Dorset St (Upper)

Re: Dorset St (Upper)

Postby GregF » Thu Mar 08, 2007 5:09 pm

hutton wrote:Where did you hear it was to be demolished???

Appeals have already been lodged with the bord on this - so surely any such move would be contempt of BP and wholly illegal.

*watching space with interest*...


This is a case well worth appealing.

Becuse he may not be as fashionable today as Joyce, Sheridan's house, ruin and all as it is should not be wiped away. Everything should be done to keep and restore it as a historical and cultural marker for the city.
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Re: Bye-bye more historic Dublin

Postby manifesta » Thu Mar 08, 2007 7:54 pm

Oh, I see I've created unneccesary panic again. Don't listen to me, I'm just a classic example of what happens when modifiers mix and a glass-half-empty mind takes over. I read hutton's post:

hutton wrote:permission has already been granted (on the 8th) to whack the house.


and saw this: (on the 8th) = whack the house
instead of this: permission has already been granted = (on the 8th)

The record will likely show that planning permission to knock the site was granted on the 8th of Feb, not that (as I assumed) the site is going to be demolished on the 8th of March. If someone passes by the throng of weeping Sheridan acolytes/protesters on their way home from work, please tell them I'm sorry. They can unchain themselves from the building for now.
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Re: Dorset St (Upper)

Postby Paul Clerkin » Thu Mar 22, 2007 4:21 am

Redevelopment of Richard Brinsley Sheridan's house appealed
The Irish Times

Dublin City Council has failed in its duty to protect a symbol of Irish cultural achievement by approving plans to demolish the birthplace of 18th century playwright Richard Brinsley Sheridan, according to Senator David Norris. Last month the council granted permission to Shane Murphy for the demolition of the Whig MP's home at 12 Upper Dorset Street to make way for an apartment block. The building is in a derelict condition and is missing its top two floors. Murphy bought number 12 six months ago and number 13 an adjoining property, which will also be demolished, a year ago.

http://www.ireland.com/newspaper/property/2007/0322/1173880692811.html
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Re: Dorset St (Upper)

Postby aj » Thu Mar 22, 2007 12:15 pm

Paul Clerkin wrote:Redevelopment of Richard Brinsley Sheridan's house appealed
The Irish Times

Dublin City Council has failed in its duty to protect a symbol of Irish cultural achievement by approving plans to demolish the birthplace of 18th century playwright Richard Brinsley Sheridan, according to Senator David Norris. Last month the council granted permission to Shane Murphy for the demolition of the Whig MP's home at 12 Upper Dorset Street to make way for an apartment block. The building is in a derelict condition and is missing its top two floors. Murphy bought number 12 six months ago and number 13 an adjoining property, which will also be demolished, a year ago.

http://www.ireland.com/newspaper/property/2007/0322/1173880692811.html



yet another disgrace.. I am certain that the Corpo have given up trying to protect whats left of the North Georgian Inner City
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Re: Dorset St (Upper)

Postby GregF » Fri Mar 23, 2007 3:39 pm

This is bad! Th northside of the city has been decimated over the years and this decision doesn't help. At least a placque should be placed on what ever is concocted here to mark Sheridan's birthplace and house.
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Re: Dorset St (Upper)

Postby Zap » Fri Mar 23, 2007 5:25 pm

What's the point of a plaque? If his home isn't worth preserving, them maybe we should just rate him as forgettable.
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Re: Dorset St (Upper)

Postby ctesiphon » Fri Mar 23, 2007 5:56 pm

Wasn't there already a plaque that was removed? So apparently not even the original plaque was worth preserving... :(
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Re: Dorset St (Upper)

Postby Sloan » Wed May 09, 2007 5:32 pm

An Bord Pleanala case details for 222271
Demolition of no. 12(a protected structure) and no. 13 Upper Dorset Street and construction of 6 storey mixed use development comprising retail use and 9 apartments and all ancillary works. 12/13 Dorset Street Upper, Dublin 1.
Lodged: 06/03/2007
Party 1: Shane Murphy*()
Party 2: Senator David Norris*(Appellant)
Party 3: An Taisce*(Appellant)
Party 4: St. Saviours Dominican Priory*(Appellant)
Party 5: Aids Fund Housing Project*(Appellant)
EIS: No
Issue Code 1: Protected Structure
Planning Authority: Dublin City Council Reg. Ref.: 6907/06
Case is due to be decided by 09-07-2007
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Re: Dorset St (Upper)

