The Opera Centre

Re: The Opera Centre

Postby PoxyShamrock » Fri Jan 23, 2009 9:25 pm

Don't think anyone's mentioned this.

http://www.operacentre.ie

Has the floor plans.
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Re: The Opera Centre

Postby Paul Clerkin » Fri Jan 23, 2009 9:39 pm

gunter wrote:I know that Lubeck example didn't go down too well:rolleyes:, but here's an indisputably top-notch example of how to do this kind of thing from Nurnberg..



More on that here... lovely building in a nice little square
http://germany.archiseek.com/bavaria/nuremberg/design_museum.html
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Re: The Opera Centre

Postby Tuborg » Sun Jan 25, 2009 9:00 pm

Attached is a revised CGI of Rutland Street. The developers now intend to retain the 19th Century shopfront of the former Glynn's Butchers while also exposing and restoring the brickwork underneath the cement at first floor level.


ImageImageImage



Also, the doorway of the former Bruce Bank is to be incorporated into the remodelled shopfront of No.4 Rutland Street.


ImageImageImage

An elaborately carved limestone doorcase, dated 1806, displaying detailing of the Doric order. The quality of which is an indication of the grandeur of the original building to which this doorcase belongs. While the loss of the structure is regrettable the re-insertion of the doorcase is a pleasant feature on the streetscape. (NIAH)
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Re: The Opera Centre

Postby gunter » Mon Jan 26, 2009 2:27 am

Let me get this straight, Tuborg;

They're planning to take the elaborate Venetian doorcase belonging to the former Bruce Bank and stick it on no. 4!

What makes them think that the original simple limestone doorcase to no. 4 (matching that on the butchers) isn't hidden behind that pink and black plywood shopfront?

Image Image

Would it not be obscene if they ended up hacking out the original, early Georgian, doorcase of no. 4 and then replaced it by the later Georgian doorcase from two door up! . . . and passing this off as 'conservation gain'?

Image
The 'Bruce Bank' door.

I'm have a hard time believing that the 'Bruce Bank' doorcase is as late as 1806, but leaving that aside, it's precisely the early features, the simple door surrounds, the moulded cills and the window proportions, that make the Rutland Street and Bank Place houses so facinating.

Image Image Image
The two surviving door surrounds on Pank Place and the matching door from around the corner at no. 1 Rutland Street.
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Re: The Opera Centre

Postby vitruvius » Tue Jan 27, 2009 8:12 pm

Absolutey agree.
There are very few magnificent Georgian buildings in Limerick.
However, the lesser, quainter, simpler, cheaper buildings of the city are its very fabric - the canvas as it were. They set a tone of quiet sobriety and aspiration to an aesthetic completeness that is/ was very ambitious.

It would be a travesty to interfere with those buildings at Bank Place and Rutland st.
If you enter the city from the Clare (Killaloe) side - the city is pretty much the same as it was 200 years ago form Nicholas St. to Patrick st. (Sarsfield House, which I kinda like, aside) - St. Mary's cathedral, the courthouse, the old courthouse, the Matthew bridge, bank place, the granary, the custom house etc.

The corner of Bank Place is like a portal or a gateway into Rutland, Patrick, O'Connell st.
As such, it is very, very important to the look and feel of Limerick as a Georgian city.

As well as all that, the height of all of the surrounding buildings is set by this row of buildings.

IF ABP ok's their demolition - we'll have to stage a Hume St-esque sit in.
:eek:
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Re: The Opera Centre

Postby gunter » Wed Jan 28, 2009 12:41 am

vitruvius wrote:The corner of Bank Place is like a portal or a gateway into Rutland, Patrick, O'Connell st.
As such, it is very, very important to the look and feel of Limerick as a Georgian city.


