Should the Clarence Hotel redevelopment get permission?

Should the Clarence Hotel redevelopment get permission?

Yes
66
29%
No
163
71%
 
Total votes : 229

Re: A new Clarence Hotel re-development with destruction on Essex St., Temple Bar

Postby Rory W » Wed Oct 17, 2007 2:05 pm

Sorry about the swaring but Bono can fuck right off

This sort of blackmail is akin to what Paddy Gallagher did on Molesworth Street by threatening to close down his site (and make people unemployed) if he wasn't allowed to demolish St Anne's School

Hypocritical tax-avoiding short arse
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Re: A new Clarence Hotel re-development with destruction on Essex St., Temple Bar

Postby adhoc » Wed Oct 17, 2007 2:15 pm

Rory W wrote:Sorry about the swaring but Bono can fuck right off

This sort of blackmail is akin to what Paddy Gallagher did on Molesworth Street by threatening to close down his site (and make people unemployed) if he wasn't allowed to demolish St Anne's School

Hypocritical tax-avoiding short arse


Hear, hear. (or whatever the forum version of such parliamentary speak is)
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Should the Clarence Hotel redevelopment get permission?

Postby Paul Clerkin » Wed Oct 17, 2007 2:39 pm

Should the Clarence Hotel redevelopment get permission?
Just added a poll
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Re: Should the Clarence Hotel redevelopment get permission?

Postby ctesiphon » Wed Oct 17, 2007 2:50 pm

Paul Clerkin wrote:Should the Clarence Hotel redevelopment get permission?

I think my feelings on the matter are pretty clear (and that's the way I voted), but I've yet to see a good reasoned argument for giving permission.

If anyone votes that way, could I request a couple of lines explaining why? Thanks in advance.
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Re: Should the Clarence Hotel redevelopment get permission?

Postby shamrockmetro » Wed Oct 17, 2007 7:48 pm

Well I will comment!!!! ( i wasn't going to)


BAD:

1. DESTROY A BEAUTIFUL FACADE
2. HEIGHT
3. its just not the for the liffy/location...

BUT was liberty hall???
was the bank of scotland??? sorry ulster
was the department of justice in smithfields ? (notice you can see it from the spire)
was the guinness white factory tower that is so well hidden because its white
was the AIB bank in docklands that makes liberty hall look small fry??
was the irish rail bridge???
was the heinekien building??

4. Is it even in the right place???
5. What if they sell it and let it rot while they move to docklands as a lasting reminder?

GOOD/BAD?

1. It hides the DCC bunkers??

2. Has anyone ever noticed that if you stand in the middle of the occonnel st bridge it will look like a queens crown with two churches flanking it perfectly aligned?? Almost like the mosques in istanbul turkey....
if they got serious lighting on the two churches it might not look 2 bad from there but I would need to see a render first to comment....;)


has anyone noticed this stand there and you will see....

it does have the same idea as the top of liberty hall...

3. if anyone says they would like liberty hall to stay as is then I don't think they can object to this project

4. despite what people say the design is top notch world class very very good its just a question of if its the right site in the right context.... I did say if it is the right site and context!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
remember that

I welcome your comments!!! im not for or against it!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Re: Should the Clarence Hotel redevelopment get permission?

Postby Rory W » Thu Oct 18, 2007 4:56 pm

shamrockmetro wrote:Well I will comment!!!! ( i wasn't going to)


BAD:

1. DESTROY A BEAUTIFUL FACADE
2. HEIGHT
3. its just not the for the liffy/location...

BUT was liberty hall???
was the bank of scotland??? sorry ulster
was the department of justice in smithfields ? (notice you can see it from the spire)
was the guinness white factory tower that is so well hidden because its white
was the AIB bank in docklands that makes liberty hall look small fry??
was the irish rail bridge???
was the heinekien building??

4. Is it even in the right place???
5. What if they sell it and let it rot while they move to docklands as a lasting reminder?

GOOD/BAD?

