Eglinton Street Tower, Cork

Re: Eglinton Street Tower, Cork

Postby shanekeane » Thu Dec 11, 2008 8:23 pm

phatman wrote:Wow. Bet you're one of these people who'd be all for tearing down half the city centre and replacing it with shoddy apartment blocks. What about the character and history? With the exception of parts of North Main Street and the likes, Cork is anything but grey and ugly. And I wouldn't even consider comparing the Elysian with the city centre 'in general'...


Hmm, I don't mean to be offensive, but I do disagree. I think Cork has some nice little lanes, and I like the South Mall because it's the only street in the city that looks like a city rather than a town. I think Patrick Street is a failed project, full of dirty and decrepit looking buildings. MacCurtain Street looks like it's straight out of the 70s. Washington Street is just a bunch of warehouses, and the Grand Parade is another failed project full of clutter and totally lifeless in the lower half. The quays are mind-numbingly ugly from Patrick Street right down to the bus station and beyond, on both sides. And the surrounding hills, areas like Shandon etc., are full of those old plastered grey buildings which depress the hell out of me. The big problem with Cork, like most Irish towns and cities, is the lack of attention to detail. There are some nice old buildings that are dirty, or badly kept etc. The paving stones on Patrick Street and Grand Parade are ugly and depressing. They should have used the golden French limestone paving stones they're using in Limerick.

Cork has great potential. If they made an effort to orient the city towards the rivers, and to replace the ugly warehouse-type structures along it. I certainly don't think, as you suggest, that historical buildings should be torn down. Cork is pretty unlucky in having very few really interesting historical buildings like Limerick or Dublin, but it should at least make an effort to properly preserve and clean the ones that it has, and pay attention to tiny details. And since outside of the very centre there's widespread decrepitude and degradation, I don't see a problem with knocking down tottering old buildings and constructing some tall ones like the Elysian.
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Re: Eglinton Street Tower, Cork

Postby Pug » Fri Dec 12, 2008 12:01 pm

there are some appalling buildings in cork but there are some nice ones too. The widening of Pana and the Grand Parade is really nice i think and the sooner the cars are hunted out of the middle the better but theres no where for them to go at the moment. I think the bus station should be moved out of there and should be a little hub from the railway station where the buses should be based. I dont know why the Elysian balconies face the south link road instead of east/west but there you go. The golden opportunity is the docklands but lets face it, without private investment nothing will happen. Maybe planners should lean more on developers in terms of what building designs should be but its all subjective opinion. I mean, the city architects supposedly favourite buildings are the yellow brick vileness out in Victoria cross. What a wasted opportunity for a beautiful landmark area.

Neither is there anything straightforward about the planning process when a planning official can be completely over ruled by a senior planning official and Bord pleanala can ignore their own inspectors and rule in a completely opposite manner.

Some of the newer stuff is nice but its private individuals that own the buildings and its hard for city officials to be able to put the pressure on them in terms of design.
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Re: Eglinton Street Tower, Cork

Postby who_me » Fri Dec 12, 2008 4:22 pm

I'm not really sure what's the benefit of moving the bus station, I'd have thought it's far better to have the bus hub close to the city centre; rather than having people walking/taking the bus to the train station only to get on another bus there.
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Re: Eglinton Street Tower, Cork

Postby who_me » Fri Dec 12, 2008 4:28 pm

shanekeane wrote:Hmm, I don't mean to be offensive, but I do disagree. I think Cork has some nice little lanes, and I like the South Mall because it's the only street in the city that looks like a city rather than a town. I think Patrick Street is a failed project, full of dirty and decrepit looking buildings. MacCurtain Street looks like it's straight out of the 70s. Washington Street is just a bunch of warehouses, and the Grand Parade is another failed project full of clutter and totally lifeless in the lower half. The quays are mind-numbingly ugly from Patrick Street right down to the bus station and beyond, on both sides. And the surrounding hills, areas like Shandon etc., are full of those old plastered grey buildings which depress the hell out of me. The big problem with Cork, like most Irish towns and cities, is the lack of attention to detail. There are some nice old buildings that are dirty, or badly kept etc. The paving stones on Patrick Street and Grand Parade are ugly and depressing. They should have used the golden French limestone paving stones they're using in Limerick.


That's a rather narrow view - it only looks good if it looks like other city streets are supposed to look?

I believe it's the narrow streets and low, old style buildings which give Cork its charm. Most cities of the world would give their eye-teeth to be described as "like a small town".