Very much impressed with that part of town myself, and we're not the only ones, I came across this description by the American travel writer, J. Stirling Coyne, in his ''The Landscape and Antiquities of Ireland'' published in 1842:

[INDENT]''A more superb city-view can hardly be presented to the eye, than the range of buildings from the new bridge (Mathew Bridge) to the Crescent, a distance little short of an English mile, including Rutland Street, Patrick Street, George's Street, and the Tontine?''[/INDENT]

As a Dub, you'd think I'd get sick of Georgian terraces, but I have to say, the scale and relative completeness of Georgian Limerick has been a real eye-opener. For all it's UNESCO World Heritage Site status, I've always found Edinburgh's New Town (ok, apart from Charlotte Square) pretty provincial and disappointingly suburban, certainly now by comparison with Limerick. (If we can drag johnglas into this discussion I know he'll be more than happy to expand on Edinburrrrr's shortcomings;))

And again, as mentioned before, it's the relative completeness of the streetscape and the legibility in being able to read the cronological progression from the simple box fanlights of Rutland Street to the full-blown semi-circular fanlights up at the Crescent, that particularly delights.

Image
Rutland St. from Patrick St.

The two important neo-Georgians, either side of the angle are proposed to be replaced by a glass fronted retail window into the Opera Centre (posted by Tuborg above), as is the altered five storey this side of the old town hall. We can argue that the loss of chimney stacks, the crudeness of many of the shopfronts, and the unfortunate brickwork of the neo-Georgian in-fill schemes, have impaired the quality of the streetscape, but not fatally and not irreversibly.

The proposed 'Opera Centre' interventions seem to deliberately set out to interupt this rhythm! . . The larger breach, at the angle, is particularly damaging, IMO, in that it messes about with the angle in the streetscape and even appears to bridge over the footpath at the upper levels, introducing a third angle that crudely 'rounds' this perfectly successful and subtle junction.

Image

The second intervention takes out the (admittedly altered) five storey structure beside the old Town Hall and also engulfs the adjacent laneway. Again this seems to me to be an unecessarilly aggressive move when more subtle options appear to be available.

That councellor who strongly advocated the city centre merits of the 'Opera Centre', over it's out-of-town shopping centre rival is absolutely right, but surely not at any price. Urban regeneration that can't embrace conservation where it's merited is not worth having. and we shouldn't be talking about grudging, token, conservation either, but proper enthusiastic conservation.
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Re: The Opera Centre

Postby shanekeane » Wed Jan 28, 2009 4:13 am

xxxxxx
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Re: The Opera Centre

Postby Tuborg » Thu Jan 29, 2009 1:33 am

gunter wrote:Image

The second intervention takes out the (admittedly altered) five storey structure beside the old Town Hall and also engulfs the adjacent laneway. Again this seems to me to be an unecessarilly aggressive move when more subtle options appear to be available.



Strange building that. I remember seeing a picture of the Town Hall and surrounding buildings from the late 19th or early 20th Century showing the above building with a stuccoed facade.

The only image I could find on the city museum site is attached below and dates from around 1930 or so. You can just about see that some features such as the decorative window surrounds have been removed so Im guessing it was around this time that the facade was demolished and replaced with the current rather odd arrangement?

Original Image
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Re: The Opera Centre

Postby vitruvius » Thu Jan 29, 2009 8:12 pm

It's not beyond the bounds of imagination to conserve these buildings AND to add infill behind.
Anybody on here knows the Trinity science block, which abuts Westland Row?
The houses in Westland Row are nothing to write home about, BUT they are a continuous, unbroken, unadulterated row. The interstitium is filled with a glazed atrium which has access at various levels to the thoroughly modern, functional buildings behind.
The architects took the opinion that the new buildings would have a finite life, hence when in 15/20 years they have to be rebuilt, they can be, without damaging the fabric of the original buildings on Westland Row.

It'd certainly make for a nice shopping experience than some glass and marble, air conditioned, security-guard patrolled shopping centre.

Limerick City Council should adopt an attitude of what we have, we hold.
Although, having just learned that they voted to delist the boat club, these morons could do anything.
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Re: The Opera Centre

Postby gunter » Thu Feb 05, 2009 12:29 am

vitruvius wrote:It's not beyond the bounds of imagination to conserve these buildings AND to add infill behind.

