The destruction of St. Stephen's Green

Re: The destruction of St. Stephen's Green

Postby ctesiphon » Tue Apr 29, 2008 4:04 pm

notjim wrote:We don't have a university quarter, basically.


Way off topic, but had UCD stayed in the Terrace there would have been an educational/institutional axis running from Trinity to UCD, with the National Museum, National Gallery, National Library etc strung along like pearls on a necklace.

Now instead, as proposed in the Maximising the City's Potential document, we have Grangegorman to the Digital Hub. :rolleyes:

Also:
notjim wrote:I do wish we had a coffee shop on the ground floor; a cool one were people hang out all day with their laptops and outrageous young people with tatoos serve coffee and display their art on the walls while cs graduates run their startups from corner tables, like you get around universities in the us.


You forgot 'posting on internet forums'. :D
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Re: The destruction of St. Stephen's Green

Postby gunter » Tue Apr 29, 2008 5:07 pm

notjim wrote:I don't think so; I think they were honest about wanting to do it to increase college income; I have some sympathy with that, the college suffers all the disadvantages of a city center location, planning restrictions, high land cost etc, without fully exploiting the compensating commercial opportunities.


Planning restrictions!, notjim.

They didn't suffer too many planning restrictions on their recent Pearse St. / Sandwich. St. scheme.

Maybe, if TCD want to increase their commercial opportunities, that would be an argument for going with PF's plan to stick 'Grand Central' under the cricket pitch, and split the lolly with RPA.

On the coffee issue. The prices in that ground floor caf in the Naughton building are just obscene. I presume this is why God hit that building with a hurricane a few weeks ago.
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Re: The destruction of St. Stephen's Green

Postby jimg » Tue Apr 29, 2008 5:10 pm

I can't agree with the idea that the TCD cricket pitch (or Hawkins House) would be better locations for what is proposed for the Green. Both are too near existing DART stations to make an interchange with the Interconnector feasible or even desirable and thus would lead to another failed opportunity to provide integration between Dublin's transport modes. The Green stop will integrate DART, metro, Luas and QBC buses like the 46A with sensible distances on all modes to the next stops. To be honest, losing trees in Stephen's Green is a small price to pay for what this station will deliver in terms of pubic transport. This is a hugely significant project; there's been nothing of this scale or ambition in Dublin since victorian times.

It would also create a concentrated triangle of public transport stations (400 or less metres apart) instead of trying to open up more areas of the city to heavy rail and metro.

The permanent loss of some trees is somewhat unfortunate but I generally find the loss of historic building stock in the city far more worthy of indignation than the loss of somewhat featureless, unremarkable and generally relatively young trees.
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Re: The destruction of St. Stephen's Green

Postby alonso » Wed Apr 30, 2008 8:49 am

jimg wrote:I can't agree with the idea that the TCD cricket pitch (or Hawkins House) would be better locations for what is proposed for the Green. Both are too near existing DART stations to make an interchange with the Interconnector feasible or even desirable and thus would lead to another failed opportunity to provide integration between Dublin's transport modes. The Green stop will integrate DART, metro, Luas and QBC buses like the 46A with sensible distances on all modes to the next stops. To be honest, losing trees in Stephen's Green is a small price to pay for what this station will deliver in terms of pubic transport. This is a hugely significant project; there's been nothing of this scale or ambition in Dublin since victorian times.

It would also create a concentrated triangle of public transport stations (400 or less metres apart) instead of trying to open up more areas of the city to heavy rail and metro.

The permanent loss of some trees is somewhat unfortunate but I generally find the loss of historic building stock in the city far more worthy of indignation than the loss of somewhat featureless, unremarkable and generally relatively young trees.


Finally! Jesus, between here and politics.ie I thought I'd completely lost touch with this city. I would add to that a hypothetical scenario whereby the plan was to dig up TCD for 5 years instead. Would the indignation here be identical? Would all you'd have to do be a ctrl+F and replace "Stephen's Green" with "TCD"? IS that a bit harsh perhaps?
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Re: The destruction of St. Stephen's Green

Postby SeamusOG » Wed Apr 30, 2008 6:05 pm

reddy wrote:I always think college green and the lower part of Dame st has huge potential. Dame St is a real urban Boulevard and a quality public realm investment scheme, reducing or eliminating traffic on parts of the street could really improve it.

The buildings on Dame st tend to be quite large and grand. Surely they have the potential to accommodate some of the bigger shop units which grafton street is sorely lacking. (habitat is a prime example)

Of course the open nature of the excavation here would be a major problem but it would not be a huge change in the routing and I'm sure a system could be worked out with surrounding streets to bypass the area.

The reinstatement could then provide the improvements necessary and possibly create a new boulevard and plaza at college green as far as Georges St perhaps.

Suppose its a moot point anyway. The route's well underway and decided by now. Still always nice to dream!

