Thomas Street & James Street, Dublin!

Thomas Street & James Street, Dublin!

Postby GregF » Fri Aug 17, 2007 10:48 am

Anyone see the ever decrepit run down state of Thomas Street and James Street, Dublin. I've mentioned this here time and time again over the years and there is still no improvement with these potentially fine streets.. What a great historical area, with such fine landmarks as St Augustine and St John's Church, St Catherine's Church (where they hung Robert Emmet), the great Guinness brewery, the NCAD, St James Hospital etc....This vein also attracts thousands of visiters each year as the tourists make their trek to Guinness's.
Over the years shops that were icons to the area have closed, ie Fitzgeralds jeans shop (where Christy Moore bought an odd pair of dungarees ) and the latest victim to suffer Frawleys. Gilnas, the opticians, are the only shop on this block now. What is going on here? There is nothing but closed shops. Is there a protection racket in the area, I wonder? The shops that remain are kinda huckstery and tawdry. Come on Dublin City Council, make an effort and give this area of the city the attention it deserves. There have been great improvements with North King Street with the HARP project over the years, why not do the same here. It is disgracful really to see the condition of this prime inner capital city area in such a run down state especially in Celtic Tiger Ireland. You can see the look of bewilderment too on the tourist faces.
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Re: Thomas Street & James Street, Dublin!

Postby PVC King » Fri Aug 17, 2007 3:37 pm

All comes back to a comment made by Tom Phillips at the Smithfield enquiry in 2000.

"developers have no problem making development contributions once the sums are spent for the improvement of the immediate area or specific purpose the contribution is levied under"

Given the amount of development contributions paid out in this area over the past decade it should not look the way it does.

As for the retailers I am sorry to see Gilna's go they were very good on the one occaision I used them but Frawley's really isn't any loss. This area needs to go the way of Camden Street as it will never be a Capel or George's Street again.
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Re: Thomas Street & James Street, Dublin!

Postby Papworth » Fri Aug 17, 2007 3:43 pm

What I have really noticed over the last few years is the neglect of Guinness´s / Diagio of their own buildings along both side of James´s St. The windows use to sprakle and the brass would dazzle. Its obvious they were planning to move camp and sell up for some time now. Its hard to imagine drinking Guinness from some new brewery say up in Sandyford Indusrtrial estate or some other God / Guinness forsaken place. And also so much for Ahern´s Digital Hub that was going to be the greatest thing since Guinness to come to Dublin 8. Best get use to James´s Gate Dublin 18 or where-ever !!!:mad:
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Re: Thomas Street & James Street, Dublin!

Postby Rory W » Fri Aug 17, 2007 4:57 pm

It (the brewery) going to Balbriggan they'd never afford Sandyfor prices
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Re: Thomas Street & James Street, Dublin!

Postby Peter Fitz » Fri Aug 17, 2007 7:15 pm

Even though Frawley's was tack town, I was sad to see it go - very much part of the area, a local institution you might even say ;)
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Re: Thomas Street & James Street, Dublin!

Postby JuliusCaesar » Fri Aug 17, 2007 7:20 pm

My mother (age 80) loved Frawley's! It was very popular with her age group. Also Guiney's (Talbot St). Not everything has to be aimed at the young and trendy..........
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Re: Thomas Street & James Street, Dublin!

Postby PVC King » Fri Aug 17, 2007 7:28 pm

I'm sorry but all this nostalgia for a retail model based on selling terralean school apparell and bingo gear is turning my stomach.

George at ASDA sell school gear from £4.50 €6.50 a piece no stand alone retailer can survive selling Shanghai standard apparell.

I view the unit as a great opportunity for the street to put in a more viable anchor unit to draw the hoardes using the bus routes heading west.

This area needs a BID programme now.
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Re: Thomas Street & James Street, Dublin!