Postby aj » Wed May 09, 2007 8:07 pm

Sloan wrote:An Bord Pleanala case details for 222271
Demolition of no. 12(a protected structure) and no. 13 Upper Dorset Street and construction of 6 storey mixed use development comprising retail use and 9 apartments and all ancillary works. 12/13 Dorset Street Upper, Dublin 1.
Lodged: 06/03/2007
Party 1: Shane Murphy*()
Party 2: Senator David Norris*(Appellant)
Party 3: An Taisce*(Appellant)
Party 4: St. Saviours Dominican Priory*(Appellant)
Party 5: Aids Fund Housing Project*(Appellant)
EIS: No
Issue Code 1: Protected Structure
Planning Authority: Dublin City Council Reg. Ref.: 6907/06
Case is due to be decided by 09-07-2007



lets all object !
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Re: Dorset St (Upper)

Postby ConK » Mon May 14, 2007 10:02 am

I've objected already . Permission was granted by the idiots in Dublin City Planning. But it costs over €200 to appeal it to An Bord Pleannala. So that's where I gave up.
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Re: Dorset St (Upper)

Postby archipimp » Mon May 14, 2007 9:46 pm

whats the point of putting buildings on the protected structures list if some developer can just come along and knock them as usual!?
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Re: Dorset St (Upper)

Postby lostexpectation » Thu May 17, 2007 3:02 am

is this this place


Heritage group calls for repeal of monuments Act
Tim O'Brien

Irish Times
Thursday, May 17, 2007

Leading academics and archaeologists yesterday launched the Heritage
Protection Alliance, to campaign for repeal of the National Monuments
Act 2004.

The alliance identified 16 sites island-wide, including three in the
Taoiseach's constituency, which it says are inadequately protected. It
claims the 2004 Act provides for the destruction rather than
preservation of such sites.

Included in the list is the home of Richard Brinsley Sheridan, which
the alliance pointed out was referred to by Taoiseach Bertie Ahern in
his address at Westminster on Tuesday.

Commenting on the number of Irishmen who had links with Westminster, Mr
Ahern said: "Not the least of those Richard Brinsley Sheridan, who
served in this House, was born in Dorset Street in my constituency and
is now buried nearby in Poets Corner at Westminster Abbey." Brinsley
Sheridan's birthplace is currently the subject of an application for
demolition.


The past ten years have seen an unprecedented number of sites being
subjected to unnecessary destruction, according to the alliance which
includes Prof Donnchadh Ó Corráin, Dr David Edwards, Dr Muireann Ní
Bhrolcháin, Dr Pádraig Lenihan, Rev Brian Kennaway and Senator David
Norris.

They concluded "that Irish archaeology and protection given to heritage
is in crisis".

In a statement, the new alliance said: "During the past 10 years over
10,000 sites of archaeological potential have been investigated in the
Republic of Ireland under licence to the Department of the Environment
and Heritage. Approximately 70 per cent of these sites have tested
'archaeologically positive', a phenomenal number by any standards. To
put this number in perspective, it should be recalled that in 1989 a
mere 101 sites were excavated."
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Re: Dorset St (Upper)

Postby GregF » Thu May 17, 2007 9:59 am

I thought the very same when I heard Bertie refer to where Sheridan was born.

If those who were listening to Bertie's speech in the magnificant OTT chamber could only see the appalling state of Sheridan's former home and locality today. It's an embarassment the condition of this area of the city.
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Re: Dorset St (Upper)

Postby Peter Fitz » Sat May 19, 2007 8:39 am

well at least its increased awareness ...
got a good mention yesterday evening on drivetime, mark clinton from An T was on.
not up online yet.
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Re: Dorset St (Upper)

Postby Walker » Sat May 19, 2007 1:20 pm

Image[/QUOTE]

In his address at Westminster last Tuesday, when commenting on the number of Irishmen who had links with Westminster, our Taoiseach said:

Bertie Ahern: "Not the least of those Richard Brinsley Sheridan, who served in this House, was born in Dorset Street in my constituency and is now buried nearby in Poets Corner at Westminster Abbey."
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Re: Dorset St (Upper)

Postby Sloan » Tue Jul 10, 2007 6:35 pm

An Bord Pleanala Appeal Ref No. 222271 (re demolition of No.12 (Protected Structure) & 13 Upper Dorset St.)

There is a new objective date set for deciding this appeal by 23 Aug 2007
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Re: Dorset St (Upper)

Postby Peter Fitz » Mon Sep 24, 2007 12:30 am

So what think ye of this ?

Richard Brinsley Sheridan wasn't born here
Sunday Independent

The preservation of 12 Dorset Street, the birthplace of Richard Brinsley Sheridan and one of the great cause’s celebres of the conservation movement, was a costly farce. It can now be revealed that the great playwright was born somewhere else.

Sheridan's birthplace in the north inner-city was mentioned by the Taoiseach in his historic address at Westminster and threats to the preservation of this birthplace provoked furious protests by Senator David Norris, An Taisce and biographer Fintan O'Toole.

