Thomas Street & James Street, Dublin!

Re: Thomas Street & James Street, Dublin!

Postby hutton » Thu Sep 06, 2007 4:38 pm

A little bit of good news re these on the corner of Crane Lane - I am informed by reliable sources that these are currently being preped for restoration, with one of the city's better known and respected practises attached to the project. Apparently these passed thru the hands of DCC in recent years, who it is said were largely to blame for their current condition. However I am now happy to report that those currently involved are doing their work very diligently, having already researched other builings of similar stock. So here's hoping to a happy-ending on this one :)
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Re: Thomas Street & James Street, Dublin!

Postby GregF » Fri Sep 07, 2007 8:19 am

This is great news indeed.
Its so sad to see in many cases fine old building stock left to fall into disrepair. The historical context and the old and original building stock of this area should be restored and maintained. Ye wouldn't see an equivalent significant historic area in such a paltry condition abroad, especially in Europe.

Again this whloe area has great potential from Christchurch right up to Kilmainham Gaol. (Even far more historically valuable than the overly inflated egotistic Ballsbridge & Co , in the headlines at the mo.)
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Re: Thomas Street & James Street, Dublin!

Postby Devin » Sun Sep 30, 2007 11:50 pm

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igy wrote:Why would it have been demolished if there's apparently no replacement planned*? It didn't look like it was in that bad shape?

* - or at least, nothing's happened since 2003
It was claimed at the time that it had structurally deteriorated and needed to be demolished. Whether or which, there was a site assembly going on there for a number of years, so it wouldn't have been any harm to get an old building out of the way ...



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hutton wrote:A little bit of good news re these on the corner of Crane Lane - I am informed by reliable sources that these are currently being preped for restoration, with one of the city's better known and respected practises attached to the project. Apparently these passed thru the hands of DCC in recent years, who it is said were largely to blame for their current condition. However I am now happy to report that those currently involved are doing their work very diligently, having already researched other builings of similar stock. So here's hoping to a happy-ending on this one :)
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The buildings (Nos. 7 & 8 Thomas Street) formed part of the infamous Manor Park Homes Mini-Mahattan plan of last year. They are an interesting survival of Dublin-vernacular architecture. The Crane Lane frontage is interesting too. The proposed treatment of them in that plan by deBlacam & Meagher architects was pretty diabolical; they proposed building directly upwards over the protected structures, as seen in the drawing below.

The proposal for that whole block actually between St. Catherine’s Church and Crane Lane was crude, the attitude being ‘regeneration hasn’t worked so something dramatic is needed’.

After DCC refused the whole thing, the developer appealed, but it just got log-jammed with the Board; every time it reaches its decision-due date, it gets put back another month. Reading between the lines, they were told the proposal wasn’t a runner, and, hutton, I’ve heard the same thing, that a complete revised proposal is being lodged right at the moment … we’ll wait and see …..
.
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Re: Thomas Street & James Street, Dublin!

Postby hutton » Mon Oct 01, 2007 12:45 am

[quote="Devin"]
The buildings (Nos. 7 & 8 Thomas Street) formed part of the infamous Manor Park Homes Mini-Mahattan plan of last year. They are an interesting survival of Dublin-vernacular architecture. The Crane Lane frontage is interesting too. The proposed treatment of them in that plan by deBlacam & Meagher architects was pretty diabolical]

Thanks for thr clarity on this Devin - it is dBM that I had heard were doing their homework, although that was in connection with interiors. Unfortunately I had failed to twig that it was part of the MH madness scheme :o
In any case the intervention needed should not be dependent on a much bigger scheme which may or may not get the go ahead. The buildings will deteriorate in the meantime. Their current state is appalling; action is needed - otherwise, if its beyond the ability of the current owners, candidates for CPO perhaps... *wishful thinking*

Do you have any info this other house opposite, near the corner of Watling St? Or is it too caught up in indefinate animated suspension, dependent on some spec developer?

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Re: Thomas Street & James Street, Dublin!

Postby Devin » Mon Oct 01, 2007 1:17 am

Yeah. As said in Post 21 on the previous page it will be refurbished as part of the ‘Windmill Site’ development, provided it gets the go ahead from ABP. Decision due on 4th of October, but I won't be surprised if it's put back again; it's been put back several times already:

http://www.pleanala.ie/casenum/221294.htm
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Re: Thomas Street & James Street, Dublin!

Postby Devin » Tue Oct 02, 2007 9:22 pm

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Thomas Street generally needs to be designated an ACA. Many of the terraced buildings that make it what it is have no protection – only the weak old ‘Conservation Area’ designation.

Take this group (above) between Frawley’s and St. Catherine’s Church. None of them are protected structures. They have a wonderful array of pitched roofs and gables at the rear, very characteristic of the old city (including what appears to be a rare cruciform roof to No. 30). But that could all be lost at the moment because they have no protection. And they could well the subject of landbanking arising out of the Frawley’s closure/sale …... jdivision, maybe you know?
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Re: Thomas Street & James Street, Dublin!