Postby aj » Sat Aug 18, 2007 4:37 pm

GregF wrote:Anyone see the ever derepit run down state of Thomas Street and James Street, Dublin. I've mentioned this here time and time again over the years and there is still no improvement with these potentially fine streets.. What a great historical area, with such fine landmarks as St Augustine and St John's Church, St Catherine's Church (where they hung Robert Emmet), the great Guinness brewery, the NCAD, St James Hospital etc....This vein also attarcts thousands of visiters each year as the tourists make their trek to Guinness's.
Over the years shops that were icons to the area have closed, ie Fitzgeralds jeans shop (where Christy Moore bought an odd pair of dungarees ) and the latest victim to suffer Frawleys. Gilnas, the opticians, are the only shop on this block now. What is going on here? There is nothing but closed shops. Is there a protection racket in the area, I wonder? The shops that remain are kinda huckstery and tawdry. Come on Dublin City Council, make an effort and give this area of the city the attention it deserves. There have been great improvements with North King Street with the HARP project over the years, why not do the same here. It is disgracful really to see the condition of this prime inner capital city area in such a run down state especially in Celtic Tiger Ireland. You can se the look of bewilderment too on the tourist faces.



this area has such huge potential. I was driving there last night and there are so may jems like St Catherines etc. The area has a pre celtic tiger feel and thankfully there is a lot of the orginal stock down there.
However the the greatest hinderence is the complete lack of resolve to deal with the unsocialable elements in this area. While sitting at traffic lights I watched one junkie urinate throught the door of an undertakers of all places. Two other junkies kicking forty colours of shite out of each other on the other side of the street.
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Re: Thomas Street & James Street, Dublin!

Postby Papworth » Mon Aug 20, 2007 4:22 pm

:mad: Diagio´s motto ´ Enjoy the sell off - of James´s Gate sensibly´
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Re: Thomas Street & James Street, Dublin!

Postby hutton » Sun Aug 26, 2007 11:14 pm

Had a look up this way today; some of the best sites in the city combined with some of the worst run - and what would seem to be deliberate derelicting - period buildings and older stock. In particular, old fire station beside NCAD is disgraceful; it's now a real contender for a boo-boo award of having "the longest left scaffolding in place while the building rots". (It would seem to have replaced St Georges Church in that regard, as Eugene O' Connor is pressing ahead there with restoration of that buildings envelope).

However the real Shock! Horror! story must be no. 85 James's St/ Thomas St - it's the building on the corner with Watling St, a stand alone Georgian-style with a black frontdoor. Out of historical significance in terms of connections with the brewery, there is a brown plaque, and for many years this house was well-maintained...but not anymore; broken windows, dirt, etc all combine to form a completely derelicted look.
Presumably this belongs to Guinness/ Diageo, as it has one of their billboards on the side - and if so it is more the shame. It is intolerable that such a building should be let rot, and IMO DCC must look at either CPOing or using the powers under the derelict sites act. Either way something must be done - it is a real disgrace :mad:
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Re: Thomas Street & James Street, Dublin!

Postby Papworth » Tue Aug 28, 2007 4:08 pm

Maybe Diageo should twin the new Guinness´s with the San Migual brewery outside Malaga airport as in the future the first thing one will see leaving Dublin airport will the new Guinness´s in its airport setting. Also the youth of the country regard Guinness as not such a cool drink to seen drinking yet on their holidays its a must be seen with fashion icon.
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Re: Thomas Street & James Street, Dublin!

Postby shaun » Tue Aug 28, 2007 9:12 pm

This area has some of the most interesting architecture in town, of which the Guinness hop-store and surrounding buildings are worthy of preserved monument staus in any city.

There are some excellent flats complexes showing Amsterdam school influences, take a look at Oliver Bond flats since they've been renovated.

I agree with the Guinness thinking here , the whole complex is looking like shite and it's a great pity, Thomas street is lifeless except for wandering tourists.

So take a walk up Meath street, down Thomas street and sample the atmosphere because globalisation or total decay or something is going to change it all soon.
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Re: Thomas Street & James Street, Dublin!

Postby kefu » Tue Aug 28, 2007 10:42 pm

I wouldn't say the Christchurch end of Thomas Street is a complete lost cause. There's a few nice furniture/interiors shops have opened up along a stretch on the northern side of the street and that usually means more will come. As we know from Capel Street, this is no bad thing and could give the street a nice feel if it became associated with that instead of tatty old shops like Frawleys.
One point that should be made is that on-street parking/loading bays is critically important for certain types of shops. I can see Capel Street beginning to suffer since the "traffic-calming" project, which removed about half of the available space for cars. Though then again with house deliveries, maybe it's a bit of a moot point.
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"Heart of the City - it's alive inside"...

Postby hutton » Thu Aug 30, 2007 12:36 pm

Thought I'd add a few shots to illustrate the points so far made. First off No 84, the house near the corner of Watling St, opposite the main entrance of Guinness's.