There are some excellent points here. Points which would have been valuable to any preliminary public consultation into the route of the interconnector, even if they did not eventually lead to a change in the route.

However, no such public consultation ever took place. At no stage was there any invitation from any of the relevant bodies for submissions from the public about the route.

Instead we were eventually treated to the sham public consultation last year, where three routes - all of which were almost exactly the same - were presented. And, of course, this was over a year after the RPA gave a clear statement that the interconnector route had already been decided in their documentation relating to the route of the metro.

This is simply a disgrace. For a line of this importance, it is impossible to imagine that such underhand behaviour could ever take place in any other country in Northern Europe.
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Re: The destruction of St. Stephen's Green

Postby missarchi » Wed Apr 30, 2008 10:01 pm

Seamus O'G wrote:Instead we were eventually treated to the sham public consultation last year, where three routes


I was at the consultation at DCC and they flatly refused to give out business cards or provide contact numbers for key people they had a suggestions box and thats about it not that I heard anything...

They will have consultation sooner or later and the later it is the worst it is for them...

I just hope they include the worlds best metro stations in there EIS and look at possible future options, fare structures and comparisons with a diverse range of cities all over europe and the world...

They where proudly showing a foster knock off sketch all I could do was laugh...
oh and then there was the example grand central at st Stephens green which lead me to believe CIE are behind the shabby previous entrance location and the RPA are yellow 2 pack

whats 2 + 1?
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Re: The destruction of St. Stephen's Green

Postby Devin » Wed Apr 30, 2008 11:02 pm

I don't understand the Grand Central Station comparisons. Firstly, wouldn't a European Hauptbanhof or Gare Centrale have been more appropriate? (What continent are we on?) Secondly, this is not the place for a Dublin "Grand Central" type station. There is nothing happening south of this point. The top of Grafton Street marks the end of the busy area between Parnell Square and Stephen's Green. O'Connell Street or College Green is the obvious place.

Not in favour of underground anyway. The timeframe is too long. Dublin needs quicker help. Overground rail and electric buses running on dedicated routes. Get all these idiot single-occupant cars out of the way. That includes taxis. Deregulation is starting to fuck up the city very badly. Taxis seem to perversely pass as "public transport", but their civic and environmental impact is the same as the private car - i.e. extremely negative. In the evenings between Wednesday and Saturday Dublin is just one big ridiculous taxi circus.
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Re: The destruction of St. Stephen's Green

Postby hutton » Thu May 01, 2008 12:03 am

Seamus O'G wrote:However, no such public consultation ever took place. At no stage was there any invitation from any of the relevant bodies for submissions from the public about the route.

Instead we were eventually treated to the sham public consultation last year, where three routes - all of which were almost exactly the same - were presented. And, of course, this was over a year after the RPA gave a clear statement that the interconnector route had already been decided in their documentation relating to the route of the metro.

This is simply a disgrace. For a line of this importance, it is impossible to imagine that such underhand behaviour could ever take place in any other country in Northern Europe.


Ah, youve discovered the Irish planning "process" when it comes to infrastructure projects. The same is happening with the metro :(

For future reference, please bear in mind that the Irish definition of "consultation" regarding infrasturucture projects is simply defending already fixed plans at oral hearings - which inevitably get rubber-stamped anyway, as by that stage theres no alternative. Consultation me hole!
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Re: The destruction of St. Stephen's Green

Postby alonso » Thu May 01, 2008 8:35 am

Devin wrote:I don't understand the Grand Central Station comparisons. Firstly, wouldn't a European Hauptbanhof or Gare Centrale have been more appropriate? (What continent are we on?) Secondly, this is not the place for a Dublin "Grand Central" type station. There is nothing happening south of this point. The top of Grafton Street marks the end of the busy area between Parnell Square and Stephen's Green. O'Connell Street or College Green is the obvious place.


eh... you sure? Maybe not directly south but it's close to the entire D2 office core which now stretches to Harcourt St. The Wexford./Aungier/Camden area is south of it too, which as we all know is where the real night time action is in Dublin
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Re: The destruction of St. Stephen's Green

Postby markpb » Thu May 01, 2008 8:35 am

Devin wrote:Secondly, this is not the place for a Dublin "Grand Central" type station. There is nothing happening south of this point. The top of Grafton Street marks the end of the busy area between Parnell Square and Stephen's Green. O'Connell Street or College Green is the obvious place.


You realise the area south of Stephens Green is an extremely busy business district, rivalling only IFSC for employment in the city centre? It's also the start of the green Luas line - a metro terminus at college green wouldn't connect the two which would be a complete waste.

btw totally agree about the number of taxis, I'm all for deregulation but if the bus lanes are being rendered inoperative because of the number of taxies, we've defeated the purpose.
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Re: The destruction of St. Stephen's Green

Postby Blisterman » Thu May 01, 2008 10:07 am

Too many taxis in Dublin?