It'd certainly make for a nice shopping experience (rather) than some glass and marble, air conditioned, security-guard patrolled shopping centre.


I agree with you there vitruvious, and I had thought that what you describe was the way that shopping centre design was heading. I thought we were moving away from enclosed malls into a new 'sheltered street' future.

Image
Slightly askew plan of the Opera Centre, with the few retained buildings in brown.

The published street montages and the blurb (most recently in the cover article in 'Built Environment' Jan/Feb. 09) argue that the cull of historic fabric, and neo-Georgian in-fiil, is all for the purpose of creating a vibrant, innovative, contemporary, 'Urban Mall', but The lay-out and the published images of the interior look anything but innovative, or vibrant.

Image
Published view across the Abbey River to Bank Place.

The internal 'mall' with the out-sized glazed entrance on the corner of Patrick St./Ellen St. doesn't even run all the way through to Bank Place! The big glass box from the images of Bank Place isn't the northern end of the 'mall' spilling out onto the 'sculpture garden overlooking the river', but instead is just a department store, or 'anchor tennant', that creates a cul-de-sac arrangement at the top of the 'mall'. This would make the Opera Centre even more reminiscent of the miserable 'Omni Centre' in Santry, than the miserable 'Crumlin Shopping Centre' in Drimnagh!

Not only that, but the surprisingly heavy roof design of the truncated 'mall' looks like something out of a grim futuristic prison movie!

Image Image

If you stand back and look at this scheme, the Opera Centre incorporates almost every bad idea from the last fifty years of urban regeneration:

[INDENT]Demolition of a entire 'Georgian' streetscape (the north side of Ellen Street).
Disembodied facade retention (Patrick Street & Rutland Street)
Reversal of 15 year old? 'Georgian' urban repair (Patrick Street & Rutland Street)
Aggressive (''bold'') architectural in-fill at ultra-sensitive locations (all street frontages)
The open invitation to misuse that is the fully glazed facade to multi-level retail space.
Out-dated enclosed cul-de-sac 'mall' typology instead of contemporay 'sheltered street' ideas.[/INDENT]

On the positive side, this is a great location and a progressive regeneration proposal here would, without question, have the potential to massively reinforce the commercial heart of city centre and re-focus this centre up at the Abbey River, which is the linchpin of the historic city.
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Re: The Opera Centre

Postby dc3 » Thu Feb 05, 2009 1:49 pm

I see suggestions in the Limerick press that, though the Opera Centre seems to be on hold, the "derelict" buildings thereon should now be demolished, as it ruins the look of the city.

(Hollow laugh anyone?)

....and be replaced by a
(temporary) car park (are you laughing yet?)

Seemingly, some person was "afraid" to walk by them.
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Re: The Opera Centre

Postby KeepAnEyeOnBob » Thu Feb 05, 2009 2:21 pm

dc3:

Same old same old then? Absolutely outrageous, as if the existing measures weren't unacceptable enough (the retailers should never have been moved out with so little concrete action in motion to redevelop the site).
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Re: The Opera Centre

Postby Tuborg » Thu Feb 05, 2009 10:20 pm

gunter wrote:I agree with you there vitruvious, and I had thought that what you describe was the way that shopping centre design was heading. I thought we were moving away from enclosed malls into a new 'sheltered street' future.

The internal 'mall' with the out-sized glazed entrance on the corner of Patrick St./Ellen St. doesn't even run all the way through to Bank Place! The big glass box from the images of Bank Place isn't the northern end of the 'mall' spilling out onto the 'sculpture garden overlooking the river', but instead is just a department store, or 'anchor tennant!



Gunter, I was slightly bemused to say the least when I had a look at the floor plans. Like you, I had assumed that the mall snaked its way through the complex from the Ellen Street entrance right through to the Bank Place "plaza area".

The developers have been making lots of noise about how the opera centre will provide "an attractive new pedestrian thoroughfare accessed through "two landmark entrances". What utter rubbish! The mall stops well short of Bank Place and ends as you say, at the entrance to the main anchor tenant. I cant believe the planners didnt ask for this to be amended!

