grangegorman allocated 262 million

Re: grangegorman allocated 262 million

Postby notjim » Sun Sep 07, 2008 9:12 pm

I don't want to go off topic which is the Grangegorman plan and I think gunter has summed up it advantages, it takes what is successful about the traditional university model and expresses it in a modern way. I do believe TCD and DIT and NCAD should be merged inside the University of Dublin because it would help give an Irish university sufficient scale, it is good to have national competition, and that wouldn't change, but the competition for the best students and the best researchers isn't a national one, it is international.

Furthermore, it would be great to attack this dumb, and false, bimodal distinction between the ITs and the Universities, there isn't a natural two way split, the different third level institutions are much more different from each other than this habit of dividing them into two groups implies, first, and second, while there might be some purpose in separating strictly regional institutions from national ones, there is no real point in separating vocational and technical institutions from universities. Merge NCAD, IT and TCD into the University of Dublin and then split them into a College of Engineering, a College of Art and Design, a College of Vocational Education and Trinity College, being the Science and Arts Faculties, oh and do something with business. NYU has merged with NY Poly in this way and U Manchester with UMIST, nearer home DCU is gradually reeling in St Pats, TCD is absorbing the Milltown Institute and who knows what will happen to Surgeons when the NUI collapses.
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Re: grangegorman allocated 262 million

Postby Denton » Mon Sep 08, 2008 9:14 am

IT looks amazing!

Possibly a rival for best campus. Trinity still wins, but this really will turn heads.

The stepped areas looking over the pitch's look amazing.

I see they really want the Luas D line from looking at those plans. They can dream on. The BX is uncertain as it is considering it will be built on the same route as the metro north.:rolleyes: And line D is planed for post 2014 anyway.

Still the campus looks great. No complaints sire!:cool:
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Re: grangegorman allocated 262 million

Postby johnny21 » Mon Sep 08, 2008 10:17 am

More renders!! Plans for bus station and new luas line in 2014-2015!! Also plans for the old buildings in the campus.
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Re: grangegorman allocated 262 million

Postby gunter » Mon Sep 08, 2008 11:06 am

Maybe the soft arty watercolours are helping sell this, but this just looks outstanding to me. The massing around the entrance at Broadstone, the great split level urban space spilling across Constitution Hill to the King's Inn park, this is great stuff, and look you don't need 32 storey high rise clusters!

It's not until you see someone get one of these right that you realize how stiff and sterile proposals like the Markets Area regeneration are, or how greedy, over-scaled and insensitive are proposals like Dunne's in Ballsbridge.

This is urban planning as we haven't seen it is some time. Now a 'Knowledge Axis' that links the Digital Hub to Grangegorman, is starting to look like a much more interesting concept.
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Re: grangegorman allocated 262 million

Postby johnny21 » Mon Sep 08, 2008 11:27 am

Im a bit of a high rise addict but i agree with qunter!!!:eek: Its a breath of fresh air, its a majestic plan which will be great for the area. The plan for the area makes a change from extreme high rises, which we dont need in SOME areas. The architects know what there doing alright, when you have an experienced architect working on a project of this propotion its makes a difference. At least most people are agreeing that this plan is great compared to other threads!!!!!:D
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Re: grangegorman allocated 262 million

Postby Conorworld » Wed Sep 10, 2008 12:10 am

It looks really good. It looks like it is integrated within the area almost seamless but is also noticeably different. However as this is the plan NOW how will it fare out in time? What is the timeframe for all the building? I am also wondering if high rise is a good thing as in time you will probably run out of space and will that cause the same messy situation DIT is now with various bits all over the city because Grangegorma is full in the future?

I can understand the idea of DIT and Trinity merging. It would allow a lot of synergies in the future and give the new amalgamated university more clout when it comes to R+D. When you have both institutions building similar facilities and competing for similar R+D contracts it would make sense. It would not stifle competition as Dublin alone would have DCU and UCD to compete against. An amalgamation would also allow finer planning in the Grangegorman masterplan.
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Re: grangegorman allocated 262 million

Postby lostexpectation » Wed Sep 10, 2008 12:18 am

come on why do we need a another university, i would have loved to go to tech and not a unviersity OT
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Re: grangegorman allocated 262 million

Postby notjim » Wed Sep 10, 2008 12:41 am

lostexpectations: DIT is a university; CIT, LIT, WIT and GMIT are hard to tell from universities, they are different to TCD, but TCD and DCU are already pretty different, TCD and UCD are different, I agree that we have too many universities, but being precious about the title "university" doesn't change that, merging TCD, NCAD and DIT in the University of Dublin would, on a superficial level it reduces the number of universities by one and, more, it creates greater permeability between technical, vocational and traditional university education, while, by keeping colleges within the university, preserving distinct teaching missions. It also has a chance of creating the critical mass needed for international competition for students at undergraduate and postgraduate level and for research staff. Already some of the best students go abroad for their primary degrees and most of the best go abroad for PhDs.
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Re: grangegorman allocated 262 million