There's not enough taxis in Dublin. Try and get one home from town at 3AM on a friday or saturday night, to see what I mean.
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Re: The destruction of St. Stephen's Green

Postby markpb » Thu May 01, 2008 10:11 am

Blisterman wrote:Too many taxis in Dublin?

There's not enough taxis in Dublin. Try and get one home from town at 3AM on a friday or saturday night, to see what I mean.


There are never going to be enough taxis to cope with the glut of people trying to get home when all the bars and nightclubs in the city close. Just like there are never going to be enough enough buses, trains or road space at 9am on weekday.

However there are times when there are too many taxis on the road. Hang around the city centre from 8pm onwards, most of the roads are filled with taxies. There have been several mornings lately where the bus I'm on is stuck in the bus lane because we're in a queue of taxis.
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Re: The destruction of St. Stephen's Green

Postby Blisterman » Thu May 01, 2008 1:11 pm

Ok, fair point.

What Dublin really needs is 24 hour public transport, as well as allowing bars to close when they want.

In London, where I have a much further distance to get home, I have absolutely no trouble getting home, as most buses run 24 hours, albiet at a lower frequency at night, and also the release of people from bars and clubs is much more evenly spread out, over the night,

But, I'm getting off topic here.
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Re: The destruction of St. Stephen's Green

Postby Devin » Thu May 01, 2008 11:57 pm

alonso wrote:eh... you sure? Maybe not directly south but it's close to the entire D2 office core which now stretches to Harcourt St. The Wexford./Aungier/Camden area is south of it too, which as we all know is where the real night time action is in Dublin
Arrgh comments should not always be taken literally! It’s comparatively quiet south of Stephen’s Green.

Everyone's opinions - me included - on where public transport should be focussed are influenced by where we live, work, frequent etc. If we find it annoying that we can’t get from X to Y by public transport, we think public transport should be put in there. Noone is purely for the greater good. Everyone has an agenda.

Btw never liked the Camden-Wexford Street area for going out myself. Can’t think of one good pub except Swan Aungier Street.
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Re: The destruction of St. Stephen's Green

Postby alonso » Fri May 02, 2008 8:48 am

Devin wrote:Arrgh comments should not always be taken literally! It’s comparatively quiet south of Stephen’s Green.

Everyone's opinions - me included - on where public transport should be focussed are influenced by where we live, work, frequent etc. If we find it annoying that we can’t get from X to Y by public transport, we think public transport should be put in there. Noone is purely for the greater good. Everyone has an agenda.

Btw never liked the Camden-Wexford Street area for going out myself. Can’t think of one good pub except Swan Aungier Street.


I know what you meant but what I'm saying is that there is a very high proportion of AM Peak work trips that will benefit from this location over College Green, which though busier with ped traffic during retail hours would not be for work traffic. These work trips are non-voluntary and should be the primary focus of transport planning in the City. As I have said either here or elsewhere, ped traffic on College Green is all through traffic. They are all going somewhere outside of the area - either north to O CSt or south towards SSG as there are no attractions besides TCD which already has a DART and Mainline station in it;s back garden and forms the focus of BAC's southside and cross city services. And to give TCD a Metro Stop would proabably cause a war.

btw I neither work nor live near the Green. My agenda at the minute would be the replacement of the left hand lane on Tara Street with a bike lane, and the removal of all left turns there, but hey I don't see that in T21:confused:

Ah the Swan, but what about Whelans, Village, Anseo, pool at the palace, Devitts, Bleedin Horse, GB Shaw, (near the Pod complex), and for the culchie guards and nurses, Flannerys...
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Re: The destruction of St. Stephen's Green

Postby PTB » Fri May 02, 2008 9:10 am

I took a few more photos of the to-be-destroyed part of the green.

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I think the mature trees will be the greatest loss. I know you can plant relatively mature trees nowadays but still, they won't have the patina of time on them. They'll probably be all quite generic from being grown on a plantation, all straight trunks and even foilage. No marks, no twists, no sign of a past. That will be a very dull corner of the Green for a very long time, while the trees fill out.

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I worry about the rock follys too. Are these easy to take apart, of will they have to be chopped up and thrown away?

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An example of how the trees have shaped themselves over time. How old are most of these trees?

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Try getting this to happen again. I like the way that its made to seem that nature shaped the park, an effect that I fear will be lost for the greater part of this century

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And what about these lads? Where will they go? Thats right, out on the streets.

Is there honestly no other alternative?
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Re: The destruction of St. Stephen's Green

Postby alonso » Fri May 02, 2008 9:12 am

the ducks will most likely use the untouched other 80% of the park. AS will we humans
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Re: The destruction of St. Stephen's Green

Postby Peter Fitz » Fri May 02, 2008 9:22 am

PTB wrote:I think the mature trees will be the greatest loss. I know you can plant relatively mature trees nowadays but still, they won't have the patina of time on them. They'll probably be all quite generic from being grown on a plantation, all straight trunks and even foilage. No marks, no twists, no sign of a past. That will be a very dull corner of the Green for a very long time, while the trees fill out.


