Liberty Hall redevelopment

Should Liberty Hall Be Listed?

Yes
168
46%
No
198
54%
 
Total votes : 366

Re: Liberty Hall

Postby johnny21 » Fri Aug 22, 2008 5:02 pm

KNOCK IT!! And replace it with a modern high rise building:D
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Re: Liberty Hall

Postby Peter Fitz » Fri Aug 22, 2008 9:55 pm

Westie wrote:Why do people like it ?. Just because its been there for 40 odd years. Its a bug bearer I have with Dubliners and I think indicative of many of the problems Dublin faces. Its not that people love LIberty Hall, its that they really just dont like change, they'd prefer to retain an ugly 60.'s eyesore than risk replacing it with something new and innovative. Only in Dublin could people possibly have a cultural affection for two overbearing nondescript chimney stacks which ruin an otherwise stunning bay area. I think this 'Dublin in the rare oul times' attitude shows a lack of self-confidence and is at the root of why we have no iconic 21st century architecture in this city, why the high rise debate is so contentious, why the docklands (the best opportunity we had to go crazy architecturally) look like something from an IKEA flatpack and why planning generally in this city is soooo frustrating.

I feel much better after that vent


Whats not to like? its a simple structure, decent proportions, clean lined & originally fairly light in appearance given its size. Overall I think its a decent representative of its time & deserves to be appropriately refurbished & retained.

Failure to maintain any structure other than solid glass over its lifetime will generally leave it looking like crap.

You needn't worry Westie, i doubt i represent the view of the majority,
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Re: Liberty Hall

Postby GrahamH » Sat Aug 23, 2008 1:46 am

I disagree Westie. Completely. Far from people not liking change, most of the recent recladding and rectifying of 1960s and particularly 1970s horrors across the city of late has been thoroughly welcomed. These have been improving redevelopments of urban infill and (generally) have contributed significantly to the design qualities and wider image of the city. While representative of their time, the former structures generally had little architectural merit or cultural meaning - they are generally painlessly replaced.

By contrast, Liberty Hall, and indeed the Poolbeg Chimneys, are very much iconic structures, and in a way that structures often touted as iconic rarely are. They embody significances - and it is all about significance - that go beyond the ordinary. These range from acting as instantly recognisable icons of Dublin, to being representations of their time in terms of 1) architectural/engineering form and design, 2) cultural aspirations, and 3) economic progress and development, as well as forming part of an established and often loved townscape and/or landscape. It is the combination of these elements in such concentrations that lend these structures, and buildings like them, their special status.

I fail to understand how the retention of Liberty Hall (a concept in itself I do no consider an arbitary one) can be deemed to exhibit a lack of self-confidence. Indeed the very notion of such is ever so slightly farcial in the context of the biggest chance this state has ever had to express itself in a modern idiom, which has so dismally failed in terms of ambition, lies directly adjacent to Liberty Hall - in fact the tower positively heralds the very arrival of what could have been. And yet it is this very building - one of the few structures in the city that really was ambitious for its age, if rudely positioned - that is claimed to lack all self-confidence by its retention.

If anything, Liberty Hall can stand smug and ever-confident on the preeminent site in the city, overlooking the acres of this 'progress' these cutting-edge times have the ability to bring us. Perhaps the desire to knock Liberty Hall stems from this very embarrassment of its supremity over the very development that was supposed to usurp it.
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Re: Liberty Hall

Postby Denton » Thu Sep 11, 2008 1:11 pm

Unless more building would be going up in the surrounding area, its pointless to put something bigger in its place.


Using the theatre as well as liberty hall is the only way to get a good building in there, something to be proad of. The space is too small to stick anything good unless other buildings nearby complemented it.

Whats Tara street station going to look like? Thats the big question. Somethings going ontop of it, so whatever that looks like that will help determin what Liberty hall's future state should be. If anything it should stay similar or simply stay.


One idea could be to use the theatre site to build something along side it that connects too its western face. Completly alter the tower, but keep most of it. Difficult and mad, and could look like frankenstein's monster, but its just an idea.


If irish life was visable in the sky line it would be so bad either, but its squat and brown. A nice design, but it needs a good lick of paint and more plants.


Oh and please, if Tara Street is going up up and away. Please could they take down DOHC. Thats just awful. Even nestled between 4 and 5 story buidlings that concrete legoblock is just awful. And that building behind it is no better.
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Re: Liberty Hall

Postby shanekeane » Fri Sep 12, 2008 4:23 am

Denton wrote:Unless more building would be going up in the surrounding area, its pointless to put something bigger in its place.


