D'Olier & Westmoreland St.

[notjim]

1) Cool pics.

2) Image size:

<img src="http . . . ", width=200>

3)Irish Times thread
http://www.archiseek.com/content/showthread.php?t=3653

[StephenC]

This is what your getting...

[StephenC]

ooops...how do I make that smaller (sorry Paul)

[gunter]

When you see these in the planning office, you're never quite sure whether the model was damaged in transit , or whether the building is actually crumpled.

[StephenC]

LOL...no its meant to be like that. I have images but they wont upload.

[notjim]

1) Image size:

<img src="http . . . ", width=200>

Image size: 200 is actually too small, 300 is good!

[reddy]

http://www.bslarch.com/irishtimes.html

Landscape proposal for the atrium of the former Irish Times building.

[SunnyDub]

transport and architecture are linked... sad but true fix the bridge as well

[/QUOTE]


Missarchi, I have to say good concept drawing, I like the idea of tunnels through this point for Luas & metro, not so sure about buses though. I wonder if alternative diversions can be found to remove the through traffic?

I understand where busman is coming from trying to minimise bus stops / speed up buses but this negates the whole role and system of buses which are designed to stop at short intervals, whereas trams are designed at longer intervals, metro even longer intervals and heavy rail longer intervals again.

[Busman]

I understand where busman is coming from trying to minimise bus stops / speed up buses but this negates the whole role and system of buses which are designed to stop at short intervals, whereas trams are designed at longer intervals, metro even longer intervals and heavy rail longer intervals again.

If there were ten or twenty bus routes crossing the city, this may stand up. Alas, there are over 150 separate bus routes entering the city, with an average of 120 buses an hour coming down O'Connell Street, outside the peak periods. Add to that another 120 buses an hour traveling UP O'Connell Street! In theory, that is a bus down the street every thirty seconds. In practice, nothing arrives for two or three minutes, and then a whole line of buses descend into O'Connell Street, jostling for position, queuing up for hopelessly inadequate bus stop space, and causing congestion to each other and everyone else.

The arrival of LUAS trams has done nothing to ease the sheer congestion of buses in the city centre. The mid term view would appear to be to run trams right into the most congested areas of the city centre, as cheaply as can be managed. This results in lovely shiny new trams held up in the same congestion as everyone else. Buses departing Heuston Station can run down the bus lane far quicker than trams on the Red Line. The Red Line is no example of how to apply rapid transit to the congested centre of Dublin. Metro trains running on their own dedicated lines would seem to be subject to the vagaries of the economic climate, the amount of money in government coffers, and whoever happens to be sitting in power at any given moment.

That is why the buses need to be run in and out of the city much faster and more efficiently. Buses are the most cost effective way of doing straight away, what Metro trains would hopefully do in the mid to long term. Alas, reorganising the bus network, abolishing some of the buses from O'Connell Street and College Green, and getting the buses moving faster and more efficiently, would probably look far less good on an election poster than a shiny new LUAS tram, coming to YOUR area SOON!

I did type a much better argument, spent half an hour getting it just right, pressed SUBMIT, and then Firefox crashed...

* sigh *

[missarchi]

there is no need for buses/luas to cross this point above ground once the metro and interconnector is in...
anyway there are loads of options...

the F luas/minibus can have an shallow underground station that connects to the metro station via a tunnel

however it would appear to be possible to have at least 3-4 lanes ontop of 3-4 lanes which would be at a depth of what 10m cut n cover you would assume tanked...

2 lanes east west luas/bus and emergency vehicles
2 lanes cars ( we swap with the car park if we need emergency lanes)

4 lanes (carpark)

what 1000 car spaces if you wanted ( this would reduce some of cars crossing the area ) and help provide for the public venue space ontop...

You could even have 1 lane of cars east west using the plaza at set times on weekdays at 30 km/h no buses or luas though

I think in the interest of pedestrians we need to either decide the luas and bus share space or we kick one away
its that simple once the metro interconnector are in you cannot justify any more than one lane/tunnel in each direction for public transport in this tight spot the footpaths are overflowing...

I don't know if that makes any sense but i'm guessing you need a flow diagram...

[ctesiphon]

ooops...how do I make that smaller (sorry Paul)

But at that size I think I can see GrahamH outside Doyle's, halfway through his marathon road crossing!

[Denton]

I find it odd that for a thread that also talks about D'Olier street, barely anything has actually been said about it!

Im a nursing student and a fan of architecture so i feel blessed that my faculty is based inside the old GAS building. 3 glorious buildings intertwined and used very well, a cinema, a office block and a tudor house all together.

Also id like to ask when was the "heineken" building made? I actually like it but im clueless as to what its purpose is other than offices and Q bar.


And whats up with the west side of D'Olier, its just dead. Other than a blood Doner clinic its devoid of anything.

Its a massive terrace and still has the newspaper headings on some of the buildings and one clock, but almost all the building are dead, its a real shame.

