The destruction of St. Stephen's Green

Re: The destruction of St. Stephen's Green

Postby MrX » Mon Apr 28, 2008 11:40 am

Upper O'Connell Street might actually make more sense from a planning and urban development point of view too. It strikes me as yet another example of building EVERYTHING south of the river.
The City Centre should naturally focus on O'Connell Street this is where any central station hub should be.

It would also provide much better access to the IFSC and Docklands developments.

Stephen's Green really isn't the centre of Dublin, rather it's the centre of a fairly small inner city Georgian suburb.

I think a big metro hub, if done tastefully and well could form part of the rebirth of O'Connell Street and tie in very nicely with the huge project about to kick off on the Arnotts site.

There's also a better chance of feeding other tramways into a hub there than there ever will be at Stephen's Green.

E.g. if a tram link were to be built up through Dorset Street, Drumcondra, Whitehall etc

It also ties into pretty much all of the northside bus routes and has easy access to Connolly station which is a major commuter hub.
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Re: The destruction of St. Stephen's Green

Postby notjim » Mon Apr 28, 2008 11:57 am

It has to interchange with the interconnector!
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Re: The destruction of St. Stephen's Green

Postby SeamusOG » Mon Apr 28, 2008 12:15 pm

gunter wrote:The way I understood the Frank McDonnald article, he was hinting that 'Grand Central Station' should be put in some other location, because of the impact on the Green.

If that is the argument, what are the alternative locations?

The only other, centrally located, site of the acreage apparently required, that comes to mind is Upper O'Connell Street.


The original (1970s) route for a link between the Kildare Line and the Northern Line was designed so that it would have travelled under the College Green/Dame Street/Temple Bar area. If it was feasible to build such a line in the 1970s then it's hard to see how it would not be feasible now.

The main reason why a longer, more circuitous and hence more expensive route was chosen for the interconnector, was that this would enable it to "connect with the LUAS". As outlined by Frank Allen recently to the joint committee on transport, this reason has now been removed by the selection of the preferred route for the LUAS link-up - a route which travels via College Green.

At the time it was first proposed, it would have been suicide for any politician, DTO apparatchik, DOT mandarin or anyone else involved in public transport to suggest a route for the interconnector which did not "connect with the LUAS" - the shiny LUAS with its "shiny, happy people" as Mary O'Rourke called the tram's passengers. This was all to do with integration, we were told, despite the fact that such a route would have been fairly studiously avoiding the majority of the city's bus routes, and the passengers on those buses.

I firmly believe that it makes more sense for the interconnector to be built along the College Green / Dame Street axis. In the absence of any other work, everybody knows that a LUAS stop at College Green would be considerably busier than a stop at St. Stephen's Green, indicating that more people want to go to and from there. It would therefore make considerable sense to build the much higher capacity interconnector through the former location.

Anybody who has ever been in College Green knows that there is more than enough space for an underground interchange there. And, of course, digging up this area to place an interchange there need have no long term impact, as the city's plan is to eventually pedestrianise it.

That takes the interconnector out of the St. Stephen's Green equation.

The second thing to be done to minimise destruction of St. Stephen's Green is to plan to build the metro, as part of the first phase of construction, out past the Grand Canal. This would (i) remove the need for turnback facilities and whatnot in St. Stephen's Green, which seem to be the cause of much of the likely work in the park, and (ii) provide some useful transport facilities to areas south of the canal.

The area around Harold's Cross, for example, is home to a number of places where boring machines, works exits, etc., could reasonably be situated.
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Re: The destruction of St. Stephen's Green

Postby hutton » Mon Apr 28, 2008 12:20 pm

MrX wrote:Upper O'Connell Street might actually make more sense from a planning and urban development point of view too. It strikes me as yet another example of building EVERYTHING south of the river.
The City Centre should naturally focus on O'Connell Street this is where any central station hub should be.

It would also provide much better access to the IFSC and Docklands developments.

Stephen's Green really isn't the centre of Dublin, rather it's the centre of a fairly small inner city Georgian suburb.

