Carlton Cinema Development

Re: Carlton Cinema Development

Postby StephenC » Mon Dec 11, 2006 3:32 pm

I completely agree. Preserving this building as a NM is a nonsense. How many other more worthy sites have been sacrificed through the years without such a high profile protest. I think its make future development of this area (sorely needed as it is becoming a total kip) very difficult.
User avatar
StephenC
Old Master
 
Posts: 2497
Joined: Mon Jul 16, 2001 12:00 am
Location: Dublin

Re: Carlton Cinema Development

Postby jdivision » Mon Dec 11, 2006 4:50 pm

StephenC wrote:I think its make future development of this area (sorely needed as it is becoming a total kip) very difficult.

If you see Clinton's plans for a memorial using the building you'll see it's very easy for it to be integrated into the development.
jdivision
Senior Member
 
Posts: 802
Joined: Wed Sep 28, 2005 4:34 pm

Re: Carlton Cinema Development

Postby PVC King » Mon Dec 11, 2006 5:02 pm

A fossilised, isolated mid terrace house in a shopping centre would not work well; A capital contribution ring fenced to either St Enda's, the GPO or even Thom Clarke's shop would have made sense but this........

What exactly will we get, a georgian house with edwardian facade and 1970's aluminium shop front with large wooden shoring to hold it up on either side.

This is not heritage this is a farce
PVC King
 

Re: Carlton Cinema Development

Postby lunasa » Mon Dec 11, 2006 5:10 pm

They can move it and put it inside the Bertie Bowl, or under the waterfall in the National Acquatic Centre. Better still on the tarmacadam at Leinster Lawn. Will Leas Cross get status too?
lunasa
Member
 
Posts: 79
Joined: Mon Mar 28, 2005 6:09 pm
Location: Milano

Re: Carlton Cinema Development

Postby cgcsb » Tue Feb 12, 2008 12:59 pm

Why hasn't any body posted hear in so long? Ther are conflicting stories floating around. Some say that the site as well as the vacant site next door will be a new public plaza. Others say that the carlton, the old North Dublin county council, the carlton and the vacant site in between will be a multi story shopping center with exits on moore street. What will happen? Surely it's not acceptable to have such a large section of the city's main street be unused
cgcsb
Senior Member
 
Posts: 516
Joined: Wed Dec 12, 2007 9:24 pm

Re: Carlton Cinema Development

Postby jdivision » Tue Feb 12, 2008 1:28 pm

The plaza is part of the shopping centre plan
jdivision
Senior Member
 
Posts: 802
Joined: Wed Sep 28, 2005 4:34 pm

Re: Carlton Cinema Development

Postby TLM » Tue Feb 12, 2008 1:33 pm

Are there any drawings of what's proposed? I find it kinda hard to visualise.. Thanks
TLM
Member
 
Posts: 138
Joined: Tue Nov 16, 2004 8:29 pm

Re: Carlton Cinema Development

Postby jdivision » Tue Feb 12, 2008 1:43 pm

The images and drawings I've seen - which aren't reproducable - show a plaza on O'Connell Street itself and then a short street leading into what I assume is currently the Royal Dublin Hotel, another street back to Moore Street and a larger, wider street down to Henry St with a minor square there. The building images I've seen are about six storeys, very boring. But they were prepared at least two years ago so I'm sure it's been improved.

There was some details a couple of days ago in The Sunday Business Post:
Developer Joe O'Reilly wrote to the Railway Procurement Agency (RPA) criticising the decision to reduce the number of Metro North stops in Dublin city centre. O'Reilly said that the decision to reduce the number of stations from three to two "is a weak compromise". In a letter written in October 2006, and released to The Sunday Business Post under the Freedom of Information Act, he said that the southern part of the city centre will "yet again be strengthened by the current proposal which dedicates one station (St Stephen's Green) to the south, while the second station is shared; the northside has no station. Furthermore the positioning of a station on O'Connell Bridge will serve to create greater division between north and south Dublin."