Not only are the PILE's of buses on Westmoreland street but they return on D'Olier, and other routes terminate behind it at the eyesore that is DOHC. D'Olier is so busy with buses it has a perminant bus conductor whos there most mornings and into the afternoon conducting things so they dont build up on college green.

I also think Hawkins street and DOHC should be heavily lauded for what has befowled it over the years, or does that fall under Tara streets demise also?

The whole area is patchy and shops only exist on the sections of foothpath that are arteries to other areas, ie western westmoreland, eastern d'olier with whats inbetween left to rot.

Trinity's dominance of pearse street doesnt help wither, its nothing but long walks in every direction.

[Bago]

When you see these in the planning office, you're never quite sure whether the model was damaged in transit , or whether the building is actually crumpled.

This has to be among the saddest trends in architecture. Right so they've proven what modern engineering can do, now can they prove they have any design talent.

[adhoc]

From 22nd June 2007, 01:52 AM

'Irish Times' iconic clock leaves D'Olier Street
Frank McDonald, Environment Editor

The Irish Times clock was finally removed from D'Olier Street in Dublin yesterday and is to be re-erected on the gable end of the company's new premises on Tara Street.

The clock, which dates from the early 1900s, was originally erected on the old Irish Times building on Westmoreland Street and then relocated to D'Olier Street after the front office was relocated there in the 1970s.

Planning permission had to be sought from Dublin City Council to remove the clock as it was part of a terrace of protected buildings dating from the first decade of the 19th century, designed by the Wide Streets Commissioners.

The city council also needed to give its consent as landlord to the re-erection of the clock on the new Irish Times premises, where it is to be placed at second-floor level on the Townsend Street frontage of the seven-storey building.

The clock will be prominently located on the basalt panels of the building, secured to its reinforced concrete structure.

It will also be situated at a high enough elevation to ensure that it would not be hit by a truck or double-decker bus.

Maolíosa Ó Floinn of architects Henry J Lyons and Partners said the cast ironwork of the clock - which he described as having "iconic value" - would need to be refurbished before being erected at its new location in the coming months.

In the meantime, he said work would proceed on the installation of a digital "ticker-tape scroll" at first-floor level on the Tara Street frontage of the building.

This will carry breaking news from Irish Times website, ireland.com.

The former Irish Times premises in D'Olier Street and Fleet Street was acquired last year by developers P Elliott and Company for €29 million.

It is likely to be renovated for a mix of offices and apartments with shops at street level.

Well, the clock was finally erected on Townsend Street this evening. No clear view of it owing to scaffolding etc, but it should be proudly on display tomorrow morning.

[igy]

I'm surprised the independent didn't do the same when they moved, I always liked that clock on the Abbey St building.

[Paul Clerkin]

Wide Streets Commissioners
Various Proposals for Westmoreland Street, 1800, West Side

[GrahamH]

Aha! Henry Aaron Baker's illusive colonnade proposal. I'd never seen the drawing before. Very Belgraviaesque. Just think how striking and distinctive a thoroughfare Westmoreland Street would have been had it been built with these at ground floor level. Coupled with the originally proposed street width of 60 feet - in contrast to the executed 90 feet - it would actually have felt like a street rather than a something of an exploded square created to fill an annoying gap between two more important quarters. It's also more likely that some parts of the terraces would have escaped demolition in the 20th century, the street being on a more intimate scale akin to Grafton Street. Presumably the three drawings were drafted showing what was achievable under three different costings: the colonnade the most expensive (also in terms of floor area), followed by the bottom proposal (executed), and the Tesco Value option in the middle, shorn of dressings to reveal an oddly modernist stripped Grecian-like affair.

It would also be interesting to consider what would have happened to the colonnades had they been built. We would probably have ended up with the same scenario as the Scottish with their peculiar arcaded shops from the 17th and 18th centuries, which inevitably were filled in by the Victorians and later. Presumably what scraps which might have survived on Westmoreland Street would now be considered ripe for restoration to the original format, even if disjointed from their context. How Dublin could have been so very different if they had been built and all survived - a real European injection into proceedings.

Which is why the failure to reinstate a piddling two shopfronts on D'Olier Street in the context of the truly enormous redevelopment granted inside and to the rear of the former Irish Times offices is all the more breathtaking in its failure to grasp the bigger picture. Such narrow minded thinking just makes my mind boggle (though this bag of Haribo Kiddie's Super Mix may be playing a part). The granted procenium-like double shopfront can be seen in Stephen's picture above.

Meanwhile, matters continue to fall apart on Westmoreland Street. The latest completely unauthorised shopfront with scrolling digital display, postering tacked about the windows etc etc...



But sure why would you bother when nobody else does either?


The Thai Orchid on the corner with Fleet Street not only has no permission for their recently erected signage on their fine Victorian premises, but in fact has no permission for the actual restaurant either.




The vulgrity that is Supermacs turns from arrogance to plain farce.



And yet this crowd were painted as the Irish success story of the century in the recent The Apprentice. Typical Irish approach - celebrate the small guy 'beating the system' and feck the greater good and any sense of corporate social responsibility. This of course was the classy O'Connell Street premises where the programme was made.