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and a side view with the Guinness billboard stating "a surge of inspiration"...(Is it possible to confirm Guiness's as the owner of the house, as they also have a plaque on the front?)

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Meanwhile a close up of the plaque on the front, followed by 3 other plaques that were also erected by Guinness's on other buildings along James's/ Thomas Streets. One wonder whether Diageo would be so civic-minded these days ...

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Also adjacent to the hopstore on the corner of Thomas St and Crane Lane are these 18th C buildings, simply being left to rot -

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while here is the Crane Lane elevation of the same corner; a good example of a now rare traditional-style shopfront. Thousands of tourists pass this way everyday; ah well at least they can admire the authentic Irish approach to heritage protection. Well done to both the authorities and the owners.

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Across the road on the south side of Thoomas St, is a substantial site adjacent to IAWs sitting idle. Gets my prize for the most inappropriate billboard ever, courtesy of Guinness - "Heart of the city...It's alive inside" :eek:

Image
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Re: Thomas Street & James Street, Dublin!

Postby hutton » Thu Aug 30, 2007 1:00 pm

Heading east, going back towards the city-centre, tourists and other visitors can continue to soak up the athmosphere. These well-maintained gems are all on the south side of Thomas St. Who owns them?

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Image

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It would appear that the only properties along this stretch that are maintained to any kind of standard are a bar and a hostel, the bar in pink can be seen in the first photo, while the yellow hostel stands between the buildings shown in the last two snaps.

These are also on the south side of Thomas St, east of St Catherines. Again either poorly maintained/ being let go -

Image

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Continuing east, beside NCAD, on the north side of Thomas St are these properties:

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While almost adjacent, at the junction with Meath St is this building - now in scaffolding for by my estimate for almost 10 years (I am open to correction if wrong):

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A closer view of the side of the scaffolding shows this; maybe the real intention is revealed?

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Finally - and again continuing east - are these at the corner with Vicar St. Again who is the owner - might it be Harry Crosbie given his Vicar St venue interests? Any info would be appreciated. In any case I note yet another inappropriate billboard adverising Guinness; knowingly or not they thru their images are really running the risk of becoming synonymous with dereliction in this area. A real pity given that in the recent past (as already noted by other posters) they were once notable for maintaining their holdings to a template standard :(

Image
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Re: Thomas Street & James Street, Dublin!

Postby alonso » Thu Aug 30, 2007 1:01 pm

are the latter ones not simply awaiting redevelopment? One of the digital hub planning applications is for a site adjacent IAWS. Is this the same site? And the Manor Park one was for across the road, remember 51 storeys and all that. Obviously they'll be back in again. Now I'm not sure if they're related to your pics in any way. Perhaps someone could confirm?

edit: I was referring to hutton's first post
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Re: Thomas Street & James Street, Dublin!

Postby hutton » Thu Aug 30, 2007 1:05 pm

alonso wrote:are the latter ones not simply awaiting redevelopment? One of the digital hub planning applications is for a site adjacent IAWS. Is this the same site? And the Manor Park one was for across the road, remember 51 storeys and all that. Obviously they'll be back in again. Now I'm not sure if they're related to your pics in any way. Perhaps someone could confirm?


Indeed Alonso, any information would be welcome. That said most of what's shown here is period stock clearly being let go - and that should obviously not be tolerated.
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Re: Thomas Street & James Street, Dublin!

Postby phil » Thu Aug 30, 2007 1:45 pm

The interesting thing about areas like this is that when they are eventually redeveloped the various property developers involved will be heralded for the successful regeneration of the area, when much of the reason for its dilapidation in the first place has been the large-scale property speculation indicated in Hutton's images above. In terms of conserving this street it seems that Dublin City Council are at the mercy of various land-owners who in reality don't really care about either the physical or social continuity of the area.
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Re: Thomas Street & James Street, Dublin!

Postby Sarsfield » Thu Aug 30, 2007 6:20 pm

I travel along this sorry route pretty much every day.

I thought most of both sides of James's/Thomas Streets were sold by the OPW in the last year or 2 as part of the Digital Hub development. Remember the 'mini-Manhattan' proposal that did the rounds last year?

Some of the conditions of sale included redevelopment and provision of office space for digital hub use.

As for the scaffolding on the front of the NCAD, whie there's been hoarding there for years, I'm pretty sure the scaffolding has only gone up very recently. I think I posted a question on this site at the time asking what was being planned. Edit: around the beginning of June accoroding to my post http://www.archiseek.com/content/showpost.php?p=67412&postcount=27
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Re: Thomas Street & James Street, Dublin!

