Vertigo? U2 tower to be taller

Re: Vertigo? U2 tower to be taller

Postby shanekeane » Tue Jan 27, 2009 3:32 am

Highrise wrote:I am not referring to the quality of the architecture in Canary Wharf, I am simply using this as an illustration to show how what can be done in a 10 year period, I could have used Dubai etc


Don't waste your breath. There's a lot of people on this site who seem to think that the big, fat, landfill which is the docklands of Dublin is some sort of UNESCO conservation area and who think that building anything more interesting than glass sheds in a CAPITAL CITY is somehow beneath the dignity of Dublin. They will pontificate at wearying length about the architectural shortcomings of highrise buildings in a way that they never would about the square miles of five storey rubbish which have blighted Dublin in the last twenty years, and without recognizing that, given what's there at the moment, the interest supplied by a cluster of skyscrapers would introduce some much needed dynamism to a dead tract of land, regardless of whether or not the architecture is per se significantly better than the current stock of buildings.
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Re: Vertigo? U2 tower to be taller

Postby spoil_sport » Tue Jan 27, 2009 10:24 am

I've said it before and I'll say it again, "interesting" does not make good, and yes, to suggest that something meerly "interesting" is good enough, is infact beneath the dignity of Dublin. I am not defending the shit in the docklands, but if you take a 6/7 standard issue, lowest common denominator, docklands style facade and extrude it another 20 stories, it will not really improve matters, the Docklands is not shit simply because it is not highrise, there are far more core and qualitive reasons. There is nothing wrong with highrise, with towers, Dublin has a tradition of towers and landmarks, church spires and domes closing vistas, the chimneys of Guinness, Liberty Hall, etc, I would welcome the U2 tower, albeit without the "U2" and perhaps not a Foster (although, there is strangley a nice balance that Dublin's most important buildings of the 18C, Customs House, Four Courts, were also designed by a Brit)
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Re: Vertigo? U2 tower to be taller

Postby gunter » Tue Jan 27, 2009 11:20 am

shanekeane wrote:. . . . pontificate . . .


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Frankfurt am Main, or 'Mainhattan' in zany German humour.

God, I don't necessarily see anything wrong in wanting what other people have, although I'm pretty sure that one or two of the commandments may have had something to say about it !

A lot of people agree with you that towers and spires have always been the ultimate urban must-have and that the docklands, in particular, would be greatly enlivened if it had a skyline.

. . . but, in the foreseeable future and as a strategy, building 'high rise' to deliver us out of dullness will be like trying to get a knee-jerk reaction out of a corpse.
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Re: Vertigo? U2 tower to be taller

Postby johnglas » Tue Jan 27, 2009 1:17 pm

...there is strangley a nice balance that Dublin's most important buildings of the 18C, Customs House, Four Courts, were also designed by a Brit


spoil-sport: Gandon a Brit! Wash your mouth out! Wasn't his father a Huguenot 'refugee'? So, they were used to travelling,as it were. Globalisation is nothing new (like much else).
The idea that the 'Brits' built the best bits of 18th and 19thC Dublin is just rubbish; the administration was Brit (there wasn't exactly a choice, although for a brief period 1782-1801 there was an 'independent' Irish legislature), but the taxes, the expenditure, the materials and the manpower (sic) that built them were Irish. Lose the cringe.
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Re: Vertigo? U2 tower to be taller

Postby spoil_sport » Tue Jan 27, 2009 1:56 pm

From "James Gandon and His Times", by Hugo Duffy:
"The distinguished architect whose life we now commence was bore in London on the 29th of Febuary, 1742"
But I'm sure you knew that, johnglas, I apologise if I have offended your sensibilities, but I do not have interest in, nor was not refering to the wider political implications, nor was I citing it as a negative thing. Regardless of who was or wasn't in power, or who was being repressed (and I am familiar with our own history), Gandon was born in England, therefore a British citizen, like Lord Foster, who, and there is little to argue with here, effectively built all the most important civic buildings of 18th C Dublin, ie those buildings of that period that represent Dublin on postcards, and aside from those few iconic examples, the majority of Dublin's finest building stock of the same period is British import, albeit tempered with some Irish sensibilities, and prior to that the Brits had probably imported or adapted that from somewhere else.
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Re: Vertigo? U2 tower to be taller

Postby johnglas » Tue Jan 27, 2009 10:34 pm

Ok spoil-sport: points all taken, but as a famous Irishman (allegedly) said: 'Because you are born in a stable, doesn't make you a horse'!
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Re: Vertigo? U2 tower to be taller