Postby GregF » Wed Oct 03, 2007 12:03 pm

What is also important about these building is that they give historic context to St. Catherines Church. So many settings of major buildings have been ruined by the demolishishment of their immediate surroundings...ie the Four Courts with the offices to the left, the GPO with Penny's (BHS) to the left etc...


deBlacam & Meagher are definitely sociopaths or mentalists of sorts to design such an absurdity for this historic and neglected area of the city.
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Re: Thomas Street & James Street, Dublin!

Postby Aidan » Wed Oct 03, 2007 1:58 pm

Thanks to the decision to put a QBC on the North Quays, those of us stuck on buses on Thomas and James Steet every morning now get extra time to appreciate these streets. Like a little slice of the 70s they are ...
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Re: Thomas Street & James Street, Dublin!

Postby cubix » Wed Oct 03, 2007 3:00 pm

sorry for not reading the whole thread but do we have a decision on two potential high rises tomorrow...?
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Re: Thomas Street & James Street, Dublin!

Postby Devin » Wed Oct 03, 2007 4:20 pm

Yes. Here, this'll get you salivating; the Manor Park scheme as seen from O'Connell Bridge:
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Re: Thomas Street & James Street, Dublin!

Postby GregF » Wed Oct 03, 2007 4:25 pm

Ah that's absolutely rediculous ...they've gotta be havin' a laugh. The architects are definitely on some happy pills or something. Would be hard to take this architectural firm serious with such an outlandish proposal or anything else for that matter.
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Re: Thomas Street & James Street, Dublin!

Postby cubix » Wed Oct 03, 2007 5:03 pm

lol not a hope! maybe it was one of those promotional type projects like shamrog city,but that windmill development has a chance at least.
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Re: Thomas Street & James Street, Dublin!

Postby GregF » Wed Oct 10, 2007 4:11 pm

Saw on the Irish Times today that the DCC is planning a whole new regeneration project for this area....aka, the Liberties etc... About time! North King Street and Smithfield have never looked back since their makeover. Let's hope Thomas St., James St., etc... gets the attention it deserves.
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Re: Thomas Street & James Street, Dublin!

Postby jdivision » Wed Oct 10, 2007 4:48 pm

SoHo springs to mind. Big announcement, nothing happens.
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Re: Thomas Street & James Street, Dublin!

Postby hutton » Wed Oct 10, 2007 5:18 pm

jdivision wrote:SoHo springs to mind. Big announcement, nothing happens.


I'd be inclined to agree with you alright, though tbh imo the Manor Homes scheme was a grossely greedy scheme which DCC were right to reject. DCC should not be dependent on the whims of those who wish to overdevelop in order for renewal of the area to get under way; equally buildings on the RPS which are owned by the same interests should not be left continuing to rot - DCC needs to enact the derilict sites act, and imo issue the letters threatening CPO. If there's still an inadequate response, CPO at current value (ie no commercial concern) and then sell tto those who will put such buildings to good use. Here's where DCC should be using CPOs - not at the Carlton, where it was used imo most unfairly. But then which was the more valuable to certain parties? :rolleyes:
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Re: Thomas Street & James Street, Dublin!

Postby Adolf Luas » Wed Oct 10, 2007 8:28 pm

GregF wrote:Saw on the Irish Times today that the DCC is planning a whole new regeneration project for this area....aka, the Liberties etc... About time! North King Street and Smithfield have never looked back since their makeover. Let's hope Thomas St., James St., etc... gets the attention it deserves.


Smithfield, in my experience, is regarded as a massive failure by local residents. The Liberties could do well to learn how not to repeat similar mistakes.
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Re: Thomas Street & James Street, Dublin!

Postby GregF » Thu Oct 11, 2007 8:54 am

Adolf Luas wrote:Smithfield, in my experience, is regarded as a massive failure by local residents. The Liberties could do well to learn how not to repeat similar mistakes.



I was just remembering the disgraceful condition Smithfield and North King Street were in compared to now. Compared to the acres of dereliction, wastegrounds, etc..(aka ground zero), it is an improvement.
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Re: Thomas Street & James Street, Dublin!

Postby igy » Thu Oct 11, 2007 9:51 am

Anyone know what building this is / was?

The cynic in me suggests foul play.
ireland.com wrote:Dublin fire disrupts Luas services

Four units of Dublin Fire Brigade are tackling a blaze in a derelict building in the inner city.

The fire broke out shortly before 8am close to St James's Hospital in the south inner city.

No injuries were reported, and it is believed the building was empty at the time.

James's Street was closed to inbound traffic, and gardaí are directing motorists. Service on the Luas Red Line was disrupted between Heuston and Blackhorse Stations.
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Re: Thomas Street & James Street, Dublin!

Postby StephenC » Thu Oct 11, 2007 11:04 am

GregF wrote:I was just remembering the disgraceful condition Smithfield and North King Street were in compared to now. Compared to the acres of dereliction, wastegrounds, etc..(aka ground zero), it is an improvement.


