what's going up in Cobh

Re: what's going up in Cobh

Postby samuel j » Tue Oct 02, 2007 3:06 pm

ABP have made a decision on the Cobh Marina Development, but no details unitl 3rd of Oct.
However rumour on the street is that is has been shot down....

In my opinion a pity as would have been a great opportunity to put Cobh on the tourist map..
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Re: what's going up in Cobh

Postby jungle » Tue Oct 02, 2007 3:31 pm

The front page of today's Echo says it was refused.
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Re: what's going up in Cobh

Postby samuel j » Tue Oct 02, 2007 5:00 pm

Yeap it has indeed been refused.
I think Cobh has really lost its final chance and its a shame. Really could
have put Cobh on the map. I know it from Marinas all over that I have visited (was in Southampton last week up the Hamble River... thriving) the associtated industries that follow are a boon to any area....
You name it, pubs, restaurants, chandlers, repair services....
Take Dingle, Fenit and Cahirciveen... all got Marinas and the shore side bonus to all towns can easily be seen.
Was in Scotland this summer and up the Clyde the place is dotted with Marinas, the amount of visiting boats was incredible and sums being spent ashore.......ah well we had our chance
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Re: what's going up in Cobh

Postby THE_Chris » Tue Oct 02, 2007 5:07 pm

Why the hell was the marina development refused??? Image
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Re: what's going up in Cobh

Postby theblimp » Wed Oct 03, 2007 6:56 am

I understand that the heights of the apartment blocks were the main reason for refusal, but as others have said it's a terrible loss. We have such amazing natural areas for watersports, yet so few marina spaces.
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Re: what's going up in Cobh

Postby Spinal Tap » Wed Oct 03, 2007 7:30 am

One of the greatest natural harbours in the world and Cobh has a prime setting in the centre of it.
Sailed around the harbour yesterday evening and we had to moor at Clippers Bar as there is nowhere to moor a yacht.The run down and negelect visable in Cobh is shocking with boarded up shops etc and massive potential left untapped.

Monkstown has been approved for a new marina.


Cobh takes yet another step backwards.
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Re: what's going up in Cobh

Postby samuel j » Wed Oct 03, 2007 9:00 am

Spinal Tap wrote:One of the greatest natural harbours in the world and Cobh has a prime setting in the centre of it.
Sailed around the harbour yesterday evening and we had to moor at Clippers Bar as there is nowhere to moor a yacht.The run down and negelect visable in Cobh is shocking with boarded up shops etc and massive potential left untapped.

Monkstown has been approved for a new marina.


Cobh takes yet another step backwards.


A Big Step Backwards...... I know Marine orientated service businesses that hoped to expand and even some startup businesses that will now dropped all plans. Some will undoubtedly move/base themselves elsewhere
but yet again another loss of potential jobs to Cobh.

Monkstown, yes they have and I for one wish them every success with it.
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Re: what's going up in Cobh

Postby THE_Chris » Wed Oct 03, 2007 11:13 am

Why cant they just apply for a marina without a ton of residential blocks? Thats daft.

Apply for a nice big marina with some reclaimed land with shops and restaurants and be damned to residential areas of it.

Jeez, Cobh is hopeless sometimes.
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Re: what's going up in Cobh

Postby samuel j » Wed Oct 03, 2007 12:40 pm

I take your point THE_Chris but alas for any developer the capital expenditure on a Marina alone makes very little business sense. There was a time when structures could be put in place without too much additional costs, but these days the costs exclusive of the actual pontoons,piles etc. have rocketted... Namely the initial foreshore lease and it annual fees thereafter to the Department of Communications, Energy and Natural Resources. Rates will apply if the structure is attached to land... which may sound stupid as of course it does..or how due to get on to it... if you have to do any dredging to increase depths for boats.. then god help you... this opens up a veritible pandoras box on costs, licences etc., archeology.....
Now this should end up with the price you charge a guy to leave his boat there or per metre, but without shoreside development in conjunction, the berthing costs will be so high..... no one will use it.
Take the marina developement going ahead in Bray/Greystones http://www.greystonesmarina.com/staticpages/index.php?page=Development again you can see that the shoreside development vital to make the project viable.

The Cobh marina case dates back to 2003 when Cobh Town Council granted planning for a 120berth marina, a 87 bedroom hotel 126 apartments and 12 retail units. However this was overuled by to An Bord Pleanála.

In 2004 Ascon resubmitted a revised application. The hotel was removed from the plan. The plan now incorporated a 200 berth marina ,150 apartments, restaurant and bar a waterside promenade and three retail units. Cobh Town Council gave permission for the plan however another objection to An Bord Pleanála.

