grangegorman allocated 262 million

Re: grangegorman allocated 262 million

Postby lostexpectation » Wed Sep 26, 2007 6:32 pm

how about high rise here? high rise for universities?
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Re: grangegorman allocated 262 million

Postby kefu » Thu Sep 27, 2007 1:31 pm

Hospital has reduced in size enormously over the years as pyschiatric practices have changed. The numbers of patients there are now down to a little more than 100 so it will be moved to a much smaller site - I'm nearly sure it's on the North Circular Road. Health Board own a lot of land in the area so there'll be no shortage of sites for them.
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Re: grangegorman allocated 262 million

Postby notjim » Thu Aug 14, 2008 2:46 am

Sketches of the DIT masterplan are available here:
http://www.grangegormandevelopmentagency.ie/strategicplan.html
and a longer version available here, listed as June 2008.
http://www.dit.ie/about/grangegorman/
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Re: grangegorman allocated 262 million

Postby johnny21 » Thu Aug 14, 2008 12:16 pm

15,14 and 10 storey buildings is the only high rise. Looks like a great plan, architecture looks brilliant!:D. architects website http://www.darmodyarchitects.com http://www.mryarchitects.com/index_centered.html. albion property building mixed use property on edge of development. very dull looking render!! a few more renders on websites.
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Re: grangegorman allocated 262 million

Postby notjim » Thu Aug 14, 2008 12:21 pm

I agree; on first reading the plan looks fantastic, the established experience with working with Universities really shows. Great stuff.

The one concern is that they will build out the site pretty quickly; what are the long term plans, are they hoping for some of the bus depot or what?
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Re: grangegorman allocated 262 million

Postby johnny21 » Thu Aug 14, 2008 12:35 pm

By looking at the plan they are going to take over 50% of bus depot for future expansion. When looking at the maps for the site they have plenty of land for future expansion why the bus depot?? But its really a great plan, the views of the city from the high rises is great. the development would just blend in with the city.:D
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Re: grangegorman allocated 262 million

Postby notjim » Thu Aug 14, 2008 12:40 pm

I wasn't sure whether the drawings of the bus depot where for future expansion or for commercial development. Assuming though that without the buildings they have marked as future expansions, the plan caters for the existing DIT and leaving out the bus depot they look to me like they are short of expansion possibilities. This would be worry since it would put the circulation spaces and playing fields under development pressure in the long term.
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Re: grangegorman allocated 262 million

Postby ctesiphon » Thu Aug 14, 2008 1:37 pm

I looked at this a few weeks ago, and what struck me was the relatively low density of the overall development. Higher densities on smaller footprints - though not necessarily high rises! - would allow for more expansion in future, whereas the current parkland layout might prove difficult to densify down the line.
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Re: grangegorman allocated 262 million

Postby notjim » Thu Aug 14, 2008 2:02 pm

You thought it was low density; it seemed to me to be about right for a university with 22 thousand students, particularly given the remit of making it clearly permeable and replete with community facilities, something I think the masterplan achieves. The site though isn't huge, not once the HSE part is taken out.
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Re: grangegorman allocated 262 million

Postby ctesiphon » Thu Aug 14, 2008 2:10 pm

Oh, for sure. I was thinking of the entire site, not just the DIT bit.

Also, 'relatively low density' ≠ 'low density'- I was just implying that I expected higher densities in a more concentrated area. This is an urban location but the solution proposed is a more suburban one. And higher densities would be a better safeguard for the playing fields.

At least there are no plans to provide student car parking (hello UCD! I'm looking at you!), though I fear we may yet see the same type of fecky little black and yellow ramps as Trinity has just installed- just about the most cycling unfriendly addition one could make to a road surface. Did Trinity not consider leaving gaps in the ramps? They're modular, ferchrissakes! Just take out one of the bits.

[/rant]
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Re: grangegorman allocated 262 million

Postby notjim » Thu Aug 14, 2008 2:44 pm

How would you increase the density; replace one of the quads with a big big buildings, thicken the buildings to reduce the quad size, get rid of some of these "green fingers"?