Postby jimg » Wed Sep 10, 2008 1:30 am

gunter, someone else has mentioned it but the point is to have a university which can compete internationally. And no, it is not just a small niche of highly technical which benefit from having a critical mass. The reality is the opposite; there are only a tiny number of fields which do not particularly benefit from having greater mass. On an international scale most of our university departments can be beaten in graduate and research work by UK universities you mightn't even have heard of. We generally are unable to compete on a european level never mind internationally. If you enrole in a graduate program in a top school in the states, you can expect to have access to internationally renown experts in the field at the least through their lectures; these are often people who are renown outside academia. It's like a pyramid: you need a huge under-graduate program; this supports and feeds into busy research and thought graduate courses; which in turn supports active doctoral and post-doctoral reseach; and the whole structure is topped off by the academic superstars.
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Re: grangegorman allocated 262 million

Postby johnglas » Wed Sep 10, 2008 11:32 am

All this is probably true, but it is equally an example of the commodification of education; universities are now degree factories - of course one is impressed by the wealth of talent (which is just as impressed with itself) but... Anyway, Grangegorman could be a great site and shouldn't be held back by concerns about critical mass in some kind of academic supermarket. Believe it or not, institutions can cooperate rather than be amalgamated into huge agglomerations. US universities will always look good because of vast endowments; does the US make the most beneficial contribution to the world? Discuss. How much university research is actually about the needs of the military/big business?
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Re: grangegorman allocated 262 million

Postby notjim » Wed Sep 10, 2008 2:44 pm

johnglas wrote:. Anyway, Grangegorman could be a great site and shouldn't be held back by concerns about critical mass in some kind of academic supermarket


You are wrong about universities of course, but more's to the point, you are right that there is not reason to link the two issues; its my fault and my point was that I was envious I certainly didn't mean that the DIT Grangegorman site should be in some way dependent on merging universities.
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Re: grangegorman allocated 262 million

Postby johnglas » Wed Sep 10, 2008 5:27 pm

You are wrong about universities of course


Hmmm... but not a debate for this thread. This could be such a marvellous opportunity for an area that has traditionally been 'closed' to the city being 'opened' and integrated; the masterplan looks good and with a clear head and a steady hand there is no reason why it should not be implemented, even during the current blip. I like the idea of a more open 'campus' -university uses, yes, but real shops, pubs, cafes, streets, businesses as well - any thoughts?
The thought of the tramway going through, the prospect of integrating it with the marvellous Broadstone building, the retention of historic buildings on the site - am I dreaming or is this all too good to be true?
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Re: grangegorman allocated 262 million

Postby notjim » Wed Sep 10, 2008 7:35 pm

Well it has a large atrium in the corner by broadstone for public use and the masterplan talks quite a bit about opening the facilities, playgrounds and the like, for public use. They also propose housing a public local library with the university library and there will be a school on the grounds.

I think we are too used to Campus Universities here, UCD wasn't but they moved, really, or rather more typically, Universities spread beyond their original site and become mixed up with the neighbourhood. However, within their campuses Irish Universities are quite open, TCD is a major city center open space, UL and DCU have significant performance venues, TCD and UCC have public galleries, TCD has the science gallery, UL's sports facilities get a lot of use beyond the university and sports grounds in the other universities are used by the public, unfortunately none of the Universities have opened their collections as museums, but all of them give reasonably unrestricted access to their grounds. The DIT plan seems to go even further in that direction, which is a good thing.
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Re: grangegorman allocated 262 million

Postby Pot Noodle » Thu Sep 11, 2008 11:50 am

i would;nt hold my breath on this ever getting built i bought property in area in 99 and the project was to get underway then they will find an excuse to wriggle out of it and give themselfs more rises:cool:
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Re: grangegorman allocated 262 million

Postby notjim » Thu Sep 11, 2008 11:53 am

Pot Noodle: I understand your cynicism and actual DIT people seem to feel the same, but it is impressive how quickly the masterplan was produced relative to when the architects were appointed and, if you look at the DIT Grangegorman site you can see they seem to give presentations about it every few months and there is considerable progress from presentation to presentation.
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Re: grangegorman allocated 262 million

