DDDA / Docklands Miscellany

Re: DDDA / Docklands Miscellany

Postby gunter » Fri Jun 27, 2008 4:19 pm

Rory: I understand all of that, you explained it to me before, but everbody knows, including the dogs in the street, that shifting all, or most, of Dublin Port to Bremore is actively being considered. Gleeson mentioned it, Tierney has mentioned it, every newspaper article on the port mentions it, we are being prepared for this, but my point is:

Where's the master plan?

How can you plan for the development of the Poolbeg peninsula when there's no vision for the bay?

What's the point in making wild life amenity orders for every mud flat from Sutton to Seapoint when this is exactly where the city needs to 'front up' to is greatest potential ammenity, Dublin Bay?

Central to all of this is a decision on the future of Dublin Port and instead of an open public debate, with all the options on the table, we're being drip fed hints and rumours. Thanks to your posts, I now know more about the future plans of Drogheda Port than I do about Dublin Port! To be honest with you, before this I thought Drogheda Port harboured three trawlers and a coal boat!
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Re: DDDA / Docklands Miscellany

Postby ctesiphon » Mon Jul 21, 2008 1:21 pm

ctesiphon wrote:A few bits of interest:

The Analog Concert series has just been announced- http://www.analogconcerts.ie


I went to the Taraf de Haidouks concert yesterday (not the only Archiseeker there either!), and my opinion on the square as voiced here last year still holds- this square is not suitable for outdoor performances. There's too much clutter in the way that has to be fenced off or walked around, resulting in an unnecessarily fractured space.

The show itself was great, but that was despite rather than because of the setting. Taraf could play on the Red Cow Roundabout and still win.

Edit: Anyone go to the Iain Sinclair reading/performance? I would have, but it clashed with the Gypsies.
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Re: DDDA / Docklands Miscellany

Postby gunter » Mon Jul 21, 2008 2:27 pm

I'll tell you what I thought of it if you post up that IT article from last Thursday 'Minister (Gorrmley) says taskforce will oversee future of Dublin Bay ports and lands'.
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Re: DDDA / Docklands Miscellany

Postby ctesiphon » Mon Jul 21, 2008 3:17 pm

Bribery? In the planning system? Well I never...!

Minister says taskforce will oversee future of Dublin Bay ports and lands
OLIVIA KELLY

THE FUTURE of Dublin and Dún Laoghaire ports and the Dublin Bay lands is to be determined by a new taskforce announced by Minister for the Environment John Gormley.

The Dublin Bay Task Force, the creation of which was a commitment secured by the Green Party in the programme for government, has been mandated to deliver a master plan which will be a "sustainable vision" for the future use of the entire bay area, from Howth Head to Dalkey.

The taskforce, which has been given no deadline to develop the plan, is to conduct an analysis of the current uses of the bay and an examination of the potential impact of climate change. It will also make proposals for extension or revision of existing amenity areas and wildlife conservation areas, including the Dublin Bay special protection area (SPA).

It has been given a remit to examine economic activities in the bay, particularly the port industries, "including the scope for expanding, reducing or removing the existing Dublin Port facilities over time".

Dublin City Council, within whose jurisdiction the majority of the bay is located, has already published a draft plan for the future use of the bay. This study recommended that, to achieve the greatest environmental and economic benefits, Dublin Port should be moved outside the city.

Mr Gormley said yesterday that the removal of the port from the city was planned "at some future date", but that the future of the port lands would still be considered by the taskforce.

However, Dublin Port Company is a member of the task force and has already applied to An Bord Pleanála to expand its lands by infilling 21 hectares of the bay. Mr Gormley said the application was a matter for the board to determine and not himself, but he said he had made it clear that he would be expanding the SPA for wild birds to include the area the port company was seeking to acquire.

The task force includes Dublin city councillors; council officials from the city, Dún Laoghaire-Rathdown and Fingal; representatives of the Dublin Port Company and Dún Laoghaire Harbour Company; representatives of the Departments of the Environment and Transport and the National Parks and Wildlife Service; environmental groups Coast Watch and Dublin Bay Watch; and the Dublin Docklands Development Authority.