Enforcement: Zero.


Abrakebabra.



Enforcement: Zero.

Carrolls have got cute by sticking their postering onto the back of shelving units rather than onto the glass to avoid penalties. Like they'd receive them either way.



And as for the alcohol... The review of the Special Planning Control Scheme is due - I think they're supposed to be done every six years. Aside from committing to actually enforcing the original one, there has to be more rigorous control of window displays, especially pertaining to alcohol.

And to cap it all off, this has been DCC's latest contribution the whole way down the street, where surfaces were in need of renewal. You couldn't make this stuff up.

[missarchi]

I like Santa and cole... with a irish twist
I was back in madrid and I admire the street furniture and metallic paint...
what is this so called liberties street invent?

I find it hard to understand how the architects ect are going to communicate when they are muzzled

[GrahamH]

Good to see DCC laying down the line there. However the proposal for 'continuity of design from O'Connell Street' is something I would not like to see. A similar all-encompassing and high quality standard of works yes, precision paving absolutely, but the same catalogue furniture most definitely no. There is nothing distinguished about O'Connell Street's furnishings, let alone any other virtue that would make them worthy of rollout across the city centre.

In any event, actions speak louder that words. The latest gobsmacking developments on the College Street island, right in front of the Lords portico.











I mean, where do you start?

Lets not waste out breath on such matters. Rather, just a thought on a potential attraction for Westmoreland Street. Clearly we'll never get anything approaching the original Wide Streets Commission scheme back, but wouldn't it be a heartening development were one of the few straggling remnants of the WSC to be fully restored to its original condition?

One of the best examples is the Abrakebabra building on the west side.



It would be a very worth development were one of these buildings purchased in their entirety - possibly, just possibly by DCC - the original shopfront reinserted, the internal mezzanine put back to its original state, and the ground floor used as a good quality restaurant or café (mezzanines don't support many other uses). The upper floors could then be restored to their late 18th century state as an example of a typical merchant's dwelling above a shop, where guided tours could be given and possibly an exhibition on trade or retail life in Dublin of the late 1700s in the (surely) substantial basement. It could be a real gem on the street if someone would take it on. It could serve as a particularly needed attraction on the otherwise dead eastern side.

On a related note, I see the ownerners of the Guinness store building have just repainted the windows of their upper floors. It has drawn attention to the fact that those of the top two levels are the very last Wide Streets Commission windows surviving on all of Westmoreland Street. The glazing bars were just chopped out







Important survivors.

[missarchi]

[quote="GrahamH"]Good to see DCC laying down the line there. However the proposal for 'continuity of design from O'Connell Street' is something I would not like to see. [/IMG]

I agree the bridge has to be a unique but integrated.

[Paul Clerkin]

The built design and a runner-up design by Sir Thomas Drew for the corner of Westmoreland and Fleet Streets.

[thebig C]

Thanks Paul. I love those old engravings you often dig up:)

[Paul Clerkin]

What I like about these two is the information it gives about the building to the south (no6?) and the original streetlevel entrance to the building as built

[GrahamH]

Indeed - what is now this.



One wonders of the type of thinking that went through the minds of owners and their architects in the 1970s and 1980s, when institutional frontages like this were ripped out or pasted over for a cheap shop front installation. One need only look at the success story of The Millstone restaurant on Dame Street (if admittedly with more inherited glazing that above) to observe how a retained historic frontage confers considerable prestige upon a business's image. The above example is a particularly botched job - cardboard cut-out isn't the term.

This corner building is one that never appealed to me. It doesn't quite know what direction it is headed, with a fabulously vigorous ground floor contrasted with a weak classical upper elevation with overly elongated giant pilaster order and silly frippery about the windows. The Venetian windows at first floor level are also decidedly inadequate, and the facing materials of granite and sandstone curdle in the way they are used. The Fleet Street wing borders on crude.

Drew's design by contrast is a marvellous exposition that does justice to this corner site, at once commanding, upstanding and proud to make its presence known on the streetscape. It demonstrates Drew’s typically skilful handling of proportionality and wonderfully sophisticated detailing. The step down to Fleet Street is particularly well handled, making for a harmonious yet almost entirely distinct expression on that thoroughfare. More than a few hints of his Rathmines Town Hall in there too. A shame it wasn’t executed, more than likely for reasons of cost rather than any classical deference to Trinity down the road. Interesting to see the humble scale of the Wide Streets Commission stock next door.

It was also this site that gave the gothic ICS/Blood Bank building its nickname ‘O’Callaghan’s Chance’, as the architect J.J O’Callaghan came in second place to the winner George C. Ashlin in the above mentioned competition. As a result, the critical O’Connell Bridge site a few doors down became O’Callaghan’s chance in the following period of the late 1890s.

[Paul Clerkin]

Agreed that it's not as confident a design as Drew's - what is interesting is with the exception of the shopfront how little really has changed on the building.