Using the theatre as well as liberty hall is the only way to get a good building in there, something to be proad of. The space is too small to stick anything good unless other buildings nearby complemented it.

Whats Tara street station going to look like? Thats the big question. Somethings going ontop of it, so whatever that looks like that will help determin what Liberty hall's future state should be. If anything it should stay similar or simply stay.


One idea could be to use the theatre site to build something along side it that connects too its western face. Completly alter the tower, but keep most of it. Difficult and mad, and could look like frankenstein's monster, but its just an idea.


If irish life was visable in the sky line it would be so bad either, but its squat and brown. A nice design, but it needs a good lick of paint and more plants.


Oh and please, if Tara Street is going up up and away. Please could they take down DOHC. Thats just awful. Even nestled between 4 and 5 story buidlings that concrete legoblock is just awful. And that building behind it is no better.


Liberty hall is a total monstrosity that contributes a huge amount to the rundown feel of Dublin from O'Connell Bridge. Both that and that Heineken building should be torn down, the bridge should be refurbished, and all that revolting signage either side of O'Connell Street should be removed.

The area of liberty hall should be returned to the same scale as the surrounding buildings, perhaps it could be a perfect location for a new Abbey Theatre, perhaps still attached to the old abbey theatre so that it retains an element of authenticity. Siptu should be given a plot of land on the docklands and be told they can build 30 storeys if they want to. This is all common sense and nobody could possibly disagree.
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Re: Liberty Hall

Postby Peter Fitz » Fri Sep 12, 2008 8:57 am

Image

Quite like this shot posted by GrahamH on another thread.

Obviously don't agree Shane. However if we are to get some sort of bloated replacement, i would prefer to see the quay line reinstated. It could have made a good location for the new Abbey though, pivotal corner site with river frontage & near enough to the original too !

All dream stuff though, siptu always unlikely to give up that site & both decisions long since made. Will be very interested to see what Gilroy McMahon come up with.
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Re: Liberty Hall

Postby missarchi » Fri Sep 12, 2008 9:23 am

i'm betting my money on these options

a) the clearest smoothest most transparent building money can buy and maybe bricks to the quay line ;)

http://www.flickr.com/photos/misterrad/113251567/sizes/l/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/laserbub/245173760/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/lazyjones/2625194548/

(except clear)

the big question is will the floor plate get bigger... the site is just so tight mabye there are talking with Irish life?
And will there be some green cooper in the mix... and the green stuff;)
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Re: Liberty Hall

Postby Rory W » Fri Sep 12, 2008 10:12 am

shanekeane wrote:Liberty hall is a total monstrosity that contributes a huge amount to the rundown feel of Dublin from O'Connell Bridge. Both that and that Heineken building should be torn down, the bridge should be refurbished, and all that revolting signage either side of O'Connell Street should be removed.

The area of liberty hall should be returned to the same scale as the surrounding buildings, perhaps it could be a perfect location for a new Abbey Theatre, perhaps still attached to the old abbey theatre so that it retains an element of authenticity. Siptu should be given a plot of land on the docklands and be told they can build 30 storeys if they want to. This is all common sense and nobody could possibly disagree.


It's not common sense and I disagree.

Both O'Connell Bridge House and Liberty Hall should be preserved, love them or hate them they are part of what makes Dublin 'Dublin'. Liberty Hall should be refurbished to the original spec and then it wouldn't look rundown at all. Siptu will always want to retain a presence on a historical site rather than be fecked off down the docks.

And quite why the abbey theatre should move to a smaller narrower site is beyond me.
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Re: Liberty Hall

Postby missarchi » Fri Sep 12, 2008 10:51 am

being from a far away place O'Connell bridge house stinks and so do some of the departments in it...

while I respect liberty halls position it is dated and questionable...

A few years ago you might say I lost a job to these objectors of tall buildings what strikes me is if you have enough power you seem to be able to do what you want in this city... in some cases its good in some cases its bad...

Rory while I take your point its like saying joepublic can build as high as anyone else in the city and knock down anything they want equal planning... but the planning is not equal and fair... this is what is sad...

the truth is bridge house and liberty hall are not unique buildings worthy now of indefinite preservation and that's why they are looking at knocking it down and starting fresh... it's plain and simple...

buildings must stand the test of time!!!
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Re: Liberty Hall

Postby Rory W » Fri Sep 12, 2008 11:42 am

missarchi wrote:being from a far away place O'Connell bridge house stinks and so do some of the departments in it...

while I respect liberty halls position it is dated and questionable...

A few years ago you might say I lost a job to these objectors of tall buildings what strikes me is if you have enough power you seem to be able to do what you want in this city... in some cases its good in some cases its bad...