The RPA has said it will consider a third city centre stop at Parnell Square East, after a request from Dublin City Council. That station would be close to a number of properties owned by O'Reilly, including the former Carlton cinema site and adjoining land on O'Connell Street and a 50 per cent stake in the Ilac Centre to the rear of that site.

"It is true that a metro exit at Abbey Street would be within 300 metres of our development but we are not looking to just create a successful shopping district quarter," O'Reilly continued. "We see our development as an engine for regeneration - simply put, we want a successful development in a vibrant, prosperous part of the town. Together with the metro we can rejuvenate Parnell Square/Dominick Street and the surrounding areas, making them as attractive as St Stephen's Green on the south side."

O'Reilly said that if the decision is made to stick to two stations they should be equitably positioned with one on the southside and one on the northside. He said the proposed station under O'Connell Bridge was in an area already congested with pedestrians and would be a disaster. "It just does not make sense to put all the commuters and tourists through streets crowded with shoppers to get to the metro," he wrote. "By positioning the second station at north O'Connell Street/Parnell Square east we will put passengers away from the areas of congestion."

O'Reilly continued that the new public square planned for part of the Carlton cinema site would be able to accommodate a metro exit and contrasted that situation with Oxford Circus tube station in London which has to close regularly at peak time because of passenger congestion. "There is only one chance to get this right and the decisions made now will impact on generations to come," he concluded.

An earlier submission, drawn up by TJ O'Connor & Associates on behalf of O'Reilly's Chartered Land, said that if one "enters the Ilac from Henry Street and exits on Parnell Street is is like going into a time-maching, regressing about 15 years to pre-Celtic Tiger days". Other documents show Chartered's redevelopment of the Carlton site will involve constructing a 92,900 square metre development.


RPA chairman Padraic White responded that following talks with stakeholders in the O'Connell Street area it became clear that a stop there would have had significant drawbacks in terms of the likely impact on businesses and traffic. The station under the Liffey was then chosen because there would be less construction impact and because it offered better connections to the Luas red line.

He said he did not agree with O'Reilly's view that the stop under the Liffey would create additional congestion problems because the station's location would reduce the number of people using O'Connell Bridge. Up to six entrances in total will be used to allow passengers disperse from the station and the footways on O'Connell Bridge will be widened.
jdivision
Senior Member
 
Posts: 802
Joined: Wed Sep 28, 2005 4:34 pm

Re: Carlton Cinema Development

Postby TLM » Tue Feb 12, 2008 2:27 pm

Thanks for that jdivision. I'll be interested to see the details as more become available.
TLM
Member
 
Posts: 138
Joined: Tue Nov 16, 2004 8:29 pm

Re: Carlton Cinema Development

Postby fergalr » Tue Feb 12, 2008 2:33 pm

Would a plaza on Upper O'Connell St not ruin the roofline? I mean, I know it's been a vacant lot for years, but now that will actually be by design!
fergalr
Senior Member
 
Posts: 513
Joined: Wed Nov 30, 2005 3:33 pm
Location: Howth, Co. Dublin

Re: Carlton Cinema Development

Postby jdivision » Tue Feb 12, 2008 2:34 pm

Well planning being sought this month so not long to wait
jdivision
Senior Member
 
Posts: 802
Joined: Wed Sep 28, 2005 4:34 pm

Re: Carlton Cinema Development

Postby StephenC » Tue Feb 12, 2008 2:36 pm

I think there is a good arguement for breaking the monotony of the streetscape along here (formally as you say fergair) by creating a new street in towards Moore Street. This block is very large and impermiable and is probably one of the reasons why people dont walk further up O'Connell Street
User avatar
StephenC
Old Master
 