(PS - FYI, the IT is now online for free.)
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Re: DDDA / Docklands Miscellany

Postby gunter » Mon Jul 21, 2008 3:22 pm

Thanks
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Re: DDDA / Docklands Miscellany

Postby StephenC » Mon Jul 21, 2008 3:33 pm

Cte (to yer mates!) I went on Sat night and I thought exactly the same. I actually went specifically because I thought the venue would look cool but it didnt. I have to say though that was a lots to do with the crap layout and the all usual need for barriers, bars and the like.
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Re: DDDA / Docklands Miscellany

Postby ctesiphon » Mon Jul 21, 2008 3:42 pm

Aye- whether it's driven by insurance, fear, or whatever, the result is the feeling of being corralled and surrounded by too many rails- there is no sense of space. And again this year, the water's edge was fenced off. Why doesn't it need to be fenced off the other 362 days of the year?

Some people suggested last year that the problem was the nearby building site, but if anything the greater sense of enclosure this year from the almost finished Aires Mateus (sadly, looks like the general fears expressed here re the cheapness etc. were well founded) and the Libeskind (looks pretty cool with all the formwork in place) made the problem all the more apparent.
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Re: DDDA / Docklands Miscellany

Postby gunter » Mon Jul 21, 2008 4:23 pm

ctesiphon wrote:Why doesn't it need to be fenced off the other 362 days of the year?


Do your negative comments fully take into account that the galvanized steel barriers have been painstakingly painted to colour co-ordinate with the red poles?

Image

On the Aires Mateus: It turns out that the dodgy stone finish on the outside is carried through in dodgy plaster-board on the inside!

Image
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Re: DDDA / Docklands Miscellany

Postby ctesiphon » Mon Jul 21, 2008 4:55 pm

gunter wrote:Do your negative comments fully take into account that the galvanized steel barriers have been painstakingly painted to colour co-ordinate with the red poles?


Ha!

If anything, the fact that they're painted red gives me more cause for concern, if only because it suggests that they're the property of DDDA rather than rented for the occasion. I fear we haven't seen the last of these!

Now if they could provide red-painted temporary cycle parking (well, any additional parking, red or not), that would get my thumbs up. The cycle parking down there is sufficient for most of the year (though as is almost always the case with cycle parking in regenerated areas, function is secondary to form [le sigh]), but there were bikes everywhere yesterday and extra parking should have been provided.

One or two people locked to the fences, but when I tried I was moved along.
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Re: DDDA / Docklands Miscellany

Postby gunter » Tue Jul 22, 2008 1:26 am

I notice from the Olivia Kelly article that Gormley's taskforce for Dublin Bay, which is 'mandated to deliver a master plan . . for the entire bay area from Howth Head to Dalkey' is loaded down with local politcians, council officials and vested interests, everything from bird watching groups to the DDDA, but there's no mention of any architectural input or even the inclusion of the odd urban planner.

This lot are going to 'master plan' Dublin Bay, our greatest single potential asset, and half of them probably can't read a map!

Probably half the cities in the world have grown up on the banks of a river, another significant number developed at a harbour location on the coast and a further, much smaller number, are located on a geographically well defined bay. Dublin is singularly blessed with all three characteristics!

You'd have to put acres of container storage, or a sewage treatment plant, or a power station, or a waste incinerator in the middle of something like that to screw it up.
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Re: DDDA / Docklands Miscellany

Postby StephenC » Tue Jul 22, 2008 10:38 am

gunter wrote:You'd have to put acres of container storage, or a sewage treatment plant, or a power station, or a waste incinerator in the middle of something like that to screw it up.


Stop being so dramatic gunter...that will never happen.
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Re: DDDA / Docklands Miscellany

Postby gunter » Thu Jul 24, 2008 12:16 pm

On Gormley's 'Dublin Bay Task Force', there was a letter to the editor in the IT yesterday complaining that yet more interest groups 'such as the Sandymount & Merion Residents' Association, the Naturalists' Field Club?, seal and dolphin groups, together with fishing and diving interests, amongst others . .' weren't represented.

These are probably all very worthy organisations, but the danger here is that the Task Force, even without these further additions, will see it's role as little more than balancing the competing interests in recommendations that protect a mud flat here and allow for a bit of port expansion there, but the overall opportunity to envisage ways in which Dublin could 'front up' to Dublin Bay will be lost.

There was none of that sort on nonsense in Abercrombie's day, the Warblers had to fend for themselves back then.