[aside] Don't get me started on TCD and bikes, it's a whole tale of amazing disgracefulness, for a start the director of buildings isn't responsible for cycle, as he is for parking, the SU is. [/aside]
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Re: grangegorman allocated 262 million

Postby cgcsb » Thu Aug 14, 2008 4:38 pm

It looks really great and the integrating with the city PDF file shows the first proposed route for luas line D that I've ever seen, No thanks to the RPA. I live in the area and I'll be happy to see this being developed. Does anyone know what time frame we're looking at?
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Re: grangegorman allocated 262 million

Postby tommyt » Fri Aug 15, 2008 9:50 am

ctesiphon wrote:I looked at this a few weeks ago, and what struck me was the relatively low density of the overall development. Higher densities on smaller footprints - though not necessarily high rises! - would allow for more expansion in future, whereas the current parkland layout might prove difficult to densify down the line.


Don't know if you've ever walked those grounds but there are stands and individual examples of spectacular yew trees that must be ancient and their preservation would be central to the design-haven't had time to peruse the masterplans yet-just thought I would stick an initial oar in:)
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Re: grangegorman allocated 262 million

Postby notjim » Fri Aug 15, 2008 10:29 am

tommyt: do look at the masterplan, it does look impressive. The bottom c. third of the part to the west of Grangegorman Rd is playing fields and this includes a tree lined walk, I take it this is the existing tree lined walk you always see in pictures of the site?
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Re: grangegorman allocated 262 million

Postby ctesiphon » Fri Aug 15, 2008 2:20 pm

tommyt wrote:Don't know if you've ever walked those grounds but there are stands and individual examples of spectacular yew trees that must be ancient and their preservation would be central to the design-haven't had time to peruse the masterplans yet-just thought I would stick an initial oar in:)


I haven't walked it, but I'm familiar from reading the documentation and looking at it on Virtual Earth. I'm not advocating a blank slate approach, btw, and retention of the historic buildings and whatever specimen trees remain would be essential in my opinion. That;s the starting point.

notjim-

Re densification- increase the number of floors? Bear in mind, this is possible without going up. Though, in the case of Grangegorman, I do see potential for higher buildings too. My original point was more to do with potential for future densification. As you note, the current layout might increase the pressure on the green spaces, whereas a more concentrated one could specify which lands are for amenity use and which ones are for future development. If not, it could become another UCD Business Park.

Re the fingers- it's a cute concept - oh look, it looks like a hand! - but I'd prefer it if they were called green corridors rather than fingers. Would you bet against someone at some stage referring to DIT 'reaching out into the community'? :)
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Re: grangegorman allocated 262 million

Postby PTB » Sat Aug 16, 2008 7:09 pm

I haven't seen all of the masterplan but I seem to notice that there is no indoor sport hall.
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Re: grangegorman allocated 262 million

Postby PTB » Sat Aug 16, 2008 7:13 pm

ctesiphon wrote: Would you bet against someone at some stage referring to DIT 'reaching out into the community'? :)


I'v heard it said already. Or at least something quite close to it.
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Re: grangegorman allocated 262 million

Postby notjim » Sat Aug 16, 2008 7:34 pm

PTB wrote:I haven't seen all of the masterplan but I seem to notice that there is no indoor sport hall.


Not true, the masterplan includes a sports hall and pool built into the ground so its windows look out over sports fields. It looks very fine.
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Re: grangegorman allocated 262 million

Postby johnny21 » Sun Sep 07, 2008 7:46 am

Plans for the site!!!:D:D
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Re: grangegorman allocated 262 million

Postby gunter » Sun Sep 07, 2008 1:52 pm

That makes up for everything else you've posted in the last few weeks.

This is going to make Trinity look like a mausoleum!
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Re: grangegorman allocated 262 million

Postby notjim » Sun Sep 07, 2008 4:19 pm

gunter wrote:This is going to make Trinity look like a mausoleum!