Posts: 2497
Joined: Mon Jul 16, 2001 12:00 am
Location: Dublin

Re: Carlton Cinema Development

Postby fergalr » Tue Feb 12, 2008 2:42 pm

Well thru walkers, to use a hiking reference :D walk past anyway. If there's a destination midway up the street, like another shopping centre, then people will go there plaza or no. Is the Fingal building for the knock as well?
fergalr
Senior Member
 
Posts: 513
Joined: Wed Nov 30, 2005 3:33 pm
Location: Howth, Co. Dublin

Re: Carlton Cinema Development

Postby GrahamH » Tue Feb 12, 2008 3:02 pm

Yep. Just to be clear, the proposed Carlton redevelopment is a world away from the dinky shopping mall first proposed ten years ago, and different again to that of two years ago. It is now approaching Arnotts proportions. By no means a bad thing, but what is of concern is that the city is increasingly being viewed by developers in terms of blocks. Extraordinarily, in quiet 1970's style, this consortium now own virtually all of Upper O'Connell Street west - 'Carlton' is a misnomer now.

What is equally of concern is that DCC have recently published a Development Brief specific to the regeneration of the Carlton site that conveniently endorses baffling height at precisely the locations proposed by the developers. You couldn't make it up.

Agreed a new street with well-designed corners is welcome mid-way on Upper west.
GrahamH
Old Master
 
Posts: 4589
Joined: Tue Oct 15, 2002 11:24 am
Location: Ireland

Re: Carlton Cinema Development

Postby StephenC » Tue Feb 12, 2008 3:28 pm

There really needs to be some excellent architecture here though, not simply a suburban style shopping mall or even the large scale boxes proposed for parts of the Arnotts site. I would expect to see a lot of high quality stonework and some key feature corners and facades to integrate the whole complex into the street. I am VERY excited to see what is proposed. Its curious that very few details of the scheme have leaked into the public domain.

Incidentially I thought Joe O'Reilly made some pertinent observations in his submssion to the RPA on Metro North. Just as the St Stephen's Green Centre would be the ideal spot to develop the interchange station between DART Underground, Metro, Luas and bus (knocking the existing and redeveloping), the "Carlton" site should also be seen as a valuable working area for metro in this part of town. Could they even start the boring tunnel here (each way) and use the whole site as a works area for the city. There would be a lot less impact.
User avatar
StephenC
Old Master
 
Posts: 2497
Joined: Mon Jul 16, 2001 12:00 am
Location: Dublin

Re: Carlton Cinema Development

Postby cgcsb » Tue Feb 12, 2008 5:35 pm

Would I be correct in saying that the new devlopement will take up the carlton the vacant site and the old countyu council offices? if one looks at that, It is a very larfge scale developement. Possibly the largest in the city centre these days. If it has exits onto henry street and moore street, that means some historic buildings must be knocked
cgcsb
Senior Member
 
Posts: 516
Joined: Wed Dec 12, 2007 9:24 pm

Re: Carlton Cinema Development

Postby StephenC » Tue Feb 12, 2008 9:47 pm

None worth keeping that I can see. Just some tat along Moore Street, except for the three "national monuments".
User avatar
StephenC
Old Master
 
Posts: 2497
Joined: Mon Jul 16, 2001 12:00 am
Location: Dublin

Re: Carlton Cinema Development

Postby jdivision » Wed Feb 13, 2008 12:07 am

cgcsb wrote:Would I be correct in saying that the new devlopement will take up the carlton the vacant site and the old countyu council offices?