Postby tfarmer » Wed Jan 28, 2009 2:58 am

17 years of boom.... in dubai they build the burj tower, in dublin they build a large spike protruging out of the ground....never have anyone tell you we irish lack ambition..
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Re: Vertigo? U2 tower to be taller

Postby shanekeane » Wed Jan 28, 2009 4:00 am

spoil_sport wrote:I've said it before and I'll say it again, "interesting" does not make good, and yes, to suggest that something meerly "interesting" is good enough, is infact beneath the dignity of Dublin. I am not defending the shit in the docklands, but if you take a 6/7 standard issue, lowest common denominator, docklands style facade and extrude it another 20 stories, it will not really improve matters, the Docklands is not shit simply because it is not highrise, there are far more core and qualitive reasons. There is nothing wrong with highrise, with towers, Dublin has a tradition of towers and landmarks, church spires and domes closing vistas, the chimneys of Guinness, Liberty Hall, etc, I would welcome the U2 tower, albeit without the "U2" and perhaps not a Foster (although, there is strangley a nice balance that Dublin's most important buildings of the 18C, Customs House, Four Courts, were also designed by a Brit)


I disagree. In a city as architecturally boring as Dublin, interesting is good. Even if it does nothing else, at least some interesting architecture might shake things up a bit. If, instead of what was built there, the docklands took a risk on interesting and possibly bad, then I think it might be a lot better than dull and mediocre. And in a ridiculously conservative and increasingly drab city like Dublin, high rise is interesting.

A big problem is that Dubliners think that Dublin belongs to them. They don't want high rise in what a lot of small-minded locals think is still the little backwater that Dublin used to be. It doesn't belong to them. It belongs to the people of Ireland, just like Washington DC belongs to the people of America. And it has a responsibility to create a city which represents the ambition and imagination of Irish people as a whole. It has a responsibility to be a metropolis full of interest and culture of which we can all be proud. And that's why every little nimby who complains about high rise in Dublin should be ignored. Because it's not just about the high rise, it's about the attitude in general. They need to be SHUT UP, with an iron fist if necessary.
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Re: Vertigo? U2 tower to be taller

Postby spoil_sport » Wed Jan 28, 2009 4:42 am

"architecturally boring as Dublin"
Its no Venice or NYC, granted but we have already had this discussion, the architectural merits of Dublin unfortunately do not normally reveal thenmselves to those of short attention spans, most of its most interesting moments are hidden and subtle, and rely not on a single "landmark" building, but rather a wider composition, an appreciation of the city as a stage set. I would hope that the "ambition and imagination of irish people as a whole" deserves better than to be boiled down to an "interesting building", or pop culture, disposable architecture.
I really don't get you. You write something mildly profound; Dublin belongs ot the people, etc, OK, a bit too Barak Obama for my liking (Don't get me wrong, I love the guy, but there is only one) but I'll alow it, and then you go Michael O' Leary on it.

P.S: And for the record I'm not defending the shit that has been built in the docklands, I'm not anti-highrise and I'm not from Dublin.
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Re: Vertigo? U2 tower to be taller

Postby GrahamH » Wed Jan 28, 2009 10:40 am

Well put spoil_sport. And shanekeane, since when have 'the people of Ireland' ever shown ownership of Dublin? Aside from using it as a personal Monopoly board to carve up according to their own whims over the past 50 years, traditionally there has been close to zero interest in the city other than amongst those who live in it.

I suppose capitals worldwide tend to be the butt of jealousies and a certain degree of resentment, but we take it to a whole new level in this country. A little more lovin' from these peoples Dublin represents wouldn't go amiss before making pronouncements on its essential character.
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Re: Vertigo? U2 tower to be taller

Postby missarchi » Wed Jan 28, 2009 11:20 am

my whole theory is the Irish don't want to become involved in world war 3 by attracting attention with tall buildings.
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Re: Vertigo? U2 tower to be taller

Postby cgcsb » Wed Jan 28, 2009 1:14 pm

tfarmer wrote:17 years of boom.... in dubai they build the burj tower, in dublin they build a large spike protruging out of the ground....never have anyone tell you we irish lack ambition..


the workers who built Burj Dubai and all of their other towers are baisically slave labour. That's how they can build so quickly and with so little regard for site safety or what they demolish along the way. Have you been to Dubai recently? have you seen the shanty towns? the slums that surround the city, the UAE Govt. would prefere you didn't see them. I'd rather live in a country with no highrises than a country with no freedom
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Re: Vertigo? U2 tower to be taller