This issue could easily be rectified by shifting the anchor unit down to the Ellen Street/Michael Street corner (seen in green below). They could then extend the mall through to Bank Place and split the space originally set aside for the anchor into smaller units.

Image

Altered Floor plan

This is just another flaw in what has been an absolutely shambolic attempt to put together a city centre shopping complex. I had a read through the architectural heritage assessment and also the response to concerns about the demolition of period buildings.

I dont think I've ever read a more pathetic attempt to justify the loss of historic building stock. For those of you who havent seen it, it basically uses a whole pile of a waffle in a desperate attempt to beef up an extremely weak argument, that the loss of the Ellen Street Georgians is essential in creating a vibrant streetscape!:confused: This tripe was supposedly written by a professional planning consultant.:o

Probably the best of the lot though, was the fact that they used the example of Cruise's Hotel as a precedent for the demolition of buildings of historical and architectural significance. I think everyone would agree, that was a horrible mistake!:(
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Re: The Opera Centre

Postby Fairy » Fri Feb 06, 2009 2:04 am

I wrote some time ago that the proposed Opera Centre would not start for at least another two years, if ever!. The Limerick Post 'front page' clarifys this, see views from Tony Connolly, Patrick Street, business man and the confirmation he received from City Hall. This is a continuing disgrace. What is going on? I call on on business persons in the detailed region to bin their demands for rates that may be due, and demand City Council knock the lot as Mr Connolly suggested . Yes open the area as a car park, or just board the lot up.. He is correct in saying the buildings are dangerous. So few of us 'LOOK UP', I suggest no-one should walk under No.5 Ellen St, as a serious gale/wind will bring down a beam that is at the moment. being supported by nothing other than a sticking plaster. It will mark my words, surly cause serious injury. In the last months the Fire Brigade have blocked the Street twice, (Ellen St,) four in all, with hatchets trying to gain entry to the boarded up premises (all in the early hours of the morning) this was all due to reported suspected fires being started in the buildings.by ??? who were burning mounds of paper in the buildings. I looked for media info on this, but there was none! How can the developers/Council get away with such apathy? IT IS a continuing disgrace, but then again, there is after all only a handful of us that give a damm about the affect this disgrace is affecting this lovly city. I believe if one had to walk through the old Town Hall one would not believe the distruction caused by Vandals. Mr Connolly thank you for your highlighting your genuine concerns.
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Re: The Opera Centre

Postby shanekeane » Fri Feb 06, 2009 12:27 pm

Fairy wrote:I wrote some time ago that the proposed Opera Centre would not start for at least another two years, if ever!. The Limerick Post 'front page' clarifys this, see views from Tony Connolly, Patrick Street, business man and the confirmation he received from City Hall. This is a continuing disgrace. What is going on? I call on on business persons in the detailed region to bin their demands for rates that may be due, and demand City Council knock the lot as Mr Connolly suggested . Yes open the area as a car park, or just board the lot up.. He is correct in saying the buildings are dangerous. So few of us 'LOOK UP', I suggest no-one should walk under No.5 Ellen St, as a serious gale/wind will bring down a beam that is at the moment. being supported by nothing other than a sticking plaster. It will mark my words, surly cause serious injury. In the last months the Fire Brigade have blocked the Street twice, (Ellen St,) four in all, with hatchets trying to gain entry to the boarded up premises (all in the early hours of the morning) this was all due to reported suspected fires being started in the buildings.by ??? who were burning mounds of paper in the buildings. I looked for media info on this, but there was none! How can the developers/Council get away with such apathy? IT IS a continuing disgrace, but then again, there is after all only a handful of us that give a damm about the affect this disgrace is affecting this lovly city. I believe if one had to walk through the old Town Hall one would not believe the distruction caused by Vandals. Mr Connolly thank you for your highlighting your genuine concerns.


