Planning Condition Problem

Planning Condition Problem

Postby sparkygavin1 » Mon Feb 04, 2008 6:54 pm

I received planning permission last year for a dormer bungalow in Co Kildare with 29 conditions attached(see attachment).

I called my Representative to ask him if there would be any problem with condition 2 which required 90 meters sight lines. He told me not to worry about it and we would address it when the month for appeals was up.
I Called him after the month when he told me that I would have to remove 70 meters of hedge row and taper the ditch to achieve the required sight lines on my neighbors land on both sides of my planned development.This would require me to get permission from both neighbors who have refused.

I have recently discovered this piece of legislation from the Planning and Development act 2000 in regard to planning conditions.

(4) Conditions under subsection (1) may, without prejudice to the
generality of that subsection, include all or any of the following—
(a) conditions for regulating the development or use of any land
which adjoins, abuts or is adjacent to the land to be
developed and which is under the control of the applicant,
so far as appears to the planning authority to be
expedient for the purposes of or in connection with the
development authorised by the permission;

My reading of this is that a council can put a condition concerning adjoining lands to a development if the developer is the owner of the lands.
In my case I do not own the lands.Does this mean this condition is illegal?
And if so is there anything i can do about it including legal action or is it too late because I didn't appeal the condition?

Thanks
Attachments

[The extension doc has been deactivated and can no longer be displayed.]

sparkygavin1
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Re: Planning Condition Problem

Postby alonso » Mon Feb 04, 2008 8:58 pm

Crikey!

This type of thing often happens with junctions/accesses whereby land is required outside the control of the applicant. And in fairness this is a pretty basic thing that should have been addressed at the outset. I have to say it was unwise to proceed without sorting out the access and most development plans give details on sight lines. Also your representative and yourself should really have made sure that you could comply with the conditions before deciding not to appeal to be honest

I'm surprised they didn't give you an AI request before granting. It would have been far better for you in the long run. please be aware that they could not possibly give permission for your development without knowing a safe access can be created. Seeing as you can't appeal I'm not sure what advice i'd give. The legislation you quote seems to be coming from the other side to your argument - it's merely setting out things a LA can do - not an attempt to limit their powers..

Anyway sorry, none of the above is helpful in any way. A new application is needed I'd say. The legal route is costly and time consuming (There are others here who may have better advice so bear that in mind while you read). And if you can't get consent from the neighbours you'll have to argue for a relaxation to 75m (if that's even possible) based on observed traffic speeds on the route. try and meet with the roads department to discuss it. I'm not sure if they would allow this in a 'compliance' scenario but they might in a new application.

I'd wait for at least 3 more different responses here before going back to your agent as there's always options. And i'm not convinced by your story that you don't require someone else's services in any case
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Re: Planning Condition Problem

Postby sparkygavin1 » Mon Feb 04, 2008 9:15 pm

Thanks for your reply.
Futher information and clarification of was asked for and sight lines were never raised.
I assumed it wasn't a problem and the architect never mentioned it either.
I dont really understand what you mean by
" And i'm not convinced by your story that you don't require someone else's services in any case "

Thanks again
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Re: Planning Condition Problem

Postby alonso » Mon Feb 04, 2008 9:41 pm

Maybe I was being a bit harsh but I would have thought access was a critical basic issue for all one off housing applications (I never deal with them so I don't know for sure), and that ability to comply with conditions would be establsihed before the appeal time ran out. Maybe it was a shock to you all that the sight lines couldn't be achieved but it sounds like it should have been almost obvious. But if it went to AI and CAI you most certainly had no reason whatsoever to believe it woud be a problem. AI exists to clarify these things.

It sounds like a bad and extemely unfair decision and I've seen a few stinkers in my time. Achieving sight lines should not be within the conditions, it;s the most fundamental aspect of a development. If you can't get in and out you can't develop. Had it gone to AI you would have had 6 months to sort it out instead of this scenario where you're stuck with a seemingly uncompliable condition.

