Parnell Square redevelopment

Re: Parnell Square redevelopment

Postby manifesta » Mon Sep 10, 2007 9:17 pm

What was wrong with the GoR the way it was? The addition of the new north gate makes sense on a certain intuitive level: it opens the square, improves pedestrian accessibility, ushers in a new cultural quarter etc etc, but it seems in doing so the integrity of the original design has been compromised.

So maybe I can save myself half a minute cutting through from the east side of Parnell Square to the Hugh Lane, wonderful, I'll get my cup of coffee that much quicker, but I'm going to miss the symmetry that was implied in the single entrance at the base of the cross, the 'IN' on one side and 'OUT' on the other, the Oisin Kelly sculpture as a central fixture. . . Say what you will about improved accessiblity but there was something wonderfully reverent about the original design and concept, suggestive of, say, a stations of the cross. It may be a small, symbolic detail, but an important one nonetheless. Ah well. Changed, changed utterly as the man said.
manifesta
Member
 
Posts: 93
Joined: Wed Aug 02, 2006 11:13 pm
Location: in transit

Re: Parnell Square redevelopment

Postby GrahamH » Mon Sep 10, 2007 9:50 pm

It's a concern most of us have I think. There was always something faintly sacrificial - not quite the word, but the right one's just not coming at the minute - about there only being one way in and one way out. You had to make a commitment to entering the place; leave the outside world behind for a few moments. It's just that bit more self-conscious now, more populist, more Celtic-Tigeresque - more bland.

I do see the point of providing access north-south through the Garden: Parnell Square is soon to be revolutionised with a central garden surrounded by new four-storey Rotunda buildings - all linking into the Garden of Remembrance at the top.

Image

It's just too tempting an opportunity not to do something on the new axis, but I can't help thinking that something more discrete was in order as regards the design of the entrances.
GrahamH
Old Master
 
Posts: 4590
Joined: Tue Oct 15, 2002 11:24 am
Location: Ireland

Re: Parnell Square redevelopment

Postby GrahamH » Sat Sep 29, 2007 3:43 am

29/9/2007

This might as well go here given how the Square feeds into Parnell Street.

The 'down-at-heel' envirnment that characterises Parnell Street is well known, even the recently developed areas, but the eastern end of the street is still stuck in the 1980s. It hasn't been touched by the boom years, and remains the decrepit backwater it has been for the latter part of the 20th century.

This is the reason it was included in the O'Connell Street IAP, was designated an ACA, and sited in an Area of Special Planning Control. It was also because of its second-rate state that the street was given special site cluster designation, with the entire stretch of buildings from O'Connell Street to Marlborough Street tax-incentivised for redevelopment and refurbishment. The ACA also requires that "all new buildings should be designed to the highest standard in a modern architectural idiom. Pastiche will be discouraged and will only be allowed or required in exceptional circumstances."

And yet the very first of these sites to be (finally) redeveloped, and it gets this.

Image


I kid you not. Notwithstanding basic common sense, even with every development control a planning authority can be afforded in this state this utter rubbish is allowed through the system. It is a shocking indictment of the state of planning in the city.

Image


And what is particularly offensive to the citizen or indeed resident of this building is the enormous dividend handed on a plate to the developer by DCC in the form of this mammothly-scaled development, of which only a tiny fraction actually requires architectural treatment - and yet this is the tight-fisted, mean-spirited veneer of muck presented as the sole public face of the development. What an insult to the city.

Image


Its all-singing upturned finger character on the streetscape is fitting.

Image

And to add insult to injury, tax-payers' money actually went into subsidising this scheme, a development that was worth a fortune in the first instance. And what did the city get back? Abolutely nothing. The developer wins again.

Meanwhile the important collection of decrepit mid-18th century townhouses directly adjoining it have just a 'face-lift'. You couldn't make this up if you tried.

Image


Image


Image


It's just unbelieveable: all protected structures, in an ACA.

Image

Ravishing.
GrahamH
Old Master
 
Posts: 4590
Joined: Tue Oct 15, 2002 11:24 am
Location: Ireland

Re: Parnell Square redevelopment

Postby GrahamH » Sat Sep 29, 2007 3:49 am

The adjoining Georgians at the junction with O'Connell Street are also in bits as ever.

Image

So much potential here. And in terms of the architectural hertiage of this part of the city, these facades are almost as significant as the RDH townhouse on O'Connell Street.

An intriguing little gem next door.

Image


Rare Wyatt windows.