I do agree wholeheartedly about the condition of many buildings though; there are far, far too many buildings in the city centre in a very poor state of repair. Look at the library, the top several feet of it are black!
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Re: Eglinton Street Tower, Cork

Postby who_me » Fri Dec 12, 2008 4:31 pm

tfarmer wrote:thats a landmark tower??


By Irish standards, yes, it is.
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Re: Eglinton Street Tower, Cork

Postby Pug » Fri Dec 12, 2008 4:51 pm

who_me wrote:I'm not really sure what's the benefit of moving the bus station, I'd have thought it's far better to have the bus hub close to the city centre; rather than having people walking/taking the bus to the train station only to get on another bus there.


i see your point but i suppose i am referring to having the express coaches pulling out on to the roads where its currently located. Thats an excellent site that could be doing more for the city than a bus station. A fleet of little shuttle buses all around the city that would take you to places like train/bus, airport etc could be done then.
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Re: Eglinton Street Tower, Cork

Postby shanekeane » Fri Dec 12, 2008 7:02 pm

xxxx
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Re: Eglinton Street Tower, Cork

Postby venividi » Tue Dec 16, 2008 11:45 am

Pug wrote:i see your point but i suppose i am referring to having the express coaches pulling out on to the roads where its currently located. Thats an excellent site that could be doing more for the city than a bus station. A fleet of little shuttle buses all around the city that would take you to places like train/bus, airport etc could be done then.


I'm sorry, but you probably drive yourself, don't use buses? Can you give an example what could be so beneficial for the city in the bus station site?
What you propose is creating trouble for many people for a reason which remains unknown. Plenty of people actually go to work from bus station, what you propose is to make them dependant of two unreliable buses in one direction instead of one.

Also, "fleet of shuttle buses" sounds great, but do you know how bad the actual "fleet of buses" in Cork works?
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Re: Eglinton Street Tower, Cork

Postby Saucy Jack » Tue Dec 16, 2008 1:01 pm

shanekeane wrote:Hmm, I don't mean to be offensive, but I do disagree. I think Cork has some nice little lanes, and I like the South Mall because it's the only street in the city that looks like a city rather than a town. I think Patrick Street is a failed project, full of dirty and decrepit looking buildings. MacCurtain Street looks like it's straight out of the 70s. Washington Street is just a bunch of warehouses, and the Grand Parade is another failed project full of clutter and totally lifeless in the lower half. The quays are mind-numbingly ugly from Patrick Street right down to the bus station and beyond, on both sides. And the surrounding hills, areas like Shandon etc., are full of those old plastered grey buildings which depress the hell out of me. The big problem with Cork, like most Irish towns and cities, is the lack of attention to detail. There are some nice old buildings that are dirty, or badly kept etc. The paving stones on Patrick Street and Grand Parade are ugly and depressing. They should have used the golden French limestone paving stones they're using in Limerick.

Cork has great potential. If they made an effort to orient the city towards the rivers, and to replace the ugly warehouse-type structures along it. I certainly don't think, as you suggest, that historical buildings should be torn down. Cork is pretty unlucky in having very few really interesting historical buildings like Limerick or Dublin, but it should at least make an effort to properly preserve and clean the ones that it has, and pay attention to tiny details. And since outside of the very centre there's widespread decrepitude and degradation, I don't see a problem with knocking down tottering old buildings and constructing some tall ones like the Elysian.


Cork has a fantastic island core with great narrow streets and lanes,river frontage,bridges and above all else excellent topography.

The City has some unique architectural character that Dublin can only dream of.

Loook at Prague,Budapest & Paris - outside their cores are plenty of grey housing and high rise.
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Re: Eglinton Street Tower, Cork

Postby venividi » Tue Dec 16, 2008 1:17 pm

[quote="Saucy Jack"]Cork has a fantastic island core with great narrow streets and lanes,river frontage,bridges and above all else excellent topography.
QUOTE]

What you said is of course true, but: plenty of those narrow streets and lanes are in terrible condition right now, most of river frontages are a wasted chance and topography doesn't determine whether city fabric is good or not.
As shanekeane said above: Cork has a great potential.
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Re: Eglinton Street Tower, Cork

Postby shanekeane » Tue Dec 16, 2008 8:04 pm

Saucy Jack wrote:Cork has a fantastic island core with great narrow streets and lanes,river frontage,bridges and above all else excellent topography.

The City has some unique architectural character that Dublin can only dream of.

Loook at Prague,Budapest & Paris - outside their cores are plenty of grey housing and high rise.