Postby tfarmer » Wed Jan 28, 2009 11:03 pm

cgcsb wrote:the workers who built Burj Dubai and all of their other towers are baisically slave labour. That's how they can build so quickly and with so little regard for site safety or what they demolish along the way. Have you been to Dubai recently? have you seen the shanty towns? the slums that surround the city, the UAE Govt. would prefere you didn't see them. I'd rather live in a country with no highrises than a country with no freedom




Oh come on now we have our fair share of urban slums here too in what is rapidly becoming a welfare society of 2 tiers, the super rich elite class and the 'slum dogs' to coin your phrase. Also freedom is a very all encompassing word don't you think?, we should trademark that word. I'm sure the people in UAE have had enough of hypocritical westerners telling them of 'freedom' meanwhile we show how greedy and corrupt we are with our unbridled greed, bailouts, economic collapse, creation of a welfare state and the top greedy exec's and ceo's resigning in droves with their millions. As the late great george carlin once said of western society, Your free, free to make s(((y small decisions like what cigarettes you can buy, what color car you can have, what magazine you can read, but beneath it all your still a slave to corporate capitalism, one with little to no power in the real decision making which runs your life. Freedom my arse..
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Re: Vertigo? U2 tower to be taller

Postby jdivision » Thu Jan 29, 2009 12:46 am

tfarmer wrote:Oh come on now we have our fair share of urban slums here too in what is rapidly becoming a welfare society of 2 tiers, the super rich elite class and the 'slum dogs' to coin your phrase. Also freedom is a very all encompassing word don't you think?, we should trademark that word. I'm sure the people in UAE have had enough of hypocritical westerners telling them of 'freedom' meanwhile we show how greedy and corrupt we are with our unbridled greed, bailouts, economic collapse, creation of a welfare state and the top greedy exec's and ceo's resigning in droves with their millions. As the late great george carlin once said of western society, Your free, free to make s(((y small decisions like what cigarettes you can buy, what color car you can have, what magazine you can read, but beneath it all your still a slave to corporate capitalism, one with little to no power in the real decision making which runs your life. Freedom my arse..


40c an hour, your passport taken away and only immigrant labour being treated like that is essentially slave labour tfarmer. The people of the UAE aren't treated like that. you're not perhance BostonorBerlin
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Re: Vertigo? U2 tower to be taller

Postby rob mc » Thu Jan 29, 2009 2:05 pm

tfarmer wrote:Oh come on now we have our fair share of urban slums here too in what is rapidly becoming a welfare society of 2 tiers, the super rich elite class and the 'slum dogs' to coin your phrase. Also freedom is a very all encompassing word don't you think?, we should trademark that word. I'm sure the people in UAE have had enough of hypocritical westerners telling them of 'freedom' meanwhile we show how greedy and corrupt we are with our unbridled greed, bailouts, economic collapse, creation of a welfare state and the top greedy exec's and ceo's resigning in droves with their millions. As the late great george carlin once said of western society, Your free, free to make s(((y small decisions like what cigarettes you can buy, what color car you can have, what magazine you can read, but beneath it all your still a slave to corporate capitalism, one with little to no power in the real decision making which runs your life. Freedom my arse..


Oh come its a bit different, half the population may live in 60 story skyscrapers but the rest live in shanty towns.And the worst "urban slums" as you say, in Ireland wouldn't compare to how terrible the conditions are for these people.

These shieks have so much money that they have nothing else to do but build a theme park, for themselves and for there rich friends. So lets quit comparing Ireland, a country that actualy has to consider its people in its decisions, to Dubai a country driven by slave labour and SHIT loads of money.
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Re: Vertigo? U2 tower to be taller

Postby cgcsb » Thu Jan 29, 2009 2:15 pm

tfarmer wrote:Oh come on now we have our fair share of urban slums here too in what is rapidly becoming a welfare society of 2 tiers, the super rich elite class and the 'slum dogs' to coin your phrase.


Irish 'slums' have heating, electricity, a front door etc, Middle eastern slums are tin huts.

tfarmer wrote:Also freedom is a very all encompassing word don't you think?, we should trademark that word. I'm sure the people in UAE have had enough of hypocritical westerners telling them of 'freedom' meanwhile we show how greedy and corrupt we are with our unbridled greed, bailouts, economic collapse, creation of a welfare state and the top greedy exec's and ceo's resigning in droves with their millions. As the late great george carlin once said of western society, Your free, free to make s(((y small decisions like what cigarettes you can buy, what color car you can have, what magazine you can read, but beneath it all your still a slave to corporate capitalism, one with little to no power in the real decision making which runs your life. Freedom my arse..