Image


An entire streetscape that sorely needs attention. Given these facades can't be given the developer treatment, I suppose neglect is the appropriate period building equivalant.

Image
GrahamH
Old Master
 
Posts: 4590
Joined: Tue Oct 15, 2002 11:24 am
Location: Ireland

Re: Parnell Square redevelopment

Postby alonso » Sat Sep 29, 2007 12:16 pm

:eek: The true cost to the city however is the sad loss of Fibber Magees' beer garden, once the biggest and rockingest outdoor drinking spot in town. So many memories....:(
alonso
Senior Member
 
Posts: 975
Joined: Sun Sep 03, 2006 9:33 pm

Re: Parnell Square redevelopment

Postby hutton » Sat Sep 29, 2007 2:14 pm

Hmmmm. The red block is a missed opportunity alright. Why oh why is the council not getting developers to bring form and finish up to par where bulk and mass is being permitted? The same has been let happen at the corner of Granby Row, while for anybody who wants to see a real horror story, just get in and inspect the recent ten story block of apartments on the corner of Moore St and Parnell St, designed by Tony Reddy's firm IIRC... It's well worth having a look; given that such bulk was permitted the standards within are really second-rate - awkward angles greet the visitor at the entrance hall, non-opening windows are not self-cleaning from what I can tell, lifts are tiny given the amount of people that they're to serve, long dark corridors that were already smelling of dampness prior to final comletion, and a 'penthouse' apartment where the ceiling is at the same relatively low height as the rest of the apts. Remarkable. The only slightly edeeming feature in my book are the razor-edged metal plaques erected on the Moore St gates, commemorating the 1916 leaders; its just unfortunate that the gates themselves slam closed at all times of day and night - very nice for the residents overhead, I'm sure :rolleyes:

Returning to Parnell Square itself, the new access point facing the Hugh Lane Municipal Gallery is indeed a welcome improvement. The attention to detail in terms of the etched glass reflecting the motifs is a nice touch, and all round it seems to work very well. I am also glad that DCC didn't try to do anything overly "radical" which may have botched up (such as happened with the former park at St Marys outside the Jervis Centre). So hats off to the architects in DCC on this one; sensitively handled it should be a real success :)

GrahamH wrote:
Image



Regarding the proposals for renewing the square as a whole, I was impressed by this plan when regeneration was first planned. The idea of erecting hospital buildings along the east and west perimeter in exchange for returning the middle of the square to use as gardens seemed a very sensible and smart idea. However given the development of the National Childrens Hospital being planned for Eccles Street, it would appear likely that it will become the maternity hospital - superceding the Rotunda]not builld[/I] along the perimeter, and instead return Bartolemew Mosse's Pleasure Gardens as a real amenity to Dubliners. It's not as if the north inner city has much green space anyway; Mountjoy Square and King's Inns front at Constitution Hill add up to relatively little when compared to the area of Merrion Square, Stephens Green, Iveagh Gardens, St Patricks etc. Even at present part of what was the park at Sean MacDermot St/ Gardiner St is being built upon - so all in all a real shortage of publically accessible green space in the north inner city, hence the case for really trying to restore the amenity aspect of Parnell Square to it's maximum. Any takers?
hutton
Senior Member
 
Posts: 993
Joined: Tue Dec 28, 2004 10:14 pm
Location: NAMA HQ

Re: Parnell Square redevelopment

Postby StephenC » Mon Oct 01, 2007 11:34 am

Why do you think the Rotunda will close? The new NCH at the Mater will replace Temple Street hospital. Its not planned to be a maternity hospital.
User avatar
StephenC
Old Master
 
Posts: 2497
Joined: Mon Jul 16, 2001 12:00 am
Location: Dublin

Re: Parnell Square redevelopment

Postby notjim » Mon Oct 01, 2007 1:03 pm

Don't you expect the maternity hospitals to be co-located?
notjim
 
Posts: 1708
Joined: Tue Mar 06, 2001 1:00 am
Location: Dublin

Re: Parnell Square redevelopment

Postby cgcsb » Tue Aug 19, 2008 10:46 pm

Is this redevolpement going ahead. This thread is 3 years old and all we have is a new canopy over the rotunda's main enterence. No trees no reduction in parking no granite paving no improved bus bays
cgcsb
Senior Member
 
Posts: 516
Joined: Wed Dec 12, 2007 9:24 pm

Re: Parnell Square redevelopment

Postby gunter » Wed Aug 20, 2008 12:22 am

I was going to post this up for busman on the College Green / O'Connell St. thread and then the Parnell Square thread turns up. Better again!