You're like one of those men who become obsessed by an ugly woman and nobody else can understand what they see in her. To compare Cork to Prague, Budapest and Paris is more than slightly ridiculous. My point is not that there isn't a small amount of character, but that it's all very badly kept. And the quays in Cork are completely ugly for most of their length.
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Re: Eglinton Street Tower, Cork

Postby shanekeane » Tue Dec 16, 2008 8:07 pm

Some of Cork's magnificent riverside:

Image

Image

Image

Image
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Re: Eglinton Street Tower, Cork

Postby Leesider » Tue Dec 16, 2008 9:54 pm

Maybe these ones of the river are bit better. I do agree that Cork has a lot to do to become a more attractive city but there have been major improvements and these photos of the river might show it in a bit of a better light!!
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Re: Eglinton Street Tower, Cork

Postby opus » Wed Dec 17, 2008 12:05 am

Few more photo's showing Cork's better side....
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Re: Eglinton Street Tower, Cork

Postby shanekeane » Wed Dec 17, 2008 12:09 am

I don't deny that it has some nice parts too, but the problem is consistency and attention to detail. Too often in Ireland we have pretty or even beautiful buildings undermined by their proximity to rubbish.
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Re: Eglinton Street Tower, Cork

Postby sovereign12 » Wed Dec 17, 2008 5:01 am

With regard to the above discussion I have to share my opinion, Cork with out a doubt has its faults as does every town and city in this country but I must admit after looking at the above links and after taking a good walk around my city it has so much character and history and life in it unlike larger cities such as Dublin and I lived in Dublin for a good period of time and to be honest in this day and age its no different to any big urban area (not city) it lacks the character it once had, it has nothing that makes it internationally recognised and I don't mean that offencivly but the pride we have in our city (cork), despit its faults is unprecidented on this island so please lets stop knocking it and move on to the topic this forum was created for.
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Re: Eglinton Street Tower, Cork

Postby Saucy Jack » Wed Dec 17, 2008 8:39 am

shanekeane wrote:You're like one of those men who become obsessed by an ugly woman and nobody else can understand what they see in her. To compare Cork to Prague, Budapest and Paris is more than slightly ridiculous. My point is not that there isn't a small amount of character, but that it's all very badly kept. And the quays in Cork are completely ugly for most of their length.


No where did I directly compare Cork with Paris,Prague & Budapest ?

My point is that those 3 cities have 3 interesting central cores with plenty of cheap grey housing outside.

Walk down the North Mall,The Mardyke,The Marina,Georges Quay,Sullivans Quay,Lapps Quay,Union Quay.Posting 3 poor examples is a cheap shot especially as the Beamish complex will be up for re-development very soon.

As a Dub who is now living in Cork for 11 years I have explored every road and lane of the city centre and it has a whole lot more character than Dublin which resembles a provincial English City in parts with all o f the hasles of a big city and very few of the conveniences.Cork has Kinsale and the coast less than 30 minutes away.I can take the kids to the beach on a summer evening easily or stroll around a quaint city centre uncluttered by endless UK multiples.

Its easy to focus on the negatives of any city but to me Cork feels continental,almost a French feel to it,an identity all of its own,facing south and not bothered but tastes of fashions temporary styles.
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Re: Eglinton Street Tower, Cork

Postby Pug » Wed Dec 17, 2008 10:36 am

venividi wrote:I'm sorry, but you probably drive yourself, don't use buses? Can you give an example what could be so beneficial for the city in the bus station site?
What you propose is creating trouble for many people for a reason which remains unknown. Plenty of people actually go to work from bus station, what you propose is to make them dependant of two unreliable buses in one direction instead of one.

Also, "fleet of shuttle buses" sounds great, but do you know how bad the actual "fleet of buses" in Cork works?


First of all, relax.

Now, to answer. Yes I do drive simply because I cant rely on the bus a) to actually turn up and b) turn up on time. The transport in Cork and Ireland in general compared to Europe and the rest of the planet is utterly utterly dismal.

Prior to a recession, i would have thought that site was a pivotal link from merchants quay to parnell place and could have had either retail/office paying rent to CIE, i.e. the state earning money off of one of their sites from rental income, while having a smaller bus hub there as well. Irish Rail need to be CPO'd for negligence and at the height of the boolm, could have had the Horgans Quay site developed, with the intercity buses going from there. The way they pull out on the main road at the current station is a bit mad and the fact that the direction of the road on one side by the former animals home goes away from the direction they want to go and the other leads onto merchants quay, the middle of the city i.e. traffic, means it isnt efficient. I have seen many other cities with bus stations in/near city centres but they are hubs for rail as well and have been designed efficiently to get transport in and out as quickly as possible.