Spoken like a true hippie, if you feel like your a slave to greedy corporations, try living in Dubai where greedy corporations literaly have slaves working on building sites for almost no money. Also Women are property and cannot vote, homosexuals get the death penalty, sex outside of marriage is a federal crime (14 years in prison) and inmagrants are not protected under the law and suffer intimidation by police. Alas I don't think that is a country that we should look up to in any respect.
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Re: Vertigo? U2 tower to be taller

Postby tfarmer » Sat Jan 31, 2009 3:47 am

cgcsb wrote:Irish 'slums' have heating, electricity, a front door etc, Middle eastern slums are tin huts.



Spoken like a true hippie, if you feel like your a slave to greedy corporations, try living in Dubai where greedy corporations literaly have slaves working on building sites for almost no money. Also Women are property and cannot vote, homosexuals get the death penalty, sex outside of marriage is a federal crime (14 years in prison) and inmagrants are not protected under the law and suffer intimidation by police. Alas I don't think that is a country that we should look up to in any respect.



Spoken like a true hippie? what is that supposed to mean? So anyone who has an opinion which differs from you is a hippie? You must great fun at social gatherings.

Here we go with the women can't vote or drive and they chop heads and hands off and they are out to get you etc... too much fox news you've been watching there, me thinks. Lived over in the UAE for years so your preaching to the choir. I always notice the most ignorant misinformed people are the people that never travel and experience other cultures and countries. They have a paranoid and aggressive tone about other countries and state with certainty their knowledge of that country. Such imo is the folly of an ignorant and truely uniformed mind.

This country you are speaking of, you must be confusing it with iraq. Don't always rely on wikipedia for your facts, thats the best advice i can give you. You know they have the death penalty in the usa too. . And you know the capital punishment thing not such a bad idea, they get very little crime and people running around in gangs shooting other gangs to death in mid day traffic like over here. Put a poll to the irish about capital punishment to criminals and see what reaction you'd get.

And even if it was happening that is their religion over there you know, they have a right to do anything they want, just as you have a right to choose your religion and what government rules you. Comparing Ireland and the UAE in terms of culture in relation to architecture is a mute point.

The slave trade has operated in the middle east for centuries. Its part of their culture much as the caste system is part of the culture of the subcontinent of india. And we are all slaves including you. This is the point im making. You are a slave to corporations. The entire western world is. Its just european arrogance that makes you think that you are somehow free, something special, above others in other parts of the world, that because you abandoned capital punishment and you let women drive you are 'morally superior'. Sure it's obvious by the tone of your posts thats the way you think.

Maybe the current economic collapse will sort a few things out for you and make you see the reality of the entire western capitalist system and how its just modern serfdom, with it's ever shrinking middle class and the superrich and powerful who control them. So what you'll end up with is an elite and a lower class.

Sure you get to choose what car, what color ipod you get to choose what magazine you can buy, but you are living under the control of the corporate masters and financiers who run everything and dictate everything. Everything is a distraction to keep you asleep. Western societies are crime ridden,plauged with social problems, there is no sense of community or family values and now economic collapse is coming. If what happened in Iceland or Greece recently doesn't register with your subconscious then your in for a surprise.


You need to fill out paperwork just to take a s&& nowadays. Orweillian indeed. What could be more corrupt then the international bankers who destroy an entire financial system then spend the bailout money given by taxpayers to pay themselves and their minions off. You really think your in safe hands? They're coming for your savings and pensions next, watch for it,soon as the next round of bailouts fail yet again. Your not free, you never were, capitalism is the perfect socialist agenda in play. It gives you the illusion your free, that you have choice and judging from most people they fall for it hook line and sinker. Throw them a few bones here and there and they're happy.

At least in the middle east they do these things out in the open and let you see who they are

ponder on that.
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Re: Vertigo? U2 tower to be taller

Postby ctesiphon » Sat Jan 31, 2009 10:30 am

tfarmer wrote:And we are all slaves including you. This is the point im making.
...
Everything is a distraction to keep you asleep.
...
It gives you the illusion your free, that you have choice and judging from most people they fall for it hook line and sinker.
...
ponder on that.


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Remember that all I am offering is the truth. Nothing more.
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Re: Vertigo? U2 tower to be taller

Postby shanekeane » Sat Jan 31, 2009 11:56 am

So, in that case, what is freedom?
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Re: Vertigo? U2 tower to be taller

Postby spoil_sport » Sat Jan 31, 2009 12:07 pm

"The slave trade has operated in the middle east for centuries. Its part of their culture..."
And that makes it ok? Britain could claim the slave trade was part of its culture for centuries too.