I think a big metro hub, if done tastefully and well could form part of the rebirth of O'Connell Street and tie in very nicely with the huge project about to kick off on the Arnotts site.

There's also a better chance of feeding other tramways into a hub there than there ever will be at Stephen's Green.

E.g. if a tram link were to be built up through Dorset Street, Drumcondra, Whitehall etc

It also ties into pretty much all of the northside bus routes and has easy access to Connolly station which is a major commuter hub.


:D

Lol I presume you are taking the piss - to have a tram run on top of metro route all the way out, with nothing connecting..
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Re: The destruction of St. Stephen's Green

Postby Peter Fitz » Mon Apr 28, 2008 12:40 pm

gunter wrote:If that is the argument, what are the alternative locations?


Trinity's large green spaces has crossed my mind, i know they'd most likely have a fit which perhaps could be appeased by an investment package - they would have to be compensated in some way for the temporary loss of recreation space.

Centering both metro north & interconnector around trinity would allow for entrances from college green, nassau, pearse and westland row with a link up to luas if that bloody bx line is constructed. There's nothing easier to reinstate than grass.

Image

As said, metro north should at least continue to a green space south of the canal to allow for future expansion with minimal disruption, but then that might just make too much sense to the rpa.
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Re: The destruction of St. Stephen's Green

Postby fergalr » Mon Apr 28, 2008 1:45 pm

MrX wrote:Is there no way that they could use one of the ugly office buildings on the Green e.g. the eircom HQ which is currently up for sale as the station head i.e. the parts where the public will actually access.

Then use a tunnel boring machine and minimally invasive access to put the rail tunnels under the Green itself.

On the plus side you'd also have a metro station that would have several floors of commercial space above it that could actually make money!

I don't see why they would need to opt for an 'open cast mining' approach to the park itself! Fair enough if they have to dig up the grass or the paths, but the trees should not be touched!


Would someone please explain to me how the London Tube can snake its way under an old city centre, under buildings older than it and its stations without swathes of urban fabric being demolished?
In fact, the Jubilee Line got attention precisely because it was the first to do this "open cast" method of construction - I believe. And on that point, it was done like that only on that line because the majority of its stations did not pass through sensitive areas of conservation. And, because of the open cast method, they built wonderfully airy stations. What we are doing - astonishingly - is going to be both and neither. Fan-tastic.
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Re: The destruction of St. Stephen's Green

Postby missarchi » Mon Apr 28, 2008 7:59 pm

Trinity have made it clear they don't want the metro anywhere below there buildings because of a so called water table?
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Re: The destruction of St. Stephen's Green

Postby notjim » Mon Apr 28, 2008 8:04 pm

That's not strictly true, the point was that the proposed route of the metro brought it under the Ussher library at a shallower depth than the piles for the library, the piles are quite deep because the college is build on mud.
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Re: The destruction of St. Stephen's Green

Postby Peter Fitz » Mon Apr 28, 2008 11:08 pm

notjim wrote:That's not strictly true, the point was that the proposed route of the metro brought it under the Ussher library at a shallower depth than the piles for the library, the piles are quite deep because the college is build on mud.


wasn't aware of that notjim, stil possible though ?
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Re: The destruction of St. Stephen's Green

Postby Rory W » Tue Apr 29, 2008 8:23 am

There is a culverted river (The Styne) than runs under TCD and Hawkins st area
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Re: The destruction of St. Stephen's Green

Postby alonso » Tue Apr 29, 2008 8:23 am

why is it ok to dig the crap out of an educational facility that caters for almost 20,000 people but not a park that caters for far less and on a voluntary basis ie people don't work or attend it for college?

About 1/6 of the Green will be closed for 5 years at most - more likely 3-4. Is the hand wringing and wailing not slightly ott?
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Re: The destruction of St. Stephen's Green

Postby Peter Fitz » Tue Apr 29, 2008 9:46 am

alonso wrote:why is it ok to dig the crap out of an educational facility that caters for almost 20,000 people but not a park that caters for far less and on a voluntary basis ie people don't work or attend it for college?


