Part L and Planning Permission

Part L and Planning Permission

Postby jfkdublin » Sat May 12, 2007 11:01 am

I have been out of the country for a few years so I'm not familiar with the current planning regs. A friend has asked my to apply for planning permission on their behalf and while completing the form I noticed the following point:
"Please submit evidence of compliance with Part L of the Building Regulations".
Is this just a case of me sending the drawings to Kingspan or a similar company to produce a Heat Loss Assessment and recommend the type of insulation that will be used?
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Re: Part L and Planning Permission

Postby JacobsSlave » Tue May 15, 2007 11:36 pm

Is it a one of house????

What planning form is this?/

Its strange that the LA would ask this at planning stage considering that all plannings must comply with the latest planning regulations. Also, if you were to preform a heat loss calculation, this would involve knowing exactly all materials being used and glazing manufacturer etc. These are items of which the planning authority have no controll over as to be honest, once the materilas fit the aesthetic criteria, they dont care as long as the building regulations as followed??
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Re: Part L and Planning Permission

Postby JB » Wed May 16, 2007 8:50 am

Sounds like they want a preliminary BER cert done from the plans.
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Re: Part L and Planning Permission

Postby henno » Mon May 28, 2007 1:37 pm

You will find that the application form for planning permission has become standardised under the new planning act....

that question is no longer valid, nor can the LA impose those types of questions on planning applications...

anyway, compliance with Part L can only be done after construction and not pre-planning....
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Re: Part L and Planning Permission

Postby 250882 » Wed May 30, 2007 5:00 pm

The new planning application forms are MEANT to be standardised but if you look at them every council has added in their own few questions and moved portions around, The compliance with part L can be done by downloading the DEAP software from the http://www.SEI.ie website, but be warned its not an easy thing to fill out. The official line is that trained energy assessors in private practice with professional indemnity insurance etc. only can certify the energy rating of a house................... but there arent any yet because there is no training available and the software hasnt been finished and all this was meant to happen before jan 1 2007.
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Re: Part L and Planning Permission

Postby henno » Wed May 30, 2007 9:25 pm

250882 wrote:The new planning application forms are MEANT to be standardised but if you look at them every council has added in their own few questions and moved portions around, The compliance with part L can be done by downloading the DEAP software from the http://www.SEI.ie website, but be warned its not an easy thing to fill out. The official line is that trained energy assessors in private practice with professional indemnity insurance etc. only can certify the energy rating of a house................... but there arent any yet because there is no training available and the software hasnt been finished and all this was meant to happen before jan 1 2007.



ive just finished the training course and the software is nearly finished, just some interface bugs left..... i should get the results within 2 weeks.. there already over 30 persons who have completed the course...
the proper deap software will only be available to practitioners, the software is password protected... so lay people may not be able to complete their own assessment....

the earliest a dwelling could require a BER cert would be around 1 st june.. this is assuming a 3 month planning application and 8 week build... so things will be up and going by the time they are required....

back on the planning application form issue.... what councils have asked for info above and beyond the regs?? what kind of information are they asking??... i know kildare co oo were notorious for trying to enforce their own planning requirements for validation, are they still at it???......... there may be legal implications for invalidation for something not required in the regs..... does anyone know of any clause in the regs that allows councils to add their own validation requirements???
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Re: Part L and Planning Permission

Postby 250882 » Tue Jul 03, 2007 9:15 am

I think you are actually looking at the supplimentary information section, the application wont be invalidated without it but it will probably be asked in a further information. The only way to prove compliance with part L is to fill out the DEAP spreadsheet which is available on the SEI website.
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Re: Part L and Planning Permission

Postby henno » Tue Jul 03, 2007 10:03 am

to be honest, a preliminary BER compiled by a non trained person is worth nothing...... the LA should not be asking for such a thing.....

but another point here is the difference between planning and building control... it is not the remit of the planning section to judge building regulation compliance, nor should they be looking for any information on this... i mean, its completely open to the applicant what buildign method he/she uses after plannin gso any preliminary compliance with Part L counts for nothing.....
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Re: Part L and Planning Permission

Postby wearnicehats » Tue Jul 03, 2007 2:42 pm

It's an old form - not asked for on the new one.