Definitely go to the Roads department and have a chat. Do you have a copy of their report on the application?
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Re: Planning Condition Problem

Postby sparkygavin1 » Mon Feb 04, 2008 10:12 pm

Yes I got the planners report.
No mention of sight lines till the last report where theres a hand written note to add this condition to address the area engineer's concerns.This was dated the day planning was granted.In the 2 previous reports its says area engineer had no objection. Even the planner didn't seem too interested in the issue until this last minute intervention.
The speed limit on the road is only 60kph.The local TD has made representations on my behalf to get the sight lines reduced to 70 meters but there not happy with that even though its only a back road.
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Re: Planning Condition Problem

Postby alonso » Mon Feb 04, 2008 10:50 pm

I think there'll be a collective roll of the eyes from readers of that story... Engineers think in standards and in fairness to them, all it takes is one accident and one legal case for anyone to revert to this. Does the County Plan give a sightline standard for 60 kph roads? The Council are just taking the piss to be honest. The fact that they went through AI and CAI before getting to this type of incomplete decision is incredible. If you've already tried to consult I don't know the proper course of action except for going back to your neighbours, possibly wit 2 suitcases of cash!
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Re: Planning Condition Problem

Postby jackscout » Tue Feb 05, 2008 9:43 am

Bottom line the Planning Authority properly should have refused the development, due to inadequate sightlines, however gave you an option to address the matter by way of the inclusion of the planning condition. If the issue had been raised at further information stage you would still have to address the matter in a similar way as you have to now.

Your agent possibly advised you against appealing the decision as he knew at best it would not have been overturned and the Bord possibly could have refused the development, leaving you back to square one.

I won't proceed with the development without first addressing the condition.

It may be worth making a separate planning application to amend the condition to reduce the sight lines to 70 metres (if achievable) with a case made by a traffic study/audit and relevant supporting information., but talk to the roads section first, particularly if you are getting no joy for the neighbours.
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Re: Planning Condition Problem

Postby henno » Tue Feb 05, 2008 10:12 am

I agree with jackscout.

Contact the area engineer and agree to meet him out on sight.. possibly with your agent in tow.
Find out what classification of the road is ie primary, secondary or tertiary..... each class requires different sightlines... if the road is classed tertiary the area engineer should reduce the sightlines requirement to 70 m (this can be argued from an engineering point of view and is not opinion based.).... if he agrees this may not require a new application... and if it does make sure the application deals with the entrance only.

as a matter of interest, whats the maximum sightlines you can get at the moment both ways?? is the sightline taken from 3.0 m or 2.4m from the road edge??
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Re: Planning Condition Problem

Postby sparkygavin1 » Wed Feb 06, 2008 7:32 am

2.4 meters from the edge of the road is OK for them.
If they reduced the sightlines to 70 meters I would be ok.
The sightlines are to conform with the National Roads Authority, Design Manual for Roads and Bridges, road Geometry handbook, being measured to the near side of the public road.
Where would i get my hands on this to have a look myself?

Thanks
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Re: Planning Condition Problem

Postby alonso » Wed Feb 06, 2008 9:32 am

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Re: Planning Condition Problem

Postby Leinster101 » Mon Jun 08, 2009 4:10 pm

Can you tell me if you got the sight line issue resolved and if so how? I am in the same position at the moment, i received planning and share an entrance with my sister (who got planning 2 years previous and house is built) However one of my conditions was that i do not have the acquired sight lines and would involve removing 50meters of my neighbours hedge. Initially my neighbour agreed but then changed his mind. The house is at roof stage and i have received an enforccement notice to stop all works until the condition is met.
As this was an exiting entrance is there any way of arguing this?
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Re: Planning Condition Problem

Postby goneill » Mon Jun 08, 2009 4:56 pm

I've had the same problem a couple of times - most recently where the council had given permission in the last five years for a new high stone wall and bell shaped gateway to an exisitng house, but now wanted it demolished as a condition for granting a modest extension to the same house. Furthermore, the new gate had been built to align with a new section of wall which the council had itself built as part of road widening. More recently, and in Kildare I was restoring a 19th C farmhouse built in a L shape around a yard and with outbuildigngs, where the gable was more less on the verge, and the stone gate peirs and original iron gate intact. Council wanted entire gable demolished and moved off the road.

The scandalous aspect of all this is the counties' desire to comply with (British) road standards, based on speed limits which are often far too high for the roads in question. The default speed was until recently 60mph now 80kph, but still usually inappropriately high. City councils started ignoring the road engineers years ago - its a pity their rural counterparts don't stand up to them now and again.
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Re: Planning Condition Problem

Postby goneill » Mon Jun 08, 2009 4:58 pm

Only one of the above examples is more recent! I can't remember which one - both in the last 18 months
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