Exactly PTB, cheers for the shots. The affected areas will never catch up, its not possible.
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Re: The destruction of St. Stephen's Green

Postby Cute Panda » Fri May 02, 2008 2:06 pm

Time for a reality check:

A) The construction footprint is tiny compared to the massive engineering involved. The RPA and CIE deserve praise for keep about 80% of the Green open to the public.

B) McDonald has been anti metro from day one and this stinks of sour grapes. He was anti-Luas and wanted it underground in the city centre, now 8 years later he is against underground railways and wants more tracks on streets.

C) The Nostalgia Nazis in this country are still trying to hold us back.

D) Dublin need this more for the future well being of the city, more so than harking back to the legacy of the days of powdered wigs

E) Everything will be replaced as it was before and amazingly enough I have been told that trees can grow again.




The title of this thread is so OTT and inflamatory - it should be rebanded to 'Metro/Interconnector Works' without the OP hysterical editorial swing based on a IT article written by a person who does not need to take public transport to work.

I am also saddened by how few people on this board cannot see how this "destruction" of Stephen's Green will over the long run lead to its salvation by making it more accessible to people from the entire Leinster region via DART, Luas and Metro.
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Re: The destruction of St. Stephen's Green

Postby gunter » Fri May 02, 2008 2:32 pm

Cute Panda wrote:
B) McDonald has been anti metro from day one and this stinks of sour grapes. He was anti-Luas and wanted it underground in the city centre, now 8 years later he is against underground railways and wants more tracks on streets.



I think he was more anti some of the daft route options that were proposed for the luas, rather than the luas itself.
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Re: The destruction of St. Stephen's Green

Postby jdivision » Fri May 02, 2008 3:08 pm

The ducks can just move to the canal or Iveagh Gardens. It's not that far!
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Re: The destruction of St. Stephen's Green

Postby GrahamH » Fri May 02, 2008 3:27 pm

Not for this little fella :(

Image

*sobs*

How could you take it away from them, how could you?!

Image


Though fair enough the gulls parading as ducks can feck right off.

Image
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Re: The destruction of St. Stephen's Green

Postby alonso » Fri May 02, 2008 3:33 pm

GrahamH, natural selection will account for those incapable of a short migration ;)
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Re: The destruction of St. Stephen's Green

Postby Peter Fitz » Fri May 02, 2008 4:59 pm

CutePanda wrote: A) The construction footprint is tiny compared to the massive engineering involved. The RPA and CIE deserve praise for keep about 80% of the Green open to the public.


Temporary closure or restricted access during construction is not the fucking point, as stated ad nauseum. Its about the significant & permanent alteration of a landscape set piece as laid out by A.E. Guinness circa 1880, that has matured in tandem, without significant interference.

CutePanda wrote:B) McDonald has been anti metro from day one and this stinks of sour grapes. He was anti-Luas and wanted it underground in the city centre, now 8 years later he is against underground railways and wants more tracks on streets.


I don't agree with McDonald's stance on 'Metro', save to say that if your going to go to the trouble of constructing tunnels capable of accommodating an actual metro type system, you might want to put something a little better than a glorified luas in it. An actual metro travelling @ 120kph, nothing too difficult to achieve, would reach O'Connell Street in 6 minutes.

CutePanda wrote:C) The Nostalgia Nazis in this country are still trying to hold us back.


This nazi grouping obviously now includes me, now perhaps that is actually a little OTT.

CutePanda wrote:D) Dublin need this more for the future well being of the city, more so than harking back to the legacy of the days of powdered wigs


Of course it does, despite the lack of ambition embedded in metro north. There are alternatives.

CutePanda wrote:E) Everything will be replaced as it was before and amazingly enough I have been told that trees can grow again.


Obviously the aesthetic benefit derived from a 120 year+ maturation process means nothing to you.

Cute Panda wrote:The title of this thread is so OTT and inflamatory - it should be rebanded to 'Metro/Interconnector Works' without the OP hysterical editorial swing based on a IT article written by a person who does not need to take public transport to work.


If as a result of these works, substantial felling in the affected areas of the green is necessary, coupled with the introduction of several above ground installations, it is reasonable to suggest that the integrity of the green as set out in 1880 will in fact be destroyed.
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Re: The destruction of St. Stephen's Green

Postby Pilear » Fri May 02, 2008 5:14 pm

These works are a neccessity for the progression of the whole city and as long as the affected area of the green isnt reinstated with a generic chinese granite and stainless steel 'plaza' im grudgingly in favour.
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