But get this

It will happen - the standards required in Part L are to be changed soon and will become 60% more onerous

You might not at the moment but you will have to prove Part L compliance very soon

Even if you get your planning, you're passed the Part L exemption stage so your final built house will have to comply anyway. If you want an energy cert in order to sell it you'll have to have a BER assessment done anyway. If it doesn't comply when it's built you won't get a cert, you can't sign off on planning compliance and you'll probably have to tear it down

If you are sensible enough to realise the danger in this you will use the SEI software to see if you are even close to a B1 rating. B2 is on the way out, forget about a C rating (all new UK housing must have an A1 rating by 2016 ). If you do this before planning you will avoid the embarassment of realising that the redesign involved to meet the regs is so radical that you will have to resubmit your planning

Personally I think the requirement to show Part L compliance should not only have stayed but should have been made more onerous
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Re: Part L and Planning Permission

Postby henno » Tue Jul 03, 2007 3:01 pm

I'm still at a loss as to what statutory reason preliminary compliance with Part L serves?

unless the particular construction method becomes a planning requirement and enforced condition, and detailed construction drawings are required fo rplanning, then this doesn't make any sense. OK, it may happen, (i obviously would love if it did) but i seriously cannot see how or who will enact this.... currently the state of 'planning condition enforcement 'is in the (shambolic) hands of private agents who, lets be honest, provide 'opinions of compliance' that aren't worth the paper they are written on.

the whole planning system needs to be overhauled and a system introduced that has more technically and esthetically trained and minded planners who should be involved in the whole process from inception to final completition...... giving on going advice to the clients on a 'partnership' basis instead of the 'arms length' bureaucratic system we have now.....
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Re: Part L and Planning Permission

Postby wearnicehats » Tue Jul 03, 2007 4:35 pm

henno wrote:I'm still at a loss as to what statutory reason preliminary compliance with Part L serves?

unless the particular construction method becomes a planning requirement and enforced condition, and detailed construction drawings are required fo rplanning, then this doesn't make any sense. OK, it may happen, (i obviously would love if it did) but i seriously cannot see how or who will enact this.... currently the state of 'planning condition enforcement 'is in the (shambolic) hands of private agents who, lets be honest, provide 'opinions of compliance' that aren't worth the paper they are written on.

the whole planning system needs to be overhauled and a system introduced that has more technically and esthetically trained and minded planners who should be involved in the whole process from inception to final completition...... giving on going advice to the clients on a 'partnership' basis instead of the 'arms length' bureaucratic system we have now.....


I think you need to do the training course again.

The one I was on was very clear. Be seen to comply or don't get your certification.

Why wouldn't you do it? If you submit plans for a house you can be refused on the basis that it doesn't comply with the minimum area standards for rooms, or if it doesn't comply to Part M for disabled access. The conservation of energy is more important than either of those.
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Re: Part L and Planning Permission

Postby henno » Tue Jul 03, 2007 5:00 pm

Assuming we are talking about an individual dwelling here, then a planning application cannot be refused if it does not comply with building regulations. There is currently no statutory onus on a designer of a dwelling to have planning drawings comply with building regulations........ I can give you numerous examples of permissions that have been given where the design did not meet part M.....i am not stating that this is acceptable, in my opinion its not, however that is whats happening.....

it is the onus of the designer, contractor, client and ultimately, certifier during the construction process, to ensure that the construction meets the building regs,...
regarding BER, this obviously can achieve higher grades by doing a preliminary cert and offering advise on how to improve after... but to suggest that this should be done (under the current planning system) before planning is even granted is putting the cart so far in front of the horse that he'd need a taxi to get back to it.....

can you give me an example where the planning authority requested detailed construction drawings prior to granting of permission for a dwelling in order to assess its compliance with building regulations???

most councils send out a leaflet AFTER final grant setting out the Buildign Control System... see the kildare one here : http://www.environ.ie/en/Publications/DevelopmentandHousing/Planning/FileDownLoad,1594,en.pdf look at paragraph 3......

again, i am agreeing with your opinion that the way youve outlined is the way it should be, im just stating the fact that it is currently not the case.....
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Re: Part L and Planning Permission

Postby wearnicehats » Tue Jul 03, 2007 6:34 pm

henno wrote:Assuming we are talking about an individual dwelling here, then a planning application cannot be refused if it does not comply with building regulations. There is currently no statutory onus on a designer of a dwelling to have planning drawings comply with building regulations........ I can give you numerous examples of permissions that have been given where the design did not meet part M.....i am not stating that this is acceptable, in my opinion its not, however that is whats happening.....