This was subject of a high court case due to dates etc. but in end it was sent back to ABP and we now have the outcome of this........
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Re: what's going up in Cobh

Postby samuel j » Wed Oct 03, 2007 1:33 pm

The ABP reports are now available online :

http://www.pleanala.ie/casenum/220852.htm
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Re: what's going up in Cobh

Postby THE_Chris » Wed Oct 03, 2007 2:57 pm

lol what on earth is going on here - one of the grounds for refusal

Applicant is not the owner of the site and does not have the consent of the owner to apply for planning permission.


Hmmm.
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Re: what's going up in Cobh

Postby samuel j » Wed Oct 03, 2007 3:08 pm

Strange one alright. Gather the majority of the site would have been reclaimed land and the remaining beach is up or grabs so to speak. Many galvanised sheeting sheds on top of beach which I gather have been there for years in various states of repair and in their day were 'just built'. however owners have come forward of these sheds..presumably now with some form of claim of title over each.
Undoubtedly a civil matter as to actual title of these....
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Re: what's going up in Cobh

Postby marshalireland1 » Wed Oct 03, 2007 3:48 pm

I know people both sides on the Cobh marina debate, but would be biased more towards the resident's view. I’ve been meaning to post for a while on this so excuse the length.

A brief history – residents were in favour – delighted in fact, when it was first announced. The developers slowly but surely turned them against the plan and barely spoke to the residents. Relations got so bad after the first plan that the councilors didn’t even really canvass there during the local elections. The councilors exhibited typical old style Irish gombeen thinking that it’s all about jobs. It’s not – nowadays we have the opportunity to think about quality rather than quantity. Given the general view on this board of the people who run the town, you have to appreciate the local’s lack of trust. Very little has been done with this side of town and what has been done has been done largely by the residents. Look at “the batteries”/bishop Roche park, a great opportunity basically handed over to night time drinkers.

The quality and design of the buildings is lazy, but improved. The original one CUDC granted permission for was awful. Even a cursory examination of the proposal would lead most people to believe that it’s a Trojan horse for apartments, not a marina at heart. You also have to remember the long, and tragic, history of this area and land slides. There is just no way it’s safe to bring serious amount of infill and construction traffic. Given Irelands woeful reputation on enforcement, there was little belief that everything would be brought in by sea once construction started. Can you imagine what the town would be like with all this heavy traffic.

I am very surprised at the reaction of people here who come across as a group very much for improving Cobh and enhancing its heritage. My own personal favorite would be to develop Mitchell/Davis/Meagher (Camden/Carlisle/Northumberland) with a ferry route linking them.

Given the general opinion on this board of Cobh council, people here have let them off lightly. The high court case taken by the residents just to be allowed to appeal to ABP was because the council tried to prevent the locals from appealing. The judge was very, very unimpressed with what the council did. Remember, yet again it was your tax money the council was donating to the legal profession.

It became very clear from early on that the marina was an elitist (no part V tenants for example) development and repeatedly tried to minimize if not eliminate any public access. It was handled badly from the very beginning. If you are asking people to forgoe their fine views of the harbour, extra traffic, serious noise-dust-traffic during construction, remove their parking, etc. you try to get them on board. This was not how it worked. Notice in the ABP report that the public noticed incorrectly stated the height of one building (making it smaller). This kind of stuff really gets people suspicious and after a first failed attempt, surely you try and do things right the second time. Note the last time something was built here, the people on harbour row were told that the houses on the old cinema site would not obscure their views. Just look at the chopped off roofs on those to see how much attention was paid to that promise.

I’m also very unsure as to the location of the marina in relation to the main channel. Who’s to say what the port of Corks view would be once construction began.

I would have loved a continental type marina and so would the residents, but that’s not what was planned.
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Re: what's going up in Cobh

Postby corcaighboy » Wed Oct 03, 2007 4:04 pm

Cobh...a lost cause I am afraid. What should be one of Ireland's premier tourist towns is a sulking and increasingly ugly town. Whatever about the merits or otherwise of the planned development, it was at least an attempt at kick starting something. I personally thought it was a project that at least would bring some life back to the foreshore and restore Cobh's maritime heritage as its primary industry. After this decision, I don't think we will see too many investors willing to take a punt on any flagship project in the vicinity. As pointed out elsewhere on this thread, a town with such prize architectural assets as the Cathedral and the 'deck of cards' seems to have difficulty keeping them in good shape. Meanwhile, ABP have no issues with abominations such as the 'Mississippi Showboat' that is the local Garda Station and the 'TV Box' that is the local welfare office. I guess if the state were the developer, then there would be no issues!
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Re: what's going up in Cobh

Postby Praxiteles » Wed Oct 03, 2007 4:25 pm

THE_Chris wrote:lol what on earth is going on here - one of the grounds for refusal



Hmmm.