Image
If there was a bus equivalent of the train-spotter, Parnell Square would be the equivalent of Crewe.
gunter
Old Master
 
Posts: 1923
Joined: Wed Jan 16, 2008 10:33 pm
Location: Dublin

Re: Parnell Square redevelopment

Postby Pilear » Wed Aug 20, 2008 4:11 pm

cgcsb wrote:Is this redevolpement going ahead. This thread is 3 years old and all we have is a new canopy over the rotunda's main enterence. No trees no reduction in parking no granite paving no improved bus bays



there is also the new entrance to the garden opposite the hugh lane, a new electricity substation (just saying whats happened not that its a positive) and works to the rear of the ambassador
Pilear
Member
 
Posts: 16
Joined: Fri Apr 18, 2008 2:06 pm

Re: Parnell Square redevelopment

Postby ctesiphon » Wed Aug 20, 2008 4:19 pm

gunter wrote:If there was a bus equivalent of the train-spotter, Parnell Square would be the equivalent of Crewe.


http://allaboutbuses.wordpress.com/

http://garaiste.yuku.com/
User avatar
ctesiphon
Old Master
 
Posts: 1949
Joined: Fri Apr 01, 2005 3:39 pm
Location: Dublin

Re: Parnell Square redevelopment

Postby cgcsb » Wed Aug 20, 2008 4:19 pm

Yes there have been some minor improvements like the new enterence to the park. However the more expensive parts of the plan such as new paving and bus bays seem to have gone the way of the Millenium Clock. I always thought it was horrible for the buses to stop on front of those Georgian Buildings. I'd rather if they stopped on a central median/traffic Island similar to the inbound Abbey Street luas stop
cgcsb
Senior Member
 
Posts: 516
Joined: Wed Dec 12, 2007 9:24 pm

Re: Parnell Square redevelopment

Postby Sue » Wed Aug 20, 2008 4:25 pm

It all goes back to Charles Haughey's decision to stop Dublin Bus from building an underground terminus at Temple Bar with a tunnel under the Liffey to another terminus near Capel Street. This would have gotten ALL the buses off the streets, and turned Parnell Square, Fleet St, College Green etc. back into thoroughfares. Instead they are bus car parks, with all that entails in terms of pollution - both noise and air.

Meanwhile bus passengers have to wait on the streets in all weathers, instead of being able to go to an indoor terminus, buy a newspaper, sit down, actually know when the next bus is coming, and generally be civilised.

But no, Haughey wanted a left bank, arty farty quartier and made CIE sell back all the house bank it had accumulated with a view to building a terminus. So we got a giant drinking den instead with not a bus in sight. Well done CJ, you corrupt little crook. RIP :mad:
Sue
Member
 
Posts: 190
Joined: Tue Jan 15, 2002 1:00 am
Location: Dublin

Re: Parnell Square redevelopment

Postby StephenC » Wed Aug 20, 2008 4:27 pm

Please tell me that is tongue in cheek!
User avatar
StephenC
Old Master
 
Posts: 2497
Joined: Mon Jul 16, 2001 12:00 am
Location: Dublin

Re: Parnell Square redevelopment

Postby Pilear » Wed Aug 20, 2008 4:34 pm

agreed, i doubt any major changes will actually happen to parnell square, maybe a repaving but nothing on the scale proposed.

sue, such a large scheme would never have gone ahead (thank god) instead temple bar would have been flattened and turned into a surface carpark for dublin bus and would have only been redeveloped recently... never thought id defend charlie haughy!
Pilear
Member
 
Posts: 16
Joined: Fri Apr 18, 2008 2:06 pm

Re: Parnell Square redevelopment

Postby alonso » Wed Aug 20, 2008 4:49 pm

yep Charlie was a slieveen of the highest order and a scab on the face of irish public life, but saving Temple Bar was a great deed for Dublin. Any fucking ignorant prick who calls it a "drinking den" should be thrown in the Liffey, not literally of course - but taken to task in some way. The fact that Temple Bar has not a car in sight either seems to have escaped our old friend sue...
alonso
Senior Member
 
Posts: 975
Joined: Sun Sep 03, 2006 9:33 pm

Re: Parnell Square redevelopment

Postby Sue » Wed Aug 20, 2008 5:03 pm

good to see the standard of debate is as high as ever. nice one alonso

the car parks were going to be underground. I'm no engineer, but apart from egress points for the buses, I think the impact on the surface would not have been huge. You could still have had a drinking den/cultural quarter overhead
Sue
Member
 
Posts: 190
Joined: Tue Jan 15, 2002 1:00 am
Location: Dublin

Re: Parnell Square redevelopment

Postby alonso » Wed Aug 20, 2008 5:14 pm

it was my understanding, and i'm open to correction, that a massive concrete block would have been built on both sides of the Liffey that looked suspiciously like a giant bus garage for buses like.