it is the onus of the designer, contractor, client and ultimately, certifier during the construction process, to ensure that the construction meets the building regs,...
regarding BER, this obviously can achieve higher grades by doing a preliminary cert and offering advise on how to improve after... but to suggest that this should be done (under the current planning system) before planning is even granted is putting the cart so far in front of the horse that he'd need a taxi to get back to it.....

can you give me an example where the planning authority requested detailed construction drawings prior to granting of permission for a dwelling in order to assess its compliance with building regulations???

most councils send out a leaflet AFTER final grant setting out the Buildign Control System... see the kildare one here : http://www.environ.ie/en/Publications/DevelopmentandHousing/Planning/FileDownLoad,1594,en.pdf look at paragraph 3......

again, i am agreeing with your opinion that the way youve outlined is the way it should be, im just stating the fact that it is currently not the case.....


Section 15 of the Dublin Development Plan clearly states all the items that a dwelling must adhere to for permitted development including:

Energy Efficiency: Layout and dwelling design
must conform to the highest possible standards
of energy efficiency and as many dwellings as
possible must have access to sunlight and make
use of passive solar design. Where possible and
practicable, energy-saving and energy generating
technologies such as roof top solar panels
should be incorporated at the design stage.

and

The Planning Authority considers that all
buildings should receive adequate daylight and
sunlight. Careful design of residential buildings,
where the amount of incoming light is important,
can ensure that sufficient sunlight can enter
habitable rooms to provide comfort and also
reduce the need for artificial lighting.

DCC's version of the standard Planning Application form states:

ADDITIONAL INFORMATION:

It should be noted that because each planning authority has its own development plan, which sets out local development policies and objectives for its own area it is necessary for Dublin City Council to require supplementary information (i.e. other than mandatory information) in order to determine whether the application conforms with the development plan.
While failure to supply the supplementary information will not invalidate your planning application, it may delay the decision-making process or lead to a refusal of permission. In case of doubt, applicants should contact Dublin City Council Planning Department to determine what local policies and objectives would apply to the development proposed and whether additional information is required.

SO

they are quite within their remit to ask you to explain anything that they might think does not fall within the development plan's guidelines

You don't need to submit construction drawings - you do need to know how a building goes together, how u-values work and how the extent of glazing and building orientation can effect energy consumption. If you don't know the basics you have no place submitting(edit) a planning application on behalf of anyone. Incidentally, on larger schemes, fire officers ask for construction drawings long before a building gets to site.
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Re: Part L and Planning Permission

Postby henno » Tue Jul 03, 2007 7:27 pm

yes, i know about fire officers, thats why i started my post with "Assuming we are talking about an individual dwelling here"........ plus, every council has that addendum regarding 'additional information' and as you can see its not a statory requirement.....

while what youve posted is a sign of a good development plan it doesnt do anything but pay lip service to energy conservation. again i will state that "There is currently no statutory onus on a designer of a dwelling to have planning drawings comply with building regulations"........ you surey know that as well as i..... and i think we are both in agreement that that is not an optimum system......

to bring this back to the initial point about preliminary BER cerrtification being requested as part of a planning application; a few points:
1. a preliminary BER cert needs as much detailed input as a final cert, the only difference is the point at which it is done on the project... if youve done the course you will know that unknown information automatically defaults to the worst value, so if you dont know the make up of an element the the worst value is assumed......
2. thus in order for a preliminary cert to be done the assessor needs to know all the following, and more... fully dimensioned plans, all wall constructions, all floor constructions, all roof constructions, all plumbing details, valves, boiler type, cylinder, thermostat nos and locations, space heating type, water heating type, ventilation type, flue type and nos, window and door construction, pumps fans lights etc etc etc...... the list goes on...
3. the assessor needs construction drawings to prepare a prelim BER and if its needed as part of a planning application, then construction drawings would be needed at that stage.......

show me the paragraph in the planning act that states planning drawings need to comply to building regulations.....

my final points are then ones ive stated already...
councils will not request BER certification on planning drawings.... they can insist on better design to maximise passive gains (god, if only they would) .......
BER certification would not nor should not be done on planning drawings.....
the only way councils can enforce better standards of Part L is to have much more man power on 'building control' watch...... thats what its for... there is a statutory system already in place to do what you would like, but in most cases the LAs do not have the resources to enforce it.......
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Re: Part L and Planning Permission

Postby wearnicehats » Tue Jul 03, 2007 8:18 pm

[quote="henno"]