This is one of the planning regulations that cme into force on 31 March 2007. An application made by anyone other than owner must be accompanied by a letter of consent otherwise the application will be ipso facto invalid. If the application were made prior to 31 March 2007, then that rule does not apply.
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Re: what's going up in Cobh

Postby THE_Chris » Wed Oct 03, 2007 5:52 pm

Aaah ok :D
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Re: what's going up in Cobh

Postby Praxiteles » Wed Oct 03, 2007 6:08 pm

P.S. Looking at the inspector's report, it seems that this was an objection and not a reason for refusal.
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Re: what's going up in Cobh

Postby samuel j » Wed Oct 03, 2007 8:13 pm

[quote="marshalireland1"]I know people both sides on the Cobh marina debate, but would be biased more towards the resident's view. I’]

You raise some good points without doubt communication broke down at an early stage which does no one any good. Town council...yes our taxes wasted yet again..you are right and as to enforcement...know from close experience that it is non existent and most mortals will get no help unless they themselves take legal action.

I would agree that the development was no architectural gem but when compared to the nuggets that corcaigh boy mentions. garda station etc. it at least would have brought a lot more to the town.
Is a development like this is ,being penalised as we now are part of the celtic tiger and can afford to be choosy.... if so then very short sighted......
I would not agree on jobs..... I come from an era when to be in employment was considered lucky. We as a nation are losing exports/manufacturing at an alarming rate...this has to be replaced and if tourism is one route to sustain us in the life we've become accustomed..so be it. Having a heritage town is of course desirable and what we should be striving to achieve but not if it is a heritage of boarded up buildings, a dead town and no money in circulation to dig ourselves out of it.
Ascon in my opinion are one of the better companies and if you see any other marine structures they built...quality work.
in other post I have highlighted how in the current climate marine structures alone are not a viable business model. To this end it may not have been development of the year...but it was well on the way to get Cobh to dig itself out of the rut it is in.
if you ever have the opportunity to see Cobh form the sea...just take a look at the beach in question with its sheds... its like a shanty town... is this what we want as our legacy to the next generation.

I too would love love a marina with all the finer trimmings but lets be real...this is not going to happen and never was... we had a crack at the whip and we let it go..

It will be heritage alright but at a heavy cost ..... maybe we can afford it but the Celtic Tiger at full pace has come and gone..... did we see anything actually improve in the town itself in this period....that could sustain jobs/businesses/life.... I think not and the cat is slowing to a crawl..... cobh will just slip even further.
Just my opinion..... lived through the years of mass emigration....do not want to do it again...
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Re: what's going up in Cobh

Postby bunch » Thu Oct 04, 2007 7:55 am

did anyone see the photmontages of the proposed scheme in the evening echo?

if anyone did, they would find it difficult to say anything positive about it - it was horrendous. the developer has to be blamed for failing to address the shortcomings on the previous scheme and for proposing such a poor scheme on such an important location - imo the developer has let cobh down in a big way.

arguments about emigration and our changing manufacturing profile and the importance of tourism are important but they should not mean that a town as architecturally and historically important as Cobh has to accept a load of cheap noddy town apartments as a trade off for a marina
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Re: what's going up in Cobh

Postby samuel j » Thu Oct 04, 2007 8:57 am

"a town as architecturally and historically important as Cobh has to accept a load of cheap noddy town apartments as a trade off for a marina"

Perhaps you are right, Noddy Town (very good..LOL) , well we have alot of them already I'm afraid without any trade off...... will be interesting to see if any other developer will take up the mantle..

Rumour has it Noddy and Big Ears, have boarded up their premises and have left poor Dyna Doll to fend for herself. Noddy is putting all of his money into the Cork Docklands and Big Ears has gone to the US for cosmetic surgery and intends retiring to a Marina complex in the Florida Keys.
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Re: what's going up in Cobh

Postby samuel j » Thu Oct 11, 2007 7:18 pm

Just some shots of Cobh from the River with 'Jewel of the Seas' alongside taken last Saturday 6/10/07
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Re: what's going up in Cobh

Postby Spinal Tap » Fri Oct 12, 2007 7:47 am

samuel j wrote:"a town as architecturally and historically important as Cobh has to accept a load of cheap noddy town apartments as a trade off for a marina"

Perhaps you are right, Noddy Town (very good..LOL) , well we have alot of them already I'm afraid without any trade off...... will be interesting to see if any other developer will take up the mantle..