1. It hides the DCC bunkers??

[I]2. Has anyone ever noticed that if you stand in the middle of the occonnel st bridge it will look like a queens crown with two churches flanking it perfectly aligned?? Almost like the mosques in istanbul turkey....
if they got serious lighting on the two churches it might not look 2 bad from there but I would need to see a render first to comment....]


has anyone noticed this stand there and you will see....

it does have the same idea as the top of liberty hall...

3. if anyone says they would like liberty hall to stay as is then I don't think they can object to this project

4. despite what people say the design is top notch world class very very good its just a question of if its the right site in the right context.... I did say if it is the right site and context!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
remember that

I welcome your comments!!! im not for or against it!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


OK to respond
It doesn't hide the DCC Bunkers

It's a massive bulk plonked on to existing facades/heights

If they sell it maybe it'll be sold to someone with a business plan, if they leave it rot they are even more hypocritical than before

"same idea as liberty hall" on a monsterous scale and whilst the viewing platform was for the benefit of the public - this viewing space in the Clarence is private

I want to keep liberty hall but object to this

It's not the right site and I don't believe that just because a project is designed by a starchitects practice (not necessarily the great man himself) that the project is by definition world class - this is just a massive bulk plonked behind a lopsided facade.

Can we see proper daylight renderings of this design?

I don't think that Dublin should be bullied into accepting this by fawning over bonob/foster.
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Re: Should the Clarence Hotel redevelopment get permission?

Postby draiochta » Thu Oct 18, 2007 9:31 pm

I agree with shamrock metro. I think it's a pretty design and there have been MUCH worse built in Dublin that nobody ever objected to,
- hence I voted yes.
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Wood Quay Part II?

Postby Paul Clerkin » Fri Oct 19, 2007 2:14 am

Just realised, that if they succeed in pulling down the buildings, I assume the city will send the archaeologists in to do a dig - it is pretty central original Dublin. Wood Quay Part II?
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Postby Paul Clerkin » Mon Oct 22, 2007 3:35 pm

The Irish Independent - 22/10/07


Architect survey rejects U2 hotel
Monday October 22 2007


U2 should not be allowed to go ahead with their ambitious plans to transform the Clarence Hotel, according to a survey of architects.


Online architecture discussion board, Archiseek, found that more than three-quarters of those canvassed felt that planning officials should not allow the €150m revamp of the Dublin hotel, owned by Bono and The Edge.

The supergroup has applied to Dublin City Council to demolish four neighbouring listed buildings to make the Clarence "the most spectacular hotel in Europe", erecting a skycatcher atrium, resembling a spaceship, visible from all over the city.

Objectors include An Taisce and the Irish Georgian Society.

Those who logged onto Archiseek were asked: "Should the Clarence Hotel redevelopment get permission?''

The answer was a vehement 'no', with 78pc against it and just 22pc in favour.

Those who logged on blasted the plans as "awful" "rubbish" and "hideous."

One urged: "Object, object, object. It is far too bulky and would dominate everything. We have made this mistake too many times.''
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Re: Should the Clarence Hotel redevelopment get permission?

Postby shamrockmetro » Mon Oct 22, 2007 9:39 pm

if you dont want them to build it you should automatically support

pulling down...

heniken
liberty
AIB
Ulster
Guiness
Dept justice
central bank
dept of health or what ever it is called

and replacing it with something georgian......

OR NOT?
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Re: Should the Clarence Hotel redevelopment get permission?

Postby cubix » Mon Oct 22, 2007 10:55 pm

"Object, object, object. It is far too bulky and would dominate everything. We have made this mistake too many times"

Who said this and would it possible for them to give some examples..?
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Re: Should the Clarence Hotel redevelopment get permission?

Postby GrahamH » Tue Oct 23, 2007 12:26 am

The very simple reason why this scheme is entirely different to your examples, and ought to be rejected, shamrockmetro is that it is a thoroughly compromised development. It is not the signature building it purports to be nor what you proclaim it to be by your listing of such examples. It is a behemoth development that lurks behind, alongside and on top of compromised, bastardised and demolished vernacular buildings, some of which are the finest examples of their kind in the city.