2. thus in order for a preliminary cert to be done the assessor needs to know all the following, and more... fully dimensioned plans, all wall constructions, all floor constructions, all roof constructions, all plumbing details, valves, boiler type, cylinder, thermostat nos and locations, space heating type, water heating type, ventilation type, flue type and nos, window and door construction, pumps fans lights etc etc etc...... the list goes on...
QUOTE]

the sooner it happens, the better. And it will. soon
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BER certs required for new dwellings

Postby bertrainer » Tue Jul 03, 2007 10:36 pm

The National Development Plan states that the local authorities must insist on a BER cert being submitted as part of the planning application prior to granting planning permission. Some of the planning authorities have enforced this already and it is expected that the remaineder will follow suit over the course of the next few months. By law, every new dwelling applying for planning permission from 1/1/07 must have a BER.

The results section of the SEI doftware which is known as the DEAP (Dwelling Energy Assessment Procedure) shows confomity under overall and elemental heat loss methods. It also shows the maximum permitted carbon dioxide limit and the actual carbon dioxide emissions for the dwelling.

Under Technical Guidance Document (TGD) L to the Building Regulations 2005, DEAP is the method used to show that an acceptable CO2 emission rate has been achieved for a dwelling to comply with Regulation L2(a). TGD L Section 1.1 requires that the CDER shall not exceed the MPCDER.

DEAP can also be used to show compliance with Regulation L2(b), through use of either the Overall Heat Loss or Elemental Heat Loss method from TGD L Sections 1.2.2 and 1.2.3.

However, DEAP cannot be directly applied to show conformity with other provisions for dwellings in TGD L, including thermal bridging (1.2.4), air infiltration (1.2.5), heating controls (1.3) and insulation of plumbing and ducting services (1.4). Please refer to TGD L for further guidance on other such requirements.

Energy Experts deliver the BER Building Energy Rating assessors 5 day training course which is recognised by FETAC & Sustainable Energy Ireland. If you require any further infomation on BER Assessor training or DEAP, please visit us at http://www.energyexperts.ie
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Re: BER certs required for new dwellings

Postby henno » Wed Jul 04, 2007 10:03 am

bertrainer wrote:The National Development Plan states that the local authorities must insist on a BER cert being submitted as part of the planning application prior to granting planning permission. Some of the planning authorities have enforced this already and it is expected that the remaineder will follow suit over the course of the next few months.


bertrainer,
perhaps you can clear something up for me, because your statement above has thrown up some questions
1. can you show me the section in the NDP that says LA must insist on a BER cert as part of the planning application.. all i can find after ploughing throught it is
"Building
Building activity has environmental impacts and policies are in place to mitigate and alleviate these
including the building regulations and guidelines on residential density. More broadly, housing interventions
are aimed at improving living environments particularly through social inclusion, regeneration and estate
management issues.
The energy efficiency of building will be promoted through implementation of the EU Energy Performance
of Buildings Directive (EPBD) for existing and new housing and all other habitable buildings. Compliance
with the enhanced performance standards over time of the building regulations and other regulations
covering energy-using installations and equipment will lead to improved energy efficiency of additions to
the building stock and major renovations"


2.
bertrainer wrote:By law, every new dwelling applying for planning permission from 1/1/07 must have a BER.
i think you are slightly wrong with this statement. from what ive been lead to believe it should read 'From 1 January 2007, new dwellings that applied for planning permission on or after this date require a BER when they are offered for sale or rent'...... you can see here that a final BER cert is needed at point of sale or rent, a preliminary BER can be done before hand, but as you can see from my post above, the information needed to produce an accurate BER is very detailed and would not be available at planning stage.

i am not trying to argue against you here, or say you are wrong, i just need things cleared up specifically for me, as what you have stated above would effect my day to day professional job greatly........ i have completed the BER training course and at no point was it made clear that a BER cert is required (statutorily or otherwise) at planning application stage. On the contrary, it was made very clear that a BER could not be done with planning drawings as they would be in no way detailed enough to complete one.....
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Re: BER certs required for new dwellings

Postby wearnicehats » Wed Jul 04, 2007 1:22 pm

henno wrote:bertrainer,
perhaps you can clear something up for me, because your statement above has thrown up some questions
1. can you show me the section in the NDP that says LA must insist on a BER cert as part of the planning application.. all i can find after ploughing throught it is
"Building
Building activity has environmental impacts and policies are in place to mitigate and alleviate these
including the building regulations and guidelines on residential density. More broadly, housing interventions
are aimed at improving living environments particularly through social inclusion, regeneration and estate
management issues.
The energy efficiency of building will be promoted through implementation of the EU Energy Performance
of Buildings Directive (EPBD) for existing and new housing and all other habitable buildings. Compliance
with the enhanced performance standards over time of the building regulations and other regulations
covering energy-using installations and equipment will lead to improved energy efficiency of additions to
the building stock and major renovations"