I see you're still calling it a drinking den. Christ almighty have you actually been in it at all?
alonso
Senior Member
 
Posts: 975
Joined: Sun Sep 03, 2006 9:33 pm

Re: Parnell Square redevelopment

Postby Sue » Wed Aug 20, 2008 6:12 pm

I have indeed. Fair enough, a "drinking den" is a slightly provocative statement but a "cultural quarter" it ain't. Other than the Irish Film Centre, there is no cultural institution of any note or value.
Sue
Member
 
Posts: 190
Joined: Tue Jan 15, 2002 1:00 am
Location: Dublin

Re: Parnell Square redevelopment

Postby Seanoh » Wed Aug 20, 2008 6:48 pm

Loving the ping-ping between Sue and Alonso. Could we not agree that Temple Bar is part drinking den(s) and, in absence of anywhere else, part cultural quarter. Like Pilear, I never thought I could defend anything Haughian.
Seanoh
Member
 
Posts: 16
Joined: Fri Aug 17, 2007 1:44 pm

Re: Parnell Square redevelopment

Postby hutton » Wed Aug 20, 2008 6:53 pm

Sue wrote:I have indeed. Fair enough, a "drinking den" is a slightly provocative statement but a "cultural quarter" it ain't. Other than the Irish Film Centre, there is no cultural institution of any note or value.


Ah now Sue, methinks you are stirring it up :p

A massive bus depot where Temple Bar is would have been awful.

Granted Temple Bar is more a stag party west bank than it is a left bank, but apart from the IFC, there is the Print Studios and artists studios, the Button Factory, the Childrens' Ark, and some other worthwhile stuff - Green Building, though now dated, was nonetheless a good initiative...

Meanwhile this is all letting Dublin Bus off the hook - [gets on soapbox] - Dublin Bus are simply the worst land users imaginable. They have absolutely no cognisance as to how to use their sizable land bank effectively and efficiently - anytime during the day one can see how their buses choke up Parnell Square and Marlborough Street, meanwhile up at Broadstone during the day, it looks like this:
Image
... and over at Summerhill, it appears like this:
Image
Note the empty deserts of tarmac. Apart from idiotic land mis-usage Dublin Bus are also far from exemplary custodians of important architecture within their care, with Skipton Mulvany's fine Egyptian Revival essay at Broadstone left like this - squalid, semi-derelict and covered with litter:
Image

Truth of it is, far from another depot where Temple Bar is, it would be much better to get Dublin Bus to manage their own existing facilities in an accountable manner. This also includes cutting archaic working practises dating from the time of trams which left workers taking their break in around the pillar. The pillar is long gone, and so too should be consigned to the history bin any reactionary unions that try to stop the city from functioning for their own selfish ends...
hutton
Senior Member
 
Posts: 993
Joined: Tue Dec 28, 2004 10:14 pm
Location: NAMA HQ

Re: Parnell Square redevelopment

Postby alonso » Wed Aug 20, 2008 9:05 pm

ah hutton c'mon Summerhill and Broadstone are miiiiiiiiiiiles away from O Connell Street and therefore nowhere near the mythical land of An Lár. Surely you can't expect all buses to strain their way up Parnell Sq and THEN go all the way up Granby row to Broadstone! crazy talk! As your photos show Broadstone is performing a very important role channeling rainwater and giving litter some decent private open space.

As for Temple Bar - the Arthouse, Project Arts Centre (still there?), Cultivate, recording studios, Temple Lane, IFC, music venues like Dorans and the Music Centre ~(button factory me arse), the food market, tonnes of specialist retail and restaurants, and the IFC. It's a very very different place in the 9 to 5 than at night but sure Joe Duffy and The Star don't write about that. Also, while not fully pedestrianised it's the only pedestrian dominant place of that scale in Ireland, i'd proffer, open to correction. So while it doesn't have an Abbey, a Gate or a National Concert Hall (which it was never intended to ) it's the number and mix of uses which make it unique - still - despite all the boozers and the easy tabloid slurs. It contains a critical mass of variety, if that's not an oxymoron, which add up to a cultural quarter. Don't forget that while the stag and hen parties are staggering all over the shop at 4 am there are people tucked inside less "public" buildings writing songs, recording, painting and making movies etc 24/7.
alonso
Senior Member
 
Posts: 975
Joined: Sun Sep 03, 2006 9:33 pm

Re: Parnell Square redevelopment

Postby gunter » Wed Aug 20, 2008 11:20 pm



That is quite disturbing.