Postby johnglas » Thu Sep 11, 2008 12:14 pm

The present blip may hold thingsup a bit, since DIT will - rightly - want the best return on any assets they dispose of. I've just seen UCC's campus and was mightily impressed; it's very open (although the Honan chapel was closed - just my luck) and my argument would simply be that more non-uni uses (or uses not controlled directly by the uni) should be on-campus to provide a more eclectic mix. I can see problems with this approach, but this is a huge site and it should be able to accommodate them all; the tramway through the site should encourage development which might otherwise not go there.
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Re: grangegorman allocated 262 million

Postby Pot Noodle » Thu Sep 11, 2008 4:26 pm

notjim wrote:Pot Noodle: I understand your cynicism and actual DIT people seem to feel the same, but it is impressive how quickly the masterplan was produced relative to when the architects were appointed and, if you look at the DIT Grangegorman site you can see they seem to give presentations about it every few months and there is considerable progress from presentation to presentation.




Luas lines beautiful campus elegantly design all spin i tell you Biffo will just put back up on his Shelf
292 million would not build it who got the project Notjim
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Re: grangegorman allocated 262 million

Postby notjim » Fri Oct 17, 2008 4:38 pm

If you haven't looked in a while the dit Grangegorman site has a much more detailed masterplan now, well worth a look:

http://www.dit.ie/about/grangegorman/

There is lots of it so I have only looked at the re-use and conservation section so far, it is fascinating and contains the fun factoid that the architecture school is to be located in the former prison.
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Re: grangegorman allocated 262 million

Postby notjim » Wed Feb 04, 2009 11:23 am

This is still moving forward, they have just applied for permission to refurbish the Laundry Building, to protect it and to fit it out so medical services can be decanted their while other works are going on.

http://www.ggda.ie/assets/GG_Laundry_Building_Information.pdf
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Re: grangegorman allocated 262 million

Postby ninafive » Mon Feb 23, 2009 1:52 pm

A very comprehensive review of the existing structures i think, however, i cant find any reference to the original railway buildings. Are these not part of the lands to be developed?
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Re: grangegorman allocated 262 million

Postby kefu » Mon Feb 23, 2009 2:16 pm

Two different sites: no railway buildings in the Grangegorman site, that would be Broadstone where there is currently a bus garage.
Have to say I seriously doubt this will go ahead now. I think a lot of it was predicated on the DIT being able to sell all the various city center campuses at the height of the boom. Some of those sites, Kevin Street, Aungier Street, Bolton Street etc would not be a particularly attractive proposition now.
Would be suicidal and very damaging for the local areas if those buildings were to be left vacant for a few years, waiting for property prices to recover.
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Re: grangegorman allocated 262 million

Postby notjim » Thu Mar 12, 2009 2:25 pm

They keep moving forward on this, a new video, plans for a community garden, tendering for the temporary school etc

http://www.ggda.ie/
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Re: grangegorman allocated 262 million

Postby dermot_trellis » Thu Mar 12, 2009 4:00 pm

kefu wrote:Have to say I seriously doubt this will go ahead now. I think a lot of it was predicated on the DIT being able to sell all the various city center campuses at the height of the boom. Some of those sites, Kevin Street, Aungier Street, Bolton Street etc would not be a particularly attractive proposition now.
Would be suicidal and very damaging for the local areas if those buildings were to be left vacant for a few years, waiting for property prices to recover.


Yeah, it may unfortunately be the case that DIT have dragged their heels for so long on this that they've missed the window of opportunity. Which would be a shame, because the masterplan looks very good.
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Re: grangegorman allocated 262 million

Postby ninafive » Thu Mar 12, 2009 8:43 pm

notjim wrote:They keep moving forward on this, a new video, plans for a community garden, tendering for the temporary school etc

http://www.ggda.ie/


Theres the 'fingers' again - coming over like the hand of God or something-
damn thats cheesy!
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Re: grangegorman allocated 262 million

Postby notjim » Fri Mar 13, 2009 10:47 am

Regarding my comments above about TCD and DIT, from today's indo . . .

“Trinity College, Dublin, is engaged in another round of secret talks – this time with the Dublin Institute of Technology. It has already upset the other universities who were unaware of its negotiations with UCD, which resulted in Wednesday’s announcement of an Innovation Alliance. The separate discussions with DIT are looking at all possible forms of potential alliance such as joint degrees, shared services and even joint staff appointments. The options under review include everything from a Memorandum of Understanding ‘to the inclusion of DIT as a separate autonomous institution under the university’. A confidential report to the heads of both institutions sets out areas of potential future collaboration …”

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/trinity-in-separate-secret-discussions-with-dit-1671619.html

I don't know why they don't just put me in charge.
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