Postby jackwade » Thu Aug 30, 2007 11:38 pm

Does anyone know the status of this project by HKR architects? It would involve the demolition of the pink pub buildings in Hutton's photo above.
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Re: Thomas Street & James Street, Dublin!

Postby Devin » Fri Aug 31, 2007 12:44 am

jackwade wrote:Does anyone know the status of this project by HKR architects?
It was granted by DCC and is currently awaiting an appeal decision from ABP.

The 51-storey etc. proposal by Manor Park Homes stole all the attention when it was lodged last year, but this mega Dig. Hub scheme on the opposite side of Thomas Street - the ’Windmill Site’ - went through at around the same time. The prot. struc No. 84 Thomas Street would be refurbished as part of the scheme.

The tall building is not by HKR. It’s by an English firm - John Pardey Architects - but HKR are doing all the rest (same set-up as the Arnotts site, incidentally, with John Pardey doing one building & HKR doing the rest).

Both the Manor Park & Windmill schemes are due an ABP decision on the same day, so they are obviously being looked at together (perhaps partly because they both propose high buildings but are both located outside the designated areas for high buildings). Details:

http://www.pleanala.ie/casenum/221294.htm
http://www.pleanala.ie/casenum/219930.htm


As Sarsfield said, the NCAD / Fire Station building on Thomas Street has been hoarded off since 2001, but work has recently begun on Ref. 4812/05



[align=center]~~~~~~~~~~~~~~[/align]



hutton wrote:Image
Hutton, good document of Thomas Street’s wonderful but sadly decaying period stock. The building that was in the above gap was only demolished in 2003 (see below) … nice old building …… don’t go ….


Image
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Re: Thomas Street & James Street, Dublin!

Postby igy » Fri Aug 31, 2007 9:34 am

Why would it have been demolished if there's apparently no replacement planned*? It didn't look like it was in that bad shape?

* - or at least, nothing's happened since 2003
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Re: Thomas Street & James Street, Dublin!

Postby tommyt » Fri Aug 31, 2007 9:53 am

http://www.etenders.gov.ie/search/search_show.aspx?ID=AUG091047


Corpo tender out today

'Dublin City Council invites tenders for the engagement of a consultant design team for the design of an Environmental Improvement Scheme for Thomas Street, Dublin 8'
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Re: Thomas Street & James Street, Dublin!

Postby alonso » Fri Aug 31, 2007 10:39 am

Manor Park APPEALED that decision!!!! What a boon for their planning consultants! Not only do they get their fee for lodging a lost cause, but they go on to get paid to lodge the appeal. Fckin hell. More money than sense.
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Re: Thomas Street & James Street, Dublin!

Postby hutton » Fri Aug 31, 2007 11:01 am

tommyt wrote:http://www.etenders.gov.ie/search/search_show.aspx?ID=AUG091047


Corpo tender out today

'Dublin City Council invites tenders for the engagement of a consultant design team for the design of an Environmental Improvement Scheme for Thomas Street, Dublin 8'


Jaysus is that the power of Archiseek? An illustrated bitch/ moan yesterday - and by today theyre issuing tenders!! :eek: :D

Some good information and illustrations added there]http://i174.photobucket.com/albums/w108/hutton001/PICT0058.jpg[/IMG]
Image

Why are these being let rot? They abut the hop store complex on one side, and the redbrick victorian used by the digital hub on the other, so it's not as if the footplate could form part of a bigger scheme. Would it be cynical to suspect that the owners are simply letting them to rot so they can replace the 3 floor corner with a 5 floor Henrietta Hag type scheme? If this were to transpire it would amount to rewarding anti-social ruthless speculation with pp - something I have touched on in the thread "Endangered Georgian Dublin". There is no excuse for this. :mad:

Meanwhile No. 84 across the street should not be left derelict, it's not as if it's restoration or active use is materially dependent on the John Pardey/ HKR Manor Homes scheme - particularily as their proposal shows retaining the house abutting the scheme. Again, unless a better explanation is forthcoming, there is no excuse for this.

Image

Also the building shown by Devin as demolished in 2003 is very odd - again it's not as if the cleared area completes a larger site. 4 years on with no sign of anything, it would appear that the owner is incapable of developing; here and some others already mentioned, perhaps time for CPOs ?

Then (2003)...
Image

Now...
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