BTW, when did Dublin Bus start washing their buses? A proper Dublin bus is thickly coated in grime. Do these people have no respect for tradition?

*I often had to open a window on the 78A to see if I was anywhere near my stop*.

Image

Leaving the buses aside for the moment, Parnell Square must must be in the text books as how not to do an urban space.

The ratio of road surface to 'square' is absurd. Why did the Georgians put in racetrack width carriageways in the first place? Did they sit up on the piano nobiles gambling on, 'Ben Hur' style, sedan chair races around the square?

Image Image Image

Then there's the Garden of Remembrance. Every other capital city, with a revolutionary past, has a central square with a 'great monument to the Republic' and we get a Chelsea Garden Show exhibit with a kiddies swimming pool that you never see anybody use,

The Garden of Remembrance uses all the worst ideas in 20th century memorial architecture: The morbid classicism, the stiff manicured lawns, the regimented seating, the Zepplin Field steps and proto fuhrer podium, the leaden sculpture, railings painted in gold and royal blue. If this says anything about 1916, it's how completely our cultural consciousness has become mainstream Anglo-Saxon.

I've seen the master plan (posted last year by Graham) and even though it looks far reaching, I don't think it gets anywhere near the radical re-think that a place like Parnell Square needs.

If you look at the evolution of the square, it started out as a philantropic idea, was exploited as a marketing tool, suceeded as a high-end residential venture, developed as a social hub and then slid into terminal decline when fashion moved on and the funcional demands of the institutions began to encroach on the concept.

To tap into the urban potential, the square has to be re-made. As well as being filled up with haphazard buildings, the square never had a southern edge. That should be the first priority, Build a southern edge. Top quality Civic buildings would fit the bill, an extension of the hospital on the right, and the new Central Library (the one they're trying to squeeze into the Ambassador) on the left. What's left, the upper two thirds, should be re-planned as a, hard surface, urban square with pockets of trees, edgy pavilions, a sunken garden if necessary, a great monument to the Republic (definitely). The bus stand thing could even work as an designed-in element of a re-made civic square. It would guarantee constant footfall and keep the space busy and vibrant.
gunter
Old Master
 
Posts: 1923
Joined: Wed Jan 16, 2008 10:33 pm
Location: Dublin

Re: Parnell Square redevelopment

Postby ctesiphon » Wed Aug 20, 2008 11:32 pm

alonso wrote:As for Temple Bar - the Arthouse, Project Arts Centre (still there?), Cultivate, recording studios, Temple Lane, IFC, music venues like Dorans and the Music Centre ~(button factory me arse), the food market, tonnes of specialist retail and restaurants, and the IFC. It's a very very different place in the 9 to 5 than at night but sure Joe Duffy and The Star don't write about that. Also, while not fully pedestrianised it's the only pedestrian dominant place of that scale in Ireland, i'd proffer, open to correction. So while it doesn't have an Abbey, a Gate or a National Concert Hall (which it was never intended to ) it's the number and mix of uses which make it unique - still - despite all the boozers and the easy tabloid slurs. It contains a critical mass of variety, if that's not an oxymoron, which add up to a cultural quarter. Don't forget that while the stag and hen parties are staggering all over the shop at 4 am there are people tucked inside less "public" buildings writing songs, recording, painting and making movies etc 24/7.


Spoken like a young Arthur O'Shaughnessy there, alonso. Very moving indeed. :p

We are the music-makers,
And we are the dreamers of dreams,
Wandering by lone sea-breakers,
And sitting by desolate streams.
World-losers and world-forsakers,
Upon whom the pale moon gleams;
Yet we are the movers and shakers,
Of the world forever, it seems.

With wonderful deathless ditties
We build up the world's great cities,
And out of a fabulous story
We fashion an empire's glory:
One man with a dream, at pleasure,
Shall go forth and conquer a crown;
And three with a new song's measure
Can trample an empire down.
...

Ode (excerpt)

.
User avatar
ctesiphon
Old Master
 
Posts: 1949
Joined: Fri Apr 01, 2005 3:39 pm
Location: Dublin

PreviousNext

Return to Ireland