What exactly do you want to knock down? All the Georgian buildings on Patrick Street, Rutland Street, and Ellen Street? And are you suggesting that a car park would not be an eyesore?
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Re: The Opera Centre

Postby Fairy » Sat Feb 07, 2009 2:55 pm

shanekeane wrote:What exactly do you want to knock down? All the Georgian buildings on Patrick Street, Rutland Street, and Ellen Street? And are you suggesting that a car park would not be an eyesore?


It is IMO evident that the Opera Cenre will not happen for some time - if ever. What will happen to the buildings during the long wait, they will deteriate beyond redemption or worse still fall down. No-one seems to care how businesses in the area are being effected by the total lack of concern these boarded up builidngs are having on them. Of course I don't want to see another eyesore such as a car park, but nothing other than a miracle will save the buildings on Rutland St, Patrick St, Ellen St, if they are to be kept as 'a shrine' for the next X amount of years, the developers should be made clean them up and make them safe. They cannot be left to the elements. What kind of lunacy was it to run people out of their businesses when in a sense, The Opera Centre was only a picture on a paper. Someone has to be held accountable, aesthetically the streets are a mess and regardless to whether the Centre will happen to-day or 10 years from now we should not have to feel ashamed when visitors on their way to the Hunt or KJC stop to take their pictures of the houses with trees growing out of them..
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Re: The Opera Centre

Postby dave123 » Fri Feb 13, 2009 4:01 am

Guys we need to come to a decision with this soon, it's holding the city back for either side

The boarded up georgain buildings been left there for another two years isn't going to help. The city does need a shopping mall. I'm not saying bulldose everything in it's path. But this project is restoring some of the georgion. You can't expect everything to be restored considering whats been built and also you have to take into consideration some of the buildings are beyond repair and it's getting more depressing to look at this stage. Its not logical to save everything, there has to be some compromise, as the old will not match the design and layout of a modern shopping mall of this scale. Let's be a little realistic.


Can I ask is there any postive changes since the new re submitted plan. The Entrance onto Patricks does look alot better than the first application. The shoppping mall layout is impressive and massive I have to say. Something I find hard to imagine Limerick city acutally having.

Every other city in Ireland has city centre shopping malls. And In fairness this one is by far more striking than the other's.
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Re: The Opera Centre

Postby dave123 » Fri Feb 13, 2009 4:04 am

Tuborg wrote:Cruse's Hotel



There is nothing spectacular about that building for the love of god.

The Cannoks building was impressive. There is little arctectural merit in that building other than its wihite. There are no striking features or anything authenitc about it.

If crusie's street was enhanced and turned into an all day market street with Cafes, hanging baskets and a few distinctive shops. I think Cruis'es street would work.

I think they need to focus on retailing on Williams streetBedford Row/O'Connells street/Henry street/Opera centrea areas
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Re: The Opera Centre

Postby Tuborg » Sat Feb 14, 2009 1:27 am

dave123 wrote:There is nothing spectacular about that building for the love of god.

The Cannoks building was impressive. There is little arctectural merit in that building other than its wihite. There are no striking features or anything authenitc about it.



No there was nothing authentic about a building that was a Limerick City landmark with 200 years of history behind it. We're far better off with a legoland shopping street that has become obsolete after only 16 years!:rolleyes:

Do you ever get tired of talking shit?
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Re: The Opera Centre

Postby Tuborg » Wed Feb 18, 2009 7:30 pm

Decision on Opera Centre is postponed (Limerick Leader)

A DECISION on the application for the €350m Opera Centre retail development in the city has now been postponed by two months.

An Bord Pleanala were due to come to a decision on the plans on Friday last, but have now set the date of April 9 next for a final decision of the revised plans.

Meanwhile, a three-day oral hearing on the expansion of the Crescent Shopping Centre will take place in County Hall from March 3.Its outcome will determine whether Marks & Spencer will open an outlet in the suburbs. Limerick City Council believes the final decision will be "crucial" for the development of the city centre, as the British chain have said they are hopeful of opening an outlet in the city centre also.