I agree! What a spectacularly over the top statement Adolf Luas to say that Smithfield is seen as a "massive failure". What residents are you refering to? The residents of Council houses at the north end that now have shops, a supermarket, a health centre, a gym, restuarants, bars,cafe, a cinema (soon), and cultural facilities. Or perhaps to mean the Council residents on Balckhall Place who have received completely revamped apartments as well as the above. Or maybe you mean the new residents to the area - ie the ones who werent there before!

Its obvious that Smithfeild isnt perfect and there is still along way to go, particularly the inexplicable lack of attention to the southern part of the square. It has its problems and I would have plenty to say about some aspects of whats happened there. But its not a massive failure!
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Re: Thomas Street & James Street, Dublin!

Postby tommyt » Thu Oct 11, 2007 11:39 am

StephenC wrote:I agree! What a spectacularly over the top statement Adolf Luas to say that Smithfield is seen as a "massive failure". What residents are you refering to? The residents of Council houses at the north end that now have shops, a supermarket, a health centre, a gym, restuarants, bars,cafe, a cinema (soon), and cultural facilities. Or perhaps to mean the Council residents on Balckhall Place who have received completely revamped apartments as well as the above. Or maybe you mean the new residents to the area - ie the ones who werent there before!

Its obvious that Smithfeild isnt perfect and there is still along way to go, particularly the inexplicable lack of attention to the southern part of the square. It has its problems and I would have plenty to say about some aspects of whats happened there. But its not a massive failure!


I was privy to some research on this previously and in general the regen is welcomed by the community. But to note the health centre is not viewed as a community facility at all and apart from the spar the yokels don't rate the new fancy dan shops and miss the old fruit and veg shop/wholesalers that was once there. Re; Blackhall place/marmion court - the locals hate the salmpn pink paint/render of the new(ish) duplexes along there and Queen st. A mixed bag
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Re: Thomas Street & James Street, Dublin!

Postby StephenC » Thu Oct 11, 2007 12:20 pm

Well the health centre is a community facility whether they think so or not. You have to pay for a doctor wherever you live. The mix and type of shops could be improved and probably will be as the area gains critical mass. But lets face it a quality supermarket on your doorstep is a bonus, even if its a tad overpriced.

Also Blackhall Place has been repainted since it was completed. Agreed the original colour scheme was awful and maybe the new one isnt much better.

As I said the area isnt perfect. But its a whole lots better than what was there pre-regeneration.

I am always wary of this idea of gentrification. The focus always seems to be on how discommoded the exsiting community has been. the fact is there wasnt a huge existing community here. Most had up sticks and left and the area was crumbling because of it. It also may be un-PC to say but most of the longer term residents are Council tenants - low rent, secure tenure, city centre location. The area around them had improved immeasurably and they didn't even have to put their hands in their pockets in most cases.
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Re: Thomas Street & James Street, Dublin!

Postby Devin » Thu Oct 11, 2007 4:13 pm

But they still seem to dominate the area despite all the gentrification and yuppification. When all the Corpo housing was built in the ‘80s the first tenants must have done nothing but spawn kids for the next 10 years solid because the place is full of teenagers. And now they use the pedestrianised streets of Smithfield Market and Smithfield Village as their playground, streets that were supposed to be full of sophisticated urbanites shopping in artisan delis. But there is only the local kids going shouting through the streets, having snogging competitions and throwing their junk food wrapping on the ground. Integration of the new and existing communitiues isn't too good in Smithfield.
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Re: Thomas Street & James Street, Dublin!

Postby StephenC » Thu Oct 11, 2007 4:22 pm

The courts complex here doesnt help
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Re: Thomas Street & James Street, Dublin!

Postby tommyt » Thu Oct 11, 2007 4:47 pm

Devin wrote:But they still seem to dominate the area despite all the gentrification and yuppification. When all the Corpo housing was built in the ‘80s the first tenants must have done nothing but spawn kids for the next 10 years solid because the place is full of teenagers. And now they use the pedestrianised streets of Smithfield Market and Smithfield Village as their playground, streets that were supposed to be full of sophisticated urbanites shopping in artisan delis. But there is only the local kids going shouting through the streets, having snogging competitions and throwing their junk food wrapping on the ground. Integration of the new and existing communitiues isn't too good in Smithfield.



I think your perception is most definitely more influenced by the shenanigans outside the Juvenile courts than by any serious demographic analysis Devin. From what little I know the locla community broadly welcome the regeneration. The existing community is also very tightly knit (ie made up of a limited number of family groups) that have been there for 3+ generations not really lending itself to immediate integration
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Re: Thomas Street & James Street, Dublin!

Postby lostexpectation » Thu Oct 11, 2007 5:59 pm

GregF wrote:I was just remembering the disgraceful condition Smithfield and North King Street were in compared to now. Compared to the acres of dereliction, wastegrounds, etc..(aka ground zero), it is an improvement.



isn't that the problem, deliberate dereliction and then they can force anything they like on an area
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