Plus the Royal Dublin Hotel, plus the buildings on Moore St to rear as far north as Conways pub. At the other end it'll include Permanent tsb on henry st amongst others it's a million square foot development don't forget - just under 25 per cent larger than Dundrum Town Centre phase one afaik. There'll probably be good links to the Ilac too - O'Reilly owns 50 per cent of it. The plan originally was for a glazed street there between them. DCC has said it'll move stallholders in its agreement with O'Reilly but is officially denying that's policy
jdivision
Senior Member
 
Posts: 802
Joined: Wed Sep 28, 2005 4:34 pm

Re: Carlton Cinema Development

Postby hutton » Wed Feb 13, 2008 12:31 am

jdivision wrote:Plus the Royal Dublin Hotel, plus the buildings on Moore St to rear as far north as Conways pub. At the other end it'll include Permanent tsb on henry st amongst others it's a million square foot development don't forget - just under 25 per cent larger than Dundrum Town Centre phase one afaik. There'll probably be good links to the Ilac too - O'Reilly owns 50 per cent of it. The plan originally was for a glazed street there between them. DCC has said it'll move stallholders in its agreement with O'Reilly but is officially denying that's policy


Indeed its massive alright. Regarding StephenC's points on the standard of architecture, what is proposed is very dramatic, but I am already already criticisms as to the quality of certain elements. Also that a large part of the apartments are to be contained in what is likely to be a contentious aspect, namely what Michael Smith refered to as a "ski slope", is problematic. Certain aspects of it would seem to be well considered such as pedestrian flows, imo.

The matter of the stallholders is one to watch. The level of squalor on the street now is remarkable, but then one wonders in whose interests would it not be in if it was any other way.
hutton
Senior Member
 
Posts: 993
Joined: Tue Dec 28, 2004 10:14 pm
Location: NAMA HQ

Re: Carlton Cinema Development

Postby Peter Fitz » Wed Feb 13, 2008 10:28 am

hutton wrote:Regarding StephenC's points on the standard of architecture, what is proposed is very dramatic, but I am already already criticisms as to the quality of certain elements.


jdivision wrote:The images and drawings I've seen - which aren't reproducable - show a plaza on O'Connell Street itself and then a short street leading into what I assume is currently the Royal Dublin Hotel, another street back to Moore Street and a larger, wider street down to Henry St with a minor square there. The building images I've seen are about six storeys, very boring. But they were prepared at least two years ago so I'm sure it's been improved.



So hutton it sounds like you've seen more detailed / recent plans than jd ... do you declare yourself impressed overall ?

Of course i'll be holding you completely responsible if you suggest i've something to look forward to here & it turns out that I don't :D ...
that 'very dramatic' bit has me intrigued !
Peter Fitz
 

Re: Carlton Cinema Development

Postby TLM » Wed Feb 13, 2008 10:32 am

Would these works affect the Dublin Bus building on the street?
TLM
Member
 
Posts: 138
Joined: Tue Nov 16, 2004 8:29 pm

Re: Carlton Cinema Development

Postby fergalr » Wed Feb 13, 2008 1:27 pm

Have there been any newer pictures than the ones in the Pat Liddy book years ago of the Carlton building all pimped up?
fergalr
Senior Member
 
Posts: 513
Joined: Wed Nov 30, 2005 3:33 pm
Location: Howth, Co. Dublin

Re: Carlton Cinema Development

Postby jdivision » Wed Feb 13, 2008 5:13 pm

TLM wrote:Would these works affect the Dublin Bus building on the street?


O'reilly's been trying to buy it, not sure if he has or not.
jdivision
Senior Member
 
Posts: 802
Joined: Wed Sep 28, 2005 4:34 pm

Re: Carlton Cinema Development

Postby TLM » Wed Feb 13, 2008 5:20 pm

Thanks, don't think it would be any loss to see it getting re-developed too
TLM
Member
 
Posts: 138
Joined: Tue Nov 16, 2004 8:29 pm

Re: Carlton Cinema Development

Postby StephenC » Wed Feb 13, 2008 5:42 pm

Such a huge and important site....its amazing that DCC havent drawn up some guidelines for its development, or made an Action Area Plan or prepared an urban design framework and asked for some public feedback on wwhat should go here. Disgraceful!
User avatar
StephenC
Old Master
 
Posts: 2497
Joined: Mon Jul 16, 2001 12:00 am
Location: Dublin

PreviousNext

Return to Ireland