Rumour has it Noddy and Big Ears, have boarded up their premises and have left poor Dyna Doll to fend for herself. Noddy is putting all of his money into the Cork Docklands and Big Ears has gone to the US for cosmetic surgery and intends retiring to a Marina complex in the Florida Keys.



Cobh with all its Architectural,Maritime and historical heritage stop the clock yet again and accepts the decline and decay thats visible all over the town with the greatest potential in Ireland for tourism.

Meanwhile West Cork,Kinsale,Crosshaven,Clonakilty,Baltimore and Cork City itself dominate and forge ahead Old Queenstown stands still surrounded by Haulbowline,Spike Island and fading Titanic relics etc.

The town has been in decline since the British Navy pulled out in the 1930's - I.F.I,Irish Steel and the Verolme Cork Dockyard long since scrapped recycled.

Time for Cobh to glorify the past and embrace the future before it dries up.
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Re: what's going up in Cobh

Postby samuel j » Fri Oct 12, 2007 8:40 am

Spinal Tap wrote:Cobh with all its Architectural,Maritime and historical heritage stop the clock yet again and accepts the decline and decay thats visible all over the town with the greatest potential in Ireland for tourism.

Meanwhile West Cork,Kinsale,Crosshaven,Clonakilty,Baltimore and Cork City itself dominate and forge ahead Old Queenstown stands still surrounded by Haulbowline,Spike Island and fading Titanic relics etc.The town has been in decline since the British Navy pulled out in the 1930's - I.F.I,Irish Steel and the Verolme Cork Dockyard long since scrapped recycled.

Time for Cobh to glorify the past and embrace the future before it dries up.


Good points.... we'll have a Heritage Town alright of boarded up businsses and derelict buildings... its here already....

If I was a developer/investor the recent events would give me a stong hint to invest elsewhere, like West Cork,Kinsale,Crosshaven,Clonakilty,Baltimore.

One could argue forever on the merits of the design etc. of the disallowed Marina but the damage is greater than that. Will be interesting to see where Cobh is in 5 years..... comparative to the likes of Courtmacsherry, Schull, Kinsale,Crosshaven,Clonakilty,Baltimore.
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Re: what's going up in Cobh

Postby Spinal Tap » Fri Oct 12, 2007 11:17 am

samuel j wrote:Good points.... we'll have a Heritage Town alright of boarded up businsses and derelict buildings... its here already....

If I was a developer/investor the recent events would give me a stong hint to invest elsewhere, like West Cork,Kinsale,Crosshaven,Clonakilty,Baltimore.

One could argue forever on the merits of the design etc. of the disallowed Marina but the damage is greater than that. Will be interesting to see where Cobh is in 5 years..... comparative to the likes of Courtmacsherry, Schull, Kinsale,Crosshaven,Clonakilty,Baltimore.


Cobh with its setting in the centre of the harbour,facing south,outstanding architecture that only Kinsale and Crosshaven could dream of and deepwater for shipping and nowhere to moor a yacht.


The RCYC was moved to Crosshaven from Cobh which is a shame.
Cruise down the West coast of France and you can moor in similar sized ports easily with the industry and tourism surrounding it is a potential wasted.

Visit La Rochelle sometime and see how the old and the new have been integrated.

Cobh will decay for another 10 years before anything is done.

Remember Kinsale 25 years ago - you could'nt give the place away.
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Re: what's going up in Cobh

Postby samuel j » Fri Oct 12, 2007 12:37 pm

Cobh with its setting in the centre of the harbour,facing south,outstanding architecture that only Kinsale and Crosshaven could dream of and deepwater for shipping and nowhere to moor a yacht.

The Pontoon at the Quays Bar is the only haven for a visting yacht and in high use all summer.
After that well.......I'm afraid I watch foreign boats in the summer day in/day out, come up in fornt of Cobh, do a quick u-turn and away again..... all with Cash in pocket ready to be spent.....

Cruise down the West coast of France and you can moor in similar sized ports easily with the industry and tourism surrounding it is a potential wasted.

Indeed and North Coast of Spain and Scotland as I've mentioned before

Visit La Rochelle sometime and see how the old and the new have been integrated.

A Prime example

Cobh will decay for another 10 years before anything is done.

Remember Kinsale 25 years ago - you could'nt give the place away.
Remember it well.....

Courtmacsherry and Schull are both getting their acts together on Marinas as they have seen the huge
shoreside benefits.... in fact Kerry at the moment doing very well with their 3 marinas, Cahirciveen, Dingle and Fenit... to County Corks expense...many French and German boats skipping West Cork and vacationing/cruising there directly due to excellent facilities. Know many who even temporarily leave boats there and come back again to continue their holiday or with other family members.... who all use shoreside transport etc...
This could have been Cobh...
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