Rory while I take your point its like saying joepublic can build as high as anyone else in the city and knock down anything they want equal planning... but the planning is not equal and fair... this is what is sad...

the truth is bridge house and liberty hall are not unique buildings worthy now of indefinite preservation and that's why they are looking at knocking it down and starting fresh... it's plain and simple...

buildings must stand the test of time!!!


What departments are in O'Connell Bridge House? The CSO used to be there but I think it's all commercially let now. Just because something is dated doesn't mean it's not worthy of restoration/preservation as examples of 1960s architecture - sure get rid of Hawkins House, Apollo House etc but I believe that Liberty Hall and O'Connell Bridge house are worth keeping as they are unique in a Dublin context. They were built pre the planning act so that's why they are taller than others built since then.

You may not like them but I think keep them, if not then in 40 years time well be proposing the demolition of their replacements and one of the charms of Dublin is it's mixture of buildings. Otherwise we'll end up with Georgian and then ultra modern with nothing inbetween
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Re: Liberty Hall

Postby reddy » Fri Sep 12, 2008 12:14 pm

Buildings ony become truly iconic when they become emblematic of an era/ place/ event. The poolbeg stacks and liberty house are certainly emblems of Dublin so I definiteley think they should be retained.

The renovation and adaptation of buildings is also poised to become one of the biggest sustainability issues over the next few years. This idea that a buildings utility is exhausted after a mere forty/fifty years is ridiculous. The destruction of buildings such as liberty hall is a needless waste of time, resources, money and energy.

We would be much better served by imaginative ideas for adaptation than just wiping the slate clean and starting over.
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Re: Liberty Hall

Postby johnglas » Fri Sep 12, 2008 6:20 pm

reddy: absolutely - however, some of our younger colleagues have a memory span of three weeks and can't wait for a city of high-rises and glass fronts; so cool, man.
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Re: Liberty Hall

Postby PVC King » Sat Sep 13, 2008 9:10 am

johnglas wrote:reddy: absolutely - however, some of our younger colleagues have a memory span of three weeks and can't wait for a city of high-rises and glass fronts; so cool, man.



Totally agree and there is no better example of a building representing a particular era both at the time and as a symbol of modernity for the next 30 plus years.

It is shocking that this building which only needs an internal refurb and external recladding is facing the chop; you could understand if this was a property play but its a frickin union imitating those they caricature.

Get it listed
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Re: Liberty Hall

Postby Conorworld » Sat Sep 13, 2008 5:44 pm

I am going to be really basic and silly by saying I love the green wavey metallic top of Liberty Hall. All Liberty Hall needs is a good spruce up and recladding. And some fancy nice lights at night time for the green wavey top.
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Re: Liberty Hall

Postby shanekeane » Sun Sep 14, 2008 1:47 am

Peter Fitz wrote:Whats not to like? its a simple structure, decent proportions, clean lined & originally fairly light in appearance given its size. Overall I think its a decent representative of its time & deserves to be appropriately refurbished & retained.

Failure to maintain any structure other than solid glass over its lifetime will generally leave it looking like crap.

You needn't worry Westie, i doubt i represent the view of the majority,


it seems to me that nobody but nobody thinks that this building should be left like it is. what about if we returned to it to how it looked in the sixties? im guessing nobody's in favour of that either. i'll tell you why, because it's an ugly building which might be made acceptable by being completely redone in a modern style. the problem is that if it's redone, it's no longer a representative of its time. so we might as well pull it down because it ruins the quays and because the city centre belongs to everybody, not just to fans of short lived architectural styles, and making it a pleasant, aesthetically pleasing place to live in is for the benefit of most people. the very centre of dublin and of ireland is o'connell bridge and i think it says a lot about this country that almost every direction you look in you see a new monstrosity.
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Re: Liberty Hall

Postby Rory W » Mon Sep 15, 2008 10:11 am

shanekeane wrote:it seems to me that nobody but nobody thinks that this building should be left like it is. what about if we returned to it to how it looked in the sixties? im guessing nobody's in favour of that either. i'll tell you why, because it's an ugly building which might be made acceptable by being completely redone in a modern style. the problem is that if it's redone, it's no longer a representative of its time. so we might as well pull it down because it ruins the quays and because the city centre belongs to everybody, not just to fans of short lived architectural styles, and making it a pleasant, aesthetically pleasing place to live in is for the benefit of most people. the very centre of dublin and of ireland is o'connell bridge and i think it says a lot about this country that almost every direction you look in you see a new monstrosity.