Image

I'm not advocating we go back to the Abercrombie Plan of 1922, (although his 'Power Citadel' at Pigeon House is an image to conjure with), but I would argue that the 'Master Plan' that the Task Force are charged with creating should be an urban vision first and foremost, with environmental, commercial and vested interests lower down in the list of priorities.
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Re: DDDA / Docklands Miscellany

Postby tommyt » Thu Jul 24, 2008 12:25 pm

I do love that plan for its sheer audacity. The first thing that always comes to my mind when seeing it is the thousands of disappointed labradors who would never again have the chance to tear furiously along Sandymount strand after their tennis balls:(:(:(
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Re: DDDA / Docklands Miscellany

Postby alonso » Thu Jul 24, 2008 1:10 pm

what the hell is the title on that Map?

"Periods of Execution in 3 Degrees of Urgency"

How did we go from that to "Maximising the City's Potential". I reckon the next Development Plan should be given a catchy title like "Emergency Intervention in the Urban Realm by the 7 Pillars of Environmental Thought". Is Mr. Rose 2008's Abercrombie? Perhaps Tom Morrisey will come back as well...
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Re: DDDA / Docklands Miscellany

Postby tommyt » Thu Jul 24, 2008 1:34 pm

[quote="alonso"]what the hell is the title on that Map?

"Periods of Execution in 3 Degrees of Urgency"

:D Ah well it is from the era when Prussian generals in spiky helmets spoke in that kind of lingo:p
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Re: DDDA / Docklands Miscellany

Postby gunter » Thu Jul 24, 2008 1:48 pm

I hope notjim doesn't see that new road going through the centre of the Trinity cricket pitch!
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Re: DDDA / Docklands Miscellany

Postby gunter » Thu Jul 24, 2008 9:44 pm

I'm goin' have start reading the paper earlier in the day.

On the Dublin Bay Task Force, Cllr. Bronwen Maher has a letter in the IT responding to the letter yesterday from Lorna Kelly (refered to above, the one about the Task Force not having any representation from the Seal and Dolphin Watch etc.)

It says:

'As chair of the Task Force I can assure Ms. Kelly that my main priority is the protection of Dublin Bay's environment and wildlife habitats.'

This isn't going to be a 'Master Plan', it's going to be another Warblers charter. That can't be the extent of our vision, Where's Cuffe? He would know better, why isn't Cuffe the chair of this task force? This is too important for any internal Green Party polticking.

The ill-considered Dun Laoghaire Baths episode has turned everyone against 'development' having any role in this debate, but Dun Laoghaire is a completely different context. There you already had a defined sea front of considerable architectural merit. Most of Dublin Bay has no architectural definition. If the Task Force, (taking it's lead from the stated position of it's chair), sees it's role as protecting the status quo, DCC will push ahead with making a peninsula out of Poolbeg, (fracturing the unity of the Bay in the process), the Port Authority will continue to prevaricate about it's future, while busily reclaiming as much foreshore as they can get away with, the DDDA will continue to sell the line that they're the only people who can deliver anything exciting, so get it while it's goin', and we'll all be dead before the next Abercrombie scale 'Vision for the Future' emerges.
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Re: DDDA / Docklands Miscellany

Postby tommyt » Thu Jul 24, 2008 10:02 pm

[quote="gunter"]I'm goin' have start reading the paper earlier in the day.

On the Dublin Bay Task Force, Cllr. Bronwen Maher has a letter in the IT responding to the letter yesterday from Lorna Kelly (refered to above, the one about the Task Force not having any representation from the Seal and Dolphin Watch etc.)

It says:

'As chair of the Task Force I can assure Ms. Kelly that my main priority is the protection of Dublin Bay's environment and wildlife habitats.'

This isn't going to be a 'Master Plan', it's going to be another Warblers charter. That can't be the extent of our vision, Where's Cuffe? He would know better, why isn't Cuffe the chair of this task force? This is too important for any internal Green Party polticking.

The ill-considered Dun Laoghaire Baths episode has turned everyone against 'development' having any role in this debate, but Dun Laoghaire is a completely different context. There you already had a defined sea front of considerable architectural merit. Most of Dublin Bay has no architectural definition. If the Task Force, (taking it's lead from the stated position of it's chair), sees it's role as protecting the status quo, DCC will push ahead with making a peninsula out of Poolbeg, (fracturing the unity of the Bay in the process), the Port Authority will continue to prevaricate about it's future, while busily reclaiming as much foreshore as they can get away with, the DDDA will continue to sell the line that they're the only people who can deliver anything exciting, so get it while it's goin', and we'll all be dead before the next Abercrombie scale 'Vision for the Future' emerges.[/QUOT


For once I would be in favour of a junket for the great and the good to Rotterdam to see how the gist of a masterplan can be pieced together that can accommodate all stakeholders. We'll all be dead for sure before consensus is reached (unless I can persuade the missus we do a solo run to move back to the higher ground of my beloved Phibsboro to save us from drowning in mud c.2035
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Re: DDDA / Docklands Miscellany

Postby gunter » Mon Nov 03, 2008 11:37 pm

Very interesting article in the I.T. on saturday.