Because its large recreation space can be reinstated exactly as is & can easily be accessed from nassau st. I'm talking college park here, not the entirety of its 47 acres. Never mind the benefit to trinity of having the best transport links possible, the city would have a centrally located transport hub, with entrances from north, south, east & west. In any case it was a suggestion as a possible alternative & obviously not likely.

I'd like to see foot fall through the green in one year, i'd suggest far in excess of 20k stop to enjoy its peace, & a multiple pass through.

Its not about temporary closure of the green, if they said it was to be closed in full for whatever number of years & will re open without its integrity destroyed, i'd say ok, we need the metro. That is not what the the RPA & IE are proposing to do.

If you think my 'wailing' is ott, grand.
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Re: The destruction of St. Stephen's Green

Postby notjim » Tue Apr 29, 2008 9:55 am

Its moot; the route won't be altered now and running under college park, missing the library etc, would be significant route change, but to play this game, as a fraction of college park the disruption would not have been too great, but the college, and particularly the students some of whose entire college experience would fall within the works period, would have been very opposed to the noise disruption to the library, perhaps, though, the college would have been persuadable if, in return, it was allowed to develop the nassau st car park, the car park along the southern edge of college park. who knows.
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Re: The destruction of St. Stephen's Green

Postby alonso » Tue Apr 29, 2008 10:40 am

Peter FitzPatrick wrote:Because its large recreation space can be reinstated exactly as is & can easily be accessed from nassau st. I'm talking college park here, not the entirety of its 47 acres. Never mind the benefit to trinity of having the best transport links possible, the city would have a centrally located transport hub, with entrances from north, south, east & west. In any case it was a suggestion as a possible alternative & obviously not likely.

I'd like to see foot fall through the green in one year, i'd suggest far in excess of 20k stop to enjoy its peace, & a multiple pass through.

Its not about temporary closure of the green, if they said it was to be closed in full for whatever number of years & will re open without its integrity destroyed, i'd say ok, we need the metro. That is not what the the RPA & IE are proposing to do.

If you think my 'wailing' is ott, grand.


Do you reckon 20,000 a day use Stephen's Green? i dunno about that but it would be interesting to see how many would be discommoded (surely in the EIS :rolleyes:)

And of course the 1st thing that would happen in your scenario would be the Liveline callers with their "fucking poshie southside west brits get their own bleedin Metro Stop warraboud us out here in shitsville" etc etc

The point is SSG attracts more work, lesiure and retail trips than College Green. most peds on College Green aren't actually ending their trips there. They are on their way to retail on either side of the River, which will all be served directly by MN.
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Re: The destruction of St. Stephen's Green

Postby notjim » Tue Apr 29, 2008 10:44 am

alonso: for the record and completely ot, southsiders go to ucd; the tcd has a remarkably geographically even in its intake, it has the most geographically dispersed undergraduate body of any of the universities, it might have more than its share of west brits though.
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Re: The destruction of St. Stephen's Green

Postby alonso » Tue Apr 29, 2008 10:58 am

notjim I went to both. I know. I was paraphrasing a hypothetical conversation by someone who may not know that ;)
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Re: The destruction of St. Stephen's Green

Postby Peter Fitz » Tue Apr 29, 2008 11:48 am

alonso wrote:Do you reckon 20,000 a day use Stephen's Green? i dunno about that but it would be interesting to see how many would be discommoded (surely in the EIS )


You miss the point, its not about people being temporarily discommoded.

No point either getting bogged down in numbers or this argument, i stated 20k per year, not per day, trinities student population is just over 15k, i doubt either of us have accurate daily footfall & i'm not suggesting that the green is higher by day.

alonso wrote:SSG attracts more work, lesiure and retail trips than College Green


But not college green, nassau st, pearse st & westland row, no need for an entrance within the confines of the college itself.

No gain in going further with hypothetics, if your not bothered about the green being permanentaly & significantly altered, the point of this thread, well fair enough.
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Re: The destruction of St. Stephen's Green

Postby gunter » Tue Apr 29, 2008 12:57 pm

I think PF's point is fair enough.