No it should be returned to how it looked in the 60's - what you see now is a bastardised version of the original, following the bombing in 1973 the windows were replaced with horrible reflective glass (loosing the original transparency) which is now flaking, the mosaic has been plastered over, the lighting scheme for the building was repaired once in the 1990s (and the roof looked great).

In essence the building has not been maintained, if it were refurbished to original spec it would look great. Reopen the observation platform on the roof which was closed due to the troubles (which are over for 10 years now) and make Liberty Hall great again.
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Re: Liberty Hall

Postby jdivision » Mon Sep 15, 2008 1:42 pm

When I think of how glass can either age or reinvigorate a building I think of this. Built in the 1970s and still works today
http://www.fosterandpartners.com/Projects/0102/Default.aspx
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Re: Liberty Hall

Postby tomcosgrave » Mon Sep 15, 2008 2:39 pm

Hi all - long time reader, first time poster.
Not sure if anyone here has spent any time working in Liberty Hall. I have - and it's a lousy place to work. Most of the floor space is taken up by the lift shafts, and the offices are very cramped. It's not a great place to spend any time in at all. The staff working there had to be moved out because the electricity cabling went awry a couple of years ago, and I believe the basement flooded as well. It's not really fit for purpose any more.

Because it's such an iconic building, my preference is to have it redesiged, looking the more or less the same externally, perhaps with a couple more stories, but to have a modern and sophisticated approach to the interior design and infrastructure of the building, and then dismantle the existing one and build the new design.
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Re: Liberty Hall

Postby Pot Noodle » Mon Sep 15, 2008 2:59 pm

i think if handled properly it could be Dublin's answer to The gherkin building
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Re: Liberty Hall

Postby missarchi » Mon Sep 15, 2008 3:23 pm

Pot Noodle wrote:i think if handled properly it could be Dublin's answer to The gherkin building


just look at the comments Dunne has received for his diamond!
its going to end in tears...

anyway I hope they release the design soon it will be the talk of the town!

liberty hall reminds me of that dark lone scraper in paris with the fastest lifts!
I would bet the central bank has the strongest core in Ireland...
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Re: Liberty Hall

Postby PVC King » Mon Sep 15, 2008 3:38 pm

tomcosgrave wrote:Hi all - long time reader, first time poster.
Not sure if anyone here has spent any time working in Liberty Hall. I have - and it's a lousy place to work. Most of the floor space is taken up by the lift shafts, and the offices are very cramped. It's not a great place to spend any time in at all. The staff working there had to be moved out because the electricity cabling went awry a couple of years ago, and I believe the basement flooded as well. It's not really fit for purpose any more.



Commercial landlords will refit every 15-20 years renewing all mechanical and electrical services; I do sympathise with you having to put up with those conditions but it is felt that throwing the baby out with the bathwater is not the solution.

Think Treasury building on Grand Canal Street where the interiors were replaced and cladding replaced but all based around the original structure and it didn't even have a cute roof!!
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Re: Liberty Hall

Postby CTR » Mon Sep 15, 2008 4:25 pm

To demolish Liberty Hall would be an injustice. It is an iconic building in Dublin and should be kept. It's not perfect, but it symbolises the time and i don't think it's that bad looking
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Re: Liberty Hall

Postby Pot Noodle » Mon Sep 15, 2008 5:06 pm

missarchi wrote:i'm betting my money on these options

a) the clearest smoothest most transparent building money can buy and maybe bricks to the quay line ;)

http://www.flickr.com/photos/misterrad/113251567/sizes/l/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/laserbub/245173760/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/lazyjones/2625194548/

(except clear)

the big question is will the floor plate get bigger... the site is just so tight mabye there are talking with Irish life?
And will there be some green cooper in the mix... and the green stuff;)




i like the herald
Sun building one the best
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Re: Liberty Hall

Postby hutton » Thu Sep 25, 2008 12:24 pm

For all you lovers of Liberty, I Goes Up Liberty Hall :D
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Re: Liberty Hall

Postby CM00 » Fri Sep 26, 2008 1:41 pm

If we were talking about retaining Liberty hall as an object for posterity or as a symbol of Dublin obviously it is a given that it should be retained and refurbished under the auspices of another Organisation. I do however feel it needs to be undelined that the structure of the building -i.e. the rc core- takes up 50% of the floorplate. No amount of "refitting" or "modernisation" will alter this fact.

In a similar vein, This means that the building - no matter how much money you spend on making it "look" better - or even bringing it back to it's original appearance- will make it WORK better in as much as what SIPTU need from the structure: more floorspace and less segmentation and hierarchy in their offices. Put simply; the building does not work and cannot be made to work for its users. Surely the discourse should take this into account rather than focusing entirely upon aesthetics...
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