2. i think you are slightly wrong with this statement. from what ive been lead to believe it should read 'From 1 January 2007, new dwellings that applied for planning permission on or after this date require a BER when they are offered for sale or rent'...... you can see here that a final BER cert is needed at point of sale or rent, a preliminary BER can be done before hand, but as you can see from my post above, the information needed to produce an accurate BER is very detailed and would not be available at planning stage.

i am not trying to argue against you here, or say you are wrong, i just need things cleared up specifically for me, as what you have stated above would effect my day to day professional job greatly........ i have completed the BER training course and at no point was it made clear that a BER cert is required (statutorily or otherwise) at planning application stage. On the contrary, it was made very clear that a BER could not be done with planning drawings as they would be in no way detailed enough to complete one.....



by the time you've stopped banging on about it you could have done a generic BER, included it with a standard specification, acheived a C rating and stated that "all possible avenues will be explored to improve this rating" I'll say it again - know your uvalues, orientation, glass percentages, boiler efficiency and any bloody idiot can get a C rating.
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Re: Part L and Planning Permission

Postby henno » Wed Jul 04, 2007 2:19 pm

my point exactly, what use is a generic BER..... this would end up being a purely bureaucratic exercise with no practical meaning in the end... i would be totally against any such waste of time and effort......

it would be an affront to the theory and spirit of the BER and the EPBD... to see such a futile and worthless exercise being done with it....
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Re: Part L and Planning Permission

Postby wearnicehats » Wed Jul 04, 2007 2:40 pm

henno wrote:my point exactly, what use is a generic BER..... this would end up being a purely bureaucratic exercise with no practical meaning in the end... i would be totally against any such waste of time and effort......

it would be an affront to the theory and spirit of the BER and the EPBD... to see such a futile and worthless exercise being done with it....


your point, as I see it, is to try and find a reason not to do it

Part L will be revised next year and will require a 40% increase on current reductions (some say it will be more like 60%). This means that you will need a B2, possibly B1 rating. So B3 and C (possibly B2) ratings will disappear and will take the knowledge of 90% of the "house plans book" nixer applicants with it. The planning regulations will change accordingly in order to avoid thousands of abortive applications that quite clearly will not have a hope in hell of meeting the regs. Professionals need to wake up and aquaint themselves with the reality of the situation not bury their heads in a "show me where it says so" mentality. It will become an integral part of their duty of care obligations to clients.
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Re: Part L and Planning Permission

Postby Davids » Wed Jul 04, 2007 3:10 pm

Well I think henno has spoken alot of sense about this topic and my understanding of the situation concurs with his.
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Re: Part L and Planning Permission

Postby henno » Wed Jul 04, 2007 3:28 pm

wearnicehats,

you should take from my posts that i am completely in agreement with your enthusiasm for this. It will make my life a hell of a lot easier in certification of houses.. im sick to death in clients coming in with crap planning drawings for 3000 sq ft houses and saying they are going 'direct labour'.... a receipie for disaster....

i would be delighted if the planning system was tightened up to squeeze out the nixer element and to make technical matters more pertinent during the planning stage......

all i am asking for is someone (currently its either you of bertrainer) to show me where its states that this is going to happen so i can bring it to my employer and make the necessary arrangements... i though this forum was supposed to be a information sharing forum.....

ive given my reasons why i think whats proposed wouldnt work under the current system, if the system is to change then great... but i havent heard of any movement towards the system you are describing.... can you please direct me to the source of your information....
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Re: Part L and Planning Permission

Postby bertrainer » Wed Jul 04, 2007 6:38 pm

Henno,

I will source the relevant framework that requires the local county councils to insist on this and will post same in the coming days.

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Re: Part L and Planning Permission

Postby henno » Wed Jul 04, 2007 10:15 pm

thank you bertrainer....
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Re: Part L and Planning Permission

Postby pico » Wed Apr 16, 2008 12:00 pm

bertrainer wrote:Henno,

I will source the relevant framework that requires the local county councils to insist on this and will post same in the coming days.

bertrainer


Was this issue ever resolved?
BER Trainer, did you ever find any material to support the assertation that a BER is required to accompany a planning application?
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