You'll note elsewhere my belief that it would be in TCD interests to persuade DIT to merge into the University of Dublin, I guess this is part of why; it looks like a great plan. However, you will also note how trinity it is like, playing fields at one end, the rest made up of linked courts, courts and avenues are the secret to good university design.
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Re: grangegorman allocated 262 million

Postby PTB » Sun Sep 07, 2008 4:58 pm

notjim wrote:You'll note elsewhere my belief that it would be in TCD interests to persuade DIT to merge into the University of Dublin, .


What's the advantage of that?
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Re: grangegorman allocated 262 million

Postby gunter » Sun Sep 07, 2008 5:33 pm

notjim wrote:You'll note elsewhere my belief that it would be in TCD interests to persuade DIT to merge into the University of Dublin, I guess this is part of why; it looks like a great plan. However, you will also note how trinity it is like, playing fields at one end, the rest made up of linked courts, courts and avenues are the secret to good university design.


I love this plan. You're quite right there notjim, the similarity with the layout of Trinity struck me instantly. One great oval 'green' of planning fields does give the whole scheme a great university feel and a pattern of 'streets' and squares will keep it tight and real. Great urban scale without resorting to clusters of high rises, one focal campanile, jesus this is perfect.

A lot of fledgeling colleges with image issues, when given an old asylum to inhabit, fall into the trap of trying to ape the imagery of the historic campus model, but this scheme doesn't seem to do that, it goes all out for a contemporary expression, but one that has learned how to do it from the traditional models.

On DIT becoming a wing of Trinity, you're barking up the wrong tree there notjim. I know there is a relationship, I think I may even have some half-assed certificate here somewhere from Trinity that goes with my Dip. Arch from Bolton St., but I think DIT are on a different trajectory and this kind of masterplan will give them great impetus.

The best part of a DIT masterplan like this, combined with a great city centre location, is that it has the potential to push UCD into third place, which is exactly where they deserve to be after making one bad decision after another over the course of the last thirty years.
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Re: grangegorman allocated 262 million

Postby jimg » Sun Sep 07, 2008 7:39 pm

What's the advantage of that?

To have at least one Irish university which could conceivably compete internationally in terms of research?

The huge redundency in the system whereby every 3rd level institute in the country has a department of this or that means that none really achieves the critical mass to draw international academics of note or build successful research units. Even relatively successful departments here are very insular in my experience.

I misspent a couple of years doing post-graduate research; there were 3 or 4 3rd level institutions in Dublin where I could have done my work. While there was some cooperation, the reality was that the respective departments were effectively competing among themselves for students, staff and government/commercial funding.

Separate colleges under the University of Dublin makes sense assuming the departments are also amalgamated. Enrollment numbers of 50,000 doesn't even qualify a university as being substantial by international standards. 100,000 might get you noticed. Such student numbers provide the financial support for active and successful research departments as well as potential post-graduate fodder. In theory the NUI is a single university with constituent colleges but the reality of it's stucture mean that it is misleading to compare its student numbers with those of universities outside Ireland; UCD is the de facto largest "university" in Ireland with about 20k.

Like much of our infrastructure, it is spread too thinly which is inefficient and uncompetitive.
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Re: grangegorman allocated 262 million

Postby gunter » Sun Sep 07, 2008 8:09 pm

jimg wrote:To have at least one Irish university which could conceivably compete internationally in terms of research?

Separate colleges under the University of Dublin makes sense assuming the departments are also amalgamated.

Like much of our infrastructure, it is spread too thinly which is inefficient and uncompetitive.


Surely it is inefficient and uncompetitive only in respect of a small number of uber-technical r + d cyber spooks, for everone else, having four universities of broadly similar scale spread across the city increases the level of competition, no?

I'll admit I don't understand the Oxbridge system where each university seems to be composed of half a dozen separate colleges. I'd assumed it was some kind of Harry Potter thing to do with stripy ties, is there more to it than that?
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