If the task is to find a patch of Dublin (with potentially good onward transportation links), that you can turn into a vast open-cast mine for a couple of years, the cricket pitch in TCD is one of the few options. It would also be (just) within underground travelator distance of the Luas bx line and the DART at Westland Row.

It could never happen though, because any subteranean 'Grand Central Station' is going to come with multiple levels of retail opportunity etc. and, if TCD owned the title to the ground, how would the RPA be able to cream off the lease values.

As an aside, did Trinity not float the idea of developing their Nausau Street frontage a short while back, under the guise of improving the college's 'urban interface' or some such?
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Re: The destruction of St. Stephen's Green

Postby reddy » Tue Apr 29, 2008 1:23 pm

I always think college green and the lower part of Dame st has huge potential. Dame St is a real urban Boulevard and a quality public realm investment scheme, reducing or eliminating traffic on parts of the street could really improve it.

The buildings on Dame st tend to be quite large and grand. Surely they have the potential to accommodate some of the bigger shop units which grafton street is sorely lacking. (habitat is a prime example)

Of course the open nature of the excavation here would be a major problem but it would not be a huge change in the routing and I'm sure a system could be worked out with surrounding streets to bypass the area.

The reinstatement could then provide the improvements necessary and possibly create a new boulevard and plaza at college green as far as Georges St perhaps.

Suppose its a moot point anyway. The route's well underway and decided by now. Still always nice to dream!
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Re: The destruction of St. Stephen's Green

Postby kefu » Tue Apr 29, 2008 1:31 pm

What about Hawkin's House - kill three birds with one stone.
Get rid of one of the city's biggest eyesores, you have a huge site for construction, then relocate O'Connell Street stop to Upr O'Connell Street (somewhere around the ski park :-) , thus negating need for Parnell Square stop.
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Re: The destruction of St. Stephen's Green

Postby notjim » Tue Apr 29, 2008 2:04 pm

gunter wrote:As an aside, did Trinity not float the idea of developing their Nausau Street frontage a short while back, under the guise of improving the college's 'urban interface' or some such?


I don't think so; I think they were honest about wanting to do it to increase college income; I have some sympathy with that, the college suffers all the disadvantages of a city center location, planning restrictions, high land cost etc, without fully exploiting the compensating commercial opportunities.
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Re: The destruction of St. Stephen's Green

Postby hutton » Tue Apr 29, 2008 3:33 pm

notjim wrote:I have some sympathy with that, the college suffers all the disadvantages of a city center location, planning restrictions, high land cost etc, without fully exploiting the compensating commercial opportunities.


*Cough, cough* dead hand all along western side of Westland Row for years, need I say more?
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Re: The destruction of St. Stephen's Green

Postby notjim » Tue Apr 29, 2008 3:38 pm

hutton wrote:*Cough, cough* dead hand all along western side of Westland Row for years, need I say more?


I didn't say the college wasn't at fault, maybe even grievously at fault: oddly enough my office is in Westland Row and I do wish we had a coffee shop on the ground floor; a cool one were people hang out all day with their laptops and outrageous young people with tatoos serve coffee and display their art on the walls while cs graduates run their startups from corner tables, like you get around universities in the us. Well when I run the college . . .
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Re: The destruction of St. Stephen's Green

Postby hutton » Tue Apr 29, 2008 3:44 pm

notjim wrote:I didn't say the college wasn't at fault: oddly enough my office is in Westland Row and I do wish we had a coffee shop on the ground floor; a cool one were people hang out all day with their laptops.


Jayzus, ye already have Caffe di Napoli on your street - isnt having the city's best cafe good enough?


Some people just have it too good already :p
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Re: The destruction of St. Stephen's Green

Postby notjim » Tue Apr 29, 2008 3:55 pm

. . . and a sit down version of Caffe di Napoli (Flux) in the Science Gallery which is excellent if you are feeling flush, but we don't have the sort of cafe where in people work; these are typical of university areas in the US and the continent. We don't have a university quarter, basically.
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