I take your point that people arriving there to walk into work would probably find that easier than getting two buses and it might also be a pain to get a bus to one place and then hop on another smaller one to get into the city centre, but as i said, leave a smaller bus hub there, do a review to see if routes can be made more efficient. i'm open to debate. lets just improve what we have now.

I dont understand your last point, but what i mean is, given that cars are being squeezed out of the middle of the city (quite rightly to make it better to walk around), those little imp buses that were in dublin might be handy to be allowed zip around and drop people off to bus station, rail, airport, park and rides at the edge of the city, docklands, maybe some hotels (another money earner for the city - get the hotels to pay) and some of them then in the summer for the major tourist traps.

There is a transport study being done at the moment. I cant be too far off anyway, the hub at Horgans quay is being proposed for the Docklands.
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Re: Eglinton Street Tower, Cork

Postby venividi » Thu Dec 18, 2008 1:15 pm

Pug, I'm sorry if I sounded aggressive, I didn't intend to.

I have to agree with you on the fact that Cork bus station is just too small to be really efficient, buses are parking and manoeuvring in crazy way. It would make sense to combine a more spacious bus station with a rail station, it would also be an architectural opportunity (an amazing bus/train/subway station in Valencia by Calatrava comes to mind). But.
Cork is a small town and it seems appropriate to have buses coming into the very middle of it, especially the local ones. Then, to throw out only intercity buses? It seems odd to have two bus stations in such a small town, it would only cause a lot of confusion.

Also,the bus station is a public space of a sort in the centre of town and in my opinion Cork really lucks public spaces (no town square, not even a plaza nowhere to be found) and to replace it with another retail/office/whatever would be just sad. Ugly as it is, it's a place where tourists, people going to work and Corkonions mix and interact.

And I'm just very very doubtful about efficiency of any "fleet of minibuses" in Ireland - to use your words: "The transport in Cork and Ireland in general compared to Europe and the rest of the planet is utterly utterly dismal."
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Re: Eglinton Street Tower, Cork

Postby Pug » Thu Dec 18, 2008 1:33 pm

aha, we're some way in agreement, put it this way, in the space of a couple of posts i reckon we have talked more about the transport and buses policy in cork than the department of transport has in a long time.

You're right in that it would have to be looked at but its just a personal opinion that the current station is inefficient for the intercity express buses. I agree with you that there should be some sort of public space there alright, it would be nice that side of the city if people were waiting on the small buses. Expand the building on the site, put in some sort of public space/park, then rent out some of the space so the state earns money from its site, increase the height (the precedent is now set with an 8 storey office block going up right next to the station), dump the intercity buses out of there where possible

The key to the small little buses zipping around the place is to first get more cars out of the city and b) the absolute key. Dont let the state run it ( why? ask CIE and Bus Eireann why they are having to be rationalised and all their fares put up).
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Re: Eglinton Street Tower, Cork

Postby TooMuchFreeTime » Thu Dec 18, 2008 8:04 pm

Hey just reading your talk on transport and posted a reply on the transport tread if you interested. sorry would have posted it here only i though it would be better suited to the transport tread.:)

http://www.archiseek.com/content/showthread.php?t=5046&page=41
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Re: Eglinton Street Tower, Cork

Postby sovereign12 » Wed Jan 07, 2009 2:48 pm

Was passing the elysian this morning and noticed a large unit at the back of the building on the albert street side by the traffic lights is being fitted out to be occupied and also I noticed a few appartments in the tower are light up at night and appear to be occupied. Does anybody have any info as to weather people are already moving in? I was under the impression this building was a white elephant.
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Re: Eglinton Street Tower, Cork

Postby Saucy Jack » Wed Jan 07, 2009 3:03 pm

sovereign12 wrote:Was passing the elysian this morning and noticed a large unit at the back of the building on the albert street side by the traffic lights is being fitted out to be occupied and also I noticed a few appartments in the tower are light up at night and appear to be occupied. Does anybody have any info as to weather people are already moving in? I was under the impression this building was a white elephant.


Some Bank has taken that unit AFAIK. ACC ?

A couple of apartments have been sold allright but then again The Empire State was launched during the great depression and they had to leave the lights on at night to make it seem more attractive.
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Re: Eglinton Street Tower, Cork

Postby Pug » Wed Jan 07, 2009 3:31 pm

think ACC are taking that unit
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Re: Eglinton Street Tower, Cork

Postby opus » Wed Jan 07, 2009 6:52 pm

I read on another forum that ACC also provided the funding for the building to start with.
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