The only reason the 'saucer' is being used is to try and give coherence and form to a ridiculously cloaked and rambling hodge-podge of a concoction - a development that results both in the mutilation of one of Dublin's best traditional quay-fronts, and the loss of a potentially spectacular contemporary building for the city. It's as simple as that.
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Re: Should the Clarence Hotel redevelopment get permission?

Postby notjim » Tue Oct 23, 2007 9:23 am

shamrockmetro wrote:if you dont want them to build it you should automatically support

pulling down...

heniken
liberty
AIB
Ulster
Guiness
Dept justice
central bank
dept of health or what ever it is called

and replacing it with something georgian......

OR NOT?


That is an oddly mixed list: you are equating some good buildings with some bad ones, I think lots of people would like to see the Ulster Bank building go, ditto Hawkins house and what is now called the Heiniken building. The AIB building in contrast is much admired and Liberty Hall has its fans, me included. The Central Bank is a more tricky case, a fine building but inappropriately located: lots of people would prefer it had never been build but would oppose demolishing it, a consistient view, the original street scape has been lost and pulling down the building would not restore that, the building itself has its virtues and is an important relic of its time. The Clarence: well the proposed building is incoherent and bulky, inelegant bar the nice southern facade and building it would cause the loss of valuable buildings, a huge shame in a city not lacking in room for redevelopment.

I don't know what you mean by replacing things with something Georgian, that is impossible because the Georgian times have passed: something can be built in the Georgian style or as a replica Georgian but almost no-one supports that except possible in an infill aimed at restoring a larger, significant, Georgian streetscape.
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Re: Should the Clarence Hotel redevelopment get permission?

Postby Rory W » Tue Oct 23, 2007 10:49 am

shamrockmetro wrote:if you dont want them to build it you should automatically support

pulling down...

heniken
liberty
AIB
Ulster
Guiness
Dept justice
central bank
dept of health or what ever it is called

and replacing it with something georgian......

OR NOT?


In a word - no

As per notjim's comments all very different buildings
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Re: Should the Clarence Hotel redevelopment get permission?

Postby DGF » Tue Oct 23, 2007 4:18 pm

For me the question is: What should be the outstanding (ie significant) building along this stretch of the Liffey? The Four Courts or a Hotel? Nuff said.
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Re: Clarence redevelopment

Postby CC105 » Tue Oct 23, 2007 5:00 pm

I am in favour of this development, as usual in Dublin once somthing new has been proposed it gets talked down or dismissed, add in the Foster factor and it seems all architects etc are up in arms. I sense the green eyed monster!, pitty the whole area from Temple bar down to Hueston is not being redesigned. The digital hub etc appear to be doomed to more 4 / 5 story buildings even though the much hyped interconnector will run close by.
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Re: Clarence redevelopment

Postby cubix » Tue Oct 23, 2007 5:13 pm

Pretty much anything a little bit different or interesting proposed in Dublin is doomed,thats simply how it is.Digital hub never had a hope from the start,the revised application which is 26 storeys might, but I doubt it.
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Re: Clarence redevelopment

Postby alonso » Tue Oct 23, 2007 5:17 pm

CC105 wrote:I am in favour of this development, as usual in Dublin once somthing new has been proposed it gets talked down or dismissed, add in the Foster factor and it seems all architects etc are up in arms. I sense the green eyed monster!, pitty the whole area from Temple bar down to Hueston is not being redesigned. The digital hub etc appear to be doomed to more 4 / 5 story buildings even though the much hyped interconnector will run close by.


yes Mr. Hewson Sir. I'm not an architect. I think this proposal is muck.
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Re: Clarence redevelopment

Postby JoePublic » Tue Oct 23, 2007 5:31 pm

alonso wrote:yes Mr. Hewson Sir. I'm not an architect. I think this proposal is muck.