Image

If what is reported is true, the whole Dublin Port / Dublin Bay / Poolbeg debate could really come to a head in the next few months.

Every critical factor seems to be in play at the same time:

[INDENT]Land reclamation for Port expansion, a final land grab before assets are liquidated?
Port relocation; in part, or in full?, medium term, or long term? to Bremore or closer to home?
The Dublin Bay Task Force; multi disciplinary expert group, or bear pit of vested interests?
Dublin Bay; an urban interface, or a wildlife squat?
Poolbeg; pier, or peninsula? sewage plant and waste incinerator, or isolated urban quarter? or a bit of everything?[/INDENT]

The worrying thing is that, if we look at all the parties involved, DDDA, DCC, Dublin Port Co., senior councils, rent a consultants, politicians, bird watchers, residents committees, seal and dolphin groups, where's the visionary leadership going to come from?

If I had to nominate a single person, who just might have the optimism necessary to drive something like this towards a visionary conclusion, it might be our old fiend, Kieran Rose, and it would have the added benefit of keeping him out of harms way for a couple of decades.
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Re: DDDA / Docklands Miscellany

Postby lostexpectation » Tue Nov 04, 2008 4:39 am

is it really cheaper to reclaim land gunter, is it really cheaper to protect that land nad land near from flooding, that commercial question for you!
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Re: DDDA / Docklands Miscellany

Postby gunter » Tue Nov 04, 2008 11:17 am

lostexpectation wrote:is it really cheaper to reclaim land gunter, is it really cheaper to protect that land nad land near from flooding, that commercial question for you!


Land has already been reclaimed, over centuries in a semi-planned way, and more recently, in a ad hoc unplanned way, The question is, do you say, OK, let's stop doing this and leave it the way it is now, protect the mud flats as a habitat, or whatever, or do you say, Let's look at the shapeless mess we've made and actually re-plan it, design an urban/recreational/flood defence/canal quarter, or whatever, interface between the city and the bay as though we intended a 21st century contribution to the form of the city on the scale of the 18th and 19th century contributions.

It doesn't have to be Llandudno, with a prominade and amusments, there must be fifty different options.

It looks totally self evident to me that a city of Dublin's scale and geographical assets should sort out it's relationship with the bay, and maybe do it in a way that resolves future flooding issues at the same time. Putting preservation orders on tracts of mud flat may be green and well intentioned, but it spectacularly misses the bigger picture.
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Re: DDDA / Docklands Miscellany

Postby lostexpectation » Tue Nov 04, 2008 8:08 pm

tell that to new orleans
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Re: DDDA / Docklands Miscellany

Postby gunter » Tue Nov 04, 2008 11:52 pm

I could say; tell that to the Dutch!

All of Dublin's Docklands are built on reclaimed land, everything east of Liberty Hall on the north side and about Moss Street on the south side, is reclaimed land.

Image
Brooking's view south over a watery docklands from two hundred and eighty years ago.

What I was suggesting we do is acknowledge that the current shape of the city, in it's relationship to the bay, is the haphazard consequence of centuries of largely utilitarian decisions, and face up to the challenge of designing that interface now in ways that address all the issues:

The likely relocation of the port,
The consolidation of the city's urban core,
The likely requirement to provide increased flood defences,
The challenge of maximising the enormous recreational amenity that the bay presents,
Wildlife habitat issues.

It makes perfect sense to me!
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Re: DDDA / Docklands Miscellany

Postby gunter » Sun Nov 16, 2008 11:28 pm

Dublin Port Company are doing some very aggressive public relations in the papers and on billboards. I presume that this is some junior manager's idea of demonstrating the Port Company's commitment to stay in Dublin, if only Bord Pleanála will let expand their holding by in-filling the bay!.

Image

I suspect that's a boat load of Icelandic bankers coming over to fund the whole thing.
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Re: DDDA / Docklands Miscellany

Postby notjim » Sun Nov 16, 2008 11:31 pm

Yes "4000 _real_ jobs contributing to the _real_ economy"; I assume they mean that what I do is not a real job and doesn't contribute to the real economy.
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