"You are a slave to corporations"
That's hippie speak if ever I heard it... Of course the "corporations" are in control, you say that like you are trying to teach us something, like you are the first person to discover it, like you have just figured out all for yourself that santa isn't real and your trying to convince all the grown ups of the huge conspiracy. Of course the corporations are in control, if they wern't who would be? Its a simple concept called hierarchy, check it out, its been around for some time now. The historical equilivent is religion, it told people how to live, how to be better people, what they should wear, what they can and can't say. It is the basic organising principal of society, it's what kept society together, its what led them into wars against other variations of the same theme. And yes unfortunately, some people are better than others, some people are faster, some are smarter, there is, by natural selection, no such thing as equality. But in the western world, religion is redundant (massive generalisation, granted) so someone has to take control; the corporations tell me what is cool to wear, what is cool to say, what is cool to have or have-not. OK, so we take down the corporations, then what?

But the relevance of all this to the U2 tower being made taller is?
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Re: Vertigo? U2 tower to be taller

Postby constat » Sat Jan 31, 2009 7:11 pm

spoil_sport wrote:"The slave trade has operated in the middle east for centuries. Its part of their culture..."
And that makes it ok? Britain could claim the slave trade was part of its culture for centuries too.

"You are a slave to corporations"
That's hippie speak if ever I heard it... Of course the "corporations" are in control, you say that like you are trying to teach us something, like you are the first person to discover it, like you have just figured out all for yourself that santa isn't real and your trying to convince all the grown ups of the huge conspiracy. Of course the corporations are in control, if they wern't who would be? Its a simple concept called hierarchy, check it out, its been around for some time now. The historical equilivent is religion, it told people how to live, how to be better people, what they should wear, what they can and can't say. It is the basic organising principal of society, it's what kept society together, its what led them into wars against other variations of the same theme. And yes unfortunately, some people are better than others, some people are faster, some are smarter, there is, by natural selection, no such thing as equality. But in the western world, religion is redundant (massive generalisation, granted) so someone has to take control; the corporations tell me what is cool to wear, what is cool to say, what is cool to have or have-not. OK, so we take down the corporations, then what?

But the relevance of all this to the U2 tower being made taller is?



Bravo!!
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Re: Vertigo? U2 tower to be taller

Postby fergalr » Sat Jan 31, 2009 7:28 pm

Has Archiseek been taken over by Indymedia..? :confused:
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Re: Vertigo? U2 tower to be taller

Postby hutton » Sat Jan 31, 2009 10:52 pm

fergalr wrote:Has Archiseek been taken over by Indymedia..? :confused:


Splitter! :mad:
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Re: Vertigo? U2 tower to be taller

Postby MD199 » Mon Feb 09, 2009 2:59 pm

I wouldn't be surprised if this was the subject of another tribunal, along with Landsdowne Road. Up until now, there has not been anyone willing to call up the relevant authorities on the blatant conflicts of interest on both these projects in the appointment of the advisors and the preferred bidders. I reckon now that there is little or no good reason for people to try and stay on the "good" side of these "authorities" that people will start to question the decisions made. Clear and unambiguous conflicts existed in both cases, and would have been questionable at the very least under European Competition laws. The problem was that no one wanted to be the whistle blower. Now that the bid fees invovled could solve some issues for some of the unsuccessful bidders (circa €1-2m per bid), they might pursue them for this.
I personally would encourage an enquiry into the practices of the DDDA. They were established as an authority to serve the people of Dublin and in particular the environs of the Docklands. Whilst there has been great development in the area made possible by the establishment of the DDDA and the masterplan model in place, there have been questionable levels of competance shown in the delivery of the design competitions run, and in the bending of their own rules in order to suit their own purposes (Liam Carroll's planning that was recently ruled to be outside the DDDA's authority to grant).
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Re: Vertigo? U2 tower to be taller

Postby jdivision » Tue Feb 10, 2009 11:31 am

DDDA travel expenses and board fees cost €530,000

Former Anglo Irish Bank executives among those to benefit
The Dublin Docklands Development Authority (DDDA) racked up more than €530,000 on travel expenses for executives, board members and staff, together with fees for board members, between 2006 and 2008.

http://www.tribune.ie/business/article/2009/feb/08/ddda-travel-expenses-and-board-fees-cost-530000/
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