of delivering high class infrastucture to a greater area of the city.
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