Even An Bord Pleanala got involved citing 12 Dorset Street's "historical importance" last month as they slapped down a developer who planned to demolish the listed building.

But now it can be revealed the hullabaloo over the preservation puts Sheridan's great comedy of manners School for Scandal in the ha'penny place.

Meticulous research carried out by leading historians based on Trinity College, seen by the SINDO proves conclusively the house was never owned by the Sheridan family and the playwright couldn't have been born at 12 Dorset Street.

And the historians discovered in further research that the great writer, duelist and Whig politician was almost certainly born in a nearby house demolished in 1885 by the Dominican Order to make way for St. Saviour's Convent. His real birthplace no longer exists.

For Malahide developer Shane Murphy, the stunning evidence may mean a huge payday. Mr Murphy's original plan to build a six-storey apartment complex on the site he bought last year can now be resurrected. But the findings also suggest that the relentless campaign by conservationists and the literati to save Sheridan's birthplace has been an absurd charade based on uncorroborated research.

Eneclann Ltd, the award winning Trinity College campus company, was commissioned by a private client five years ago to explore whether Sheridan was born at 12 Dorset Street, as claimed in recent biographies by Fintan O'Toole in 1999 and Linda Kelly two years earlier.

The 18 page report by Eneclann found the false assumption about Sheridan's birthplace came about because of different numbering systems for the street dating back more than 150 years ago. Sheridan was born in 1751 and the historians found that numbers were not assigned to Dorset Street Upper until the 1770's 20 years after Sheridan's birth.

Crucially, from the 1770s to 1848 there were some changes in the numbering system. After 1848, the numbers were permanently fixed as they are today.

The research found the house recorded as No. 12 (Sheridan's birthplace) in the first half of the 19th century would not correspond to the same house today. Researchers found an early deed for the house currently known as no. 12 Dorset Street Upper dated 1783 and records a lease on the property between Joseph Ellis & John Smithy. At this time, the property was recorded as No. 10 Dorset Street.

What they did discover was that Thomas Sheridan, Richard's father, held a lease on an adjoining property what is no 12 Dorset Street. They are convinced that the actual Sheridan house was one of those purchased by the Dominican Order around August 1883, which were subsequently demolished to build St. Saviour's Priory...


If this is true, (you wouldn't know given the level of drivel that the Sunday Indo publish as a matter of course), it makes the case for retention / restoration of No. 12 less compelling - but only given the reality of its decrepit state at the hands of consecutive owners & ultimately DCC inaction.

However, regardless of what stands there now & the controversy that goes with it, it doesn't take away from the fact that what was proposed for this site was and still is utter, out of scale, cheap crap - well in line with its recently constructed sisters up the street.

Whatever happens, Mr. Murphy's proposal is not appropriate for this site. In the wake of a belated ABP refusal on grounds of aesthetics/design at the Hickey's site, let’s see them stick their collective heads above the parapet once again & save Dorset Street from yet another profit driven affliction.
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Re: Dorset St (Upper)

Postby hutton » Mon Sep 24, 2007 1:20 am

Peter FitzPatrick wrote:However, regardless of what stands there now & the controversy that goes with it, it doesn't take away from the fact that what was proposed for this site was and still is utter, out of scale, cheap crap - well in line with its recently constructed sisters up the street....Whatever happens, Mr. Murphy's proposal is not appropriate for this site.


Agreed. Another bargain-land block like that on Granby Row/ Dorset St corner or the horror at the bottom of Henrietta St (also on the same axis) should not be let happen again. Afaik there was no case made by Murphy that the house wasn't the birthplace, ie he didn't outline "the exceptional circumstances" as required by the act, and instead willfully set about replacing what he believed was the Sheridan house with this -

Image
Image

An ignorant application that if it had been permitted, would have been perfectly at home with the substandard dross down the road at Henrietta St corner -

Image

...and also up the road at Granby Row -

Image

I think Dorset St deserves better and I suspect that with ABPs HQ not being a million miles away on Marlborough St, that their thinking may not be dis-similar. Ultimately what was proposed was utterly unsuitable, so a good decision as far as I'm concerned.
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Re: Dorset St (Upper)

Postby Sloan » Mon Sep 24, 2007 10:26 am

Extract from The Bord Order
DECISION
REFUSE permission for the above proposed development based on the reasons and considerations set out below.

MATTERS CONSIDERED
In making its decision, the Board had regard to those matters to which, by virtue of the Planning and Development Acts and Regulations made thereunder, it was required to have regard. Such matters included any submissions and observations received by it in accordance with statutory provisions.