Well I love the sky catcher idea, I think it would look really cool from the quays, and I think it'd be like the gravity bar: a great place to bring friends visiting Dublin and enjoy the great view.

What I don't like is the demolition of the Clarence facade and its Western neighbour on Essex street.

But not to worry Alonso, I'm sure you'll get your way and this project will be blocked, along with all the other interesting proposals for Dublin ;)
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Re: Should the Clarence Hotel redevelopment get permission?

Postby JoePublic » Tue Oct 23, 2007 5:38 pm

DGF wrote:For me the question is: What should be the outstanding (ie significant) building along this stretch of the Liffey? The Four Courts or a Hotel? Nuff said.


Coz there's only room for one decent building in Dublin?
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Re: Clarence redevelopment

Postby alonso » Tue Oct 23, 2007 7:06 pm

[quote="JoePublic"]Well I love the sky catcher idea, I think it would look really cool from the quays, and I think it'd be like the gravity bar: a great place to bring friends visiting Dublin and enjoy the great view.

What I don't like is the demolition of the Clarence facade and its Western neighbour on Essex street.

But not to worry Alonso, I'm sure you'll get your way and this project will be blocked, along with all the other interesting proposals for Dublin ]

I'm just really really worried that Bono and Norm will carry through their threat to close the hotel. What will Dublin be like without that social mecca - it'll crumble.

on a more serious note, we have a serious problem here in Dublin - brought about, in my opinion, by the gaping chasms between the authorities, the developers, and the people. We have some truly massive developments in the pipeline being proposed, of real ambition and (yeh let's say vision) vision. But they are all in the most ridiculous places. i'm talking this one, Dunne Towers, and Manor Park's Manhattan. There's no leadership, either by policy or by incentive, which is directing this type of development to where it should be, and setting out the parameters for development in the rest of the city. The result is stagnation.

The more I think of these developments, the more I believe the City Fathers should stare downriver from Wood Quay and regret Docklands. Of course it's not too late. Yet.
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Re: Should the Clarence Hotel redevelopment get permission?

Postby Rory W » Wed Oct 24, 2007 2:10 pm

Perhaps if we had decent renders we could make our minds up - however - looking at the nighttime face on render you cannot guage the impact of the building, also to see the hotel from that perspective the liffey would have to be as wide as if it ran back over Abbey street - how about a human heigt representation from O'Connell and Gratten Bridge to truly represent it

Just on the budget hotel front issue .. how come the Morrisson can run a successful operation and Bono cant?
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Re: Should the Clarence Hotel redevelopment get permission?

Postby JoePublic » Wed Oct 24, 2007 4:05 pm

Rory W wrote:Perhaps if we had decent renders we could make our minds up - however - looking at the nighttime face on render you cannot guage the impact of the building, also to see the hotel from that perspective the liffey would have to be as wide as if it ran back over Abbey street - how about a human heigt representation from O'Connell and Gratten Bridge to truly represent it

Just on the budget hotel front issue .. how come the Morrisson can run a successful operation and Bono cant?


There have been day-time renders from O'Connell bridge or thereabouts in the papers on a few occasions - looks like they haven't made it onto archiseek.
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Re: Should the Clarence Hotel redevelopment get permission?

Postby CM00 » Wed Oct 24, 2007 8:28 pm

While a big fan of Foster, I doubt he had much to do with this one and personally think it is visually a load of muck. In my opinion, buildings which ignore their context to this extent need to be of an exceedingly high quality. In this case, the building is aesthetically bland and would undermine the charm and integrity of the quays without offering anything positive or representative of the best even (Foster) could produce. Apologies for the poor quality, I was in a rush but the boards and model are still visible in the foyer at D.C.C.
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Re: Should the Clarence Hotel redevelopment get permission?

Postby Peter Fitz » Thu Oct 25, 2007 12:16 am

the scale is so overbearing ... nothing in those renders changes my mind - now I can see why F&P let out the night time render first ...
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