Until such time as a planning decision is made on both retail centres, a spokesperson for M&S said it couldn't determin where the larger outlet will be located.
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Re: The Opera Centre

Postby SuperCool » Mon Feb 23, 2009 1:28 pm

:rolleyes:


Another put back.

FFS.
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Re: The Opera Centre

Postby Tuborg » Wed Feb 25, 2009 10:20 pm

The Opera Centre debacle takes yet another comical twist!:rolleyes:


Mayor lashes out at An Bord Pleanala over Opera Centre delay

By Anne Sheridan

THE Mayor of Limerick John Gilligan has accused An Bord Pleanala of being "totally out of touch with reality" after it emerged that a decision on the €350m Opera Centre will not be made for at least another four months. Just last week the board had set April 9 as the decision date for the biggest retail development in the Mid-West, and one of the longest running in local history.

But they have now expressed "serious concerns" with the plans, and requested further revised drawings for 15 "historic" buildings along Rutland Street, Michael Street, Ellen Street and Patrick Street.

Mayor of Limerick John Gilligan said it amounts to "economic nonsense" that An Bord Pleanala are taking so long to come to a decision on the development, while investors are waiting to pump millions of euro into the city.

"I find it very disconcerting. The whole legislation has to change. Limerick City Council has to make a decision on a development within eight weeks, and An Bord Pleanala can sit on it for six, eight or twelve months. I think they're totally out of touch with reality and I've just lost faith in them," said the Mayor.

Limerick City Council is expected to lose in the region of €1million in rates over the next three years while dozens of retail units are left vacant.

But the developers have said once the centre is fully operational - which could be three years away if planning is granted - the losses in rates will be recouped in one year.

A spokesperson for An Bord Pleanala confirmed to the Limerick Leader that it now appears that a decision may not be made until June or July.

A further revision of the plans must be submitted by May 4, and if they are not submitted by that date the Bord can dismiss the appeal or determine an outcome without further notice.



I think its a shocking indictment of the shoddy standards in the planning office at City Hall that the board are now looking for more detailed plans. The city planners of course were only too happy to allow this development go through unaltered, with barely any consideration given to the irreparable damage that would be inflicted upon historic building stock!:rolleyes:

I wouldn't exactly have much sympathy for the loss of rates that the council are suffering, I'd be far more concerned about the battering the city centre's image is taking as a result of the vast swathe of neglected, boarded up buildings!

Of course if the council had their priorities right, they wouldn't have allowed this ridiculous situation to develop where tenants were ordered to vacate their premises years before any development took place!:mad:
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Re: The Opera Centre

Postby Fairy » Thu Feb 26, 2009 2:18 am

Tuborg wrote:The Opera Centre debacle takes yet another comical twist!:rolleyes:



I think its a shocking indictment of the shoddy standards in the planning office at City Hall that the board are now looking for more detailed plans. The city planners of course were only too happy to allow this development go through unaltered, with barely any consideration given to the irreparable damage that would be inflicted upon historic building stock!:rolleyes:

I wouldn't exactly have much sympathy for the loss of rates that the council are suffering, I'd be far more concerned about the battering the city centre's image is taking as a result of the vast swathe of neglected, boarded up buildings!

Of course if the council had their priorities right, they wouldn't have allowed this ridiculous situation to develop where tenants were ordered to vacate their premises years before any development took place!:mad:


My sentiments exactly. Madness to dispose/vacate of all the buildings on the premise of 'something on paper' ( read previous post) .Greedy people; now all business will/are suffering (including A.Q.) dare I even mention those on Rutland St, Patrick St, Ellen St etc Really, is this a joke,? ABP are playing a game! Is there anyone out there with an answer /brains to accommodate all the needs? I don't think so, and this forum is now just a 'lip service' for those who just wish to nose around (including most of all the insiders).

Can we win. Retain.Regain = don't think so.
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Re: The Opera Centre

Postby Fairy » Wed Mar 18, 2009 12:12 am

/////////////////
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Re: The Opera Centre

Postby CologneMike » Fri May 08, 2009 8:03 pm

Douglas Wallace Architects goes into liquidation

That’s not helpful . . . . :(
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