REASONS AND CONSIDERATIONS
1. The proposed development involves the demolition of a Protected Structure as identified in the Dublin City Council’s Record of Protected Structures. It is considered that ‘exceptional circumstances’, as required by section 57 (10)(b) of the Planning and Development Act, 2000, have not been presented in support of the proposed demolition of a Protected Structure. It is considered, therefore, that the proposed development would be contrary to the conservation principles of the current Dublin City Development Plan and to the proper planning and sustainable development of the area.

2. Having regard to the restricted size of the site and the pattern of development in the area, it is considered that, by reason of its height, mass, materials, design, proximity to boundaries and location forward of the front boundary line on the site, the proposed development would result in an overbearing form of development and such a significant visual impact as to diminish the integrity and importance of the adjacent Protected Structure, its setting and the Conservation Area in proximity to the site. It is the policy of Dublin City Council to protect the curtilage of protected structures from any works which would cause loss or damage to the special character of the protected structure. The Proposed development would be contrary to policy H2 of the current Dublin City Council Development Plan and would, therefore, be contrary to the proper planning and sustainable development of the area.





Condition 2 shows the adjacent Protected Structure in a conservation area provides additional protection of this site
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Re: Dorset St (Upper)

Postby Devin » Sat Nov 15, 2008 5:47 pm

Here is the revised proposal - a Georgian reproduction - for the Dorset Street house with Brinsley Sheridan association, the previous one having been approved by DCC but refused by ABP. The planning ref. is 4063/08. AI has been requested. As far as I know the existing bit of Georgian house is being retained and incorporated into this repro.


Image
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Re: Dorset St (Upper)

Postby gunter » Sat Nov 15, 2008 11:25 pm

A step in the right direction if no. 12 is to be restored, but I don't know about that mirror image next door, or the extra dormer storey!

Image
Photograph of an intact no. 12, which appears in Peter Pearson's 'The Heart of Dublin'

The last thing we need right now is for lazy, early 1980s style, 'pastiche' to make a reappearance and taint the debate on the need to consider genuine restoration projects in specific cases.

As with Devin's post on 62 -65 Thomas Street, I think the need to develop a contemporary architectural language for the individual plot, in-fill, site couldn't be clearer.
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Re: Dorset St (Upper)

Postby gunter » Tue Aug 18, 2009 1:16 pm

From Phoenix Magazine, August 2009:

[INDENT]RAISE a toast to developer Shane Murphy, who’s finally got permission
to redevelop the Dorset Street home that was not Brinsley Sheridan’s,
the 18th century playwright and politician.
Back in 2007 a row emerged when the remains of the house, listed on
the belief it was the home of Brinsley Sheridan, were permitted to be
demolished by Dublin City Council.
In went the appeal by local Senator David Norris to An Bord Pleanála,
supported by An Taisce, and planning journalist Ruadhán MacEoin. And
down in flames went the permission.
However it then emerged that although Brinsley Sheridan lived at 12
Dorset Street, it actually wasn’t this house, as prior to 1840 the
street was renumbered – with the “real” Sheridan house inadvertently
demolished years ago.
Hence Murphy was free to get the house de-listed, and replace it with
a new development. But the saga took another twist when Murphy instead
applied to reinstate the house in which Brinsley Sheridan wasn’t born
in – and match it with a twin Georgian style townhouse that was never
there.
Although a reinstatement, the Dominican priory next-door appealed the
scheme to An Bord Pleanála. Again Norris and MacEoin also filed
observations – but this time welcoming the redevelopment.
Happily Murphy has just got consent from the Bord – but with this
stipulation: “details of the plaque to be placed on the wall to
commemorate the proximity of Brinsley Sheridan shall be submitted to,
and agreed with the planning authority prior to commencement of
development”.
“A plaque on all your houses!” Goldhawk says. [/INDENT]

''A plaque on all your houses'' I do like that:) leave it to Goldhawk to murder Shakespeare!

Probably better than 'A plague on both your mortgages'
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Re: Dorset St (Upper)

Postby gunter » Thu Oct 29, 2009 11:53 pm

A plaque on both your houses! . . . . one plaque might not be enough.

According to this 1994 Abbey Theatre programme for 'The Plough and the Stars' (mentioned elsewhere), not only Brinsley Sheridan, but Seán O'Casey too, was born in this house!! The floorboards must have been creaking with dodgy playwrights :)

ImageImage

Wait till Goldhawk gets hold of this :)
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Re: Dorset St (Upper)

Postby Global Citizen » Fri Oct 30, 2009 9:43 am

Well spotted Gunter.
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Re: Dorset St (Upper)

Postby Burner » Sun Nov 01, 2009 5:49 am

I'm trying to track down the name of a book which dealt with the development of DOrset Street and nearby parts of the North City during the 19th century. I heard the author interviewed on the Pat Kenny radio show two or three years ago but cannot recall the name. Any suggestions?
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